Author Topic: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies  (Read 9206 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline xatom227

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
"Presidents are not elected by ballot, they are selected by blood."   -  David Icke

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."  -  J. Edgar Hoover

Offline Dig

  • All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man.
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63,090
    • Git Ureself Edumacated
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2009, 08:40:37 am »
see fog of war, this guy tried to come clean (at least a little bit) before his death
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

Offline IridiumKEPfactor

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,668
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2009, 08:52:56 am »
see fog of war, this guy tried to come clean (at least a little bit) before his death

That was pretty good documentary. Very Troubling to see that one lie and supporting lies can cause so much distruction to people , lives, and the world.

Here's a google Video link to it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8653788864462752804&ei=OQFSSrC0Ko-2rQKGp-mgDg&q=fog+of+war&hl=en

Offline Satyagraha

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,941
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2009, 12:02:56 pm »
I refer people to "The Fog of War" when they absolutely refuse to believe that the US Government would EVER do ANYTHING to harm our own guys.... (Like 911, OkCity, etc. etc..) ..the Gulf of Tonkin is clear evidence. The one thing I can thank that bastard for is coming clean publicly and on camera.
And  the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, 
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,  ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:40

Offline Clyde Barrow

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 873
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2009, 03:26:07 pm »
see fog of war, this guy tried to come clean (at least a little bit) before his death

He seemed genuinely upset about JFK's death in that...
“It is curious - curious that physical courage should be so common in the world, and moral courage so rare”

- Mark Twain

Offline starvosan

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,124
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2009, 06:21:17 pm »
He seemed genuinely upset about JFK's death in that...
Yeah, but it took about 20 takes for him to do it right.  Let us talk of him no longer.

Offline bigron

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,124
  • RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT 2012
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2009, 08:08:21 am »
The Tragedy of Robert McNamara Does Not End With Vietnam


McNamara was a warped prophet, a flesh-and-blood monument to the folly of militarism. And yet Americans failed to listen.


By Will Bunch, Huffington Post
Posted on July 6, 2009, Printed on July 7, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/http://www.huffingtonpost.com//141117/



Robert McNamara died today at age 93. As Secretary of Defense for Presidents John F. Kennedy and more notably Lyndon Johnson in the mid-1960s, it was McNamara who oversaw America's tragic military buildup in Vietnam. That made McNamara -- right up until today's news -- a vivid anti-icon to those Baby Boomers who opposed the war -- and I think you can make the case that his death is that of the most historical significance of the slew of recent "celebrity" passings, no matter how many millions of people are gathering outside the Staples Center to remember the Gloved One.



Bob McNamara was not a great man. He was a man with great intelligence that didn't prevent him from executing a plan that led to the unnecessary slaughter -- for reasons that remain hard to fully comprehend -- of tens of thousands of Americans and many more Vietnamese. He spent next four decades trying to come to terms with the banality of evil, with the horror of what he and those around him had done, but even his unusually candid apologies never seemed to go far enough:



The secretary of defense was a key figure in decisions to escalate the war between 1961 and 1965, and he readily concedes that the assumptions upon which he and his colleagues acted were badly flawed. They approached Vietnam, he recalls, with "sparse knowledge, scant experience and simplistic assumptions." Victims of their own "innocence and confidence," they foolishly viewed communism as monolithic, knew nothing about Indochina, and were "simple-minded" regarding the historical relationship between China and Vietnam. They badly misjudged Ho Chi Minh's nationalism and consistently overestimated South Vietnam's ability to survive. Regarding the key decisions of 1965, he admits he should have anticipated that bombing North Vietnam would lead to requests for ground troops. He concedes there should have been a public debate on the July 1965 decision for war. Over and over he acknowledges that he should have examined the unexamined assumptions, asked the unasked questions, and explored the readily dismissed alternatives.


The life of Robert McNamara was a personal tragedy, but it was also an American tragedy, our tragedy -- because even after McNamara spelled out everything that went so horribly wrong in Vietnam, he lived long enough to see a new generation of the self-appointed "best and brightest" in Washington pay absolutely no mind to the lessons of our recent past.



In Iraq, as in Vietnam, our policy-makers knew nothing or cared little about the long history and convoluted ethnic and religious politics of Mesopotamia's Fertile Crescent. In Iraq, as in Vietnam, there was no plan for the proper military follow-up to a period of "shock and awe" bombing. In Iraq, as in Vietnam, we totally misjudged the "nationalism" of the people who lived there and how they would react to a long American occupation. And perhaps most importantly, In Iraq, as in Vietnam, there was no real "public debate" as we marched headlong and foolishly into 2003 -- with way too many "unexamined assumptions," "unasked questions," and "readily dismissed alternatives."



I actually spoke, very briefly, on the phone with McNamara in early 2003 in an effort to interview him for the Philadelphia Daily News, where I am a reporter. Like a few other journalists in that critical hour, I was hoping some of his tragically acquired wisdom might infuse the tepid pre-war discussions, and like all other reporters in those pre-war months, he told me he was holding off on commenting (as noted in the link above, he had a lot to say in 2006...when it was too late). That was a damned shame -- even though I can't imagine it would have tipped the rigged scales.



 



Regardless of your religious or spiritual beliefs, it's hard not to imagine there wasn't some higher purpose to McNamara's longevity. You could argue that it was a cosmic punishment, of sorts, to live so many years with the searing memories of so many who died so horrifically because of his misguided decisions from the comforts of his big desk at the Pentagon. Or you argue that he was still here in the early 2000s as a kind of a warped prophet, a flesh-and-blood monument to the folly of militarism. If that is true, then the fact that America refused to pay any attention is Robert McNamara's greatest tragedy of all.



© 2009 Huffington Post All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/http://www.huffingtonpost.com//141117/

Offline Satyagraha

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,941
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2009, 11:12:28 am »
Quote
..." I was hoping some of his tragically acquired wisdom"...

The thing is - he didn't have any 'tragically acquired wisdom' - in the end, he was full of remorse for not having achieved his own personal goals; not because he was responsible in part for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people! He had nothing - he was an empty shell. We tend to project (what would be) our own feelings of remorse and regret onto him - because we actually HAVE those feelings. McNamara did not. He was a cold, calculating SOB.
And  the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, 
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,  ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:40

Offline Southern Patriot

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,126
  • Inter arma enim silent leges
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2009, 11:56:01 am »
Isn't he the one who invented the Gulf of Tonkin?
I say good riddance to bad rubbish!
Too bad he didn't go sooner before he helped shape the imperialist model for the military industrial complex.

