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Author Topic: Re: Innoculations Work! Get them soon as you can for you kids!  (Read 2191 times)
Tom Servo
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« on: September 27, 2007, 05:36:36 PM »

Look...the impartial science - tons of it - simply does not support the theory that thimerosal causes autism (or any other problems).

The only studies that purport to show any link between thimerosal and autism have been conducted by Dr. Mark Geier who is on the payroll of the trial lawyers suing the pharmaceutical companies.  His "results" can hardly be trusted.  Besides, thimerosal was eliminated from vaccines in 2001 with the exception of many flu vaccines, and there isn't any proof that adults who are exposed to the doses of thimerosal in a flu vaccine suffer any adverse effects.

Sorry, this is not a theory I believe holds any water.  In my line of work I have been deeply involved in studying the thimerosal controversy, and the evidence is simply not there.
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Tom Servo
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2007, 08:05:24 PM »

I'm sorry to hear about your son.

But you cannot point to any evidence that thimerosal causes autism.  I'm sorry, it's just not there.

Just because a celebrity makes the conclusory allegation that a vaccine caused her child's autism...doesn't make it true.  Correlation does not equal causation.
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chilicharger665
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2007, 08:27:08 PM »

Who cares if you can't directly link it to autism? You can bat the yay/nay theories around all day, but what it comes down to is that these vaccines are NOT good for your children and have been proven to cause problems. Plus they just enrich greedy CEO's and all that bullcrap.
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Tom Servo
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 08:45:06 PM »

I got vaccines as a kid that had thimerosal in them, and I'm perfectly fine.

Vaccinations have stopped deadly childhood diseases in their tracks.  The overall utility of vaccines outweighs the alleged harm, and the evidence of "harm" is all anecdotal and unproven.

I'm sorry but this is a conspiracy theory that is just that - a theory.  I have done over 60 hours of research into the so-called thimerosal controversy and there is no conclusive evidence it causes anyone any harm.

I agree that vaccines should be voluntarily and not mandatory.  But vaccines have prevented far, far more harm than they have allegedly caused.

And there is no such thing as a cancer virus.  When you talk about something as ridiculous as a "cancer virus" your argument loses all credibility.
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Amishism
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 09:09:44 PM »

Tom according to these people the vaccines have not stopped any diseases, the diseases were on the down swing anyway, in all cases. Vaccines don't work and should be avoided like the plague.

www.vaccination.inoz.com/polio_short.html
They have a free video on google.
"Vaccination: The Hidden Truth"
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Tom Servo
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 09:12:07 PM »

Well I guess we disagree on this.  Like I said, I've done many, many hours of research into the issue, my opinion is not based on speculation, conjecture, or anecdote.
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White Rose Sophie
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 10:14:45 PM »

Well I guess we disagree on this.  Like I said, I've done many, many hours of research into the issue, my opinion is not based on speculation, conjecture, or anecdote.

http://www.nvic.org

I think these folks have done a little research as well.

Amazing, isn't it? How many of those who sit on the board of the FDA, and various medical organizations also own stock in pharmaceutical companies...  And how many 'safety' studies on vaccines and new drugs are actually funded by pharmaceutical companies.

Hey, sickness is BIG BUSINESS.  Can you imagine just how many businesses would go under, how many people out of work, advertising dollars lost.....if they actually found a cure for cancer?
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Kregener
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 10:19:32 PM »

Tom Servo either:

A) Is a doctor

or

B) Makes his living in the medical industry.

Amishism beat me to it!

Quote
Tom according to these people the vaccines have not stopped any diseases, the diseases were on the down swing anyway, in all cases. Vaccines don't work and should be avoided like the plague.



www.vaccination.inoz.com/polio_short.html
They have a free video on google.
"Vaccination: The Hidden Truth"
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Tom Servo
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 10:34:33 PM »

Wrong wrong wrong...I am not a doctor nor do I work in the medical field.

And I cannot "post my 60 hours of research".  My research consisted of actually reading and analyzing dozens of scientific studies, analyzing critiques of those studies, studying thimerosal, and reading literature related to thimerosal.  Have any of you done that?  Or did you just hear a celebrity make an unsupported claim and you latched onto it?

The unbiased research is out there, I suggest you all spend some time reading and analyzing it rather than just reciting bogus claims you hear on TV or posting biased studies that lack any scientific credibility.

Quote
And how many 'safety' studies on vaccines and new drugs are actually funded by pharmaceutical companies.

And who do you think funds the studies that say thimerosal causes autism?  Let me save you trouble...it's the trial lawyers, who are trying to scam millions of dollars from pharma companies.  There are greedy pigs on both sides.

