Author Topic: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.  (Read 20881 times)

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JTCoyoté

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"REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« on: March 02, 2009, 01:41:28 pm »
"Take care of my little boy. If the country should be saved
I may make him a splendid fortune. But if this country
should be lost, and I should perish, he will have nothing
but the proud recollection that he is the son of a man
who died for his country."
~Col. William Barrett Travis


Written March 3, 1836, to David Ayers, (Alex's Ancestor), who was caring for Col. Travis' son Charles Edward, while he was serving at the Alamo.


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Offline KoWBoY

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 01:44:47 pm »
REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!
Placement is Key.
Violence Begets Compliance.
Ignorance is Temporary. Stupid is Forever.
I HUNT! Because the voices in my head tell me to.
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JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 12:40:48 am »
The significance of remembering the Alamo, aside from the 173rd anniversary of the self directed sacrifice against tyranny that took place there, it is a good time to look at the dramatization and slight twisting of history depicted in the most recent movie version of the Alamo with Dennis Quaid and Billy Bob Thornton.

As Alex pointed out on the show today, 1/3 of the signers of the Texas Declaration of Independence were of Mexican lineage, and 1/3 of the soldiers killed at the Alamo, as well as at least 1/3 of the entire Army and Militia of Texas, and much more than 1/3 the general population of Texas, were of Mexican descent... in other words, the issue of race did not exist. Everyone, almost to a man was unified around one goal, defeating the tyrant of Mexico, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, and gaining Texas Independence!

JTCoyoté

"The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the sword, if
the fort is taken -- I have answered the demand with
a cannon shot, & our flag still waves proudly from the
walls -- I shall never surrender or retreat ...
Victory or Death.
~William Barret Travis,
Lt. Col. Comdt., Alamo-Bejar,
Feby. 24th, 1836
 

Offline thought_criminal

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 12:22:35 pm »
  I'm not much of a history buff... But from what I understand about the Alamo... It's an inspirational story even in this day and age.
  Kinda like loosing a game well.   
  Sure you didn't win, but ultimately you didn't loose either.
  It's like forcing a checkmate on you - into a draw.

  Sometimes, all you have left is to go down with the ship with style and integrity.
"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to Question Authority." - Benjamin Franklin

Offline rarecandor

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 12:30:50 pm »
  I'm not much of a history buff... But from what I understand about the Alamo... It's an inspirational story even in this day and age.
  Kinda like loosing a game well.   
  Sure you didn't win, but ultimately you didn't loose either.
  It's like forcing a checkmate on you - into a draw.

  Sometimes, all you have left is to go down with the ship with style and integrity.

From what I understand of the story, it was a bit more like sacrificing your Queen to win the game. But I only know the untruth, truth. Maybe JT can shed some light on it. Over all though, definitely inspirational.

Offline DarkKnightNomeD

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 12:50:06 pm »
what was this deal with, someone finding some "alamonian" diary, of someone who survived the alamo with like 5 to 10 others, sent to mexico as prisoner's/slave's

Even my, Biology Teach, said, they found that same diary or letters, 8 years ago, Thrown out

and someone watch them, then they went looking through the Dumpster which this diary came from

i think it took place in Lubbock, TX

Is there any truth, or nonsense to this

JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 01:15:54 pm »
From what I understand of the story, it was a bit more like sacrificing your Queen to win the game. But I only know the untruth, truth. Maybe JT can shed some light on it. Over all though, definitely inspirational.

Yes RC, The Chess metaphor is the right one here... this is exactly what happened.

what was this deal with, someone finding some "alamonian" diary, of someone who survived the alamo with like 5 to 10 others, sent to mexico as prisoner's/slave's

Even my, Biology Teach, said, they found that same diary or letters, 8 years ago, Thrown out

and someone watch them, then they went looking through the Dumpster which this diary came from

i think it took place in Lubbock, TX

Is there any truth, or nonsense to this

As to the diary, there are two that receive press... one by a Mexican soldier under Santa Anna named Lt. Col. Jose Enrique de la Peña who challenges aspects of the popular story... Some Alamo experts challenge the diary, claiming it to be a hoax. Here is an article about it...

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/alamo/diary.htm

The second diary is by a 13 year old girl, Lucinda Lawrence, living is San Antonio at the time... it was made into a book called "Line in the Sand", designed more for the younger reader, yet well documented.

Three excellent books on this subject, are a trilogy authored by the Texas Historian and Texas Revolution and Alamo expert, Dr. Archie P. McDonald titled: 

"The Trail to San Jacinto", [ ISBN 0896410749 (0-89641-074-9) ]
"War With Mexico", [ ISBN 0882730894 (0-88273-089-4) ] and last but not least,
"William Barrett Travis: A Biography" [ ISBN 0890156565 (0-89015-656-5) ]

I would love it if Alex could get Dr. McDonald on the show.

JTCoyoté

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Offline rarecandor

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 01:30:50 pm »
Indeed. If you read the article it becomes quite clear.

