ROMANS 13: A Deceptive Mistranslation.

[chris geo]

I could turn this into an article but why bore you? I am a Greek speaking American. My wife was raised in Greece and spent 17 years there. So we decided, let's look up Romans 13:

NIV translation:  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

 1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Greek Version (1550 AD)

 ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 13
 1πασα ψυχη εξουσιαις υπερεχουσαις υποτασσεσθω ου γαρ εστιν εξουσια ει μη απο θεου αι δε ουσαι εξουσιαι υπο του θεου τεταγμεναι εισιν

Translation (WORD FOR WORD)

Every single soul of ruling, dominating (or) submissive, they do not have substance of ruling if they are not from God and under God.

English Translation:

Every governing soul including those in highest command or lowest command have no authority if they are NOT ruling as fair and just as God.


There ya go. It's a statement for revolution. NOT submission to government!! This is according to the GREEK text, which is the ORIGINAL TEXT!

[EvadingGrid]

I could turn this into an article but why bore you? I am a Greek speaking American. My wife was raised in Greece and spent 17 years there. So we decided, let's look up Romans 13:

NIV translation:  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

 1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Greek Version (1550 AD)

 ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 13
 1πασα ψυχη εξουσιαις υπερεχουσαις υποτασσεσθω ου γαρ εστιν εξουσια ει μη απο θεου αι δε ουσαι εξουσιαι υπο του θεου τεταγμεναι εισιν

Translation (WORD FOR WORD)

Every single soul of ruling, dominating (or) submissive, they do not have substance of ruling if they are not from God and under God.

English Translation:

Every governing soul including those in highest command or lowest command have no authority if they are NOT ruling as fair and just as God.


There ya go. It's a statement for revolution. NOT submission to government!! This is according to the GREEK text, which is the ORIGINAL TEXT!

WoW

Truly stunning post
bump +1

[Revolt426]

The people of Greece have never taken shit from anyone ........ as history shows.....

[Revolt426]

Spartens NEVER SURRENDER!

[vcif]

newswithviews had a recent article about this. take a look

http://www.newswithviews.com/Gregory/williams100.htm

[donnay]

I could turn this into an article but why bore you? I am a Greek speaking American. My wife was raised in Greece and spent 17 years there. So we decided, let's look up Romans 13:

NIV translation:  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

 1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Greek Version (1550 AD)

 ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 13
 1πασα ψυχη εξουσιαις υπερεχουσαις υποτασσεσθω ου γαρ εστιν εξουσια ει μη απο θεου αι δε ουσαι εξουσιαι υπο του θεου τεταγμεναι εισιν

Translation (WORD FOR WORD)

Every single soul of ruling, dominating (or) submissive, they do not have substance of ruling if they are not from God and under God.

English Translation:

Every governing soul including those in highest command or lowest command have no authority if they are NOT ruling as fair and just as God.


There ya go. It's a statement for revolution. NOT submission to government!! This is according to the GREEK text, which is the ORIGINAL TEXT!

Great post!  Thanks!

[xTruthSeekerx]

tonight we dine in hell i mean virginia!

[OG]

There ya go. It's a statement for revolution. NOT submission to government!! This is according to the GREEK text, which is the ORIGINAL TEXT!

It is neither a statement for revolution nor [blind] submission to government, rather submission to those who rule through the word of god, or, the church. Of course which church it is that god says you should obey is open to debate.

[kevlar442]

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" in this case a swift kick in the a@@.

[fightbacknow]

Thank you!

Chris, you da man.

[Devotional Soul]

Awesome!  That line in the Bible was one that I never agreed with until now.

[φυδγε]

I'll post it here too, since that other thread is hard to find.


Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις ὑποτασσέσθω, οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν ἐξουσία εἰ μὴ ὑπὸ θεοῦ, αἱ δὲ οὖσαι ὑπὸ θεοῦ τεταγμέναι εἰσίν:

grammatical breakdown:

Πᾶσα - feminine nominative singular - subject of the first independent clause
ψυχὴ - feminine nominative singular - subject of the first independent clause

ἐξουσίαις - feminine dative plural - object of ὑποτασσέσθω
ὑπερεχούσαις - feminine dative plural - adjective modifying ἐξουσίαις

ὑποτασσέσθω - 3rd person singular present imperative middle-passive - verb of the first independent clause
,
οὐ - negating particle
γὰρ - particle
ἔστιν - 3rd person singular present active indicative - verb of the apodosis in a present general condition (subclause dependent on protasis εἰ μὴ)
ἐξουσία - feminine nominative singular - subject of apodosis

