So, where did this story start that the Bohemian Grove God is the deity Moloch?

Author Topic: So, where did this story start that the Bohemian Grove God is the deity Moloch?  (Read 30073 times)

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Offline David Rothscum

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Is there any evidence for this at all? Moloch is nearly always depicted as a bull, I've never seen an Owl named Moloch.
"David... stop covering up for the Bohemian Grove you CIA Cointelpro Bohemian Grove disinfo agent!"
That's not what this is about. I just want to know where the story came from that the Bohemian Owl Statue is Moloch. Yes, it appears to be a mock sacrifice ritual. I'm not contesting that. But there are countless other Deities that were sacrificed children. Did someone just happen to pick Moloch because his name is in the Bible and thus it'll make the Christians freak out, and did the name just sort of stuck?

PatAndrews

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I believe the owl form is considered to be the female form of Moloch.  I'm not 100% on this though.  I know I read it somewhere.  I'll try to find a link or reference.

Godsent

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I have watched all 3 parts of this and I think David gets to it in the 2nd part, I am not sure. I do know it is in this lecture.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/DavidIckeIsRite/videos/6/

Offline David Rothscum

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I believe the owl form is considered to be the female form of Moloch.  I'm not 100% on this though.  I know I read it somewhere.  I'll try to find a link or reference.
And that's what I've read before. The problem is the only people who claim that are the people talking about Bohemian Grove. When people talk about female forms of Moloch or Moloch depicted as an owl, they're always talking about Bohemian Grove. I have never come across a reference to a female form of Moloch, let alone one depicted as an owl. In fact, from what I've read it seems that Moloch was a deity solely meant for the men:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/tsf/tsf12.htm
The women had certain Gods, and the men had certain Gods, the same way people in certain professions had their own Gods. Judging from this text it seems that Moloch was a masculine God. There may have been a feminine equivalent of Moloch I don't know, but I assume she'd have a different name.

PatAndrews

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The only other thing I found is at http://illuminatimatrix.wordpress.com/6-origin-of-number-systems/

It states Molech was symbolized 3,000 years ago as a huge stone owl with an incinerator carved into it’s belly to burn the human children of the Egyptian people. How accurate this is, I don't know.  For some reason, I seem to remember in one of Blavatsky's writings, she mentions something about the owl in relation to the Isis cult.  Again, I'm not 100% on this.  I'll go through and try to find the exact quote. 

Offline David Rothscum

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The only other thing I found is at http://illuminatimatrix.wordpress.com/6-origin-of-number-systems/

It states Molech was symbolized 3,000 years ago as a huge stone owl with an incinerator carved into it’s belly to burn the human children of the Egyptian people. How accurate this is, I don't know.  For some reason, I seem to remember in one of Blavatsky's writings, she mentions something about the owl in relation to the Isis cult.  Again, I'm not 100% on this.  I'll go through and try to find the exact quote. 
Thanks for taking the time to find the answer to this question.

Offline chrisfromchi

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Sumerian/Assyrian Terra Cotta Relief of Lilith:
The lion and owl are sacred animals to Lilith because they are both creatures that feed and protect their young, and do so viciously and without fear. Thus Lilith is also a goddess of protection, in addition to agriculture/fertility.

Moloch in medieval texts

Like some other gods and demons found in the Bible, Moloch appears as part of medieval demonology, as a Prince of Hell. This Moloch finds particular pleasure in making mothers weep; he specializes in stealing their children. According to some 16th century demonologists, Moloch's power is stronger in December.

 Moloch in Milton's Paradise Lost

In John Milton's Paradise Lost, Moloch is one of the greatest warriors of the rebel angels,

    "besmeared with blood,
    Of human sacrifice, and parents' tears."

He is listed among the chief of Satan's angels in Book I, and is given a speech at the parliament of Hell in Book 2:43 - 105, where he argues for immediate warfare against God. He later becomes revered as a pagan god on Earth.

Offline jack_2002

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get a copy of alex jones groundbreaking epic documentary made when himself and some associates infiltrated right into the layer of the grove with video cameras and documented everything including the molloch worship and cremation of care ceremony.


Offline David Rothscum

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get a copy of alex jones groundbreaking epic documentary made when himself and some associates infiltrated right into the layer of the grove with video cameras and documented everything including the molloch worship and cremation of care ceremony.
Which calls a giant stone owl "Moloch" but doesn't explain how it came to the conclusion that it's Moloch.

carlee

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Molech
Tyrian fire god, probably based on Hindu Agni. His name meant "King", like the Semitic melek or melkart.  He was assimilated the Greek's Heracles, whose sacrificial victims were slain by fire.