First, the document can be verified for it's age. 2nd, nobody in their right mind would buy it for that amount if it wasn't. 3rd, That Davy Crockett died at the gates is "legend", based on what?

Just some obtuse scholars can't warp their minds beyond what they have already been taught and thought to be true.

I may be wrong but in the end, either way, he died fighting for the Alamo and is still a hero.


JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 03:37:33 pm »
 When it comes to the Alamo, people tend to focus on the already famous names who fought and died there. Davy Crockett, and Jim Bowie being the most prominent. These two men had over 50 years of name and fame between them by the time of the Battle of the Alamo.

 The 1960 movie The Alamo starring John Wayne, Lawrence Harvey, and Richard Widmark, illustrates pretty accurately the play of personalities, the tremendous egos that were involved. One of these, was a tall, fiery, auburn blonde haired, brilliant blue eyed, well educated Texas cavalry officer, little known outside of Texas, named William Barrett Travis. At 26 years of age, he was half the age of many of the men in his Alamo command. Disliked by some yet repected by all he was resolute in his duty.

Outnumbered 25 to 1, using his well-known eloquence, piercing personality, and patriotic fervor, Travis galvanized together, hard drinking, hard fighting, Tennessee Mountain boys, and local Texas frontiersmen, farmers, and ranchers, into a 146 man fighting force that held out against Santa Anna and more than 4000 battle hardened Mexican troops, artillery, and cavalry, for 13 days in an old Spanish Mission.

Travis was a single parent, who had much to live for, yet, he had prepared for the lives of his children, his daughter Suzanne was with her mother in Alabama, and his son Charles with him in Texas, for any eventuality. He knew, that for him and his son, as well as the rest of Texas, life under Santa Anna and his brutal form of tyranny would be like no life at all. In the movie Lawrence Harvey plays the part of Travis fairly accurately, though the rigidity, would have been tempered a bit with a steel eyed, right side half smile, and a quick wink...

Travis, unlike Crockett or Bowie... was not and only became so, at least in Texas, for this one act of selfless patriotic heroism... there is much more to the story however, it is even more interesting and complex than the legends and fallacies that have grown up around him... Archie MacDonald's biography on Travis, listed in my previous post, does the research and gets to the meat of the man in a very real, though somewhat rambling way... The stories McDonald relates are backed with facts that are documented in footnote after footnote into a broad bibliography, detailed and indexed.

March 3, today, is the anniversary of the letter I started this thread with to Alex's ancestor, David Ayers...

--Oldyoti

“In the beginning of a change the Patriot is a scarce man,
and brave, and hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds,
the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."

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Offline rarecandor

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 03:42:38 pm »
That is very interesting. I will need to locate the book. It sounds like very interesting reading.

JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 01:09:35 am »
That is very interesting. I will need to locate the book. It sounds like very interesting reading.

It is fairly easy to find on Amazon... it is on some books on-line sites but the ones I found are membership only.

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and are always ready to guard and defend it."

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Offline rarecandor

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 01:20:01 am »
Would it be this one?

The Republic of Texas by Archie M. MacDonald (Paperback - Jun 1981)
Buy new: $10.95

If so, I may have to pump up my paypal account. It dribbling at present.

Offline KoWBoY

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 01:27:48 am »
Hey JT,  Thanks for the information. This is why I read forum posts, sometimes they teach you something. I will have to find those books. I like to read about history that really happened and the people involved. Not the popular version that I got fed in school. 
Placement is Key.
Violence Begets Compliance.
Ignorance is Temporary. Stupid is Forever.
I HUNT! Because the voices in my head tell me to.
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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 03:04:32 am »
Would it be this one?

The Republic of Texas by Archie M. MacDonald (Paperback - Jun 1981)
Buy new: $10.95

If so, I may have to pump up my paypal account. It dribbling at present.

That is one of his books, over the years he has written 20 of them last I checked.  They all deal with Texas in some way or another... his latest is kind of interesting, its title:

"A Cookbook: Helpful Cooking Hints for Househusbands of Uppity Women"...  ;D
 
I wonder what that's all about ...(chuckle)...

Here is a link where you can see, and purchase all of his books... Amazon has a good selection as well...

http://www.bookfinder.com/author/archie-p-mcdonald/

I listed all of the titles of McDonald's Mexican War/Alamo trilogy, which deals with the Texas Mexican War, the battles, the chronology and the people in my post here earlier.  The ISBN numbers are listed there as well... if you look around you can find good used copies from some of the online booksellers that have really good prices.

Hey JT,  Thanks for the information. This is why I read forum posts, sometimes they teach you something. I will have to find those books. I like to read about history that really happened and the people involved. Not the popular version that I got fed in school.  

There are many good historical texts out there, and when researching any individual or event time line... pay attention to the footnotes and check the bibliography then google the references often... As you become more familiar and dig deeper, some references may require a library search on some subjects especially if you are breaking in extending your knowledge into areas of new ground.

--Oldyoti

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into an excuse for enhancing power in itself."

~John Adams

Offline rarecandor

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 07:11:39 am »
"Remember the Alamo" sure seems a suitable title now and hopefully always will. Nice piece of history. I wonder if this is where the "Do or die" saying comes from.

JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2009, 12:15:13 am »
From the time Santa Anna's advance troops reached the Medina River across from the Alamo on the evening of 22 February, the men within the mission walls busied themselves erecting and strengthening earthworks, to support artillery and seal any breaches in the walls in so doing.  They had 14 cannon of various poundage within the walls and plenty of powder. The river swollen from the rains, kept Santa Anna's troops busy slowly moving themselves, their armaments, and provisions across the Medina. By the afternoon of the 23rd however, once in position, the first cannonade began, and would continue with sporadic breaks throughout the remainder of the siege.

On the 24th, one-day into this battle that has earned more enduring fame for the defeated than any other battle in history, comes Travis' letter of appeal. In itself it needs no commentary or any embellishment in its level of inspiration, patriotic zeal, and the sense of urgency it contains.

"Commandancy of the Alamo-
Bejar, Feby. 24th, 1836

To the people of Texas & all Americans in
the world --

Fellow citizens & compatriots --

I am besieged, by a thousand or more of the
Mexicans under Santa Anna -- I have sus-
tained a continual Bombardment & cannonade
for 24 hours & have not lost a man -- The
enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the
sword, if the fort is taken -- I have answered
the demand with a cannon shot, & our flag still
waves proudly from the walls -- I shall never
surrender or retreat. Then, I call on you in the
name of liberty, of patriotism & everything
dear to the American character, to come to our
aid, with all dispatch -- The enemy is receiv-
ing reinforcements daily & will no doubt
increase to three or four thousand in four or
five days. If this call is neglected I am deter-
mined to sustain myself as long as possible &
die like a soldier who never forgets what is due
to his own honor & that of his country -- VIC-
TORY OR DEATH.

 William Barrett Travis,
 Lt. Col. Comdt.

P.S. The Lord is on our side -- when the
enemy appeared in sight we had not three
bushels of corn -- We have since found in de-
serted houses 80 or 90 bushels and got into the
walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.

Travis"


From the time of the arrival advance force until the main Mexican contingent including Santa Anna arrived at the Alamo on the afternoon of the 4th of March, the Mexican cannons shelled the old Mission Fort, not in steady barrage, just the steady, flurry here and a shot or two there, style of shelling, designed to keep everyone within the walls, anxious and sleepless as long as possible. The defenders were saving powder and only took sure shots when presented the opportunity. It was at the tyrants arrival and demand for the Fort's surrender that Travis ordered the famous shot from the 18 pound cannon in answer to Santa Anna's demand. The message was clear.

Travis' call for reinforcements brought an arrival in the dark of the morning of February 3rd, from Gonzalez... 32 men which raised the number inside the walls to 183, but by the evening of the 4th it was pretty obvious to Travis, that if Col. Fannin and his army did not arrive by noon on the the next day, they would arrive too late.

It was on the evening of March 5th, 173 years ago, that the famous "line in the sand" event took place, according to Susannah Dickinson, the wife of artillery Captain Almeron Dickinson, and one of the surviving women who remained with their husbands. All but one man crossed the line to stay. That evening, at approximately 10:00pm, Louis Rose, with his possibles bag, jumped from the walls and disappeared into the night, to resurface some months after the battle, and corroborate Mrs. Dickinson's account of what happened in the days leading up to the final siege.

--Oldyoti

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Offline Neco

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2009, 12:22:52 am »
One of my relatives has a birthday on the fall of the Alamo.  :-)

Maybe they are David Crockett redux.   ;)
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Offline KoWBoY

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 12:45:59 am »
Louis Rose was referred to as "Moses" because of his age of 51. He was also called the "Coward of the Alamo" a title he even called himself. 
http://jayssouth.com/texas/alamo/rose/

I would say living with being called a coward would be tough. Of course if I have it right he had seen his share of war and could probably come to terms with it as he was a decorated soldier in the French military. Would be a hard thing to do either way. Stay and get killed or leave and be labeled a coward. In some ways they both would be about the same.
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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 10:53:08 am »
Louis Rose was referred to as "Moses" because of his age of 51. He was also called the "Coward of the Alamo" a title he even called himself.  
http://jayssouth.com/texas/alamo/rose/

I would say living with being called a coward would be tough. Of course if I have it right he had seen his share of war and could probably come to terms with it as he was a decorated soldier in the French military. Would be a hard thing to do either way. Stay and get killed or leave and be labeled a coward. In some ways they both would be about the same.


Yes, Louis Rose was quite a character, he was the oldest man there, he and Davy Crockett who was 50 at the time, were the oldest. Yet all we know about that event, comes mostly from Rose and Mrs. Dickinson. They were among the only ones who survived that were there to experience the character of each one of the principals and other participants.

Most of the legend, and all of the lies are based on conjecture by the enemy, and others after the fact. Although written years later, de la Pena in his diary account, pointed out the gallantry of the defenders. He makes particular mention of the courage of the commander who fought fearlessly in the face of fire.