εἰ μὴ - conjunction introducing the protasis of a present general condition - assume subjunctive of εἰμί = ᾖ - omitted main verb of second dependent clause
ὑπὸ - preposition
θεοῦ - masculine genitive singular - object of the preposition
,
αἱ - feminine nominative plural - article agreeing with ἐξουσίαις as its antecedent
δὲ - particle
οὖσαι - feminine nominative plural - present active participle - relative clause (who)
ὑπὸ - preposition
θεοῦ - masculine genitive singular - object of the preposition
τεταγμέναι - perfect middle-passive participle - feminine nominative plural - agreeing with ἐξουσίαις
εἰσίν - 3rd singular present active indicative - with τεταγμέναι = passive periphrastic - main verb the third dependent clause,



With the grammar in mind, the translation is as follows -

Let every soul be subject to the authorities on high, for it is not authority unless by god, and those who are authorities have been (must be) ordained by god.

The translation must agree with the grammar of the sentence.  The meaning of the words is only half the battle.

Modern Greek is not like ancient Greek.  Ancient Greek takes most people about 10 years to master.

For more info see

H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0007

[DarthStinky]

dude those hitler movies slay me bro, you song global resistence rocks to, maybe you and krs-one should co-lab?

[lovealexjones]

I'll post it here too, since that other thread is hard to find...


Modern Greek is not like ancient Greek.  Ancient Greek takes most people about 10 years to master.

thanks for clearing that up, faith restored in kjv 1970, well done to you.

[φυδγε]

The definition of each word is not in dispute.  What is required is a grammatical breakdown - clause type, subject, verb, objects, etc...

I would appreciate a third pair of eyes to analyze the passage.

I beg to differ. This is how I understood and broke down the sentence. I wonder if we can get a third Greek person to look at the material.

Πᾶσα- Every

ψυχὴ - soul

ἐξουσίαις - of ruling power

ὑπερεχούσαις - ὑπερ= above .....εχ= has..... ούσαις this is a word ending, not a word itself

ὑποτασσέσθω- ὑπο= under....τασσέσθω= to submit loyaly

οὐ- NOT

γὰρ- "because", can mean "through" can mean "of" (depending on the context) look up γὰρ clauses, this particle can mean lots of things...

ἔστιν- ancient Greek for "is" or in this case "created to be" - this word just means "is" and not much else...
ἐξουσία- "ruling power"
εἰ - "is" or "to be" or "existing".. (being) - this is not a verb, it is a conjunction meaning "if"
μὴ - commanding for "DO NOT" (have the ruling power) - this is not "commanding", its the negating particle for the protasis of a conditional clause.
ὑπὸ - under
θεοῦ- God
αἱ- makes the word exusia plural "any ruling powers" - this is just an article, it meant "the" or "a".
δὲ- "of not" or "do not" which means the noun (being exusia="the ruling power"does not have - incorrect
οὖσαι -plural feminine for substance referring to the "ruling powers" - this is not the noun, but the participle...
ὑπὸ - under or "from" in this case meaning "from inside of God given"
θεοῦ - of God
τεταγμέναι - those who loyally assemble- this is a participle...
εἰσίν: - they are

You should be able to cite the grammatical rules which make your translation accurate, at lease showing what you consider to be the clause type, subject, verb, and object...

I just don't see the possibility of a new translation for the passage, there may however be different ways to interpret the meaning of the passage.

[φυδγε]

Yea, I am an academic scholar on ancient Greek and Latin.  I teach, publish, and grade quizzes/tests/papers on ancient Greek and Latin.

Now that I explained my credentials, can you explain the grammar of your translation which any student or master of ancient Greek should be able to do.

These sentences are not put together arbitrarily.

All translations which I've posted are my own.

Focus on the grammatical logic of the sentence and not whether I am a shill or something.  I've given you the benefit of the doubt many days.  I too remember am an old TX raver and dj.

Contra,

are you Greek? I've asked you several questions in Greek and you didn't answer. I'm just wondering if you're getting your information out of a textbook or you actually speak the language. Because you quoted the translation straight out of the King James Bible and there is NO way you can reach those exact same words if you are fluent in Greek.

And those words are not Ancient Greek. The bible was written in Koin which was a mixture of modern Greek with some Ancient Greek words.

Can you please explain your credentials?