Offline Satyagraha

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,941
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2009, 12:07:30 pm »
After the War Was Over
  
By BOB HERBERT
Published: July 6, 2009

Robert McNamara, Lyndon Johnson’s icy-veined, cold-visaged and rigidly intellectual point man for a war that sent thousands upon thousands of people (most of them young) to their utterly pointless deaths, has died at the ripe old age of 93.
Skip to next paragraph

Long after the horror of Vietnam was over, McNamara would concede, in remarks that were like salt in the still festering wounds of the loved ones of those who had died, that he had been “wrong, terribly wrong” about the war. I felt nothing but utter contempt for his concession.

I remember getting my draft notice in the mid-1960s as Johnson’s military buildup for the war was in full swing. I’m not sure what I expected. Probably that the other recruits would be a tough bunch, that they would all look like John Wayne. I was staggered on the first day of basic training at Fort Dix, N.J., to be part of a motley gathering of mostly scared and skinny kids who looked like the guys I’d gone to high school with. Who looked, basically, pun intended, like me.

That’s who was shipped off to Vietnam in droves — youngsters 18, 19, 20 and 21. Many, of course, would die there, and many others would come back forever scarred.

Johnson and McNamara should have been looking out for those kids, who knew nothing about geopolitics, or why they were being turned into trained killers who, we were told, could cold-bloodedly smoke the enemy — “Good shot!” — and then kick back and smoke a Marlboro. Many would end up weeping on the battlefield, crying for their moms with their dying breaths. Or trembling uncontrollably as they watched buddies, covered in filth, bleed to death before their eyes — sometimes in their arms.

I was lucky. The Army sent me to Korea, which was no walk in the park, but it wasn’t Vietnam. I served in the intelligence office of an engineer battalion. But no one could truly escape the war. I would get letters from home that would make my heart sink, letters telling me that this buddy had been killed, that that buddy had been killed, that a kid that I had played football or softball with — or had gone to the rifle range with — had been killed.

For what?

McNamara didn’t know. My sister’s boyfriend got shot. A very close friend of mine came back from Vietnam so messed up psychologically that he killed his wife and himself.

The hardest lesson for people in power to accept is that wars are unrelentingly hideous enterprises, that they butcher people without mercy and therefore should be undertaken only when absolutely necessary.

Kids who are sent off to war are forced to grow up too fast. They soon learn what real toughness is, and it has nothing to do with lousy bureaucrats and armchair warriors sacrificing the lives of the young for political considerations and hollow, flag-waving, risk-free expressions of patriotic fervor.

McNamara, it turns out, had realized early on that Vietnam was a lost cause, but he kept that crucial information close to his chest, like a gambler trying to bluff his way through a bad hand, as America continued to send tens of thousands to their doom. How in God’s name did he ever look at himself in a mirror?

Lessons learned from Vietnam? None.

As The Times’s Tim Weiner pointed out in McNamara’s obituary, Congress authorized the war after President Johnson contended that American warships had been attacked by North Vietnamese patrol boats in the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964. The attack never happened. As Mr. Weiner wrote, “The American ships had been firing at their own sonar shadows on a dark night.”

But McNamara, relying on intelligence reports, told Johnson that evidence of the attack was ironclad. Does this remind anyone of the “slam dunk” evidence of Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction?

More than 58,000 Americans died in Vietnam and some 2 million to 3 million Vietnamese. More than 4,000 Americans have died in Iraq, and no one knows how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Even as I was writing this, reports were coming in of seven more American G.I.’s killed in Afghanistan — a war that made sense in the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, but makes very little sense now.


None of these wars had clearly articulated goals or endgames. None were pursued with the kind of intensity and sense of common purpose and shared sacrifice that marked World War II. Wars are now mostly background noise, distant events overshadowed by celebrity deaths and the antics of Sarah Palin, Mark Sanford and the like.

The obscenity of war is lost on most Americans, and that drains the death of Robert McNamara of any real significance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/opinion/07herbert.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
And  the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, 
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,  ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:40

JBS

  • Guest
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2009, 02:40:28 pm »
And now a moment of rememberance for our poor dead war criminal friend

http://recall2.nfshost.com/sounds/friend.wav

Offline bigron

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,124
  • RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT 2012
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 07:14:20 am »
The Fog of War   (VIDEO)


Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara

Errol Morris's Oscar-winning 2003 documentary

This brilliant work by director Morris is the stuff of life. And death. It arouses the most basic moral and immoral questions of being human through an enormously complex and yet simple man, Robert Strange McNamara. It seems no coincidence, his middle name, as we get to know him in all his cleverness and contradictions. Morris subtly illuminates, literally through McNamara's eyes, what it means to have power over life and death.

 05/10/06

 View - 1 Hour 46 Minutes

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8653788864462752804&hl=en



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12990.htm




Offline bigron

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,124
  • RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT 2012
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 06:08:45 am »
Robert McNamara Was Never Really in Touch with His Role in Causing Atrocity in Vietnam

"When a man confesses yet cannot connect the horror he helped unleash with his own humanity, he is not to be trusted."


By Andrew Lam, New America Media
Posted on July 9, 2009, Printed on July 9, 2009
http://www.alternet.org/story/141181/

 Living in Vietnam during the war as a child, I witnessed enough of American military power to know that no ideology or rationale can justify killing more than a million innocent civilians. So upon news of Robert McNamara's death I took another look at his confession in "The Fog of War," the documentary by Errol Morris.



 



While it was gratifying to hear Robert McNamara, one of the principle architects of that war, finally admitted that he, too, thought it was a mistake for Americans to go into Vietnam. Yet if I was glad that near the end of his life the former secretary of defense was admitting his mistakes, I was also sorely disappointed. McNamara was a highly intelligent man living a kind of self-deception. While readily confessing that the war was wrong, and that he knew it was wrong all along, he somehow absolved himself just as quickly. The ex-secretary of defense suggests on camera that he did the best he could under the circumstances and that, if he hadn't been at the helm micromanaging the war's first half, things might have been far worse. Never mind that under his watch the war widened and escalated.



 



I had hoped for an honest, gut-wrenching mea culpa. What I got instead was an elaborate explanation that sounded like an excuse. Not once did McNamara say, "I'm sorry." His well-argued confessions seemed rehearsed and disconnected from the emotional honesty one associates with remorse. It is as if the head acknowledged that mistakes were made, but the heart refused to feel the horrors that were unleashed.



 



Near the end of the film, McNamara talked about what he called the fog of war. "What the fog of war means," he said, "is that war is so complex it's beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend all the variables. Our judgment, our understanding are not adequate, and we kill people unnecessarily."



