Author Topic: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote  (Read 14184 times)

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Offline freeyrmind

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Just saw this on the "news" a few minutes ago. Waiting for the hardcopy to be posted for a link.

But they reported that they voted that congress is not required to read bills before they vote on them and that they are not required to post the bills being voted on for the public to read. So much for "transparency" eh. Not like congress reads the bills anyway, but to now deny the public to be allowed to read and view them is just over the top. Storm is a brewing.
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Offline freeyrmind

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 12:30:48 pm »
Edit: It was the Senate Dems that voted it down. Here is the story.

"Senate Finance Committee Democrats have rejected a GOP amendment that would have required a health overhaul bill to be available online for 72 hours before the committee votes.

Republicans argued that transparency is an Obama administration goal. They also noted that their constituents are demanding that they read bills before voting.

Democrats said it was a delay tactic that could have postponed a vote for weeks.

The Democrats noted that unlike other committees, the Finance Committee works off conceptual language that describes policies -- instead of legislative language that ultimately becomes law, and which the GOP amendment would have required.

Democrats accepted an alternate amendment to make conceptual language available online before a vote."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/23/senate-dems-reject-gop-attempt-greater-transparency-health-care/?test=latestnews
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Offline RoadRunner

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 12:33:22 pm »
Wait so did they vote for a bill which says that niether party has to read the bill nor does the public have access... or did they simply deny the republicans of a 72 hour period to read the healthcare bill before passing it
you can do anything you want
think anything you like
but you cant change human nature

Offline TheHouseMan

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 12:33:51 pm »
We KNOW that they have the bill written already. There's no way they could still be writing it 72 hours before the deadline.. Thus, it's insane that they don't let us read it... Completely insane.

Offline freeyrmind

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 12:35:50 pm »
Wait so did they vote for a bill which says that niether party has to read the bill nor does the public have access... or did they simply deny the republicans of a 72 hour period to read the healthcare bill before passing it

Basically yes. They are not required to read the bills before being passed, AND they do not have to give the public access to view the bills.
"It is said the eskimos have 22 words for snow. Immortal has 23.."

Offline egypt

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 12:42:26 pm »
Well, they need to do, whatever they are doing - which amounts to sitting on their rears, for free.

I am not happy, as a taxpayer that they are not doing the job they were elected for = doing what I want them to, as my representative.

They need to be recalled on this issue.

Love, e


Offline Overcast

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 12:43:04 pm »
We need a new law. (I very rarely say that now... )

"No Constituent Left Behind"

Where competency tests would be given to members of the Government. If they cannot obtain a certain score - then they must take 'remedial' classes and/or be evaluated for competency.

If our kids can be subjected to this - why not our leaders?
And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

Offline RoadRunner

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 12:47:27 pm »
We need a new law. (I very rarely say that now... )

"No Constituent Left Behind"

Where competency tests would be given to members of the Government. If they cannot obtain a certain score - then they must take 'remedial' classes and/or be evaluated for competency.

If our kids can be subjected to this - why not our leaders?

LOL i wish

Those kids in the congress need to go back to school
you can do anything you want
think anything you like
but you cant change human nature

Offline Optimus

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 12:54:35 pm »
WTF?!?!

 >:( >:( >:( >:(
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people,
it's an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” – Patrick Henry

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Offline Dok

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 01:04:44 pm »
really what did you expect?
HOW TO BE SAVED
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

Ye Must Be Born Again!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/ye_must_be_born_again.htm

True Salvation & the TRUE Gospel/Good News!
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/?p=1060

how to avoid censorship ;)

Offline egypt

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 01:26:54 pm »
I really do not believe this is the Hope & Change people were voting for?  What a cruel joke.

We need to march up there and replace them with our representatives, take our government back, arrest them for their treason.

The Agenda has been exposed & therefore, they have to try go full blast right now which means a foreceful takeover with armed forces.    It is time for action, in my opinion.  I would see a broadcasting...

A Peace Train... hand out information, correctly compiled, succinct with sources.  I would peacefully walk to washington dc behind buz aldren & charlie sheen to get answers from Congress, Bernanke & obama

Love, e

Offline AtomicBlythe

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Us Amerikins is too dumb to read a health care plan...
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 02:14:11 pm »
WASHINGTON -- The Senate Finance Committee debated health-care legislation for a second day Wednesday, adopting a couple of Democratic-backed amendments and turning down Republican ones, including a measure to make the full bill available online before the panel votes on it.

The committee has a "conceptual" version of the health-care bill posted on its Web site, rather than a full legislative text of the bill. Compiling the complex language with amendments into a bill and consequently receiving an official cost estimate would take weeks, according to the committee's chairman, Sen. Max Baucus.
[Baucus] Getty Images

Sen. Baucus presides over a session on health-care reform legislation on Tuesday.

By a 12-11 vote, the committee defeated a Republican amendment that would have required it to post the full bill at least 72 hours before it votes on whether to approve the measure.

The committee slogged through nearly two hours of debate on the amendment, which was offered by Sen. Jim Bunning (R., Ky.). Republicans argued that the amendment would make the committee's process on the complicated legislation more transparent.