Quote
Tom according to these people the vaccines have not stopped any diseases, the diseases were on the down swing anyway, in all cases. Vaccines don't work and should be avoided like the plague.

Who is Taycare Pty Ltd?  Do they have any credibility?  Who funded their "research"?

You can't just post a link to a website and claim it as truth.
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Tom Servo
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 10:45:46 PM »

You're ridiculous, guy.  I disagree with you and that makes me an undercover officer?  Give me a break!  The only "shills" are the people who resort to a red herring by attacking the messenger, which apparently is your cup of tea.  You just lost all credibility whatsoever!

Being a "truth seeker" means you consider all sides to a story before making an informed decision...it doesn't mean you blindly support every conspiracy theory presented to you and attack anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Hey, I disagree that the world is flat.  Does that make me an NWO shill?
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White Rose Sophie
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 11:13:40 PM »

Wrong wrong wrong...I am not a doctor nor do I work in the medical field.

And I cannot "post my 60 hours of research".  My research consisted of actually reading and analyzing dozens of scientific studies, analyzing critiques of those studies, studying thimerosal, and reading literature related to thimerosal.  Have any of you done that?  Or did you just hear a celebrity make an unsupported claim and you latched onto it?

The unbiased research is out there, I suggest you all spend some time reading and analyzing it rather than just reciting bogus claims you hear on TV or posting biased studies that lack any scientific credibility.

And who do you think funds the studies that say thimerosal causes autism?  Let me save you trouble...it's the trial lawyers, who are trying to scam millions of dollars from pharma companies.  There are greedy pigs on both sides.

Who is Taycare Pty Ltd?  Do they have any credibility?  Who funded their "research"?

You can't just post a link to a website and claim it as truth.

I'm afraid I didn't read McCarthy's article, did you check out the National Vaccine Information Center link I posted?  You didn't mention it in your reply.  It was founded by parents of children damaged by vaccinations.

I think there are quite a few people there who have invested a bit more than 60 hours of research.  I have myself.

Would you like some quotes from someone OTHER than me?  How much time do you have?  Grin

SUBTERFUGES AND SYRINGES
THE REAL WORLD OF VACCINATIONS
 
By Thomas Smith
February 1, 2003
NewsWithViews.com

Vaccination programs in the late 19th and early 20th century decimated the populations of many countries where government sponsored vaccination programs were introduced. Japan suffered 48,000 deaths from smallpox vaccination; England and Wales experienced 45,800 smallpox deaths in a population that was 97% vaccinated against smallpox. Australia and Germany combined with a total of 120,000 deaths from the very smallpox for which they had been vaccinated. European deaths amongst the vaccinated portion of the population totaled 3,000,000. Deaths from smallpox vaccination programs began to decline when a revolt against mandatory vaccination programs emerged from the chaos.

The revolt started in England. In the late 19th century, England was jailing an average of 2000 parents a year for refusal to vaccinate themselves and their children. Property seizure and prosecution were commonplace for refusal to participate in vaccination programs. The battle was a political one. The people started to win when a number of leading scientists went public with the truth about these vaccination programs.

Doctor Edgar Crookshank Professor of Biology at Kings College led the charge against mandatory vaccination programs with his book "The history and Pathology of Vaccination." Other leading scientists of his generation soon jumped on the bandwagon.

They demonstrated the scientific poverty of the entire vaccination concept. The revolt was successful. Within twenty years mandatory smallpox vaccination laws in England were repealed. In 1919 the death rate from smallpox promptly plummeted to a total of 28 deaths in a population of almost 40,000,000 people. Previously, with mandatory vaccinations they had averaged over 44,000 deaths from smallpox.
Meanwhile at the same time in the Philippine Islands, with a population of 10,000,000, a compulsory smallpox vaccination program administered by the US government produced over 47,000 deaths from smallpox. Over the entire ten year span of the vaccination program mandated by the US government in the Philippines 25,000,000 vaccinations were forced on a population of 10,000,000 people in a series of three per person. This produced 170,000 cases of smallpox of which 75,000 were fatal.

In the USA, an article in the July 1969 issue of Prevention Magazine described how 300 children had died from smallpox vaccination in the period from 1948 to 1969. In that very same reporting period there were no incidences of smallpox in the country.

In the USA in 1937, Dr. William Hay in his address to the Medical Freedom Society on the Lemke bill to abolish compulsory vaccination said: "I have thought many times of all of the insane things we have advocated in medicine, that is one of the most insane - to insist on the vaccination of children, or anybody else, for the prevention of smallpox when, as a matter of fact, we are never able to prove that vaccination saved one man from smallpox."
We are indebted to the work of Ian Sinclair for the excellent investigative work involved with the discovery of many of the relatively suppressed facts in the archives of history. He has published this information in his book "Vaccination: The Hidden Facts" The true story of the horror produced by compulsory vaccination somehow seems to be totally lacking in today's media reporting.