Molech was worshipped by the Jews in the time of Solomon, whose famous temple was actually built by the King of Ture (1 Kings5:1-11). Jews seem to have identified Molech with Yahweh when they were passing their firstborn children through the fire to Molech
(Leviticus18:21); Yahweh also demanded sacrifice of firstborn children
(Exodus 13:2).
The shrine of Molech near Jerusalem was Gehenna. Christans adopted this word out of the Bible as a synonym for hell, and also gave Molech a prominent position among the demons.1
1. Waite, C.M.,186-87

I coppied this from a book I have called
http://www.amazon.com/Womans-Encyclopedia-Myths-Secrets/dp/006250925X

Offline Revolt426

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Which calls a giant stone owl "Moloch" but doesn't explain how it came to the conclusion that it's Moloch.
It probably came from the same place that the Dis Information about FDR, Lincoln, Hamilton, Kennedy, The History of the Rothschild Family and other areas of "Sourceless" information that is taken for granted when "googled"
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate … It will purge the rottenness out of the system..." - Andrew Mellon, Secretary of Treasury, 1929.

Offline TelepesT

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I would recommend the study of ancient Carthage - they worshipped Molech - see if you can find a reference to the OWL - I will look as well
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Offline David Rothscum

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It probably came from the same place that the Dis Information about FDR, Lincoln, Hamilton, Kennedy, The History of the Rothschild Family and other areas of "Sourceless" information that is taken for granted when "googled"
I call them patriot dogma's. Certain things can't be questioned, otherwise you end up excommunicated. It's the same in every movement though. Most of the environmentalists would never accept me as one of them either, because I don't buy into the CO2 hoax and the overpopulation scam and really believe that DDT was banned because it saved too many lives (if they cared about the health effects we wouldn't have Bisphenol A in our plastics either). A lot of pro-lifers would probably never see me as one of them either, since I really couldn't care less about gay marriage one way or another and am non-religious.
It leaves me feeling most at home here, even though a lot will think I'm working for the Jews/the HFCS manufacturers/some other evil group (why has nobody tried the Russians yet?).

Offline Revolt426

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I call them patriot dogma's. Certain things can't be questioned, otherwise you end up excommunicated. It's the same in every movement though. Most of the environmentalists would never accept me as one of them either, because I don't buy into the CO2 hoax and the overpopulation scam and really believe that DDT was banned because it saved too many lives (if they cared about the health effects we wouldn't have Bisphenol A in our plastics either). A lot of pro-lifers would probably never see me as one of them either, since I really couldn't care less about gay marriage one way or another and am non-religious.
It leaves me feeling most at home here, even though a lot will think I'm working for the Jews/the HFCS manufacturers/some other evil group (why has nobody tried the Russians yet?).
I am well aware of these Dogma's, infact everytime i invoke the economic policies of Lincoln and FDR, considering they were fundamentally the same, i am called either a Communist, Zionest, Fascist or Cointel......... because everyone knows FDR was a fascist! after all JP Morgan attempted to kill him twice, and even overthrow him !.

And everyone knows he was evil because he stole everyones "Freedom" and started WW2 right?............ OR is there massive disinformation all over the internet to demonize certain people in US history?

I wasn't going to post this but i dont care anymore, Was FDR really a Fascist?:
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_1-9/2007_1-9/2007-7/pdf/7-8_707_feat-2.pdf
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate … It will purge the rottenness out of the system..." - Andrew Mellon, Secretary of Treasury, 1929.

Offline Revolt426

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Oh, and the Rothschild family ...... That Mayer Rothschild story is a FABLE . Do some research before posting the Rothschild Family History, particularly into their bloodline that dates back to the Oligarchs of Venice and their Roman Empire.

( I am awaiting to be crucified right now, go for it)
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate … It will purge the rottenness out of the system..." - Andrew Mellon, Secretary of Treasury, 1929.

