NORMAN.JIM
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The following is a Radio Interview between James Norman, formerly Senior
Editor of Forbes Magazine and now with Media Bypass Magazine and Jim
Quinn DJ of WRRK 96.9 FM in Pittsburgh. In this interview from December
7th, they discuss issues of national importance and STUNNING IMPACT.
Essentially they give out the reason for Vincent Fosters Death, and the
fact that the "resignations" of the Congresscritters is NOT for policy
reasons but because they have been caught with millions in corrupt funds
in Swiss Banks. Read this to learn what the "mainstream media" doesn't
ever tell you...
Quinn's Interview with Jim Norman
QUINN: Jim Norman, former Senior Editor at Forbes Magazine, and
currently writing for Media Bypass Magazine after having uncovered
Caspar Weinberger's Swiss bank account (we do get punished for some of
the truths we uncover,do we not?). Jim is on the phone with us this
morning. Good Morning, Jim.
NORMAN: Hi, how are you?
QUINN: Pretty good. I want to give people a chance to get an idea of
what it is we are going to launch into after 8 o'clock, and I want to
give some background into this. Is it fair to say that since Iran
Contra that the government has sort of been involved in the drug
business?
NORMAN: Yes, it goes way back before then, actually. It goes back even
to the Vietnam War days -- remember the Golden Triangle, Laos, Cambodia
and all that, Pakistan and Afghanistan, but it was always on a much
smaller scale. What apparently happened was that in the 80s we got into
it in a big way, basically nationalizing the wholesale importation of
drugs from Central and South America. The idea was that we control it
somehow that way; instead, it has just become the tail wagging the dog,
I think.
QUINN: It's become the funding source for just about anything that the
government covertly wants to do, and for the moneys that various
elements of the government don't want to ask the congress for, nor do
they want congress to know about.
NORMAN: Right. And it's an arms business, too. They are kind of all
tied up together.
QUINN: So it's arms and drugs?
NORMAN: Right.
QUINN: Kenneth Starr is currently our Whitewater prosecutor, and I have
long said on this show that I find Ken Starrr interesting but also
troubling in that there are many elements to the Whitewater scandal.
Part of the laments have to do with banking and have to do with Madison
Savings and Loan, check kiting, stuff that went on with the Arkansas
Development Financial Authority, but basically there are really two
elements -- there is Whitewater and then there is all the stuff with
Mena Airport, Iran Contra, drugs into the country, various unexplained
deaths, one of them Vince Foster, the possibility of espionage on the
part of the first lady, and all of this lies behind a brick wall that
Mr. Starr has been positioned upon to make sure that they get Clinton
but that the fire doesn't burn past that wall; because on the other side
of that wall are Republicans and Democrats. Am I right?
NORMAN: That's right. He is not looking at Mena; he doesn't have the
authority to from Janet Reno. He does have authority to look at the
Vince Foster death, but I think only inasmuch as it relates to the
Whitewater situation. The whole thing is hemmed in and beyond that is
this whole national security blanket that has been thrown over big parts
of this thing that you couldn't touch if you wanted to.
QUINN: It's interesting, I find, that Dr. Henry Lee, who was part of
the defense team for the Simpson trial, has ended up working on the
Vince Foster affair. The word that I get is that he is going to say it
was indeed a suicide. You have to remember something about Dr. Henry
Lee -- he was, oddly enough, the guy that was called in to do some work
on the Danny Casalaro death down in Martinsburg, WV back in the early
nineties. Was it 1991?
NORMAN: I think it was 1991.
QUINN: This was that reporter that you may have heard about that was
found dead in a motel room, supposedly from a self-inflicted wound, even
though the papers (a year's worth of investigative reporting) were all
missing. He was working on the story that he called the "octopus" and
basically it's the same story that you are working on, isn't it?
NORMAN: Yes, I know I'm talking to a lot of the same sources. Danny
supposedly slashed his wrists twelve times, sometimes deep enough to cut
the tendon.
QUINN: Yeah, right. And his files were all missing. Sure, there's a
suicide. Right. And they embalmed his body before they even had a
chance to inform his parents that he was dead.
So it's another "Arkanside."
NORMAN: George Williamson, who is an investigative reporter out of San
Francisco, has been working on that. He has come up with all kinds of
stuff -- other witnesses that have disappeared, people in the hotel who
just aren't there anymore -- disappeared mysteriously.
QUINN: It's interesting. There are a lot of people who are witnesses to
various deaths involved with this Arkansas crowd, Danny Casalaro for
one. Also, the two young boys on the railroad tracks down in Arkansas
who stumbled on the drug operation. A lot of the witnesses around that
have met violent and untimely deaths as well. So here are a great deal
of ugly people involved in this. We are going to get down to what it
all means in terms of government corruption and scandal of immense
proportions that touch both parties. This is really nonpartisan. The
fact that I don't happen to like "President Pantload" doesn't have a
whole lot to do with this; he was just sort of a guy who happened to be
there with his hand out at the time. It all goes back to the late 70's,
right Jim?
NORMAN: Yeah, and even before that. Let's start with the early 80s when
Bill Casey came into office in the CIA under Ronald Reagan. That's when
our government decided to embark on this amazing and extremely
unbelievably successful effort to spy on the world's banks. We did it!
We have been spying on world banking transactions for more than a dozen
years. The way we do it is by basically forcing foreign banks,
wittingly or unwittingly, to buy bugged software and bugged computers
that let our NSA (National Security Agency) which is the intelligence
arm of the government, to basically surveil wire transfers all over the
globe.
QUINN: Let me ask you this. How do you sucker the rest of the banking
community around the globe into buying the software that you are
selling?
NORMAN: First of all you sell to front companies like this company
Systematics in Arkansas, now called Alltel Information Services. They
had another company called Boston Systematics, an affiliate based in
Israel mainly. There is Robert Maxwell, the UK publisher, who is
fronting this stuff. There are a whole bunch of people fronting this.