At 5 AM on the morning of Sunday, March 6, 1836 the main attack began. The first wave of Mexican attackers ran to the walls with men in the front carrying ladders so troops could scale the walls of the Fort. The second wave was of heavily armed troops, most carrying short muskets with bayonet and sword. The first two waves were successfully repelled by the defenders, inflicting heavy casualties to the Mexican force.  The third wave, a much larger group in a coordinated attack from all sides, finally breached the fortification at the north wall, again at great loss of life.

Travis was leading the defense on the north wall. His long time friend, and freed slave Joe was with him, keeping Travis' double barrel shotgun, and his pistols reloaded. Joe, being a black man was seen as a slave and also survived the battle. It was during the third wave that Travis took a bullet in his upper forehead, while repelling attackers with his sword. When the bullet struck he tumbled back and landed in sitting position leaning up against the wheel of one of the Canon he had been directing, there he was killed by the sword of Mexican General Mora, who Travis killed that same instant with a single upward thrust under the general's brisket... and expired still clasping his sword. The fighting continued inside the walls where all 183 of the defending combatants were ultimately killed. At a cost to Santa Anna of close to 1600 Mexican soldiers dead or wounded.

De la Pena, in his diary, describes this image, intimating that none of the other soldiers would touch Travis' body with their bayonets, swords, or arms, out of respect for his gallantry and fearlessness. Of all of the aspects of this battle, the scene of Travis sitting next to a cannon clutching his sword in death, garnered respect like none other throughout the remainder of the fight for Texas independence. It was also the source for much rumor fallacy.

There are many who say that Santa Anna suffered light casualties, less than 500 killed and wounded at the Alamo... yet the battle to breach the walls lasted well over an hour. Travis' man, Joe and Mrs. Dickinson could not believe the carnage outside the walls, they estimated the stacks of bodies piled at the walls around the fort to be at least 1200 dead, and many hundreds wounded.

Three weeks later, pulling off a successful running skirmish campaign against Fannin's army, ending in the Goliad Massacre of 350 prisoners, including Fannin himself, Santa Anna then engaged Houston at San Jacinto, 6 weeks after the Alamo. On April 21st, 1836, Santa Anna, surrounded by 800 mounted Texains, surrendered his Army there after the battle. Living and dead, Santa Anna had less than 1200 men left. Okay... so what happened to the other 2500+ troops...?

On that early morning of March 6th at the Mission, Santa Anna's force was close to 4000 men by his own records. If you do the math, no matter how the revisionists wish to spin it, the facts, the numbers, tell the tale... the defenders at the Alamo put a big dent in Santa Anna's ability to wage the war, by destroying at least 1/3 of his army. The siege at the Alamo was a resounding Victory for Texas!

The battle waged from 5:00am to about 6:35am, the morning of Sunday, March 6, 1836... 173 years ago. For every Texas Patriot who died that morning, he took 8 Mexican soldiers out with him, and wounded several more...

As an aside... Sam Houston and his army, Jim Fannin and his Army, and Stephen F. Austin, were all somewhere else on that day. William Barrett Travis, his friend Joe, as well as the rest of the defenders of the Alamo, were all FREEMEN, fighting for texas and were untarnished by the defacto slavery of the Masonic Order.

JTCoyoté

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Offline KoWBoY

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 11:18:42 am »
Louis Rose may have been called a coward but being a witness after the fact probably helped with a more accurate account of the events that unfolded. The fact he even labeled himself the coward of the Alamo gives it more credibility in a way.

I would bet Travis and Joe probably had De la Pena worried quite a bit before Travis fell and after.  It would have to have some psychological effect on someone to see a man dead still clutching his sword as if in battle. There of course would be a scientific explanation but in those days Travis probably scared the hell out of De la Pena and his forces. 
Placement is Key.
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Ignorance is Temporary. Stupid is Forever.
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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2009, 11:55:07 am »
Louis Rose may have been called a coward but being a witness after the fact probably helped with a more accurate account of the events that unfolded. The fact he even labeled himself the coward of the Alamo gives it more credibility in a way.

I would bet Travis and Joe probably had De la Pena worried quite a bit before Travis fell and after.  It would have to have some psychological effect on someone to see a man dead still clutching his sword as if in battle. There of course would be a scientific explanation but in those days Travis probably scared the hell out of De la Pena and his forces.  

Rose and all others there at "the line in the sand", were given the opportunity to leave or stay honorably, he was the only one who chose to go... so the term coward actually does not apply to Louis Rose... his act was not cowardice, it was his choice as a free man.

Anyone who has been in pitched battle, will tell you that you don't notice cowardice so much, what you are concentrating on is that which stands against you, your total attention is focused upon the battle, and the battle is between the brave on both sides, so bravery is always noticed and recalled. In any case here is a painting, after the fact, of the commander of the Alamo.


                                           "I am determined to sustain myself as long as
                                                 possible & die like a soldier who never forgets
                                                what is due to his own honor & that of his country --
                                               VICTORY OR DEATH."


                                                 William Barrett Travis,
                                                Lt. Col. Comdt.