 



Errol Morris, known for his films "The Thin Blue Line," about an unjust murder conviction, and "A Brief History of Time," about physicist Stephen Hawking, uses that statement to give the movie its title. In one interview, Morris said, "I look at the McNamara story as 'the fog of war ate my homework' excuse." He added: "After all, if war is so complex, then no one is responsible."



 



While the Vietnamese, both north and south, are not free from blame for killing each other in Vietnam's bloody civil war, McNamara and his bosses, presidents Kennedy and Johnson, are clearly responsible for escalating it. The U.S. government, after all, under McNamara and president Kennedy, helped engineer the coup that killed South Vietnamese president Ngo Dinh Diem, when Diem was considering peace negotiations with the North without U.S. interference. His death destabilized South Vietnam and plunged it into another dozen years of bloodshed.



 



McNamara kept sending American troops to Vietnam while knowing deep in his heart that the war was not winnable, and encouraged the South to continue fighting. It is no wonder that South Vietnamese tell the story of their relationship with America as one of spectacular betrayal. The United States abandoned the South Vietnamese government in the middle of a war. Many South Vietnamese officials died in communist gulags after the war's end, and more than 2 million Vietnamese fled overseas as boat people, many ending up at the bottom of the sea. McNamara never made references to the suffering of the South Vietnamese people as a direct cause of his administration of the war, as if somehow an entire people have conveniently ceased to exist. In later years, he made peace with his enemies but not with the allies that the US abandoned.



 



McNamara left the Johnson administration in 1967. Despite what he knew about the war, he refused to speak out against it, and watched in silence as more body bags came home. Foggy or not, someone as smart as McNamara should know right from wrong. If the secretary of defense knew it was wrong to continue the war, why did he keep his silence until now, more than three decades later? If he knew he was killing innocent people unnecessarily, where was the man who should, in the aftermath of terrible bloodshed and in acknowledging the mistakes, beg from the deepest part of his humanity for forgiveness?



 



Morris asked him precisely that. "Why," he inquires near the end of the film, "did you fail to speak out against the war after you left the Johnson administration?"



 



"I'm not going to say any more than I have," McNamara responded. "These are the kinds of questions that get me in trouble. You don't know what I know about how inflammatory my words can appear."



 



The documentary has a subtitle: Eleven Lessons From the Life of Robert S. McNamara. One of them is, "Believing and seeing are both often wrong." What that means to McNamara is that doing the right thing turned out to be an enormous error.



 



What it means to me is that when a man confesses yet cannot connect the horror he helped unleash with his own humanity, he is not to be trusted. Alas, if I and others who want to hear a heartfelt apology, we no longer can. The old fog of war had permanently thickened with his passing.


Andrew Lam is editor of New America Media and the author of "Perfume Dreams; Reflections on the Vietnamese Diaspora."

© 2009 New America Media All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/141181/

Offline TahoeBlue

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,280
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 12:00:31 pm »
We were set up by our own....

When it comes to Vietnam, no one gets into who was supplying the North Vietnam a country of 0 GNP, the USSR.

The U.S. never stopped the supply lines. So the Cong had MIGS, TANKS, SAMS, RADARS, millions of AK's and mortars..
Even the trucks going down the HO Chi mihn trail were FORD trucks built in the Soviet Union.
During op Rolling Thunder and through-out the war, pilots were ORDERED NOT to BOMB the MIG AIRFEILDS. Fighters would buzz the field to force the Migs to scamble where the were allowed to engage them in the air.
North Veitnam stored all the goodies in civilian areas like schools and hospitals in Hanoi so we bombed everywhere else.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YKkF8vQRcp0C&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=mine+harbor+vietnam&source=bl&ots=uBSTVUMQlT&sig=t9OXIpZrqa8Pd6Ux99vq2X5Nq_0&hl=en&ei=gh5WSpXZJoaMMd302J0I&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

"Both Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon refused to mine Haiphong Harbor, in spight of intense lobbying to do so from military..."

Only after they had all the goodies did we shut the harbor down:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Haiphong.aspx

During the Vietnam War , Haiphong was severely bombed by the United States; the shipyards and the industrial section of the city were devastated, rail connections with Hanoi were disrupted, and thousands of homes were destroyed. The harbor was mined by U.S. naval planes in May, 1972, and effectively sealed until the mines were swept by U.S. forces after the cease-fire agreement in 1973

Now they said they were afraid the Chinese would enter the war - * they never did.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170221,00.html
Operation Rolling Thunder, In March of 1965, President Lyndon Johnson's campaign to bomb North Vietnam began. ... As a result, Ho Chi Minh's airfields were protected for years by an order from a President of the United States. ... MiGs, surface to air missiles and thousands of anti-aircraft guns opposed our pilots. ...


Read: Antony C. Sutton and Viktor Suvorov on Technology Transfer from the West to the Soviet Union
http://mailstar.net/sutton.html

In a few words: there is no such thing as Soviet technology.

Almost all - perhaps 90-95 percent - came directly or indirectly from the United States and its allies. In effect the United States and the NATO countries have built the Soviet {p. 254} Union. Its industrial and its military capabilities.
Or how about: The Best Enemy Money Can Buy - Antony C Sutton

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1152355/The-Best-Enemy-Money-Can-Buy-Antony-C-Sutton

Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline Satyagraha

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,941
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 12:03:20 pm »
Tahoe - excellent info thank you
And  the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, 
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,  ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:40

Offline TahoeBlue

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,280
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 04:57:14 pm »
We were set up by our own....

For those uninformed "Ho Chi Minh City" is/was Saigon - 50 thousand plus dead for what? FU! Nixon=Johnson

http://www.conbuild-vietnam.com/
The Industry's Benchmark Trade Event Across Vietnam  - Access More of Vietnam with 3rd ConBuild Vietnam



ConBuild Vietnam is a trade fair for Vietnam and highlights what the infrastructure industry in Vietnam offers in new initiatives and developments throughout Vietnam. It meets the imperative for companies to showcase in regions that are booming, and provides even greater access to all of Vietnam.