QUINN: Wait a minute, Robert Maxwell -- isn't he dead?
NORMAN: Yeah, he is now.
QUINN: Didn't he have an unfortunate accident?
NORMAN: Fell off his yacht in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere.
QUINN: Why, isn't that amazing!
NORMAN: The tinkering of it was mainly putting back doors, just a few
lines of code, that would allow somebody to dial into a computer without
leaving any footprints, any audit trail that you were in there. Then
you could go around and look around in files or you could collect
information from a system without the user even knowing it
QUINN: Now this software, which was originally called Promise, was
stolen from a company called Inslaw by the Justice Department. It ended
up somewhere, probably at E Systems or somewhere, and it was converted
into banking software. It Started out as software designed to track
prosecutorial cases around the country. My question is -- Why didn't Ed
Meese just pay the damn bill, and none of this would ever have come to
light! Danny Casalaro was chasing the stolen software when he stumbled
on what it was being used for.
NORMAN: Well, the trouble with it was that they bought it for use in the
Justice Department, but they were going to use it all over the place.
If they were paying royalties on it, Inslaw would know just how
extensive the use was of the software, and they didn't want people to
know how extensively it was going to be used.
QUINN: I see...
NORMAN: Plus, a lot of the profits from the resale of this went back
into private profits. It was customized and resold to the intelligence
community. It became sort of a basic platform database tracking system
for most of our intelligence agencies and many of those abroad. The
idea was "Well, we can all talk to each other now." In fact what it has
allowed us to do is basically rifle through other people's data files
abroad too, because the stuff was apparently being sold to foreign
intelligence agencies and it was also bugged. We have other ways of
basically surveilling and downloading foreign electronic databases. The
whole computer world is much more porous and transparent than anybody
wants you to believe.
QUINN: There is a bank here that I know that uses this software right
here in this town, and I'm sure that there is probably more than one.
Everybody's got it.
NORMAN: In some form or another. It goes under different names now.
It's been modified many times. I think when Inslaw had it, it was a
half million lines of code. I'm told now it's a couple of million lines
anyway. It's gone through many, many modifications over the years.
QUINN: This company, Systematics, which is I believe still 8% owned by
Jackson Stevens at Stevens Inc., who, by the way, is one of the backers
of Bob Dole -- how troubling is that?
NORMAN: He is the co-chairman of Dole's finance committee.
QUINN: That's right! Bob's in town -- Hi Bob -- You'd better explain
this. You'd better explain Mena, too, Bob or it's going to follow you
to the White House. Systematics, I understand, had an attorney who was
kind of off the record doing work for them, named Vince Foster. Is that
true?
NORMAN: Yep, that's true. We've heard that from many, many sources
now. In fact, Jim Leach's committee has established that pretty well
with some of the investigation that they have done. Foster was a
trusted deal guy for Stevens at the law firm. Although Foster never
shows up officially as an attorney of record for Systematics, he was
definitely in the loop, basically smoothing out things between
Systematics and the NSA, which was the main government agency that was
contracting for a lot of this stuff.
QUINN: So this is how Foster got involved in intelligence, right.
NORMAN: Yes, because there is heavy duty code and computer technology
stuff involved here. Apparently, some time in the early 80s he
developed this relationship with the State of Israel. In fact, some of
the same handlers I am told were involved in the Jonathan Pollard case.
They basically nurtured him and groomed him for many years and then
bingo, they hit the jackpot -- he ended up in the White House.
Apparently he convinced Hillary to help him out on some stuff.
QUINN: So... what is Foster involved in? It's the mid 80s...
NORMAN: Mid 80s. Foster is at the Rose Law Firm. Think of him as a
high- level marketing guy between Systematics and the NSA. NSA -- they
have all these spooky contracts that they are trying to find contractors
for. Foster would have been sort of a go-between there. Plus Hillary
was actually an attorney of record for Systematics back in 1978 when
Stevens tried to take over the Financial General Bank shares in
Washington. Those bank holding companies later became First American -
Clark Clifford, Robert Altman, all that crowd.
QUINN: Yeah, the BCCI thing.
NORMAN: Stevens was fronting for the BCCI crowd and trying to take over
this Washington Bank Holding Co. The SEC blocked him at the time,
partly because one of the things he was insisting on was that this
company Systematics which at that time was a tiny little thing in
Arkansas, he was insisting that they be brought in to do all of the data
processing for this multistate bank holding company in Washington.
Hillary represented Systematics in that. Now the thing about
Systematics at the time -- it was before they even got involved with the
bank spying stuff. Abroad for many years, they had been what amounted
to a Laundromat for covert funds for the CIA and the intelligence
community, quite legally, probably. It was done for the national
interest. Somebody had to move this money around and Systematics was in
a perfect place to do it because they owned the computers and a whole
bunch of small banks. They could move this money around electronically
without the bankers even knowing about it necessarily, and it wouldn't
go through the normal clearing houses. The regulators wouldn't see it.
It would just crop up wherever the CIA needed it in whatever bogus front
company account, and it was all just bits and bytes; it was a
cyberbank -- it still is.
QUINN: I'm here with Jim Norman, former Senior Editor at Forbes
Magazine. You know, it's interesting, here is a guy who was with Forbes
Magazine, a respected senior editor who figured probably this would be
his life's work. All of a sudden, he finds himself a defrocked commando
journalist working for Media Bypass Magazine out of what Evanston,
Illinois, or somewhere in Indiana?
NORMAN: Indiana.
QUINN: Yeah, that's right. Now, I got a question. Before we get into
Vince Foster in the mid 80s and Hillary Clinton's role in this, how did
you get onto this whole scandal? Where did you walk through the door on
this?