The theory of vaccinations.
In theory, vaccinations are designed to provoke a healthy immune system to manufacture antibodies to defend itself against some future exposure to disease. Vaccinations are specific. Each vaccination is purported to offer protection against a single specific disease or combination of diseases. There is no evidence whatsoever, that vaccination provides immunity beyond what the immune system without vaccination would normally provide.
 
There is much evidence that the "one size fits all" philosophy of the vaccines overwhelms the childhood immune system, those with weakened immune systems, those already coping with some other disease and those with allergies and sensitivities. Our immune systems are more unique than our fingerprints. To presume that all will have the desired response to vaccination is not just bad science, it borders on lunacy. Albeit, it is a very profitable lunacy for the drug companies.

In an article that appeared in the New York Journal of Medicine in July 1899 Charles Rauta, Professor of Hygiene and Material Medical in the University of Perguia says: "Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and ignorance; it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine....Believe not in vaccination, it is a world wide delusion, an unscientific practice, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end."
Professor Rauta was involved with the horrible smallpox epidemics in Italy at a time when Italy had achieved 98.5% compliance with the compulsory vaccination laws of the country. Professor Ari Zuckerman, a member of the World Health Organization advisory panel on virus' said: "Immunization against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself." The British medical Journal in January 1976 stated: "It is now accepted that the risks of routine smallpox vaccination outweigh those of natural infection in Britain." Doctor Robert Gallo a well known AIDS researcher said: "I have been saying for some years that the use of live vaccines such as that used from smallpox can activate a dormant infection such as that from AIDS (HIV)."

The active ingredient in each vaccine usually consists of an attenuated form of the infectious agent. When the infectious agent is simply weakened it will multiply in the host body and theoretically stimulate the production of antibodies by forming a pocket of rapidly growing infection without producing the disease. Historic practice was to grow the active agent in animal tissue and then use it in human tissue. This greatly reduced its virulence in human tissue.
For example when smallpox is grown in cow tissue it acclimates to the cow tissue. When the vaccine thus made is then transferred to human tissue it is found to be much less virulent to humans. When its virulence is thought to be sufficiently attenuated by successive cow hosts, it can be harvested and used for humans. The term "vaccine" actually comes from the root word "vaca" meaning cow. However, it is now applied to any vaccine used in any vaccination program and now often has little or no association with a cow.

However, this process is slow, marginally profitable and subject to whatever contamination exists in the animal tissue. So a variety of chemical ways to attenuate or kill these agents have been developed amongst which are: the use of carbolic acid, formaldehyde and heat treatment. Modern practice is to attenuate the active agent with chemistry and to grow it in a more controlled environment such as human fetal tissue. This speeds up the process and unfortunately places late term abortion on the firm commercial base needed to insure profitability for the industry. It also often leaves traces of carbolic acid, formaldehyde and fetal serum in the retail version of the vaccine.
The vaccination itself, in addition to the presumably attenuated infectious agent, contains adjuvenants, preservatives and a remnant of the media in which the vaccine was grown. In theory these contaminants are of little or no consequence. In practice they are of immense importance. For example one theory of the origin of the AIDS virus is that it was caused by contamination of the Hepatitis and Smallpox vaccines by growing the virus' in monkey serum media.