"It would seem crazy to most people that we vote on something when we didn't see the legislative language," Mr. Bunning said. "Well, they'd be right. It is crazy."


Democrats countered that a conceptual, "plain English" version of the bill does a better job of explaining what the bill would do.



"Let's be honest about it," said Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts. "Legislative language is relatively arcane, very legalistic, and most people don't read the legislative language."

A Baucus spokesman said that using a conceptual version of legislation has been the committee's custom "on essentially every major piece of legislation for a decade or more," including tax-cut measures in 2001 and 2003 and a Medicare-prescription-drug-benefit bill in 2003

Mr. Baucus, a Montana Democrat, warned that the amendment could delay the bill's passage by two to three weeks, which accounts for time needed for the technical work of adding amendments to the bill. Mr. Baucus also argued that the committee had taken unprecedented steps to provide information on the bill, such as posting proposed amendments to the bill to its Web site two days before the committee took up the measure.

Continued
"Civilization" has gone completely forking mad and I am taking my family and running for the hills.

Offline Overcast

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 02:14:46 pm »
LOL i wish

Those kids in the congress need to go back to school

Someone try to get Ron Paul to propose it ;)

lol
And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

Offline chris jones

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 08:14:27 pm »

What  do they do toss a coin, heads or tails.

These sukbags have a staff, if they can't understand the the legalities of the bill they can have a staffer do it for them.
For crying out loud, they could pay a lawyer to interperet them, they get paid enough.

Ever get the feeling they are just suking up the paycheck, payoffs, favors, and being above the law of the land.


We the people are not allowed to read the bills untill passed, nor know the context beforehand, and stay in our closets eating shiite, the parade of the mushrooms.

Aren't we suppose to have a constitution?? Not according to our regime and their masters.

They despise our freedoms, our coutrys base, and the globalists calling the plays are slaughtering this nation.

Offline GhostofTsenzei

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2009, 03:40:21 pm »
Basically yes. They are not required to read the bills before being passed, AND they do not have to give the public access to view the bills.

They agreed to have "Conceptual" language, however, that means that details are obscured, and only "concepts" are put out, which means that lies and spin will be the "official" bill released to the public and GOP, and there will be no bill to corroborate or proof that 'conceptual" language.
There is no "gray" when it comes to what is good or evil, it is always black and white.  People have the potential to be as evil as Hitler, or as good as Gandhi or MLK Jr.  However, most people are more like zebras.

Offline Georgiacopguy

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2009, 03:54:39 pm »
How can they conceive this as even remotely being a good idea? And why can't the public dig their heads out of their asses long enough to be oputraged about it....
The resistance starts here. Unfortunately, the entire thing is moving beyond the intellectual infowar. I vow I will not make an overt rush at violent authority, until authority makes it's violent rush at me and you. I will not falter, I will not die in this course. For that is how they win.

Offline Southern Patriot

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 05:47:00 pm »
Nobama promised 5 days of public review before a bill is voted on. The republicans tried to squeeze 72 hours out of the democrats and they said hell no.

Offline NWOSCUM

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 05:53:39 pm »
Well, they need to do, whatever they are doing - which amounts to sitting on their rears, for free.

I am not happy, as a taxpayer that they are not doing the job they were elected for = doing what I want them to, as my representative.

They need to be recalled on this issue.

Love, e



Uhhmmm NO, they don't sit on their rears for free.  They get paid prolly $100,000 per year with all the kickbacks and gifts they can stomach.
"The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, and their power of forgetting is enormous." --Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"

Offline Jackson Holly

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2009, 05:55:59 pm »


Oh - My - God

Quote
"Let's be honest about it," said Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts. "Legislative language is relatively arcane, very legalistic, and most people don't read the legislative language."

Of course this crap is totally unintelligible ... it is meant to be. SO ... they should be required to publish a simple to read summary in PLAIN ENGLISH for Chrissakes.

Pass it without reading it ? Asinine!


St. Augustine: -The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it.
Let it loose; it will defend itself.-

Offline GhostofTsenzei

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2009, 03:39:31 pm »
Of course this crap is totally unintelligible ... it is meant to be.

You know, other than the fact that most of these long bills also amend a dozen other bills of equal length and/or complexity... the language is a lot more straightforward than John Kerry or yourself imply.

I haven't studied law, but there's a logic to the language, sort of like there's a logic to mathematics, yet also far more accessible (at least what I've read) to most compared to things like higher Calculus.  It isn't the same logic, but it is very technical and works toward precision.  Which is one of the ways to find bad legislation: When the terms lack precision, or are very broad, like the PATRIOT definition of "terrorist" which essentially states that anyone attempting to affect change by any means is one... it's a good clue (pending the actual content of the bill, naturally).
There is no "gray" when it comes to what is good or evil, it is always black and white.  People have the potential to be as evil as Hitler, or as good as Gandhi or MLK Jr.  However, most people are more like zebras.

Offline ekimdrachir

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2009, 04:37:31 pm »
When you give the highest authority in the land to a body of decision makers, but then those members choose not to make decisions and instead just f**k around, you have to drag them out of that body, or the whole nation will fall. Honestly, if someone doesn't stop these criminals there's not going to be anybody left to do it.