ConBuild Vietnam is a prime platform to:

Explore business and networking opportunities in Vietnam
Venture, invest and do business throughout Vietnam
Provide insights, meetings and collaborations with relevant Government authorities and agencies
Understand the regulatory environment
While Hanoi, the capital city in North Vietnam, remains the country’s political decision-making powerhouse and the country’s cultural, educational and transportation center, Ho Chi Minh City (HCMC) commands a corresponding, strategic location in the South with many favorable conditions for economic development. In bringing you closer to new areas of business growth and expansion opportunities in both North and South Vietnam, MMI will stage the third ConBuild Vietnam series in Ho Chi Minh City (HCMC) in 2009.

http://www.nepconvietnam.com/


Throughout all three show days, up to 7,377 industrial visitors flocked into "Vietnam Manufacturing Expo" and "NEPCON Vietnam," and have together, with 450 global brands of exhibitors from 20 countries, created a new chapter in this success story for Vietnam's industrial and electronics parts manufacturing sectors

See you all again in the next edition on May 20 › 22, 2010,
at I.C.E. Hanoi (Cung Van Hoa) 91 Tran Hung Dao Street, Hanoi, Vietnam
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline chris jones

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,832
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 05:34:20 pm »


I never met Bob M.

I hear all these great things about him, but unfortunelty that was after the abomination.

It was said he advised Kennedy about the the Cuban Missle crisis, well folks JFK did everything a human can do to avoid it. Any partialy sane man would advise against it.

I have not seen the Fog of war, I will later.

My take is that this man was power hungry and a fake. he knew FN right well the Gulf of Tonkin was BS, red flag, LBG wanted this.

The bay of pigs and the CIA, it was a smear tactic for JFK, the CIA was hiring drunks in Florida flashing money. I'm not saying JFK was correct in this vnture, I am saying BOB M knew the deal from the beggining to the end beforehand.

He played the presidents, he mouthed the words, but where was the man. Tell it to the 60,000 troppers and the 3 million dead Vietnamese should they rise from the grave.

Even worms taken from their holes will find ways to dig another, he played the power like a fiddle.

Yes, I watch the video, but I remember this guy, it will take a lot of convincing for me to alter my oppinion.

Offline TahoeBlue

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,280
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 06:47:06 pm »
http://vietfacts.com/VF_1975/When_we_knew_what_happened_in_VN.htm
National Review, April 29, 1977, page 487
SECOND ANNIVERSARY - The New Vietnam
LE THI ANH

At the time Saigon fell, most people in the West assumed that if there were a bloodbath it would have to be motivated by anger, by the Communists’ desire for revenge and retaliation. Since none of those emotions was detected in the North Vietnamese rulers and their well disciplined troops as they marched into Saigon, onlookers concluded that there would be no bloodbath?QED, Senator McGovern scoffed’ at the Ford Administration for its predictions. “It’s. ridiculous” he said, “to believe that Mme Binh is going to murder her compatriots.” The Senator was right: Mme Binh was not going to murder anyone. The Communist system itself took on the job.
...
No Vietnamese I know was surprised that a bloodbath did not occur immediately after the Communist victory. A bloodbath at that time would have been counterproductive, under the glare of international publicity and scrutiny thousands of foreigners, including scores of foreign correspondents, were still in Saigon all of them watching the behavior of the victorious troops. The press and the world wanted to see how this long bitter war would end. Hanoi wanted money for reconstruction and did not wish to jeopardize chances of getting aid by an early and spectacular massacre that would have awakened the conscience of the Free World.. If Hanoi is to get American aid, it must rely on those same elements in American society that fought against The Vietnam War so effectively; it must get them to work American public opinion and the U.S. Government around to such a course. And those elements do not like hearing about bloodbaths.

Hanoi has other reasons besides the obvious economic ones for wanting U.S. aid: It hopes to avoid total reliance on either the USSR or China; and it views U.S. reparations as the final; step in the humiliation of America. Thus, for all these reasons, the bloodbath had to be delayed: However, in March of 1976?a year ago? the bamboo curtain began to come down.

All foreign correspondents, news agency reporters, and UN and Red Cross representatives were ordered to leave Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City before May 8, 1976. On June 10 th , both Hanoi and Saigon announced that 12 categories of people would face trial by “people’s tribunals” Among those to be "severe1y punished”: the “lackeys. of U.S. imperialism" those veterans of Thieu’s ‘ "puppet regime” who failed repent their “crimes” and those who "owed blood debts" to the people; and the "past and present enemies of the government and revolution" (This is not the first appearance in Vietnam of people’s tribunals. North Vietnamese refugees vividly remember that from 1956 to 1959, people’s tribunals using denunciation in and torture, were responsible for 200,000 deaths in the North.)

Meanwhile, the regime had already started setting up its “re-education camps" and new economic areas,”

Thousands of urban Vietnamese families have been forced to sell their homes and start over again in new economic areas ere even the basic necessities are lacking. (Hence corruption, once thought of as a Thieu trademark, is flourishing: a new mandarin class has emerged ready to sell anything from a place in a fertile new economic area to a visa to France

In all, some 300,000 people are being detained in re-education camps which are in no way similar to the show camps set up for the benefit of visiting dignitaries an foreign reporters. (TheWashington Post story of February 15 was based on a visit to such a show camp.)

One out every three Saigon families has a member in one of the camps, according to French journalist Jean Lacouture, who made an automobile trip from Hanoi to Saigon in 1976. After a visit to a new economic area for former Saigon near Phan-Thiet, Lacouture wrote that it was “a prefabricated hell and a place one comes to only if the alternative to it would be death."

Camps for former officers and functionaries of the Saigon government are usually located in malaria infested jungle areas.

Thousands of camp inmates have died from lack of food, medicine, or clothing.

Thousands have committed suicide some have been secretly liquidated, others perish through staged “accidents”: For example, former officers are forced to de-activate minefields with their bare hands, so the regime will not have to waste valuable bullets on them.

After the officers had mostly “been taken care of, it was the turn of the intellectuals some 2,500 of whom were sent to re-education camps. Among them are journalists, authors, scholars, professors, Western-educated technicians, student leaders, “Third Force" leaders. The list of prominent Vietnamese now either in prison or in concentration camps includes Catholic Bishop Nguyen Van Thuan; a 72-year-old Hoa-Hao Buddhist leader, Luong Trong Tuong; and 17 members of his family Harvard-educated Tony Nguyen Xuan Oanh; lawyer Tran Van Tuyen.

Meanwhile, a new means of breaking up armed resistance against the regime has been added to this already formidable arsenal: on December 16, Premier Pham Van Dong spoke to the Fourth Communist Party Congress in Hanoi announcing that one million South Vietnamese would be deported to the North, in a five year population shift.