JTCoyoté

Offline Weasel

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2009, 08:27:08 am »
Thanks for the detailed story JTCoyote!

We visited the Alamo when we lived outside of San Antonio and we're humbled at the courage these men displayed in the name of freedom.  We were then disgusted to see a Pizza Hut and other crap stores surrounding a sacred spot.

This is a story that should inspire us to keep up the good fight against evil and tyranny.
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Offline KoWBoY

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2009, 08:35:36 pm »
Yes Thank You JT.
Placement is Key.
Violence Begets Compliance.
Ignorance is Temporary. Stupid is Forever.
I HUNT! Because the voices in my head tell me to.
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php

Offline KoWBoY

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2009, 12:46:53 am »
"Rose and all others there at "the line in the sand", were given the opportunity to leave or stay honorably, so the term coward actually does not apply to Louis Rose... his act was not cowardice."

I agree.  The fact he even referred to himself as a coward gave more credibility to his account of the actions that took place. I did not mean he was a coward. Kind of like he was saying "Call me a coward if you want. I know what happened I was there you were not." Thanks again for the information.


DawnIsMyGoddess, you are not raining on anything here. Any and all information on historical figures is relevant to understanding the facts of the events they took part in. As you said doesn't make them evil. Someday people may look back on some of us and say they were members of the NRA and websites such as PrisonPlanet. Not that we are dark, evil people; we are just doing what we can to make things right for the future. Thank you for your information as well.
Placement is Key.
Violence Begets Compliance.
Ignorance is Temporary. Stupid is Forever.
I HUNT! Because the voices in my head tell me to.
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php

Offline Sapient

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2009, 02:40:47 pm »
I grew up in the 50's with Davy Crockett and The Alamo.
All these guys were my heroes.   I even had a coonskin hat.

Was just watching some old inspirational videos:

Fess Parker Sings Davy Crockett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nOF4cq6qNc


The Alamo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5roEuhqn3o&feature=related

JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2009, 04:53:38 am »
I had forgotten how good the 2004 Alamo movie is, thanks for the reminder and the trailer... I sat down and watched it again. Overall, it is okay, but it is a movie, and not a documentary account... and must be seen as such.

It is much better at capturing the feeling of the time, the mix of cultures, and the urgency of the events, than any that came before it... Many of the events as depicted are combined and then "metaphored" however, which makes for good cinema but tends to create new myths as well.   Other separate events, separated in time as well as distance, are combined.  They on the other hand at least hold fairly true to the accounts of history, even in combination. The subject of race in the movie, has a late 20th century stigma attached to it though, something that wasn't fretted over, or even on any of their minds much... with this mixed race bunch-a-misfit folks, which they all were...

Now Nickelodeon and the History Channel... they intimated that the Texians, lied about the events, the number of men involved and the number of Mexican dead, The Nick voice over on the Alamo special they did was a Mexican accented young woman describing the Texans and Tejano's as a bunch of rabble fighting for slavery, and that Mexico was just preserving their country...
 
The HC disavowed Ruiz's accounting of the Mexican dead, by digging up and inspecting a few dozen grave sites, those that haven't been bulldozed by construction over the centuries. Heck the Alamo is in the heart of Downtown San Antonio. But undaunted, the HC determined that only a few hundred died. Yet Ruiz explains that many hundreds were swept away in the river by the heavy rains that followed the battle, and there was not enough high ground to bury them all, so hundreds more were shallowly entered in the swamps south-east of the mission... In any case, both channels are on my sh!t list for sure.

Travis is portrayed in the movie as a kid... which he was not, in a world where you were considered "old as Moses" at 50, he was young middle age. He respected his elders though, and his superiors, but he wasn't in the least bit afraid of them... he wasn't a skinny kid, he was over 6 foot, and farm raised, if that is any help... In the movie they use part of Joe's account, where he saved himself by saying he was a slave, even though he was not, but they didn't use his account of Travis' death, which is well documented, even by the Mexican soldiers, and is as well documented as Bowie's and much more so than Crockett's...

The New Alamo movie is a good accounting though, overall, and worth the watch.
  

This sketch is the view of the Alamo Complex at the time of the March 1836 Battle, looking North. The large rectangular area of the complex is 154 yards long and 54 yards wide. Records show that the fort had 14 large cannon, 6 to 18 pounders, and 7 smaller cannon and swivel guns of 2 to 4 pounds.  The Church is the structure without a roof on the right. The main thrust of the March 6th attack came against the North wall which was the weakest point, yet it was the heaviest defended wall of the fort. This was where Travis and his men fought.


A sketch of the West facade of the Alamo Church as it appeared on March 6, 1836 during the Battle of The Alamo. The Southeast Battlement is seen to the right. This was where Crockett and the Tennessee Boys held the wall.


A Sketch of the angled southeast battlement, constructed of material from the low wall that connected the convent to the south barracks. It ran from the southwest corner of the Church to the east wall of the barracks. It included eight-foot high logs, earthworks, bristling with spikes made of oak, surrounded by oak briers to stop a frontal attack, and it was all guarded by a 12 pounder supplied with plenty of canister and grape shot.