NORMAN: I came in the back door completely. Look, I had no ax to grind
here against Bill Clinton or the Administration. I hated covering
politics. I thought it was all baloney. I'm just a business writer,
and I never wanted to get enmeshed in this whole Whitewater/Vince Foster
thing, but I started for a couple of years I had been following this oil
company bankruptcy up in Stanford, Connecticut, because I had covered
oil. This thing never made sense to me. There is no reason why this
company went bust and, in fact, when I actually got into it and started
redoing the oil trading transactions, the reason they lost money: they
weren't losing it. They were hiding it. They were parking it off shore
with another company that was financing arms sales to Iraq, cluster
bombs and stuff like that all through the 80s. And, this Chilean arms
dealer, Cardone, who was providing weapons, was also it turns out
brokering some of the sales of this stolen software. Okay, that gets me
into the software story.
QUINN: So that gets you onto the Promise software, and you and Danny
Casalaro are now on the same road.
NORMAN: Right, and then in the process of that, I Started talking to a
whole bunch of rather spooky, strange intelligence community characters,
and I was sitting at a guy's living room down in Kentucky one day. He
was sitting there in the middle of the night blowing smoke rings, and he
said, "yo by the way, Vince Foster, he was under investigation." I
said, "under investigation, for what?" And, he said, "well, it's
spelled 'Espionage.'" BOINK!!...and that's how I got on this whole Vince
Foster thing.
QUINN: So that's how it happened?
NORMAN: Yeah.
QUINN: Okay, now here it is, the mid 80s. Vince Foster is working for
Systematics, and he is coming into contact with the intelligence
community. What is, how did Hillary Clinton and the Israeli Mossad and
all of this come together and what happened?
NORMAN: Well, I think that they had been...look the Israelis were key
partners with us in this bank spying effort. This is a joint allied
government effort, and the Israelis were one of the key front people in
this in selling and supporting this software all over the world so that
people weren't thinking they were getting the software directly from the
U.S. You know, there was an Israeli front company used to sell this
stuff to foreign banks.
QUINN: Well, they sold it to the Moscow bank. I know that.
NORMAN: Well, Systematics did, yeah, and Systematics got involved in
supporting this stuff all over the world, a little company in
Arkansas...go figure. Come on.
QUINN: Yeah, really.
NORMAN: I mean, main software people, they operate in New York and
places like that and not out of Podonk, Arkansas. So, at any rate, the
Israelis had ties into this whole thing all along, and, you know, they
are our friends. We do give them a lot of stuff and share a lot of
stuff.
QUINN: Well, the whole idea was to track terrorist money, and the
Israelis have a great interest in that, and rightly so. There is no
problem here.
NORMAN: The name of this problem was "follow the money for terrorist
reasons," but once you set that up, you can do all kinds of stuff with
it. I mean, we were spying on everybody's money. I think that's
probably how we helped bust the Soviet Union. We found out just how
deep their pockets were, where their money was, who we could bribe. You
know, acting as a financial destruction of their society more than
anything.
QUINN: So, how does Foster get involved in espionage?
NORMAN: Well, I think it was money. Money, money, money. And,
especially you know with this whole political thing, it takes so much
money to run for office. I mean, my theory is that the actual spending
is probably twice of what anybody declares when you add up all of the
soft dollars and everything. I think there is a tremendous need for
money there, and they just weren't real cautious about where it was
coming from. I think this thing about selling state secrets to the
Israeli's and other countries was just a business. It was just for
money. I don't think there was any ideology involved here at all, and
it was one of many businesses. There is also insider trading going on
here. There was the kickback on drugs and arms stuff and so the money
has to go...you have to hide it some way so it goes into Swiss bank
accounts. And Foster would have known that yeah we're tracking this
money off shore, but there is such a blizzard of information that unless
somebody knows exactly what they are looking for they would never find
anything. They thought they could cover this up pretty well so Foster
had...actually he had several accounts, and there was one in particular
in this bank, bank at Villa Switsaria Italiano in Chaso on the Italian
border. It is a little kind of a mafia kind of community there reputed,
and so he was taking the money in there for the payments from the
Swiss. He was going to Geneva every six or eight months, and his
curious one-day trips - I don't think it was for sightseeing.
QUINN: No. I'm sure he wasn't doing any real estate work for Arkansas.
NORMAN: No. The whole thing about money laundering is...you know the
money would go into a Swiss bank. Somebody would have to go physically
and take it out and take it to a friendly bonded dealer or something
like that, buy bearer bonds or other kinds of bonds or something that
you could pledge as collateral for loans back in the states and turn it
back into cash again legitimately, and so that is how money laundering
works. Vince, in effect, was a bag man here because when they go to the
White House all of a sudden they hit the jackpot. There was so much
more goodies there, and, in fact, Deborah Goram, Foster's executive
assistant, testified under oath that Foster had given her two, inch-
thick ring binders from the National Security Agency to put in Bernie
Nussbaum's safe in the White House. What were these binders? Well, I
have talked to brokering experts on this stuff, and they say, "look,
when you are talking NSA binders in the White House, you are talking
mainly one thing, and these are the codes and protocol by which the
President authenticates himself when he has to call up the Pentagon to
say let's go nuke somebody." Now, what was Foster doing with these
things? He had no business with them. He would have had no access to
them. It would have to come from somebody with access to the Oval
Office or the Presidential living quarters.
QUINN: And, who would that be?
NORMAN: Well, I think we know who we are talking about here.
QUINN: We're talking about Hillary Clinton, aren't we?
NORMAN: That's right. She has been under investigation in this whole
thing, too, but I think that they had a strong case against Vince and
not such a strong case against Hillary. But, you see what happened was
and this is another whole part of the story as to how they got onto
Foster. Basically, there was a team of computer hackers and computer
intelligence guys in the CIA who were going through most databases.
They found names there that they identified as being Foster and
Hillary. They put them under surveillance actually before they went to
the White House. I think it was between the election and the time that
they went to the White House, and that's when the alarm bells went off.