When the active agent is killed however, it does not rapidly reproduce or spread in our bodies. Our immune system then has a tendency to dispose of it quickly before a satisfactory development of antibodies throughout the body can occur. To prevent this, adjuvenants are added to the vaccine. These adjuvenants prevent the rapid assimilation of the active agent throughout the body. They cause the active agent to be localized in a small pocket of foreign protein thus providing a longer stimulus to the immune system. In theory this will result in the increased production of host antibodies. Thus the adjuvenant actually inhibits the natural tendency of our immune response to remove the foreign proteins from our system.
Since the active agents consist of proteins that have been killed or attenuated, it is necessary to include preservatives in the vaccine in order to provide a profitable shelf life for the product. Thimerosol is the preservative of choice in our vaccines. Thimerosol is an extraordinarily toxic Mercury compound. The amounts contained in a single vaccination contain up to 125 times the EPA permissible amount of toxic mercury. This mercury comes in a particularly toxic form that has been known since 1929 to severely damage the nervous system and to overwhelm the kidneys, liver and immune systems of children.
Thimerosol has now been determined to be a causal agent in the exploding epidemic of autism, ADD, ADHD devastating our children. Instead of simply removing the cause of these disorders, the State, in many cases, has mandated the use of Ritalin to counteract their symptoms.
Vaccinations are routinely given in childhood on the theory that they will confer immunity upon the child in the event of future exposure to infectious disease. Before the age of five many children are required to have over 30 vaccinations, many of them are multiple vaccinations. Some of these vaccination requirements are simply idiotic, for example a Hepatitis vaccine for an infant. Drug users and the promiscuous are at risk for Hepatitis, certainly not the large majority of infants.
Congressman Burton, in a recent congressional hearing on the use of Thimerosol in vaccines, has threatened criminal charges against the government agencies that are responsible for this horrific example of negligence. In the hearings it was revealed that the dangers of Thimerosol had been well understood since 1929. The only test ever conducted on the safety of this preservative was conducted in 1929. All patient participants in the test died and all investigations as to the safety of Thimerosol were abruptly discontinued.
This poison was finally removed from veterinary vaccines in the early 1990's. However, it was retained in human childhood vaccines until just recently when the huge numbers of vaccine damaged children could no longer be ignored.
Dr. Rimland MD when discussing this said: "When the link between unsafe mercury laden vaccine and autism, ADHA, asthma, allergies and diabetes becomes undeniable, mainstream medicine will be sporting a huge, self inflicted and well deserved black eye. Then will come the billion dollar awards, by enraged juries, to the children and their families. I can't wait".
It was the explosive growth of diabetes in America that directly caused this investigative reporter to become interested in the medical community. He contracted a serious case of Diabetes and quickly discovered that the medical community no longer cures it. This, despite the fact that a cure has been well understood since the late 1950's. After having to cure his own diabetes because his doctor would not cure it, he began to take a good hard look at some other widespread medical practices, particularly the highly profitable ones.
Deceptive medicine.
Note that the vaccination itself does not confer immunity. The immunity, in theory, results from the body successfully developing sufficient antibodies quickly enough to avoid acquiring the disease conferred by the vaccination.
The childhood immune system is heavily dependent upon the antibodies it receives from its mother's milk. To stimulate the immature immune system in an effort to produce antibodies that it can not yet produce is at best insanity; at worst it is a most culpable criminal activity.
Neither the kidneys nor the liver of an immature child can clear the relatively huge amounts of mercury poison given along with the active agent in these vaccines.
Perhaps the most pernicious of the incredible deceptions foisted upon a trusting public is the idea that vaccination programs ended the smallpox epidemics of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The only thing about these vaccination programs that ended the epidemics was the discontinuance of the programs. Sometimes many people were jailed and disenfranchised by an arrogant and unresponsive government before they changed the law.
What then did finally eradicate smallpox, which at one time really was a serious matter irrespective of vaccines? The great improvements in the health of people came through the eradication of diseases of filth and of filthy water. These advances consisted of major improvements in diet, hygiene, sanitary and health measures, underground sewage disposal, availability of uncontaminated water, as well as refrigeration and better preservation and distribution of food.
The Center for Disease control in their Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 20, 1999, 48:621-628 stated that improvements in water quality, sanitation and hygiene were the most important factors in the improvement of health and the control of infectious disease. Vaccines were not even considered to be among the factors.
Scientist's John and Sonia McKinlay show the same thing in their research. In fact they were able to quantize these findings. They stated that 97% of the increase in life span since the beginning of the twentieth century is due to the enormous improvements in sanitation of food, water and environment.
World Health statistics Annual 1973-1976 Volume II also attributes the vanishing of infectious disease to improved standards of cleanliness in our food, water and environment.
Do vaccinations really reduce either the incidence of or the severity of smallpox? From the many, many quotations from responsible knowledgeable, and honest, medical professionals that could be used to answer this question perhaps this one will give the most focused response. This quotation is by J.W. Hodge MD. In his book "The vaccination superstition" he states: "After a careful consideration of the history of vaccination gleaned from an impartial and comprehensive study of vital statistics, and pertinent data from every reliable source, and after an experience derived from having vaccinated 31,000 subjects, I am firmly convinced that vaccination cannot be shown to have any logical relation to the diminution of cases of smallpox. Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more susceptible by depressing the vital power and diminishing the natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated"
Perhaps the second most damaging deception provided by the modern medical propaganda ministry is that medical intervention, particularly vaccinations, played a decisive role in the reduction of infectious disease. The real truth is just exactly the opposite. Coincident with the rise in improved sanitation, massive compulsory vaccinations were discontinued and the disease epidemics disappeared very shortly thereafter.
We often hear the statement "there is no doubt that vaccines save lives". Actually there is a very great deal of doubt that vaccines are helpful at all and a great deal of evidence that they are quite harmful. That information just doesn't make it into the popular conciousness. It often doesn't even make it to the retail medical practitioner. The American propaganda ministry makes sure that popular belief is well controlled.
By taking credit for something that they did not do and by suppressing the history of what really happened, our medical elite set the stage for the calamities that now face us as a nation.