Offline username438

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I call them patriot dogma's. Certain things can't be questioned, otherwise you end up excommunicated. It's the same in every movement though. Most of the environmentalists would never accept me as one of them either, because I don't buy into the CO2 hoax and the overpopulation scam and really believe that DDT was banned because it saved too many lives (if they cared about the health effects we wouldn't have Bisphenol A in our plastics either). A lot of pro-lifers would probably never see me as one of them either, since I really couldn't care less about gay marriage one way or another and am non-religious.
It leaves me feeling most at home here, even though a lot will think I'm working for the Jews/the HFCS manufacturers/some other evil group (why has nobody tried the Russians yet?).
I don't know whether or not this information checks out, but there is a hint of truth to what you say. These "patriot dogmas" you speak of (i like that) should be disspelled rather than just written off as inevitable. We have a hard enough time getting people to listen to us and take us seriously without people making unsubstantiated claims that weaken our credibility. This especially applies to the message boards here. Speculation is by no means a bad thing, but if you make a claim that based on speculation or heresay then you should also point out that you are speculating or that this is heresay. Now I'm on this whole tangent about intellectual honesty. Just try to keep this in mind.
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Offline gEEk squad

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If its not Moloch, then what diety does it represent? Is there something that fits better?

Is there much of a difference between a bull with horns and a horned owl? Children are sacrificed to both. Maybe somewhere down the line people changed it to an owl because it represents wisdom?

To me its no big deal because whatever you call the diety at the end of the day is not significant.

It would be nice to know exactly why it is known as Moloch though.

Offline Revolt426

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This is bigger then Molech the owl, or whatever it is.

The point he was trying to make is, if you question certain "Truths" on these message boards you are immediately an enemy.

And the fact of the matter is, many of these sacred truths are complete disinformation that was obviously intentionally stuck on google so people could go ahead and "research" without opening a book.
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate … It will purge the rottenness out of the system..." - Andrew Mellon, Secretary of Treasury, 1929.

Offline gEEk squad

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That's very true. There is a lot of disinfo and scammers out there.

It would be impossible to get rid of all of the disinfo and scamming that goes on. It is up to the individual to decide what to believe or not.

You have to tackle each topic individually. It is usually best practice to search for direct criticism of someone's claims, look at the evidence for both and weigh which one is true.

I try to stay away from topics that can't be easily proven.

Another "patriot/truther" myth is sovereignty. Claiming that you are a corporation when your name is in all capital letters is one myth that never holds up in actual court cases. G. Edward Griffin and a few others have shown how its not true, and even if it were true it doesn't matter.

Offline TelepesT

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Ancient coin      Phoenicia, Tyre. Circa 425 BC

There is the OWL

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Offline David Rothscum

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If its not Moloch, then what diety does it represent?
That's what I'd like to know.
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Is there something that fits better?
It's not as much about fitting it to something, it's about finding out what the hell they think they're doing in the forest with gay porn stars and a giant stone owl.
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Is there much of a difference between a bull with horns and a horned owl?
Yes. It's like saying Queen Elisabeth heads Bilderberg. Sure, it's close, they're both queens, they're both evil and they're both inbred, but it's no cigar, and spreading such a claim as if it's proven fact is destructive.
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Children are sacrificed to both. Maybe somewhere down the line people changed it to an owl because it represents wisdom?
Perhaps.
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To me its no big deal because whatever you call the diety at the end of the day is not significant.
It's a big deal to me. I want to know the facts.  If we had any idea about the specific "God" they are worshipping over there (if they are indeed worshipping a God) we could find out more about what drives these people.
Quote
It would be nice to know exactly why it is known as Moloch though.
Indeed, and that's what I'm trying to find out.

Offline David Rothscum

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Ancient coin      Phoenicia, Tyre. Circa 425 BC

There is the OWL


Image isn't working for me. Could you give the link where you found that?

Offline Initiated

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"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives."  ~ James Madison

Offline Initiated

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Image isn't working for me. Could you give the link where you found that?

Maybe I can help a little...
--------------------------

Athenian silver tetradrachm
Classical style,  5th century BC.



Athenian silver tetradrachm
Hellenistic style, 2nd century BC

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives."  ~ James Madison

PatAndrews

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I think there is more of a connection between the owl symbolism and wisdom, perhaps even the ever popular all seeing eye symbol we all know and love.   ::)

As far as it being Moloch or Molech, in a couple hours of research (which I admit is nothing much), the only reference to this being an owl is when having to do with the Grove.  If someone could show me a non-Grove reference to this, it would be greatly appreciated. 

Obviously, a lot more research has to be done on my part here on owl symbology.  It's a good thing I have a couple days off.   :D

BTW, ty David for bringing this question up.  