A Vietnamese woman journalist who escaped afier 16 months under communist rule has had no news of her husband, a police officer who detained a re-education camp; she believes he either is dead or has been deported to a labor camp in the North. Her case is typical. There is no conciliation no forgiveness, no leniency only a carefully’ concealed massive political purge:

Father Andre Gelinas, a Vietnamese speaking Jesuit. priest who was recently expelled from Saigon, says that as many as 20,000 Vietnamese have committed suicide since the Communists took over. In the article that New York Review reprinted Gelinas writes that one former policeman killed his ten children his wife and his mother in law and then killed himself. One father, after explaining it was necessary to put an end to their torment, passed out poisoned soup to his family. Twelve monks and nuns immolated themselves by fire at their Duoc-Su pagoda, in PhungHiep, Can-Tho on November 2, 1975 to protest religious persecutions,

Scores of eyewitnesses flee South Vietnam by boat every month. Huynh Tran Duc’s. account is worth special attention. Duc is a young Vietnamese graduate of the French Ecole des Hautes Etudes Commerciales and Columbia University. When Saigon was “liberated,” he left his Pan Am job and his American sweetheart and went home to serve under the new regime. He finally bribed his way out and escaped to Australia deeply disillusioned with the liberation he had actively supported until he saw it with his own eyes. His day by day account, Diary of a Liberated Man, written in English, was translated into French by Brigitte Friang and published in her book Le Mousson de la Liberté (Plon). Here is an exerpt from his entry for July 7, 1975

A convoy of 150 former Saigon officers was massacred en route to a re-education camp, except one who feigned death. Four U.S. trucks driven by ARVN [North Vietnamese Army] drivers; all the officers were blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs. The trucks were preceded by an armored car and a tank and followed by the same. Suddenly, in the ink dark of the of the countryside night, the leading tank and armored car sped up and the following tank and armored car opened fire on the convoy. The wounded were dispatched in place.
All the prisoners were killed, except one who was saved by the local populace. And it was he who reported the massacre. This was a North Vietnamese version of the Katyn massacre of 1939 in which the Russians shot 4500 captured Polish officers. The official story was that the convoy was mined by rebels. Ten days before, another convoy of high-ranking officers left Cholon under the same conditions by night, hands tied, blind Wives don’t know what has become of them.

In its January 24, 1977 issue, the weekly Trang-Den , published in Glendale,, California, carried photographs and a handwritten letter from the widow of Lieutenant Pham Mai, who perished during an anti-Communist attack on the Long-Giao concentration camp in Long Khanh province on the night of April 24, 1976 the Phu-Quoc Quan (National Recovery) forces attacked the camp and liberated a number of inmates. The remaining were machine-gunned by camp authorities

In view of the above it seems incredible that the United States could be considering a program - of aid to Vietnan U.S. dollars most certainly will not help the Vietnamese people: all they can do is provide the government with more bullets. U.S. aid must be tied to respect for human rights: in this case, the prior release of 300,000 former military and political opponents of the Hanoi government. The people of South Vietnam too have their missing in action.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090126/crossette
Tet 2009: Vietnam Ponders its Future By Barbara Crossette
January 12, 2009

The three-day Tet festival is approaching in Vietnam, the climax of a long season of celebrations that began with the enthusiastic embrace of Christmas in mid-December. In the southern city that residents still call Saigon, parks and boulevards have been festooned with colorful lights, and Christmas carols drifted over restaurants, hotel lobbies and department stores with their resident Santas.

On the surface, the "American" war that ended more than three decades ago seems to have left no traces here. But in the hearts and minds of those who suffered the war and survived to remember it, there is pain. Tet is a time for reflection, and there are some conflicted emotions about where Vietnam is headed in the new year.
...
The new book, just published this month in Paris and titled in French Au Zenith, is a thinly veiled and not complimentary novel about the national hero, Ho Chi Minh, the founding father of modern Vietnam and an off-limits subject here. Newspapers have been warned not to touch the story, but copies or excerpts of Huong's book in French and Vietnamese began to circulate on the Internet even before its publication.

Huong, who is from Hanoi and was once an active communist cadre, turned against the regime, as did other intellectuals in the north, on learning after unification that much of the propaganda they had been fed about life in the south was untrue, and that Hanoi's army was killing not only Americans but also fellow Vietnamese. For more than two decades northerners have been exploring this theme of official wartime deceit in books, poetry and film.

When Huong, whose works are banned in Vietnam, was asked, at a rare appearance in New York in 2007 sponsored by American PEN, why there was not open revolt in Vietnam, she said there were several reasons, among them that the Vietnamese had a history of fighting outsiders and no tradition of internal conflict--thus the shock at learning how many southern Vietnamese were dying in the "American" war. She also said bluntly that the Vietnamese are ruled by backward-looking leaders whose pride in winning a war against the United States--a pride widely shared--has never been augmented and updated with a compelling postwar vision for the country. The leadership has survived for thirty years "on corpses," she said.
...


Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline chris jones

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,832
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 09:17:37 pm »

What has they got to do with BOB.M

I'm sorry but I don't get the connection, maby I'm going soft.

Uncle Ho (as the Vietnamese refered to him), did I spell that right. Was a commie, he was also willing to deal with the USA in any way possible to avoid a confrontation. This guy was educated, he desired his country united.

This freak running the show, this so called leader, I know nothing about him.

I do know that I was in Ho's family territory, Tay Ninh and Trang Bang. I walked his familys cemetary plot, saw his grandmothers grave,  The peasants wanted Ho, communist or not, they didn't give a shit. He was for the people, Ya, I'm defending him.
I remember Prez THIEU and his wife the dragon lady, nice folks if you like sadistical sociopaths.

These people at that time had their day with the French shortly before, they had been at war with nations for decades.

Kennedy held to the aggreement of support to stop communism, to support DEMOCRACY,  but if Thieu was a righteous leader i will eat my computer.

Strange we label, and label, I agree that the North were bastards to the South after the war needed, and presumibly still are. I am not defending their actions, I detest them.

Just as I detest the fact we lost 60,000 of Americans sons to a made up endless war for profit plus the same number or more who killed themsleves after coming back stateside. and for the 3 Million we killed in that country.

I still miss the connection, is it that this document is stating we should have remained and liberated the south, if so we would still be there.

The profit made from these deaths, yes deaths, bodycounts, is beyond our imagination.

I'm not making my point, but I am aggitated. JFK wanted out of Nam and so stated 3 months before he was killed, why, he knew the MIC was going to use this, continue it untill they bled the nations dry and fortified their power and grabbed the profits..

He may have been advised by many to put Thieu in office, a pysco puppet, egomaniac, and sadisticaly cruel and greed ridden bag of shiiite. But in the final analysis he saw though the BS and wanted out. This and his actions with the FED got him tagged.

If we had used our brains rather than our bombs, had we seen throguh the curtain of deception, none of this bullshiite would have happened.