They had been surveilling these accounts for a while, and when Foster on
July 1, 1993 bought a ticket to Geneva, a round-trip one-day ticket to
Geneva, these guys said, "oops, he's going to take the money. We're
going to beat him to it." And, they went in. They hacked their way into
the bank and obtained the necessary authorization codes on this coded
account for which no signature is required to withdraw money, by the
way.
QUINN: Right.
NORMAN: They were able to effect their own technically legitimate wire
transfer of this money back to the U.S. Treasury where it sits in a
holding account escrowed for use by the CIA.
QUINN: So, the CIA empties Vince Foster's Swiss bank account of its
ill-gotten money.
NORMAN: Yeah, actually it wasn't the CIA. It was this sort of renegade
vigilante group of guys they called the Fifth Column that has been out
doing this stuff. They don't take any of the money for themselves. The
money goes to the...
QUINN: They just do it for fun?
NORMAN: The CIA only gets the money. It is escrowed for use by the CIA
but only when the CIA gets rid of a bunch of its bad apples there who've
got dirty hands from drug kickbacks, arms.
QUINN: Let's pick this story up. There was a meeting just before Vince
Foster died on the eastern shore of Maryland in which Webster Hubble,
Vince Foster, and some others were present. Okay, this was just before
Foster died. Pick up the story here.
NORMAN: All right. Well, we mentioned July 1, 1993, Foster buys this
round-trip ticket to Switzerland. They raid his account. They take
out $2.73 million. Foster apparently calls up the bank to let them know
he was coming. They say, "Oh, Vince don't you know you took the money
out already?" Boing...that's when he found out he was under
investigation. That's when he got so mysteriously depressed. It had
nothing to do with editorials in the Wall Street Journal. He had his
bank account raided big time, and he knew he was under surveillance, or
he knew he was under investigation. And, that Started this curious
chain of events. Webster Hubble testified that not so much Vince was
depressed, but he was worried. He was afraid to use the White House
telephones. The guy had heart palpitations. He couldn't sleep at
night. His doctor gave him a prescription for sleeping pills. His
sister tried to get him to talk to some psychiatrist. He never got in
touch with them. Instead, he hired a high-powered lawyer in Washington,
Jim Hamilton, this big deal white-collar crime fix-it guy who handles
people who get hauled up for Congressional hearings. And, then there is
this curious meeting the weekend before Foster died. He and his wife,
Lisa, go down to the eastern shore of Maryland for a getaway weekend,
and then, by coincidence, they meet Hubble and his wife down there.
Hubble, also from the Rose Law Firm, at the time the country's de-facto
top law enforcement law officer because Janet Reno in effect was taking
her orders from Hubble. They go over to the estate of Michael Cardoza
who is the son-in-law of Nathan Landau, a big deal Democratic
fund-raiser, and Cardoza is also the head of Clinton's legal defense
fund. Supposedly, this was all poolside chit chat. Baloney, it was
damage control. They were trying to figure out how to contain this
scandal from spreading to other people in the White House, and they were
trying to lean on Vince to get him to, you know, cop a plea, go quietly,
or shut up and don't talk about it. And, in fact, what my sources have
told me is that there was actually a huge payment made to an account
held by Lisa Foster with more than $286,000 on the Friday before that
meeting.
QUINN: Wait a minute, on the Friday before that meeting, Lisa Foster's
bank account gets a deposit of $286 million?
NORMAN: $286,000, yeah.
QUINN: I'm sorry, yeah $286,000. Okay, so does she take it out?
NORMAN: Well, I don't know what ever happened to that money. It is hard
to tell where it came from even. It is all very mysterious to me, but
it sure smells like hush money to me. It's like, "look Vince, don't
worry, we'll take care of your money."
QUINN: You don't know if she wrote a check on it?
NORMAN: Well, I'm told that it came through the hands somehow of Sheila
Anthony, who was Foster's sister and at the time she was a
"congressional liaison" person at the Justice Department, whatever a
congressional liaison is.
QUINN: So she takes the money to Foster, and Foster turns it down?
NORMAN: Well, no...I think he probably accepted it, or it went there.
But, apparently, he was having second thoughts, I think. You know, on
the Monday after they came back from this meeting, the records showed,
the public records showed, that he has a parade of people coming by his
office in the White House saying, "hey, how'd your weekend go, Vince?
You cool with this? I mean, you on board with all of this? Everything
okay?" you know. Then,...
QUINN: A lot of very nervous people in the White House.
NORMAN: That's right. Then, the day he died he had like a two-hour
meeting with another person from the Arkansas contingent there. I think
the problem was that they were afraid that Vince was going to talk or
that he was going to crack under questioning, and here's a guy who was
now, at this point, under intense surveillance. I mean, he had not only
CIA counter intelligence people, but you had NSA. You had FBI
surveilling him. There was a four-person IRS team we know was assigned
to tail this guy, probably in connection with the money laundering
aspect of the Swiss bank account.
QUINN: God, this thing's got everything but floats in the....I mean all
they need is Goofy, a big balloon with ropes on it following this guy
around.
NORMAN: You almost did. I mean, you had the Secret Service with a
bomb-sniffing dog squad out there checking his car in the parking lot.
The video tapes of that gone. The video tapes of the room where they
are stored, gone. I mean, this whole thing is massively covered up, and
I guess it is for national security reasons.
QUINN: Well now, I understand that Foster had a meeting scheduled with
Bill Clinton. I believe it was on a Wednesday.
NORMAN: Right.
QUINN: And, it was the Tuesday he was killed.
NORMAN: Right. Exactly. The question is well, gee, was he going to
drop something in the President's lap and blow the plausible deniability
that he might have on this stuff.
QUINN: Well, this Foster suicide thing is so sloppy. It leads me to
believe that on Tuesday they thought he would take the money and shut
up, and he didn't take it so they had to do something real quick.
NORMAN: Well, that could be it or that even if he wanted to shut up
maybe they were afraid he would crack under interrogation or something.