Here, the 1836 Alamo is shown in a 3-D overlay of modern San Antonio looking toward the East-North-East.

Had Fannin taken just 150 men with powder, provisions, and arms, from his 500 to 600 man army hiding out near Gonzales, and sent them along with the volunteers that arrived at the Alamo on the 3rd from Gonzales, Travis would have had 355 men, the minimum number to adequately garrison that fort. It would have been enough men to put a 5 man crew on each cannon, and 1 rifleman and his loader every 8 feet around the entire perimeter wall of the Fort...

If that had been the case, The rate and volume of fire from the fort would have been twice what it was which translates to twice the casualties inflicted on the attackers... They would have never been able to breach the walls under that withering fire. Even had they sent in a 4th wave they would've had to wade through the bodies stacking up at the base of the walls... as it was Santa Anna lost 8 men for every Texan killed... The war might well have been decided then and there, had Fannin been half the commander Travis was...

JTCoyoté

"The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the sword, if
the fort is taken -- I have answered the demand with
a cannon shot, & our flag still waves proudly from the
walls -- I shall never surrender or retreat...
Victory or Death!"

William Barret Travis,
Lt. Col. Comdt., Alamo-Bejar,
Feby. 24th, 1836

JTCoyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2009, 02:07:09 pm »
With regard to the attempts by some to nullify any contribution by any of the people who died in this valiant effort, by using possible Masonic ties, it may be noted in another thread that has been started on the OT board... Mason Thread ... we cannot allow the exploration of historical figures and events to always be turned into a anti-Mason thread.

With that said, in 1828 at the age 18, due to the realization that some of the aspects of becoming a gentleman farmer, were not to his liking and therefore creating dismal prospects, he chose to study law. Many people even today who choose this profession, are urged to join the "porch masons" by joining a lodge. They are told that by joining it will open doors for their advancement in professional careers.

At the age of 19, between June and August 1829, (he turned 20 on August 9th) he fulfilled the minimum requirement for advancement by reaching the third degree, he became a "porch mason." From that point forward there was absolutely no reason for him to continue.

The term Master Mason is a misnomer, no one becomes a master anything in two months, at the age of 19.

The Masonic organizations that are the destructive ones, are the higher order Masonic systems... the porch masons who belong to Masonic lodges are all of lower order, they are little different from those of us who do not belong at all, they are cannon fodder... The term "belong" implies and confers ownership, by the way... The man who commanded the Alamo, was owned by no man or organization, and he owned no man. His greatest dislike with regard to becoming a gentleman farmer, was the institution of slavery.

Before his 21st birthday, he left Alabama for Texas, joined the Texas militia, and almost immediately entered the political and military fray against Mexican rule...

His friend Joe, bought during his "gentleman farmer phase," became his closest friend and constant companion.  Because Joe was the product of the slave system, he knew no other way than to serve his "master." Travis therefore in like manner served Joe, by befriending, caring for, and educating him.  They even had an open ended employer/employee contract in case there was ever any question from the outside. And like Louis Rose who chose not to fight, Joe was always free to go.

The problem with the dark allegation of Masonic ties, is that it subconsciously leads the reader into an area of darkness that casts a shadow over everything that a man does.  Anyone who's studied William Barrett Travis knows that his prime directive was liberty and freedom for all, because that is what he desired for himself. His ties with the Alabama lodge, ceased when his legal credentials were solidified... and there is no record of any further connection with the Masons on any level whatsoever.

Did you perhaps attempt a search for Masonic possibilities regarding the Butcher of Goliad, that feudal lord and master tyrant of Mexico who ordered "Tarleton's Quarter" and torture, for all combatants not killed in battle...?

I refrained from saying anything with regard to this wrinkle in the thread earlier, other than making this remark,"...William Barrett Travis, his friend Joe, as well as the rest of the defenders of the Alamo, were all FREEMEN, and untarnished by the defacto slavery of the Masonic Order." And that statement still holds true.

Will Travis was also raised Southern Baptist... yet attending meetings was not his style. But I am certain that this fact will not distract the primary reason for this thread, which is to debunk the growing revisionist destruction, of the factual and eyewitness accounts of these events. A revisionist campaign that has been underway for years now in mainstream broadcast and cable television, on Nickelodeon, the History Channel, and other places... as well as in Hollywood with the well crafted remake of The Alamo with Dennis Quaid and Billy Bob Thornton that draws heavily on the Mexican de la Pena Diary and also injects contemporary racial stereotypes.

The subject of Masonic ties of the folks involved at the Alamo, has become a nullification tactic of late, very much like labeling the Constitutional 10th Amendment state sovereignty movement, as somehow being secessionist...

My point is this,  it is a documented fact, that Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, was a butcher and a tyrant!  William Travis, and the less than 200 men in his command, each man of his own free will, dealt Santa Anna a just penalty for being the high order historical tyrant and villain that he was, and it came as a result of intense commitment and self-sacrifice on the part of the Alamo defenders. The price tendered, the defenders paid with their LIVES.  