Please remember one thing, we judge the wrongs of others as if we are the righteous, we are not, nor are the regime in Nam

We invaded, as you well know, a innocent nation IRAQ , killing 1,364,000 human being in our search for WMD's. We torture at will, kill at will, and grid bomb. By the way , most of these killed were civilians, I have read statistics ranging from 78% to 88%. That means, familys, woman, children, infants, and innocent men.

Again, these mind bents are killing what was their former enemy, and have erected their pysco camps, I despise that as much as the author of your post. However let us weigh in the balance the death we have wrought upon them also.

Lets clean up our house first. In fact lets remove the rat infested regime. Once done, once we regain our honor, perhaps then we can judge the cruelty imposed in other nations.

Bob M. was a clever man, a suk up to his superiors, but covering himslef with answers expected of him.

I have to see that video, Fogs of War. Sorry for ranting but there is much , much more to this tale, this is but a taste of the truth.


Offline Ghost in the Machine

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,162
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 10:11:26 pm »
Why do these evil fcker alway live to like 100, ohh yeah they don't eat GMO...
101010

Offline larsonstdoc

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,341
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2009, 10:15:14 pm »



Only the good die young. 
I'M A DEPLORABLE KNUCKLEHEAD THAT SUPPORTS PRESIDENT TRUMP.  MAY GOD BLESS HIM AND KEEP HIM SAFE.

Offline TahoeBlue

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,280
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2009, 10:28:42 pm »
What has they got to do with BOB.M
I think we are saying the same thing but with different perspectives...

Some references to Robert McNamara, Johnson and Gulf of Tonkin

as an aside Jim Morrison's (The Doors) father was Admiral Morrison in charge of CinqPac at the time.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stephen_Morrison

Quote
Morrison was commander of the U.S. naval forces in the Gulf of Tonkin during the Gulf of Tonkin Incidents of August 1964.[2][3] He later became Commander, Naval Forces, in the Marianas in 1972

New Report on Gulf of Tonkin I: Report reveals Vietnam War hoaxes, faked attacks - January 8, 2008

LBJ Tapes on the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, nauseating to read...

http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/blog/2009/07/09/porter-mcnamara-lied-to-lyndon-johnson-about-gulf-of-tonkin-attack/
Porter: McNamara lied to Lyndon Johnson about gulf of Tonkin Attack


Historian Gareth Porter is reporting that documents show that recently deceased Defense Secretary McNamara hid evidence from President Lyndon Johnson that the 1965  Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened:

Documents which have been available for decades in the LBJ Library show clearly that McNamara failed to inform Johnson that the U.S. naval task group commander in the Tonkin Gulf, Captain John J. Herrick, had changed his mind about the alleged North Vietnamese torpedo attack on U.S. warships he had reported earlier that day.


By early afternoon Washington time, Herrick had reported to the Commander in Chief Pacific in Honolulu that “freak weather effects” on the ship’s radar had made such an attack questionable. In fact, Herrick was now saying, in a message sent at 1:27 pm Washington time, that no North Vietnamese patrol boats had actually been sighted. Herrick now proposed a “complete evaluation before any further action taken.”

McNamara seemed determined to proceed with bombing North Vietnam, so he avoided following up on this proposal for a “complete evaluation”:

But when McNamara called Pacific Admiral Grant Sharp shortly after speaking with Johnson, it was not to order a full investigation or to seek more detailed information. In fact, McNamara didn’t even bring up the Herrick report. Instead, he seemed determined to obtain a statement from Sharp that would make it unnecessary to wait for further investigation. “There isn’t any possibility there was no attack, is there?” asked McNamara.

Sharp insisted, however, that the commander on the scene was saying “the situation’s in doubt” and suggested that McNamara “hold this execute” – meaning the strike order to CINCPAC and Seventh Fleet — “until we have a definite indication that this happened….” Sharp said he believed he could get a “definite indication” that the event had occurred within two hours.

But McNamara rejected Sharp’s proposal to wait for confirmation of the attack. Instead he said, “It seems to me we ought to go ahead on that basis: get the pilots briefed, get the planes armed, get everything lined up to go. Continue the execute order in effect, but between now and 6 o’clock get a definite fix and you call me directly.”

Later it was conclusively determined that no attack had occurred:

The record of phone McNamara-Johnson conversations on the afternoon of Aug. 4, 1964 thus shows a President who was blissfully unaware that the original reports of an attack were now in doubt and that the Commander-in-Chief of Pacific forces was still seeking to obtain confirmation of the attack.

Ultimately, National Security Council documents declassified in 2005 (PDF) would reveal that no attack on US warships had taken place.

It “is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night,” they said. “In truth, Hanoi’s navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on August 2.”

Porter confronted McNamara about this deception, producing implausible explanations:

This writer confronted McNamara with that record in a phone conversation with him on Feb. 24, 2004. His response was that telephone calls were not the only way he had to communicate with Johnson and that he could have told Johnson about the military’s unresolved doubts at the National Security Council meeting which took place that night at 6:15 pm.

Unfortunately for McNamara’s alibi, detailed official notes of that Council meeting taken by NSC staffer Bromley Smith, marked “Top Secret Sensitive, For the President’s Eyes Only,” show that McNamara again asserted unequivocally that the attack had indeed taken place.

After USIA Director Carl Rowan asked, “Do we know for a fact that the North Vietnamese provocation took place?” McNamara said, “We will know definitely in the morning.”

When I read those quotes to McNamara over the phone, he suggested that the notes were “not complete.” But McNamara was admitting, in effect, that he did not inform LBJ that afternoon about the Herrick report or about Sharp’s plea to hold off the execute order until confirming evidence had been obtained.

The records of the Tonkin Gulf crisis in the LBJ library also include documentation showing LBJ wanted to get the truth about what McNamara knew and when he knew it.

The moral of the story is not just that governments lie, but that it is often impossible to determine at the time who is lying and who is truly deceived. Of course,  when he found out about the deceit, Johnson failed to fire McNamara nor to explain to the public what had happened. Instead, he continued the expanded war based on the falsehoods we had bought into. McNamara’s deceit worked.

This story is relevant as obituaries for McNamara this week tended to emphasize his acknowledgment of the error of his ways. but, as Porter’s interactions show, McNamara never really came to terms with what he had done. Likely, self-deception won in the end.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-scheer/mcnamaras-evil-lives-on_b_227522.html
McNamara's Evil Lives On
July 8, 2009


Why not speak ill of the dead?

Robert McNamara, who died this week, was a complex man -- charming even, in a blustery way, and someone I found quite thoughtful when I interviewed him. In the third act of his life he was often an advocate for enlightened positions on world poverty and the dangers of the nuclear arms race. But whatever his better nature, it was the stark evil he perpetrated as secretary of defense that must indelibly frame our memory of him.