Offline the7th

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I wonder if it makes any difference to it's name. The Devil goes by many names and many forms
And Jesus said: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

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Offline gEEk squad

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I wonder if it makes any difference to it's name. The Devil goes by many names and many forms

Exactly like trolls!  ;D

carlee

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I believe the owl form is considered to be the female form of Moloch.  I'm not 100% on this though.  I know I read it somewhere.  I'll try to find a link or reference.
Here is another definition from the book I listed earlier
OWL  Romans called the owl strix(pl.striges), the same word that meant "witch" 1 Greeks said the owl was sacred to Athene, their own version of ancient Mesopotamian "Eye-Goddess" whose staring owe-eyed images have been found throughout the Middle East, especially around the Mother-city of Mari 2 The Owl was also the totem of Lilith, Blodeuwedd, Anath, and other versions of the Triple Goddess of the moon. See Trinity.

According the christian legend, the owl was on of "three disobedient sisters" who defied God and was transformed into a bird who never looked at the sun. 3 It is easy enough to see in this idea the shape of the Goddess herself, and the church's hostility to her. One of the medieval names for the owl was "night hag; it was said to be witch in bird form.4 The owl is still associated with witches in the symbols of Halloween.
The owl is also a bird of wisdom because it used to embody the wisdom of the Goddess. Certain medieval magic charms apparently sought to use the bird's oracular power against its former mistress woman. If an owl could be slain and its heart pulled out and laid on the left breast of a sleeping woman, the woman would talk in her sleep and reveal all her secrets. 5 This seems to have been a basis of the expression, "heart-to-heart talk," which meant a woman's secret conversation with her familiar.
1.Trigg, 96  2 Neumann, G.M.,pl.87 3. de Lys, 37 4. Cavendish, P.E.,100.

Offline TelepesT

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You will freak - but the ancient Egyptian glyph for water was 'owl owl owl'

----------------
The Owl as an emblem was used by several culturally diverse civilisations: the first to use the Owl symbol extensively was undoubtedly the Egyptians in development of their “picture writing” called hieroglyphs. A hieroglyph represents a word, sound or syllable in a pictorial system of writing. For example, letter “A”, an eagle, “B”, a human foot, the Owl ...... letter “M”. The Egyptian for “water” was M M M (i.e. owl owl owl ), however, because hieroglyphics did not include vowel symbols, the middle (owl ) symbol became a “Y” ...M Y M to make the sound for water - M I M; this incidentally is the same word in Hebrew for “water “. Within Egyptian hieroglyphic script the Owl symbol ( Plate 1 ) can be seen carved extensively on temple walls, burial chambers, on statues and in delicate gold work.

Astarte, the important and all powerful Goddess of Phoenicia and the Greek Goddess of Athens, Athena , were both endowed with attributes of the Owl......symbol of the night, lunar mystery, the all-seeing eye , dispenser of wisdom and bearer of the good and the evil . The Arabians and the Romans believed the Owl was an omen of evil intent. The owl even found its way into astronomy. Perseus was known as the Owl Constellation.

______________________________________________
http://www.imagecare.co.uk/nascodex/6.htm

MMM Water!

Image isn't working for me. Could you give the link where you found that?


Here is another one

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Offline φυδγε

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Here is another one



That is a picture of a coin from Carthage depicting Moloch?  Is there a link, at what archeological site was it found, what museum houses this coin?  Have scholars commented on this coin?

More info please?  Some context?  There should be a catalog number so the coin's origin can be traced.

Offline tritonman

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here is the souce on the owl coins......BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Birds from the Department of Lima, Koepcke M. Harrowood Books, USA. 1983
Phoenicians ( Peoples of the Past Series ). Markoe, University of California Press 2000.
Les Phoeniciens. Direction Scientifique Prof.Sabatino Moscati. Editions Stock 1977
Plate 4: Nasca Display Interpretation Project, Research Photo Collection.


Offline φυδγε

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here is the souce on the owl coins......BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Birds from the Department of Lima, Koepcke M. Harrowood Books, USA. 1983
Phoenicians ( Peoples of the Past Series ). Markoe, University of California Press 2000.
Les Phoeniciens. Direction Scientifique Prof.Sabatino Moscati. Editions Stock 1977
Plate 4: Nasca Display Interpretation Project, Research Photo Collection.

I understand what you're saying and I'm not trying to be difficult, but those books are a source for what?  You list 3 books and a museum catalog number and I appreciate that much, but where did you find the picture?  Was it in these three books and at the museum or what?  I don't have access to these books at the moment, do they each say that the Phoenician Owl is Moloch?  If so, can you provide the page numbers from either the sub sources or the original source?

I've researched some Egyptology, Phoenician, and Near Eastern documents, I too am confused about Moloch.