Criminal government legislation.
The Model States Health Powers Act contained provisions to mandate compulsory vaccination. Property confiscation, incarceration in "quarantine" centers and the use of law enforcement to ensure compliance was all carefully detailed. This is reminiscent of the "concentration" camps employed by another twentieth century despot when he was redesigning the government of his country. This was to be essentially a state activity. However, many States failed to adopt this totalitarian monstrosity as being alien to our American sense of fitness. Many States tabled it, one State, Alabama, rejected it outright.

To many, it appeared to provide too much power to a government that is showing disturbing signs of being willing to kill large numbers of people any way that they can just so long as they can accomplish their hidden goals.
When it became clear that mandatory vaccination was dead at the State level, it was included in the most totalitarian piece of legislation ever attempted here in America. It was included in The Homeland Security Bill which recently passed and will soon be signed into law by the president. Even many that voted on this bill do not realize what it contains.

Many congressmen did not even read the final draft upon which they voted. This bill provides for "mandatory vaccination of the entire population at the discretion of the director of Homeland Security." All options for refusal of the vaccine have been deleted. Personal, religious and medical exemptions have been deleted; informed consent is no longer required. Refusal will lead to arrest, property confiscation and imprisonment. Tom Ridges, director of Homeland Security is already on record as saying "I have a vaccination with the name of every American on it."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
America - Land of the Deceived and Home of the Enslaved.
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 11:52:48 PM »

Tom, there are people here posting studies, charts, graphs, interviews EVIDENCE, that vaccines are dangerous, while you simply claim you've done your research, and refuse to even say WHERE or WHY you did this research.   Science is ultimately completely corruptible, you can make your results say whatever the funding wants.  If the results don't state that, you lose your funding, it's as easy as that.  I understand we live in a world where parents observations are deemed irrelevant, but I happen to think what I experience and witness in my life is worth more than any scientific study.  The very concept of "unbiased research" is a myth.   There would be no money to do that research in the first place if it was "unbiased".  One only needs to spend an hour on any given autism message board to read heartbreaking story after heartbreaking story of the normal child who disappears after the third round of shots.  My girlfriend works with special needs children, and had an autistic boy who was normal before the shots.  I'll trust that before I trust some random poster claiming 60 hours of research. 
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 06:45:06 AM »

You're ridiculous, guy.  I disagree with you and that makes me an undercover officer?  Give me a break!  The only "shills" are the people who resort to a red herring by attacking the messenger, which apparently is your cup of tea.  You just lost all credibility whatsoever!

Being a "truth seeker" means you consider all sides to a story before making an informed decision...it doesn't mean you blindly support every conspiracy theory presented to you and attack anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Hey, I disagree that the world is flat.  Does that make me an NWO shill?

1) No, what puts up warning signs of a troll is behavior is a person, who dogmatically opposes what most truthers have investigated for years and proven to themselves with evidence that they can post a link to. 

2) They call other members names ("you're ridiculous guy")

3) They don't understand that vaccines would not exist without corporate/government cooperation and shill activity, which grosses tremendous profits for their corrupt club.

4) They ignore common sense. That same common sense which lead most of us to not believe the official 911 story.

5) They ignore doctors and parents who lobby against these vaccines for the safety of the public against all odds and defamation of character, with no financial backing,  because of personal negative experience with these inoculations.

6) Trolls bait Alex Jones by calling him out as a 'conspiracy guy' for believing that vaccines are bad for you - on his own site.

7) Trolls do what trolls do best.  They get everyone else to do the research for them so they can spin it  - so that you do more research, then they spin that, so you do more research, then they call your research into question, so that you do more research, then they attack your methods of research, so that they control the thread and conversation.

So with that said, no name-calling or troll behavior or you will get banned  Smiley



Now, back to this subject.  I work in the Amish community full time.  Their kids are very healthy and have little mental problems.  And no Autism!  Not a single case!  They (Amish when asked) don't even know what the word Autism means.  You don't see glasses on the children's faces as they frolic in the sun, nor hyperactivity when you engage them in conversation.

They are incredibly well behaved, smart, and full of curiosity.  Its like they are from another world.  Just go into WalMart and see the difference in behavior between youths of the same age and their parents (English/Amish).