JTCoyoté

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles,
or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man
in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly…
who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy
cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at
the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be
with those cold and timid souls who have never known neither victory nor defeat."

~Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Etoyoc

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 174 years ago this week.
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2010, 11:14:12 am »
This was posted last year on this date. So I dug it out since Alex began today's show by saluting  TEXAS INDEPENDENCE DAY 174 years ago, March 2nd 1836... May the Republic of Texas and the Republic of the United States of America PREVAIL!!!

Eto

Offline JT Coyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 174 years ago this week.
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2010, 01:02:57 pm »
This was posted last year on this date. So I dug it out since Alex began today's show by saluting  TEXAS INDEPENDENCE DAY 174 years ago, March 2nd 1836... May the Republic of Texas and the Republic of the United States of America PREVAIL!!!

Eto

This week is the week. Thanks Bro'...

Thanks for raising this again... We have San Jacinto's 174th on April 21st to look forward to... the day the "globie" Santa Anna got his tush handed to him by Texans, and the Alamo was Avenged!


--Oldyoti

"If the price I must pay for my freedom is
to acknowledge that the government was
granted the power to infringe on them,
then I am not free."

 
~Pol Anderson



Offline JT Coyoté

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"REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 177 years ago... Oct.19th, if you can, Be there.
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2013, 01:05:05 am »
This forum is a library, therefore to be of service, every now and again it's kinda fun to dig through and read the stacks...  BUMP!                                                

The people of Texas and folks from all over the country are descending on San Antonio and the Alamo on Saturday October 19, 2013 to openly celebrate the 2nd Amendment and the right of all free People, each Individual, to be Armed... Bear your long Arms with you when you come, and join in the celebration...

As always, bring your cameras, and keep your eyes open for provocateurs...

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/10/09/call-to-action-join-us-for-historic-open-carry-march-at-the-alamo-on-october-19/

JTCoyoté

"All government without the consent of the
governed is the very definition of slavery."

~Jonathan Swift

Offline JT Coyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 179 years ago this week.
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2015, 03:31:36 am »
Time for the yearly "Bumpola"...

It was 179 years ago on this day that the nightly shellings stopped and in the pre-dawn hours of March 6th 1836, Santa Anna pushed his army, full force against the 183 defenders of the Alamo...

"Remember the Alamo!"

JTCoyoté

"...I am determined to sustain myself as long as
possible & die like a soldier who never forgets
what is due to his own honor & that of his country --
VICTORY OR DEATH."
~William Barrett Travis,
Lt. Col. Comdt. Alamo-Bejar

Offline decemberfellow

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 179 years ago this week.
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2015, 07:34:57 am »
I only hope that the same spirit is alive and well today. Those patriots cared not about the odds,only freedom.  We need that today.
Rev21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Who am I
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Fk6dt_uHo

Offline JT Coyoté

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 179 years ago this week.
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2015, 01:18:20 pm »
I only hope that the same spirit is alive and well today. Those patriots cared not about the odds,only freedom.  We need that today.

The more we point to this spirit of liberty, the more we give others the sight of this adventure in God's righteous eternal plan for humanity, the quicker our path will be righted and our journey will resume...

JTCoyoté

"The attacker must vanquish, the
defender has only to prevail."
~JT

Offline JTCoyote

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2019, 02:52:00 am »
"Take care of my little boy. If the country should be saved
I may make him a splendid fortune. But if this country
should be lost, and I should perish, he will have nothing
but the proud recollection that he is the son of a man
who died for his country."
~Col. William Barrett Travis


Written March 3, 1836, to David Ayers, (Alex's Ancestor), who was caring for Col. Travis' son Charles Edward, while he was serving at the Alamo.


JTCoyoté

"A patriot must always be ready to defend
his country against his government."

~Edward Abbey


This is the 183 anniversary of the battle that began the destruction of the tyrant Santa Anna's Mexican army, and lead to the liberation of Texas from Mexico, creating the Republic of Texas. This thread started 10 years ago contains the facts of the battle and the events that surrounded it. Tomorrow, March 3, 2019, the members and volunteers of Oath Keepers will be locking hands to forge a human wall on the Texas Mexico border in support of the President's declaration of emergency to repel the demographic invasion pouring thru our southern border.

Here's how those who wish to can join in.

Press Release
"Human Wall" Volunteers Rally
on the Texas Border
in Support of President Trump


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

March 1, 2019

Press Contact: media@oathkeepers.org

 
Volunteers form "Human Wall" Protest at Texas Border to Support Trump's Emergency Declaration

Ongoing volunteer border security operation launches at 12pm, Saturday, March 2, 2019, in Eagle Pass, TX. 

Public Support Rally and Press Conference to be Held at 2pm, Sunday, March 3, 2019 in Shelby Park (public park right on Rio Grand) in Eagle Pass, TX.

As reported by Breitbart.com, Oath Keepers, Bikers for Trump, and Latinos for Trump have organized a ?human wall? volunteer border security operation and public rally on the border in Texas this weekend in support of President Trump's Emergency Declaration, and in support of an upcoming Texas legislative border security bill being proposed by Texas State Representative Kyle Biedermann.