You know, it is just somebody wanted him real dead, and there is a bunch
of people who had ample reason for it. This was not suicide. It was
not over depression. This was a political assassination carried out on
U.S. soil by foreign government. The Israelis were involved in this.
There was apparently a three person Masad contracted team that went into
the apartment that Foster had gone to that afternoon where he was
apparently lured by a female person from the White House staff who I
think still works in the White House.
QUINN: Now, who would that be?
NORMAN: Well, I...
QUINN: Because, he had sex with her?
NORMAN: That's the impression, yeah.
QUINN: I mean, there was semen on his shorts. There was brownish-blonde
hair on his clothing and rug fibers all over him which may or may not
have had to do with having sex on the floor. It might have been...
NORMAN: No, I think that was because he was rolled up in a rug
afterwards and taken over to Fort Marcy Park. Now, the question is were
elements of our intelligence community involved in helping to dispose of
the body and cover it up some way?
QUINN: Who is the woman in the White House?
NORMAN: I can't say.
QUINN: Patsy Thomason?
NORMAN: No. I don't want to say. I suspect...
QUINN: Dee Dee. Well, she's not there anymore.
NORMAN: That name is known. I mean, she has been identified on these
tapes apparently, but....
QUINN: I think Dee Dee and Bill are doing it, but that's just me.
Anyway, let's get back to the story here. Okay, so I understand at
least you are claiming that there is a videotape of Foster's murder?
NORMAN: Well, of the people entering and leaving this apartment a few
blocks from the White House where it apparently occurred.
QUINN: Has anybody located this apartment? Do you know where it is?
NORMAN: I don't know exactly where it is myself. I am told it is
actually within a few blocks of the White House.
QUINN: Okay, so they lure him here, and they pop him, and there is a
videotape of it or there is a videotape of the people going in and out.
Then, they go to Fort Marcy Park, and they dump him.
NORMAN: Right.
QUINN: Okay, and we've got a witness now that says they saw the two guys
that fit the same description that Patrick Knowlton, the other witness,
to Foster's car. He describes the one guy that threatens him. One of
those people is one of the two that supposedly was walking Foster, who
looked drunk to this guy, into the park, but he says that they laid him
out.
NORMAN: Yeah. I don't know too much about all that stuff, but what I
know is this that Paul Rodriguez is the Editor of Insight Magazine that
came up with this Mr. X source. When Forbes decided not to run the
story for reasons that were kind of mysterious to me at the time and
while I was still there, they gave me permission to publish it
elsewhere. And, as I approached Insight because they are kind of a
gutsy magazine, David Rodriguez made a whole bunch of calls around
Washington trying to corroborate this stuff, and I think he was making
some headway. Then, he gets this visit in person from some military
intelligence guy from the Pentagon who comes to him and says, "Paul, lay
off this story. You don't know what you're dealing with here."
QUINN: No. I think we do know what we are dealing with here. We're
dealing with the biggest scandal since maybe...
NORMAN: And, you got Israeli relations at stake here. You know, the
intelligence community has a lot of joint ventures with the Israelis.
They don't want to "queer" those things. I mean, we do business with
those people a lot, and you know a lot of it is probably quite necessary
but you know there is a scandal here that dwarfs the Jonathan Pollard
case by orders of magnitude really.
QUINN: I want to discuss a couple of things with you. First of all, now
it would appear that a bunch of Republicans picking Kenneth Starr to put
him in charge of this investigation of Vince Foster and the Whitewater
problem in Washington, D.C. On the surface, it looked like they were
going for the jugular, but see Mr. Starr has some background that leads
back to the Inslaw case we discussed earlier in the show about the
Promise software and stuff. He excused himself from that litigation.
NORMAN: And, the reason was because he was the inside counsel at the
William French Smith at the Justice Department in 1982 at the time that
the Inslaw software was expropriated by the government really.
QUINN: Okay. So he really is not in the position to be the pit bull to
expose this. He is in a better position to get Clinton on whatever
Republicans need to get him on and make sure that Republicans don't get
burned here.
NORMAN: I think that's it. Yeah.
QUINN: Okay, now. Given that that's the case and given that the
Washington inside the beltway crowd on both sides of the aisle are
trying to make sure that the fix is in on this, how do you think or what
leads you to believe that this is going to come out and through what
channels?
NORMAN: Well, again, it goes back to resources of mine. Basically,
there are a few good guys in the intelligence community particularly
this handful of people in the so-called Fifth Column who are so incensed
about this bipartisan coverup, the government's inability and
unwillingness to deal with the high level corruption here, they've just
decided to take things into their own hands. They never had government
authorization to go raid the foreign bank accounts, but....
QUINN: How many accounts are there? How many people in the government
right now have Swiss bank accounts filled with money from BCCI, drug
laundering, defense kickbacks, arms trades, I mean all of this nonsense?
NORMAN: Not as many as two years ago. These guys have been out raiding
these accounts. They've pulled back $2.5 billion, more than $2.5
billion with a "B" dollars from 300, 400, 500 of these accounts. There
is probably 3,000 coded Swiss and other foreign bank accounts that they
have been rifling through the computers on.
QUINN: How can there be this many of them and it doesn't come out?
NORMAN: It is because it is endemic corruption. The government is
corrupt. Why should we give the President of South Korea $600
million? ...country more powerful, more worth corrupting, more venal
and with weaker controls for policing this stuff.
QUINN: Well, because we don't believe it can happen here.
NORMAN: That's right. We're Americans. Well, this is greed and money.
But, there is....
QUINN: Well, it's murder too.
NORMAN: That's right, and there have been hundreds of these accounts
already raided, and nobody, NOBODY has been able to stand up and say, "I
was robbed." Why? Because, the money came from exactly what you said -
kickbacks on drugs, kickbacks on arms, insider trading, and they never
paid any taxes on this stuff. They've never disclosed it, and the
minimum sentence for willful tax evasion is ten years, that's the
minimum. So, what you have going on right now in Congress is basically
there is an angel of death. Actually, there is two I'm told. There is
one on the Democratic side and one on the Republican side.