They are not a special people with magical genes.  They are just like us, except they don't accept the vaccines and for that they become a large piece of the evidence that the shots affect our lives.

The only time I see Amish hurt themselves is when they eat the same crap we do from the Dollar Store.

They start learning English at the age of five and have it mastered by age 8.  That may not seem like a big deal because many countries have duel language children right.  But in the same community in which the Amish live are English children who struggle to learn their own native language. 

Oh, and ADHD is big in the English community here. 

That is why the Amish look at us with sorrow and pain.  They see how sad our lives have become, and they hurt for our children.  Every day I lean a little more about their way of life and I see the wisdom in some of their ways.

One way is not to take the inoculations.


Rock










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Governments don't care, individuals do. MARK TWAIN


« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 08:10:13 AM »

And now a word from me, as if what I am about to say is going to change much in the minds of certain folks reading these words // I doubt it will very much if any at all.  I would hope it does.

I've read the comments of this truly very interesting and equally very important topic thread // I find that some of you speak (write) from past experience directly related to the matters addressed herein, and that can't be a bad thing.  For clarification's sake, people who experience something (or so I believe) come away with valuable first hand experience which in many cases can far out weigh those among us who 'got our learning' from a book // if you can get my understanding there.

However, it is well recognized that time spent on individual research -- is -- time well spent.  It stands unchallenged that such (research) is in fact a valuable learning tool.  However, personal experience stands also unchallenged in my limited way of thinking -- good for sure, maybe even better, all things considered.

I want to tell you (quickly I hope) I massed 2444 hours of research on a target subject //  Now that's a hell of a lot of hours on a subject; and I would think you would surely agree with that statement.

But like most subjects, the same took twists and turns and by its very nature wasn't so easily broken down into ONE and only one tiny single element where forget everything else is the case // I studied Japanese language at a Department of Defense School (which translated to -- no pun intended) to 8-classroom hours Monday - Friday w/2-hours 'extra study' each night, plus 2-hours 'extra refresher study' usually on weekends.

That again is approximately, give or take using this formula: 8+2 hrs per day =10 hrs per day x 5 days per week = 50 total basic hrs per week + 2 extra hours per week = 52 grand total hrs per week x 47 consecutive weeks = 2444 hours // a hell of a lot of hours on any given one subject // as all encompassing and difficult as it truly was.  Nearly one solid year hitting the books hard.

I graduated among a small group of soldiers and at that time was proficient in the target material; I could converse, read, write and had a good understanding of the people and applicable current events.  A damn fine course and a damn fine amount of research and applied effort was necessary to attain those credentials.

Enough said, I would hope.  I tell you this NOT to present myself as an expert BECAUSE thanks to time and inattention (lack of follow up) I have retained very little to nothing as regards that 'time well spent'.  I still retain proof that I did it; I have the credentials -- yet, I am far from being an expert in today's time.

Now to bring this home closer to topic material (MEDICAL) // the things addressed here in this thread are equally complicated and equally difficult areas of understanding.  I have it from good authority (my spouse, employed by Health and Human Services, Washington DC) that when she reviews credentials (of Research Scientist) for employment consideration -- hours towards a given subject mean very little in the overall // YEARS of experience, coupled with YEARS of research is what speaks far more understanding (and knowledge) than mere hours // Almost laughable in fact to present one's self as authority in hours, or so she says.

Presenting certain credentials (whatever the subject) in trying to justify what it is we say, preceded by an announcement/acceptance of our limitations does not 'somehow/regardless' give anyone the right to then SHOUT DOWN other's thoughts and experience and research on any given material in this forum.  We all stand pretty much short when it comes to 'expert' witness to facts and circumstance here, with a few recognized and understandable exceptions, of course.  Generally (this meant for everyone) don't try and SHOUT DOWN another member because you disagree -- it's just not good behavior you doing something like that, and it won't be tolerated.  If you have any 'smarts' at all, and I'm sure you do, I would think you'd understand this completely.

We must all keep focus when making exchanges in this forum; to be sensitive to other's feelings and come to understand that none of us are truly experts in the myriad of exchanges we share -- yes, some are more knowledgeable than others, I'll give you that, but very few of us are true experts.  Presenting oneself as such opens the individual up for possible ridicule and/or challenge.  A not so simple matter of proof lies in what it is we say in this regard, and that goes w/o exception -- but keep in mind that there are always others out there in forumland more knowledgeable on a given subject than we are.   Knowledge is a good thing, a little knowledge can be very dangerous.  Trying to push one's understanding (be it with or without anger) backed with little to no true insight on what it is we say -- can be a dangerous, misleading combination.