The volunteer security operation will start at noon on Saturday, March 2, which is Texas Independence Day.  Oath Keepers, an organization of military, police, first responders and dedicated patriot citizens, is taking lead in organizing the border security vigil which will place volunteers along highways parallel to the Rio Grand to serve as volunteer eyes and ears to spot and report suspected illegal entry into the U.S., reporting directly to CBP and Texas DPS.  While the operation begins on March 2, it will be an ongoing operation that will continue in indefinitely. There will also be a rally this  weekend on the border in California. See details here.

Oldyoti

"Today's ceremony however, has very special meaning,
because today, we are not merely transferring power
from one administration to another or from one party
to another, but we are transferring power from Washington,
DC. And giving it back to you, the people."

~President Donald Trump

Offline TahoeBlue

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Re: "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!" 173 years ago this week.
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2019, 11:53:25 am »
One of my favorite songs ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuu8DcKGuGU
Donovan Remember the Alamo
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline TahoeBlue

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Commemorate the 183rd anniversary of the Battle of the Alamo - 2019
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2019, 01:10:07 pm »
http://www.thealamo.org/visit/events/commemoration/index.html
The Alamo invites you to Remember the Alamo with thirteen days of interactive living history programming and special events to commemorate the anniversary of the 1836 siege and battle.

....

2019 Alamo Siege & Battle Commemoration Schedule of Events   
MONDAY, MARCH 4

9 a.m. ? 4 p.m. | Living History

Interact with live Living History demonstrations.

 

4 ? 4:30 p.m. | Voices from the Past

A member of the Alamo garrison reads historic texts that describe what is happening at the Alamo during each day of the siege.

7 ? 8 p.m. | Alamo After Dark Special Commemoration Tour

Retrace the footsteps of the past in the solitude of an Alamo after-hours tour. Your visit will include a personalized tour of the Church and Alamo Grounds after normal operating hours. This tour will be conduct by professional Alamo tour guides and will depict the history for the Texas revolution and the famous Battle of the Alamo. Also included in this tour will be a explanation of the current conservation and archeological work being done on the grounds.

This tour is $35.00 per person. Children 5 and under are free and you do not need to purchase a ticket for them. Register at this link.

 
TUESDAY, MARCH 5

9 a.m. ? 4 p.m. | Living History

Interact with live Living History demonstrations exploring the culture and artillery of frontier Texas.

10 a.m. ? 11 a.m. | Guided Tour: After the Battle

This special guided tour is offered free to the first 30 visitors who register online. This tour explores the Alamo battlefield and what happened after the battle. Register at this link.

 

12 ? 1 p.m. | James Boddie's Virtual Alamo

Join us for a special talk by James Boddie that explores the inspiration and process of creating his incredible 3D model of the 1836 Alamo. This lecture will take place in Alamo Hall. Register at this link.

4 ? 4:30 p.m. | Voices from the Past

A member of the Alamo garrison reads historic texts that describe what is happening at the Alamo during each day of the siege.

 
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 6

6 a.m. - 7 a.m. | Dawn at the Alamo

In partnership with the San Antonio Living History Association, Dawn at the Alamo describes the events leading up to the morning of the battle. Two youth choirs will perform following the program, which will conclude with a musket volley.

 

9 a.m. ? 4 p.m. | Living History

Interact with live Living History demonstrations exploring the culture and artillery of frontier Texas.

 

10 a.m. | Commemoration Ceremony

This ceremony, presented in partnership with the Sons of the Republic of Texas, commemorates the 1836 Siege and Battle with guest speaker George Nelson, author of the Illustrated History of the Alamo.

 

2 ? 3 p.m. | Commemoration Ceremony: Memorial Service for the Heroes of the Alamo

This program, presented in partnership with the Alamo Mission Chapter of the Daughters of the Republic of Texas, honors the heroes of the Alamo who valiantly fought and died on March 6, 1836. The ceremony features a performance by Fort Sam?s Own 323d Army Band and a roll call of the nations and states where each defender came from.

 

4 ? 4:30 p.m. | Voices from the Past

A member of the Alamo garrison reads historic texts that describe what is happening at the Alamo during each day of the siege.

 

6 ? 7 p.m. | Commemoration Ceremony: Remember the Defenders

This poignant ceremony commemorates the lives of the 189 defenders that died on March 6, 1836 at the Battle of the Alamo and honors the sacrifice they and their families made in the name of Texas? independence.


| - - - - -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCIAqi9Xiwk
Commemorate the 183rd anniversary of the Battle of the Alamo

The Alamo
Published on Feb 7, 2019
The Alamo invites you to help us commemorate the 183rd anniversary of the Battle of the Alamo with thirteen days of interactive living history programming and special events, Feb. 23 through March 6.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXThq7Dc2jc
Arrival Of The Gonzales 32, Alamo Plaza, March 1, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbPDHJQMuk
Travis Letter Ceremony at the Alamo Feb. 24, 2019
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5