QUINN: Now, do they make their rounds together?
NORMAN: No. It's separately. What I'm told is that the people in
Congress with these Swiss bank accounts who have had these accounts if
they haven't already left, if they haven't had the good sense to already
get their butts out of there they have been delivered, hand delivered a
brown paper envelope with transaction records of their Swiss bank
accounts and within a day or so they get a visit from this angel of
death who says it's time for you to go, time to do some career planning,
you're out of here, we don't want you in the government when the stuff
hits the fan here as it's gonna do in the spring apparently. The
records are going to Starrt coming out. It's going to be obvious.
These vigilantes are just going to take this situation into their own
hands and release this stuff, I'm convinced.
QUINN: These people are real patriots. They could end up dead doing
this.
NORMAN: Some of them may already have. I think...but they've planned
this quite well. I think they've got it down now. They know that if
anything happens to them that the stuff would just come out in a gush so
it would be counterproductive for....
QUINN: Yeah, but I mean is it going to come out in the mainstream
media. You've got the Mena story being spiked a year ago by Katherine
Graham at the Washington Post, and I've uncov...you what I stumbled on a
memo from Paul Keiser yesterday from the editor at the Washington Post
who writes me in this memo a flat out blatant lie. He says that the
authors of the Mena story that was supposed to run January 26, 1995 in
the Washington Post Outlook Section had withdrawn the article before the
Washington Post had decided to run it, and that's just a flat out lie.
NORMAN: Well, it's technically probably true. But, what they've done,
they've left those people dangling by a thread for like 6-8 months. I
don't blame them for taking the story elsewhere as the....
QUINN: Yeah, but no, but Jim they didn't. The type galleys had been
laid, and the artwork had been done. It was supposed...they didn't pull
it until the Thursday before the Sunday it was supposed to run. NORMAN:
Right. Well, technically the Post can say, "oh, we never quieted
you..."
NORMAN: That's what they told me at Forbes, too, about my story.
Finally, I never got a good reason why my story didn't run at Forbes.
Ultimately, they said, "oh we didn't trust your sources." But, actually
what my immediate supervisor said, "we can't say this about
Systematics," which was a big advertiser at Forbes, and we can't say
this about the Israelis.
QUINN: Yeah, right.
NORMAN: That's why didn't run in Forbes.
QUINN: Well, there's actually no proof that Systematics has deliberately
delivered stolen software. I mean, they may not even know that the
software was stolen, and it may be another version of it.
NORMAN: Systematics is under heavy duty investigation though right now
for money laundering because once you set up a system for laundering
covert funds for the government who knows what else you can piggyback on
top of that. The suspicion is that this was the quid pro quo here in
return for laundering supposedly call it legitimate funds that the
intelligence community can piggyback other stuff to.
QUINN: Let's get back to the angel of death here and the resignations in
Congress which have been pretty much attributed by guys like Rush
Limbaugh to the fact that Democrats just don't like being in the
minority anymore, and they don't have the guts or stamina to stick it
out the way the Republicans did for 40 years. And, some of that may be
true, but how many of these people who have said that they are pulling
their hats out of the ring. And, now we have two Republicans. How many
of these people have been visited by this so-called angel of death? All
of them?
NORMAN: Well, the figures I've heard is that I think there's like 25 or
26 so far since the last election who have decided they are not going to
run again or had actually resigned and out of there like Norman Manetta
from Los Angeles. Of those, I'm told about 21 or 22 so far can be
directly attributed to Swiss bank account problems. There is probably
another dozen or so that are going to go that way. Again, there is an
argument that, "oh, we just can't stand the nasty politics in Washington
anymore." Come on, give me a break.
QUINN: Well, I like Patsy Schroeder. She wanted us to believe that now
that the Democratic party is in such good shape she can leave it and it
doesn't...did you see that?
NORMAN: No....
QUINN: That was great. Oh yeah, now that....
NORMAN: Patsy Schroeder, somebody noted on the Internet that at the news
conference where she was announcing she wasn't going to run, there had
already been re-elect Schroeder bumper stickers printed up. I mean,
she....take this guy Ron Coleman from Texas a Congressman down there.
He made his announcement at his supposed re-election campaign kickoff
party.
QUINN: You're kidding? This is right out of a...this is a movie.
NORMAN: That's right. Listen, these people have been confronted.
They've been given 24 hours basically to clean out their desks. That's
what it amounts to.
QUINN: So, they're gonna try and get all these people out who have Swiss
bank accounts before it hits the fan. Now, when do you suppose that
this is going to happen. Can you give us a timetable?
NORMAN: Well, that's happening in tears. I mean, we've already seen a
bunch of departures. I think that the early spring is the timetable.
You know, Wall Street is going to get hit with this stuff too. Now,
every year in the spring soon after the first of the year after these
guys collect their year-end bonuses you have abig exodus. But, I'm told
Wall Street is going to get hit with this big time this year because
those guys were in it too. You gotta remember, there was so much money
sloshing around here...
QUINN: Yeah, really.
NORMAN: ..from arms deals you could not launder all of that money
without the knowing, willing cooperation and participation of major
banks, major brokerage houses, and...
QUINN: Goldman Sachs possibly?
NORMAN: Oh yeah. Look, Goldman...
QUINN: I always found it strange that Robert Rubin showed up when he
did.
NORMAN: His Goldman, they were the chief investment bankers to Robert
Maxwell in the U.K., helped Maxwell loot a half a billion dollars out of
his pension funds, and it now costs a huge amount of money for a
settlement there.
QUINN: It sounds like somebody's calling you.
NORMAN: They still have the bond for ADFA, the Arkansas Development...
QUINN: Whoa, hold on a second. What's that?
NORMAN: That's another one of these...
QUINN: Well no, I know what it is. You're telling me that Goldman Sachs
was holding the bonds for the Arkansas Development?