[φυδγε]

you need to make sense of the following to have an accurate translation. 

grammatical breakdown:
Πᾶσα - feminine nominative singular - subject of the first independent clause
ψυχὴ - feminine nominative singular - subject of the first independent clause
ἐξουσίαις - feminine dative plural - object of ὑποτασσέσθω
ὑπερεχούσαις - feminine dative plural - adjective modifying ἐξουσίαις
ὑποτασσέσθω - 3rd person singular present imperative middle-passive - verb of the first independent clause
,
οὐ - negating particle
γὰρ - particle
ἔστιν - 3rd person singular present active indicative - verb of the apodosis in a present general condition (subclause dependent on protasis εἰ μὴ)
ἐξουσία - feminine nominative singular - subject of apodosis

εἰ μὴ - conjunction introducing the protasis of a present general condition - assume subjunctive of εἰμί = ᾖ - omitted main verb of second dependent clause
ὑπὸ - preposition
θεοῦ - masculine genitive singular - object of the preposition
,
αἱ - feminine nominative plural - article agreeing with ἐξουσίαις as its antecedent
δὲ - particle
οὖσαι - feminine nominative plural - present active participle - relative clause (who)
ὑπὸ - preposition
θεοῦ - masculine genitive singular - object of the preposition
τεταγμέναι - perfect middle-passive participle - feminine nominative plural - agreeing with ἐξουσίαις
εἰσίν - 3rd singular present active indicative - with τεταγμέναι = passive periphrastic - main verb the third dependent clause,

I wish for a different interpretation of Romans too.  I'm not happy with the immediate implication of the sentence either.

[snafu]

great post chris

[fightbacknow]

I am NOT a language scholar or anything close to it.  But to just back up Chris...

I've learned from a few sources that it has always been the spoken word that was more important than the written word.  In the spoken word is where the true meaning, the esoteric is found.  Isn't it also true that orthodox Jews believe more strongly in the Torah - the spoken law rather than the Talmud - the written law? Correct me if i'm wrong.

[HeismaN]

Thanks for the info Chris. I've been looking for this true for a while. I posted it on Myspace blog for all to see.


Now all I need to do is make a list of Evil leaders, to show people how misleading this verse can be.

[klangston]

From someone who should know and knows better than I do:


The person's "literal translation" of the Greek is totally off.  There is more than one meaning for a number of the words that he mistranslates.

The forwarded translation states:  "Every governing soul including those in highest command or lowest command have no authority if they are NOT ruling as fair and just as God.

This is just a blatant lie or a very very misguided understanding of the original greek.  The NASB is very well attested as one of the most "word-for-word" translations around.  I checked the translation myself  in the greek and the NASB is as close as you can get without doing an actual inter-linear to make sense of the word order.

Here is my literal translation:"Every person must be under subjection to governing authorities,  For there is no authority, if not by God (interpreted as "except by God's [appointment]), but those that are assigned [or instituted or established] by God."

There are a whole host of grammatical rules and syntax that the forwarded translation ignores or is unaware of.  I don't know how to cut and paste my greek text onto an email, but I'll try to explain nonetheless.

The greek says, "Every person must be under subjection to governing authorities".  The greek word order is such that the subject, "every person" is next to the direct object, "governing authorities" and then the verb "must be under subjection".  The way greek works, very similarly to Spanish, is that every noun has a certain case that tells us if it is subject, direct or indirect object, and possesive form.  Word order is used to denote emphasis and stylistic difference. In this case, the direct object ("governing authorities") is placed before the main verb to emphasize that every person (a common translation for psyche, and not only for "soul") must be subject under GOVERNING AUTHORITIES.  It is the clear intent of the writer, in this case Paul.

Another big mistake, intentional or not, is the second half of the forwarded verse: " they do not have substance of ruling if they are not from God and under God."

The translation is totally off!!!  Whoever made this translation doesn't know his greek at all.  The greek says that "There [the governing authorities] is no governing authority (not "substance of ruling").  " ει μη" is used to denote an exception, which refers to God's authority.  So the meaning is that every person, including us, must be under subjection to governing authorities because their authority is not man-made, but God-ordained, whether intentional or not.  It is "by God" because it is "assigned by God".

I don't know what discussion group this comes from but, it is a very irresponsible translation and a very cynical accusation of mistranslation on the part of the MODERN greek speakers.  Just to add a note, MODERN Greek is not the same as Koine Greek (used from 300 BC- ca. 300AD).  It's like us tying to make sense of the Early or Middle English of Chaucer.  It makes no sense.  Languages change over time and you have to learn the language according to the time period it was used, not by it's modern development.

There are other passages that support the traditional translation and interpretation as well. 