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2009, 05:05:12 pm »
in any case, they are just sick and tired of having to be accountable to the people they supposedly represent and foolishly 'elected' them. This only goes to show what their mindset is. To pass anything they are told to pass or else. Reading is not important and it's work. They want to haul in the big bucks and do nothing for the people. Let's face it, they work for the federal govt now, not us.

Offline Cobra

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Re: Us Amerikins is too dumb to read a health care plan...
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2009, 05:14:39 pm »


"Let's be honest about it," said Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts. "Legislative language is relatively arcane, very legalistic, and most people don't read the legislative language."





AKA "it's the language that actually matters".


Kerry just admitted that they don't want the public to know what the bill exactly entails.

So f-ing awesome.

Offline Jackson Holly

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2009, 06:42:53 pm »


I agree with all you guys.

The Federal government, the passage of laws, has become a complete farce. We so-called 'elect' these men and women to represent our interests AGAINST THE CORPORATE/ELITE POWERS ... and they do the OPPOSITE.

It has become a big party for them ... two years or six years to feign ELITE POWER ... to hang out in the hallowed halls of power, play with little boys or girls on the government dime, hobnob with the obscenely wealthy ELITE ... and rubber stamp the CORPORATE ELITE mandates. READ IT? HHaaahhHAHHAhhAAHAHhhhhaaaa!

St. Augustine: -The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it.
Let it loose; it will defend itself.-

Offline Georgiacopguy

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2009, 08:40:09 pm »
I trust nor want any man or woman who WANTS the power and authority of being in Congress, the Senate, or the Presidency. Personally, I'd LOVE to see a draft come into play for Government political service. I mean, sure, they'd be obligated to a single ter,m, and we would have to reimburse them, but I'd trust people who had the authority thrust on them after being vetted, than I do electing them, THEN vetting them, then being stuck with them.
The resistance starts here. Unfortunately, the entire thing is moving beyond the intellectual infowar. I vow I will not make an overt rush at violent authority, until authority makes it's violent rush at me and you. I will not falter, I will not die in this course. For that is how they win.

Offline ekimdrachir

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2009, 10:46:08 pm »

One day the world will have a real hall of learning, and a real hall of debate, where real problems are discussewd and resolutions are found, without beurocracy, without scapegoats, without all the garbage these children throw around. These kids need to be grounded, and real mature adults replace them.

Offline GhostofTsenzei

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2009, 02:54:57 am »
One day the world will have a real hall of learning, and a real hall of debate, where real problems are discussed. [snipped slightly]

It strikes me that for the most part we have those things.  Just not in the Capital(s).  The streets and the forums are our real halls of debate, where real problems are discussed.  Through that debate, through other avenues (research, stumbling over information) we also have our halls of learning.

I think, in a way, it has been this way most often, where the halls of discussion and learning, especially those free of scapegoats and straw men, are in the alleys and the side streets.  I know though, you meant that you hope that these things will be prominent, drowning out the false paradigms and the mockery of discussion that passes for the main halls today.  I hope so too.
There is no "gray" when it comes to what is good or evil, it is always black and white.  People have the potential to be as evil as Hitler, or as good as Gandhi or MLK Jr.  However, most people are more like zebras.

Offline buddah

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2009, 03:35:27 am »
wait why did they have to make this ammendment in the first place arent all bills available to be read on govtrac they just have to realease the title of which bill they are going with. maybe this is what they voted down, but did they have to vote on every other bill that has been on govtrac or thomas before releasing the bill number to the public? this doesnt make sense ive never heard of an ammendment like this all bills have always been made public. it doesnt make sense that republicans made an ammendment to make this one public.

Offline menace

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2009, 05:06:29 am »
just Congress telling every body who protested the bill at the town hall events to stick it were the sun dont shine.

Offline GhostofTsenzei

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Re: Congress votes neither they nor the public can read bills before vote
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2009, 09:47:47 pm »
wait why did they have to make this ammendment in the first place arent all bills available to be read on govtrac they just have to realease the title of which bill they are going with. maybe this is what they voted down, but did they have to vote on every other bill that has been on govtrac or thomas before releasing the bill number to the public? this doesnt make sense ive never heard of an ammendment like this all bills have always been made public. it doesnt make sense that republicans made an ammendment to make this one public.

They do not need to post the (supposedly finalized) version of a bill until just before voting on it currently.  The amendment would have added a 72 hour period between a completed bill being posted and voted on.  Govtrac (and other postings) do not currently have that waiting period (which would give people time to read the longer bills), so changes or additional content can come in without much time for review by the public or opposition.

Normally there is supposed to be at least 24 hours.  However, the use of "emergency powers" has bypassed this on bills that Pelosi and the President have wanted to pass quickly (such as Bank Bailout, climate change bill, etc.).
There is no "gray" when it comes to what is good or evil, it is always black and white.  People have the potential to be as evil as Hitler, or as good as Gandhi or MLK Jr.  However, most people are more like zebras.