NORMAN: No, they were the underwriter on a bunch of these $8 billion or
so of bonds that ADFA marketed to who knows whom.
QUINN: Oh man. You know, I have transactions on my desk at home, $80
million of money transfers to the Fuji Bank in the Cayman Islands from
ADFA, the Arkansas Development Financial Authority who I believe never
had more than $8 million to begin with. I mean, where did they get $80
million and what's it going to the Fuji Bank for? The interest rate?
Come on, the Switzerland of the Caribbean. Jim, I gotta let you go. I
gotta wrap this up here, but I want to thank you for joining us this
morning.
NORMAN: It's a pleasure. I'll keep you posted as more develops.
There's going to be more coming down the pike here soon.
QUINN: Well, I'll tell you what. I'm gonna call you later on today.
I'll give you my home number. Let's stay in touch because if what you
say is true and if there are truly some patriots in the intelligence
community who are finally going to blow the whistle on this. By the
way, all of these resignations and the angel of death and all of this I
think is evidence that these people know that this is inevitable that
this is going to come out.
NORMAN: It's like AIDS. I think there are a bunch of people back before
the last election who realized they, in fact, have slept with the wrong
woman or person and that did not run again, but there has been denial,
denial, denial by a bunch of these people. Finally, I think it's like
the angel of death is finally coming around saying, "you gotta go.
Bye. You're outta here."
********************************* ****************************
If you are a talk show host and want to contact either one of these guys
for an interview you can reach James Norman at MEDIA BYPASS MAGAZINE
1-800-4-BYPASS
Jim Quinn can be contacted at WRRK , 7 Parkway Center, Suite 780,
Pittsburgh, PA 15220, Fax Number 412-928-9290, Internet address is
quinn@sgi.net homepage at
http://www.warroom.com or Compuserve
72662,3507.
This is the story of the decade...spread this far and wide, printout and
FAX to your local talk show hosts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Brenda C. Jinkins
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Sussman
Oakland University SBA WWW Administrator
djsussma@jupiter.acs.oakland.eduhttp://www.sba.oakland.edu/staff/djsussma/djsussma.htm----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu Dec 07, 1995 10:28 pm CST
From: David J. Sussman
EMS: INTERNET / MCI ID: 376-5414
MBX:
djsussma@jupiter.acs.oakland.eduTO: * David Beiter / MCI ID: 635-1762
Subject: Jim Norman - The Still Before The Storm (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 4 DEC 1995 22:28:58 GMT
From: Ken Cook
Newgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Jim Norman - The Still Before The Storm
This is the entire text of the James Norman article for the December 1995
issue of Media Bypass magazine.
THE STILL BEFORE THE STORM
by James Norman
By all appearances, things are business as usual in Washington. There
is the traditional budget bickering this time of the year, the partisan
sniping and the backstabbing among Republican presidential hopefuls
angling for pole position next year. Meanwhile, President Clinton and his
ambitious wife manage to hold a comfortable approval rating in the polls,
enjoy favorable press and seemingly have managed to shrug off persistent
"Whitewater" allegations that have dogged his presidency.
But don't be lulled by the mainstream media, which has been hard at
work pooh-poohing these corruption charges and doubts about the official
"suicide" of former White House Deputy Counsel Vincent W. Foster. This is
just the eerie still before a storm. A hurricane lurks just over the
horizon. Thunderheads are gathering and looming darker. Distant lightning
can be seen but not yet heard. Straws are starting to blow in the wind.
This government may be on the threshold of upheaval unprecedented since
the Civil War. That is the cryptic message coming from multiple well-
connected sources close to the intelligence community, who say big things
are quietly afoot that could fundamentally shuffle this country's
political deck. And that may be just fine with Speaker of the House Newt
Gingrich (R-Ga.), who sources say is quietly maneuvering to use this
impending turmoil not just to "re-engineer government" but to purge both
political parties and effect what amounts to a bloodless coupe d'etat.
Swept away will be not only a raft of big-name Democratic senators and
congressmen, but also many prominent, oldline Republicans who have been
feeding at the trough of corruption for years. It won't stop with
politicians, either. Prominent Wall Streeters, bureaucrats, military
officers and a slew of intelligence bigshots are also said to be about to
take a fall. Well over 300 names are said to be involved in the scandal.
"Apocalypse soon!" predicts P.P. Willie.
P.P. Willie is actually a dog. But it is also the pen name for a
legendary World War II military intelligence veteran, now living in St.
Petersburg, Fla., who writes for a semi-weekly newsletter called
WASHINGTON REPORT. It is a pithy, irreverent Capitol gossip sheet with a
penchant for pink paper. But it is read with considerable interest by its
5,000 subscribers - mostly in Washington and overseas - because Willie is
known to be well-connected within the intelligent community. In the past
he has been uncannily accurate about goings-on in the spook world. And
times there now are very troubled.
Willie's latest:
"Remember reading about TEA POT DOME? How about WATERGATE? Then came
IRAN-CONTRA. Not bad. All the past WASHINGTON political SCANDALS are ITTY
BITTY compared to one that should surface next year, about early spring.
"You don't suppose a few GOOD GUYS in the CIA, FBI, IRS, and NSA (they
are not many, but they exist) are fed up with tucking their tails and
running in the face of WHITE HOUSE pressure? What if they went public
with TRUE DOCUMENTED stories of ESPIONAGE, MURDER, TAX EVASION, DRUG
DEALING, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS STASHED IN OFFSHORE BANK ACCOUNTS AND OTHER
BIG TIME HANKY PANKY at the very TIP TOP of the WASHINGTON manure pile?
The MAJOR MEDIA would not want to embarrass the LIBERAL DARLINGS. But
WHAT IF A LONDON newspaper and PINK newsletter broke the story? Talk
RADIO would then spread the word across the nation...The odds are this
scandal will break. We hear it's a DONE DEAL."