No one here should accept another as a subject matter expert (on any of the material) unless they can prove what it is they say.  Other than that, please exercise caution and understanding when commenting upon topics; we are dealing with a cross section of people from all walks of life and experiences from all around the world.  And that's a good thing, we can learn from that.

If you're a true expert // congratulations; all the more power to you.  We welcome your comments and throw ourself at your feet in hopes of gaining some of that valuable experience and knowledge.  Other than that -- please keep things civil and understand there might well be 'smarter' people than even YOU even though you feel master of the subject and willing to place yourself above others in understanding and experience(s).  Don't do that. 

None of this was said to belittle or embarrass or aggravate or rekindle or inflame anyone.  Just wanted to bring this matter into perspective.  Play nice folks // That means everyone.  And thanks for listening and thanks for sharing your continued thoughts.

My best wishes for all of you who have lived this as a problem and/or experienced this matter involving a loved one // We need far better than this, and we should demand it -- the TRUTH.

My $.02     
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 11:30:19 AM »

Someone wanted me to post some of the research I've done, so here is a sample.

1.  Studies show that thimerosal does not "fry childrens' brains"

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/09/thimerosal-didn.html

2.  Sticking Up for Thimerosal -- Read the studies, it's safe.

http://slate.com/id/2123647/

3.  Vaccine Compound Is Harmless, Study Says, as Autism Debate Rages

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/health/27vaccine.html?ref=us

4.  NIAID-Supported Studies on Mercury, Thimerosal, and Vaccine Safety

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosalqa.htm

5.  "Weight of Evidence" Against Thimerosal Causing Neuropsychological Deficits

Quote
"So at the end of the day, we think the weight of the evidence does not support a causal association between thimerosal exposure and 42 neuropsychological outcomes that we tested," Dr. Thompson said.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563439

6.   Study: No link for thimerosal, kids' neurological risks

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/09/26/vaccine.safety.ap/index.html

7.  Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/burbacher.pdf

8.  Study Fails to Show a Connection Between Thimerosal and Autism

http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-may03.htm

9.  Vaccine Link To Autism Refuted In Defining Report

http://www.musckids.com/news/parenting_newsletter/2004_07/


I can't definitively say that thimerosal is perfectly harmless, but you can't definitively say that thimerosal is "poisoning our minds" unless you can prove that the thousands of doctors and researchers who have conducted these studies, and many other studies, are ALL in on some secret conspiracy.
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 11:34:08 AM »

Quote
maybe your not a cop or a shill. maybe i just lost my temper and bashed you with my keyboard. that happens mate. maybe in the future there will be a topic we agree on. vaccines arent it tho.
I understand, bro.  I probably lost my temper too.  I am not a cop or a shill, I just have looked at both sides of this debate and I have carefully evaluated both sides' arguments, and right now I am on the side of thinking thimerosal does not cause significant adverse effects.  Perhaps in the future I will change my mind if some more evidence comes out - I am keeping an open mind on the issue just as I keep an open mind on all issues.  The great thing about freedom is the opportunity to disagree.  "My way or the highway" is the attitude of the fascists and I don't carry that attitude.  I believe one thing and you believe another, and I can respect that.

This is an emotional topic for people because it involves children.  I am sorry for attacking you personally.
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 11:35:49 AM »

I can't definitively say that thimerosal is perfectly harmless, but you can't definitively say that thimerosal is "poisoning our minds" unless you can prove that the thousands of doctors and researchers who have conducted these studies, and many other studies, are ALL in on some secret conspiracy.

And what you can't say and expect anyone to believe is you have all the answers here, not with that tiny string of research you've proudly shown as to your reasoning.

--edited to add:
As to those thousands that apparently support your side of the argument // take the time and list them here.  Like to see that, maybe then I'd start seeing your point of argument a bit clearer.
  
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2007, 11:36:41 AM »

I do not claim to have all the answers.

But none of you have all the answers on this issue either.
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 11:46:02 AM »

I do not claim to have all the answers.

But none of you have all the answers on this issue either.
Understand.  But it's that 'Either' that you just used // That's the key.  So why take up a position that could be an 'either' // do you just like a good argument regardless of the issues?  60 hours an expert doesn't make.  Sorry to break it to you like that, but it's true.  It doesn't do thing one other than perhaps give you a 'feeling of knowledge' and with that a sense of superiority over let's say someone with only 59 hours of research under their belt.