A google book search on Moloch doesn't look promising:

http://books.google.com/books?q=moloch&lr=&sa=N&start=0


There is one promising link, but it is in French, so I can't really decipher it, but it seems to say that Phoenicians sacrificed to Moloch and that they received the tradition from the Jews.   But my french is not too good.  I don't see owl in the paragraph, but I encourage others to look:

http://books.google.com/books?id=4g9apDxKCXQC&pg=PA314&dq=moloch&lr=


Perhaps this search will get you closer:

http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=moloch+Carthage+or+Phoenicia&btnG=Search+Books

I don't think anybody disputes that these ancient cultures worshiped Moloch, the question is whether the deity was depicted as an owl.

The coin posted looks like the owl of Athena to me.  Also the ancients had tons of names for owls, a name for each different kind, so keep that in mind.

I'll try to find more out.

This search on Moloch the Owl is not very promising:

http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=Moloch+the+Owl&btnG=Search+Books

Offline Revolt426

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well to add my 2cents about the worshipping of an OWL, What is an OWL?

A Nocturnal Creature that is intelligent and can "see" further then others in the darkness. Perhaps they are just comparing themselves to an owl , for being able to see "Beyond others" and being "Wise".
Speaking of WISE, what is the WISE potatoe Chips Logo?:


Of all an Owl's features, perhaps the most striking is its eyes. Large and forward facing, they may account for one to five percent of the Owl's body weight, depending on species. The forward facing aspect of the eyes that give an Owl its "wise" appearance, also give it a wide range of "binocular" vision (seeing an object with both eyes at the same time). This means the owl can see objects in 3 dimensions (height, width, and depth), and can judge distances in a similar way to humans. The field of view for an owl is about 110 degrees, with about 70 degrees being binocular vision.
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate … It will purge the rottenness out of the system..." - Andrew Mellon, Secretary of Treasury, 1929.

Offline Revolt426

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/-evidence-/3206044255/
Great Horned Owl has several nicknames, including "night tiger" and "flying bobcat."Owls are carnivores (meat-eaters). The Great Horned Owl is mostly nocturnal (most active at night). Owls use a keen sense of sight to find prey in the dark (they see mostly in black and white). They also have an acute sense of hearing which helps in finding meals. Owls are stealth hunters; they can easily sneak up on their prey since their fluffy feathers give them almost silent flight. The Great Horned Owl hunts and eats mammals (like rabbits, skunks, woodchucks, mice, rats, and squirrels), birds (ducks, quail, and geese), and fish. The owl is at the top of the food web; it has no major predators. It sometimes eats its prey whole and later regurgitates the bones, fur, and feathers in pellets.
"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate … It will purge the rottenness out of the system..." - Andrew Mellon, Secretary of Treasury, 1929.

Offline φυδγε

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Diodorus Siculus (1st c. BC) section 20.14 describes a sacrificial scene from Carthage involving the sacrifice of children and a bronze statue.  He likens the deity to Kronos and does not mention Moloch.  He writes that the statue was of a bull.

I'll keep looking around.

Offline φυδγε

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I found this site with pictures, but none of the owls are called Moloch or Molech.

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/phoenicia/tyre/t.html

Some have owls, others have eagles.

Offline nustada

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

There is an etymological link between lilith and screech or eagle owls.

In Greece the owl was used to represent athena, or "people up to no good" depending on how it was used.

In the middle east in pre-muslim polytheism, that owl represented the moon god, which is one of the heads of the trinity.

Offline TelepesT

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That is a picture of a coin from Carthage depicting Moloch?  Is there a link, at what archeological site was it found, what museum houses this coin?  Have scholars commented on this coin?

More info please?  Some context?  There should be a catalog number so the coin's origin can be traced.


Sorry - this coin is very common - known as the Phoenician Owl or Tyrian Owl
do a search for that type of ancient coins- you will find many many many links
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Offline heavyhebrew

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I always thought the owl was representative of Athena.

Moloch/Athena/Whatever, all I need to know is that the people who consider themselves our masters do some seriously kinky stuff in the woods of Northern California.
Who cares what they believe, recognize it as the evil it is.

And if Rothscum and Revolt want to question the "orthodoxy" of stated ideas around here and people react badly, what does it say about any "Truth" movement?

Always question, it was the elites hate the most.
We work jobs we hate to pay for stuff we don't need to impress people we don't like. Am I the crazy one here?

Offline Dok

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Ive never been able to link Molech with an owl, and ive tried a couple of times.  ??? Maybe thats just what the Bohemians themselves call it, Molech, and the owl is there symbol. Kind of a way to through us off.
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