Whispers of such a spilling of the beans are being heard from multiple,
separate intelligence sources. Specifically, as reported in the August
and October editions of MEDIA BYPASS, a small, vigilante team of CIA
computer hackers dubbed the Fifth Column has managed to penetrate Swiss
and other foreign banks to quietly withdraw what is now an astounding $2.
5 billion in illicit money from coded accounts they have identified as
belonging to government figures.
Starting in 1991, this five-man Fifth Column team has been using its
own Cray supercomputer to break into foreign bank computers, download
vast libraries of data and trace this money to a wide range of illegal
activities, from kickbacks on drug and arms deals to insider trading
profits, software piracy and the sale of state secrets. Oh yes, don't
forget tax evasion.
The money has been moved to a U.S. Treasury holding account at several
Federal Reserve Banks, escrowed for use by the CIA if and only if the CIA
gets rid of its own bad apples. How could the government hide that much
money, denying under Freedom of Information Act requests that it even
exists? Just ask the National Reconnaissance Office, the government's spy
satellite agency, which recently fessed up to having $1.7 billion stashed
in secret accounts.
More important then the money, however, are the NAMES. Who had these
accounts? Are they still in office? Who has the list and the proof? Are
they using this information to extort political blackmail? Will the bad
guys be able to buy their way out of exposure? One thing is certain:
Whoever controls this phantom roster of corrupt politicians and money
men has this government's private parts in a tightening vise. One man who
may know is Charles S. Hayes, an irascible Kentucky computer salvage
dealer and recently-retired CIA contractor believed to be part of, or
closely involved with, this Fifth Column.
Hayes, corroborating P.P. Willie's report, does declare that all the
names will come out. Eventually. "When we get good and ready," Hayes says.
The Powers That Be can do little to stop him. Any move against the three
remaining Fifth Column compatriots (one has died and another is disabled)
would be certain to unleash the information in a flood.
At least one big name has already been revealed: Vince Foster. Multiple
sources say one of Foster's several Swiss accounts was raided just before
his death of $2.73 million in proceeds from the sale of sensitive codes
and other secrets to Israel's Mossad. Which may explain why the
government is so anxious to portray Foster's death as a simple suicide.
In reality, it could be the loose thread that unravels a massive tapestry
of corruption.
That suicide cover story is rapidly fraying, despite intense efforts by
the White House and Washington establishment to hold it together. For
instance, credible independent handwriting analysts concluded in late
October that Foster's supposed suicide note is a forgery.
Indeed, there are a number of recent tell-tale events that suggest that
something very big is at hand. Among them:
- CIA briefings. Beginning in late October, high-level CIA officials
began sensitive one-on-one briefings with key members of Congress and
those with intelligence committee assignments. No staff members are
allowed. All parties are sworn to secrecy. Less than a dozen lawmakers
are involved. The subject, according to two sources: Espionage activities
of Vincent Foster and his alleged partner - First Lady Hillary Rodham
Clinton - on behalf of Israel's Mossad and perhaps other foreign
governments.
The purpose of these briefings appears to be to prep key leaders for
cataclysmic political events ahead, including the likely indictment and
possible flight to a foreign country of the First Lady and what would
surely be the inevitable removal of Bill Clinton from office.
- Resignations. There has been an unusually large number of veteran
congressmen and senators announcing their resignations, retirements or
switching parties. Among them, Sen. Sam Nunn (D-Ga.), former chairman and
now ranking minority member of the powerful Armed Services Committee.
Another is Rep. Norman Minetta (D-Calif.), former chairman of the pork-
laden House Transportation Committee. The official explanation: It's no
fun now that the Republicans control Congress.
But sources claim the real reason is that some of these departees have
been quietly confronted with evidence that they took bribes or payoffs
through Swiss or other offshore bank accounts. Rumor has it that about 30
current members of the House and Senate ahve been identified as having
such foreign slush-fund accounts and that Gingrich is trying to weed them
out before the names become public.
[Since this article was written, three more senators have announced
their retirements. Schroeder of Colorado; Hatfield of Oregon; and Simpson
of Wyoming. This is now the most retirements in Congress since 1896. Jim
Norman was on several radio talk shows recently stating that Schroeder
and Hatfield have been presented with evidence of these secret Swiss
accounts. The Simpson retirement was announced after these radio
appearances- krc]
- Curious denials. Multiple good sources have confirmed a report by
veteran Washington correspondent Sarah McClendon that over the Labor Day
weekend, Gingrich attended a "party" at the home of Vice President Al
Gore that included Sen. Bill Bradley, Attorney General Janet Reno and
some other prominent Democrats, after which Gore and Clinton had a
shouting match.
But everyone said to be involved in the meeting claims it never took
place. Is it because Gingrich was there to deliver the bad news: a
mountain of hard evidence of high-level corruption? Gingrich declines to
be interviewed by MEDIA BYPASS.
This Fifth Column team apparently began its work in the late 1980s.
Their primary assignment was to break into foreign intelligence agency
databases by a variety of physical and electronic means. But the main
means of entry was via secret "back doors" programmed into the modified
"PROMIS" tracking software which our government, under the direction of
CIA spymaster William Casey, managed to market all over the globe, even
to our enemies.
This initial phase of the computer spy effort succeeded in downloading
data from more than 50 foreign intelligence services, including the KGB,
the Mossad and most of Europe's spy agencies, according to various CIA-
related sources. Contrary to boastful claims by the FBI, this is
apparently how Russian mole Aldrich Ames was identified as a double agent
more than two years before his dramatic arrest in February 1994. Is is
also how the CIA found out Foster was working for the Mossad, after
learning that someone in our government was delivering highly sensitive
computer codes to the Israelis; Foster had been a long-time handler of
sensitive computer spy deals and covert money-laundering for the NSA
(MEDIA BYPASS, Aug. 1995). Found along with Foster's name in the Mossad
data base was that of Hillary Clinton, whose name also cropped up as an
operative for at least two other European intelligence services, as yet
unidentified.