Not trying to start argument here, just trying to make sure matters are kept in perspective.  Some get a bit passionate when it comes to someone sticking a needle in their arm, and then others stating that wasn't such a good idea // we're all human and we do some pretty stupid things at times, thinking what we are doing is for our own best health and interest.  Doing to ourself is one thing, but allowing something that could very well (and as I understand it, there's a lot of evidence supporting this) be potentially harmful to our loved ones IF WE DID NOTHING TO PREVENT IT // Well that would be paramount to child abuse and child negelect and/or child endangerment and/or maybe something even worse.  A very passionate subject for sure, especially when it involves children.  Gotta keep an open mind about those things, even if you don't have children of your own.  I suspect you don't.  Well, many of us do, and we want to do what's right for them, and for ourself and not be so quick to stick out our arm and say GIVE IT TO ME.

--edited to add:
You like research (here's something that caught my eye) // if there's any TRUTH in it, this is a serious subject for sure:
http://www.moseleycollins.com/medical_malpractice.asp
According to an article recently published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, over 180,000 people die each year due to medical mistakes. This has become the third leading cause of death in United States after deaths from heart disease and cancer.

-- Now this might be a fabrication by this lawyer (I haven't checked further other than to say I've heard similar claims in the past);  it makes me stop and think about medical 'anything' related if that's the case.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

(If not considered in bad taste, here's a bit of related medical humor)  // If it isn't -- sorry 
http://www.markfiore.com/?q=taxonomy/term/811
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2007, 12:29:05 PM »

you said he brought up a good point, but that is the worst point i've ever heard.

1.  DON'T vaccinate your kids, that is what one can do.
2.  DON'T send your kids to public school, have them home schooled.  (they just brainwash kids now-a-days anyway, they don't teach real history either).
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2007, 01:38:20 PM »

I could go to a school textbook to obtain my "facts" on Abe Lincoln or Pearl Harbor too, but...why would I?
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2007, 09:42:16 PM »

I live in TX and I did not have my kids vaccinated.  I was concerned about thimerosal.  But one of my kids came down with measles and almost died.  So now I wish I had taken the chance with the vaccination and saved my son the suffering and pain.
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 11:13:16 PM »

Perhaps.  But I'd rather have a bout of measles than a lifetime of autism.  I know my older brother got deathly ill FROM his first vaccine, which luckily was the last he got, and saved me and my sister from ever having to be poisoned by them.
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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 01:22:26 AM »

I live in TX and I did not have my kids vaccinated.  I was concerned about thimerosal.  But one of my kids came down with measles and almost died.  So now I wish I had taken the chance with the vaccination and saved my son the suffering and pain.

Tom, I understand where you are coming from.  Really I do.  Just look at both sides. Thimerosal isn't the ONLY concern about vaccines. Have you ever read Horowitz's book "Emerging Viruses - Aids and Ebola"?  Really, really interesting stuff. See if you can get it at Amazon - you may have to buy it used though.  The last time I looked there were only a few copies left.  His research is very thorough, and covers a wide range of topics that you might want to know about - for your family's sake. While some of his religious beliefs are not what I ascribe to, the medical/research info in there is priceless.  Just use that as a starting point.   Grin
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2007, 04:36:10 AM »

hey TOM SERVO, please post your research.

its one thing to say "i've done 60hrs of research and vaccines are safe" its another to show what 60hrs of research looks like.

i've done no research into this.

but i claim vaccines will kill everyone dead like bio war weapons.


and thats just as valid an argument at this stage, do you see what im saying? show us the research.

(i have seen research that speaks about vaccine being useless, potentially harmful, untested longterm and money making that are very credible, visit www.nexusmagazine.com and look for the articles that mention this, credible sources. to keep the post brief i wont post full articles, links should suffice.)



notashill, I read the Nexus mag religiously and I urge everyone who sees this post to go out and get it, it is full of stuff we NEED to know about !!
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2007, 05:42:56 AM »

TOM - We believe that vaccines kill and maime our children.  As far as the issue of mercury...mercury does not innoculate against measles, so the mercury was not necessary for your child.  If you talk to the millions of American children and their parents about this, you might find that unless we demand safe pharmaceuticals, ALL CHILDREN IN THE COUNTRY ARE AT RISK!

We also believe that there are some nefarious people within the AMA, DEA, FDA, Big Pharma that continually cover this up.

Like Merck (VIOXX)

Or Monsanto

Or this guy who was a 4th generation Bavarian Warrior, then Bioweapons expert for the IDF and now a very influential figure within the American Mediacal Association.  Guess what Tom, his father received the Iron Cross from Adolf Hitler himself.  (No offense but I trust Lew Rockwell's columns more than I trust the AMA.)

Or the HPV Capital Punishment shot for 12 year old girls.

Would you kindly respect our beliefs and not post more conflict of interest documents or random offhanded comments that can further damage the psyche of confused parents who have to watch their children suffer from this pharmaceutical fascism?

Thanks, we appreciate it.
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