To not speak out fully because of respect for the deceased would be to mock the memory of the millions of innocent people McNamara caused to be maimed and killed in a war that he later freely admitted never made any sense. Much has been made of the fact that he recanted his support for the war, but that came 20 years after the holocaust he visited upon Vietnam was over.

Is holocaust too emotionally charged a word? How many millions of dead innocent civilians does it take to qualify labels like holocaust, genocide or terrorism? How many of the limbless victims of his fragmentation bombs and land mines whom I saw in Vietnam during and after the war? Or are America's leaders always to be exempted from such questions? Perhaps if McNamara had been held legally accountable for his actions, the architects of the Iraq debacle might have paused.

Instead, McNamara was honored with the Medal of Freedom by President Lyndon Johnson, to whom he had written a private memo nine months earlier offering this assessment of their Vietnam carnage: "The picture of the world's greatest superpower killing or seriously injuring 1,000 noncombatants a week, while trying to pound a tiny backward nation into submission on an issue whose merits are hotly disputed, is not a pretty one."

He knew it then, and, give him this, the dimensions of that horror never left him. When I interviewed him for the Los Angeles Times in 1995, after the publication of his confessional memoir, his assessment of the madness he had unleashed was all too clear:

"Look, we dropped three to four times the tonnage on that tiny little area as were dropped by the Allies in all of the theaters in World War II over a period of five years. It was unbelievable. We killed -- there were killed -- 3,200,000 Vietnamese, excluding the South Vietnamese military. My God! The killing, the tonnage -- it was fantastic. The problem was that we were trying to do something that was militarily impossible -- we were trying to break the will; I don't think we can break the will by bombing short of genocide."

We -- no, he -- couldn't break their will because their fight was for national independence. They had defeated the French and would defeat the Americans who took over when French colonialists gave up the ghost. The war was a lie from the first. It never had anything to do with the freedom of the Vietnamese (we installed one tyrant after another in power), but instead had to do with our irrational Cold War obsession with "international communism." Irrational, as President Richard Nixon acknowledged when he embraced détente with the Soviet communists, toasted China's fierce communist Mao Tse-tung and then escalated the war against "communist" Vietnam and neutral Cambodia.

It was always a lie and our leaders knew it, but that did not give them pause. Both Johnson and Nixon make it quite clear on their White House tapes that the mindless killing, McNamara's infamous body count, was about domestic politics and never security.

The lies are clearly revealed in the Pentagon Papers study that McNamara commissioned, but they were made public only through the bravery of Daniel Ellsberg. Yet when Ellsberg, a former Marine who had worked for McNamara in the Pentagon, was in the docket facing the full wrath of Nixon's Justice Department, McNamara would lift not a finger in his defense. Worse, as Ellsberg reminded me this week, McNamara threatened that if subpoenaed to testify at the trial by Ellsberg's defense team, "I would hurt your client badly."

Not as badly as those he killed or severely wounded. Not as badly as the almost 59,000 American soldiers killed and the many more horribly hurt. One of them was the writer and activist Ron Kovic, who as a kid from Long Island was seduced by McNamara's lies into volunteering for two tours in Vietnam. Eventually, struggling with his mostly paralyzed body, he spoke out against the war in the hope that others would not have to suffer as he did (and still does). Meanwhile, McNamara maintained his golden silence, even as Richard Nixon managed to kill and maim millions more. What McNamara did was evil -- deeply so.

Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

luckee1

  • Guest
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 10:51:16 pm »
What has they got to do with BOB.M

I'm sorry but I don't get the connection, maby I'm going soft.

Uncle Ho (as the Vietnamese refered to him), did I spell that right. Was a commie, he was also willing to deal with the USA in any way possible to avoid a confrontation. This guy was educated, he desired his country united.

This freak running the show, this so called leader, I know nothing about him.

I do know that I was in Ho's family territory, Tay Ninh and Trang Bang. I walked his familys cemetary plot, saw his grandmothers grave,  The peasants wanted Ho, communist or not, they didn't give a shit. He was for the people, Ya, I'm defending him.
I remember Prez THIEU and his wife the dragon lady, nice folks if you like sadistical sociopaths.

These people at that time had their day with the French shortly before, they had been at war with nations for decades.

Kennedy held to the aggreement of support to stop communism, to support DEMOCRACY,  but if Thieu was a righteous leader i will eat my computer.

Strange we label, and label, I agree that the North were bastards to the South after the war needed, and presumibly still are. I am not defending their actions, I detest them.

Just as I detest the fact we lost 60,000 of Americans sons to a made up endless war for profit plus the same number or more who killed themsleves after coming back stateside. and for the 3 Million we killed in that country.

I still miss the connection, is it that this document is stating we should have remained and liberated the south, if so we would still be there.

The profit made from these deaths, yes deaths, bodycounts, is beyond our imagination.

I'm not making my point, but I am aggitated. JFK wanted out of Nam and so stated 3 months before he was killed, why, he knew the MIC was going to use this, continue it untill they bled the nations dry and fortified their power and grabbed the profits..

He may have been advised by many to put Thieu in office, a pysco puppet, egomaniac, and sadisticaly cruel and greed ridden bag of shiiite. But in the final analysis he saw though the BS and wanted out. This and his actions with the FED got him tagged.

If we had used our brains rather than our bombs, had we seen throguh the curtain of deception, none of this bullshiite would have happened.

Please remember one thing, we judge the wrongs of others as if we are the righteous, we are not, nor are the regime in Nam

We invaded, as you well know, a innocent nation IRAQ , killing 1,364,000 human being in our search for WMD's. We torture at will, kill at will, and grid bomb. By the way , most of these killed were civilians, I have read statistics ranging from 78% to 88%. That means, familys, woman, children, infants, and innocent men.

Again, these mind bents are killing what was their former enemy, and have erected their pysco camps, I despise that as much as the author of your post. However let us weigh in the balance the death we have wrought upon them also.

Lets clean up our house first. In fact lets remove the rat infested regime. Once done, once we regain our honor, perhaps then we can judge the cruelty imposed in other nations.

Bob M. was a clever man, a suk up to his superiors, but covering himslef with answers expected of him.

I have to see that video, Fogs of War. Sorry for ranting but there is much , much more to this tale, this is but a taste of the truth.

You have borne witness to the most atrocious era our country has had.  Man!

Offline TahoeBlue

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,280
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 10:59:39 pm »
We were set up by our own.... another Mc - McCain

http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm
John McCain: The Manchurian Candidate
By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
December 1992 Issue


...
WARM HUG FOR THE ENEMY

November of 1991, when Tracy Usry, the former chief investigator of the Minority Staff of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, testified before the Select Committee, he revealed that the Soviets interrogated U.S. prisoners of war in Vietnam. Sen. McCain became outraged interrupting Usry several times, arguing that "none of the returned U.S. prisoners of war released by Vietnam were ever interrogated by the Soviets." However, this was simply not true and Sen. McCain knows that from firsthand experience.

Col. Bui Tin, a former Senior Colonel in the North Vietnamese Army, testified on the same day, but after Usry, that because of his high position in the Communist Party during the war, he had the authority to "read all documents and secret telegrams from the politburo" pertaining to American prisoners of war. He said that not only did the Soviets interrogate some American prisoners of war, but that they treated the Americans very badly.

Bui Tin, who indicated he favored a normalization of relations between the U.S. and Vietnam, also offered the committee his records concerning his personal interrogations of American POWs.

Sen. McCain stunned onlookers at the hearing when he moved forward to the witness table and warmly embraced Bui Tin as if he was a long, lost brother.

In any case, many of McCain's fellow Vietnam War POWs were aghast, not to mention former POWs of World War II and Korea, who could, only in some instances after decades, forgive but never forget the inhumanity of their captors--certainly not to the point of embracing them.

Shortly thereafter, as a direct result of Sen. McCain's lobbying of other Republican Senators, Usry, a distinguished Vietnam veteran, and all other members of the Minority Staff, who had participated in the POW/MIA investigations, were abruptly fired.

If the Senate Select Committee finds it pertinent to investigate alleged instances of "fraud" by POW/MIA activists, then certainly, by even the most liberal standards, the charge of collaboration with the enemy by a "high-ranking naval" officer should be investigated just as seriously as were the charges against Marine Private Robert Garwood, the only American POW charged and convicted of this crime.

THE ADMIRAL'S SON

John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone on August 29, 1936. His father was Admiral John McCain II, who became commander-in-chief of the Pacific forces in 1968. Admiral McCain later ordered the bombing of Hanoi while his son was in prison. His grandfather was Admiral John S. McCain, Sr., the famous commander of aircraft carriers in the Pacific under Admiral William F. Halsey in World War II
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline Dig

  • All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man.
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63,090
    • Git Ureself Edumacated
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2009, 11:12:32 pm »
mcnamara did what johnson never could, warn the american public about the fog of war.

lbj knew tonkin was bs.

lbj blew kennedy's head off to appease the mic. and then killed mlk for his speech about vietnam

may he f**king rot in hell
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

Offline bigron

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,124
  • RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT 2012
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2009, 06:35:00 am »
Published on Thursday, July 23, 2009 by The Bangor Daily News (Maine)


US Lurching from One Quagmire to Another


by John Buell



Robert McNamara's life may illuminate contemporary tragedy. Just weeks before McNamara died, President Obama pressured reluctant Democrats (kudos to Reps. Mike Michaud and Chellie Pingree for resisting) to approve a strange hybrid coupling of Afghanistan war funds with billions for the International Monetary Fund.

This was war funding paired with a deceptive offering to the gods of peace, a resume of McNamara's career. This ultimate war technocrat morphed into a World Bank president. In the latter role he employed global financial institutions as the velvet glove to complement the iron fist of military power.

Today, we lurch from one quagmire to another. Echoes of the domino theory and Viet Cong fearmongering can be heard as this president prepares us for his war. He assures us: "We are not in Afghanistan to dictate its future. We are in Afghanistan to confront a common enemy that threatens the United States, our friends and allies." All we are missing now are McNamara's kill ratios and body counts.

Even the mainstream media detect reason for caution. The New York Times has reported that the Afghan and Pakistan Taliban are burying their differences in response to U.S. military escalation. In addition, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace argues that the most important factor behind the resurgence of the Taliban is the presence of foreign forces in Afghanistan.

As for the current power of the Taliban, Middle Eastern scholar Juan Cole pointed out: "They have no air force, no artillery, no tanks. They are just small bands."

As in Vietnam, the U.S. supports reactionaries in order to prevail in the conflict it fanned. Cole points out: "The U.S. has [installed] a fundamentalist government which is rolling back rights of women through Shiite personal status law." The wife needs the husband's permission to leave home and can't refuse demands for sex.

Even in retreat, McNamara hardly modeled genuine penitence, which involves abrogating some power and wealth. His World Bank fought poverty by making unprecedented loans to Latin America, leaving nations deeply in debt and with very unequal social systems. U.S. capitalists profited. When world oil prices skyrocketed in the '70s, he lent more money - with harsh restrictions preventing government aid to the poor.

Obama now gives the secretive IMF money to bail European bankers. Western European central bankers, their own economies floundering, are unwilling to take the political risk of aiding Eastern Europe. Obama is rejecting the difficult but potentially more rewarding task of U.S.-European collaboration on bigger joint stimulus packages, international banking regulation and reform of the IMF. He aids bankers through the IMF elite even as the European economy stagnates.

If there is a lesson in McNamara's life, it is one I borrow from Amherst College professor Tom Dumm: "The United States is facing a decline, as is inevitable for imperial power. [How] that decline is to be addressed

needs to be at the heart of this presidency."

Obama's rhetoric is softer than Bush's, but he evades the requirements of habeas corpus and opposes efforts to examine abuses of the Bush "terror war." Dumm reminds us that every modern president has committed major violations of the Constitution. "These have been connected to foreign policy, but they are also implicated in the politics of globalization and the Cold War. Presidents felt frustrated either by statutory constraints, or by the slowness of Congress to approve, or by the need to wave bloody flags in order to get Congress to move.

"We believe in the Constitution, and we believe in the special fate of America. But we've not necessarily been well served by either belief during the past half-century. Obama may need to imitate another great leader who has managed the decline of an imperial power, without destroying the world. Mikhail Gorbachev led the Russian people past a system of government that no longer could be imagined to serve them."

With Dumm, I believe that the U.S. needs to learn a little humility. It must question its sense of itself as special, acknowledge that its democracy is flawed and archaic, that it has played a major role in causing turmoil in the Middle East and finally that the Washington consensus it seeks to impose on others damages not only them but even many of its most vulnerable citizens.

© 2009 The Bangor Daily News
John Buell is a political economist who lives in Southwest Harbor. Readers may reach him at [email protected] [1].

 



Article printed from www.CommonDreams.org

URL to article: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/23

Offline TahoeBlue

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,280
Re: Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara Dies
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2013, 02:30:51 pm »
bump for memorial day
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5