For example, Paul exhorts Titus with similar language in Titus 3.1: "ESV Titus 3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,"

Peter says the same thing in a different way:

    ESV 1 Peter 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,(1 whether it be to the emperor(2 )as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants(1 )of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Anyway that's my reaction.  I would suggest you write the original person who forwarded it to you and make him aware of it's mistakes and misguided translation and interpretation.

[Elvis]

"pasa psuchē exousiais uperechousais upotassesthō ou gar estin exousia ei mē upo theou ai de ousai upo theou tetagmenai eisin
pasa psuchE exousiais uperechousais upotassesthO ou gar estin exousia ei mE upo theou ai de ousai upo theou tetagmenai eisin"

άριστο άτομο

[cueball7]

Good post Chris. In my case I would have titled the subject: the modern day bible/we'll never get whole story.



In the case of the bible, it was first partially composed in 325AD at the council of Nicaea. Until that time, people were free to believe as they wanted. They could love their God and their fellow man as they wanted. During the time of Jesus, almost nobody was literate. People of that era communicated wisdom and knowledge through storytelling. Most of the stories about Jesus, what He did and said, were not actually recorded until 50 to 200 years after He died.

Now study human nature. How difficult is it for 5 people who witness a crime, to come up with the same story? And then for those 5/ to tell 5/ to tell 5/ etc. By the time the 3rd or 4th generation person retells the story-its not even close to what originally happened.

Constantine was one of the most powerful politicians and religious leaders of his time. It bothered him to no end that people were loving God and others in their own way, that there were so many diverse beliefs within mankind. He was the one that arranged the council at Nicaea, where some of the other religious leaders of the time  met to set up a universal belief system. There were numerous writings and texts concerning the life of Jesus. By popular vote, the religious leaders assembled about 60 to 70% of the stories that are in the bible of today. The other 30 or so % was added up until about 1050AD. One of the main issues of contention are the writings left out-its said about 30 to 40% was not used, which would probably tell a much different story then we read today.

Over the years, the bible has been re-translated to fit the belief systems of the current/in power/religious leaders of the time.

The current day bible, has been written in such a way that it condems anybody that doesn't believe it to be the word of God, the literal and only modern day truth on earth.

My God doesn't put any restrictions on how I choose to love Him or others. His gift to us is free will. All I've ever seen different versions of the bible do is put wedges and division between mankind and his God-we are all one with the Creator and each other-lets start living it!           Peace to all! 

[hyperqube]

I am NOT a language scholar or anything close to it.  But to just back up Chris...

I've learned from a few sources that it has always been the spoken word that was more important than the written word.  In the spoken word is where the true meaning, the esoteric is found.  Isn't it also true that orthodox Jews believe more strongly in the Torah - the spoken law rather than the Talmud - the written law? Correct me if i'm wrong.

no the talmud is nothing more than recorded rabinic discussions of the torah.

[bzierath]

However you translate it, God is our Lisbon Treaty.  His decisions supercede government, consititution, and nationality.  It's ironic.  We win

[Kandyk438]

If I'm wrong then the bible is wrong. Because God (not the God I serve anyway) would tell me to bow down to Hitler, Mao, Stalin or the f**king Turks who invaded Greece way back when!


Which actually was my initial feelings until I read the Greek. Then I thought to myself "well hell, I might have been wrong about this whole Christianity= control thing".

You're right. Either way we win 

Do you recall why Daniel was sent to the lion's den?

Daniel went against an ungodly law. He was punished by his government for breaking that law by being sent to the lion's den. God protected Daniel from those lions and he was allowed to go free. 

God's laws are to respected even above man's laws. 

Blessings,
Kandyk438

[wicked1]

I could turn this into an article but why bore you? I am a Greek speaking American. My wife was raised in Greece and spent 17 years there. So we decided, let's look up Romans 13:

NIV translation:  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

 1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Greek Version (1550 AD)

 ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 13
 1πασα ψυχη εξουσιαις υπερεχουσαις υποτασσεσθω ου γαρ εστιν εξουσια ει μη απο θεου αι δε ουσαι εξουσιαι υπο του θεου τεταγμεναι εισιν

Translation (WORD FOR WORD)

Every single soul of ruling, dominating (or) submissive, they do not have substance of ruling if they are not from God and under God.

English Translation:

Every governing soul including those in highest command or lowest command have no authority if they are NOT ruling as fair and just as God.


There ya go. It's a statement for revolution. NOT submission to government!! This is according to the GREEK text, which is the ORIGINAL TEXT!

Wow nice translation.

[φυδγε]

Οne our little disinfo agent had the balls to call me out on....

οὖσαι = substance

Let me remind you that the grammar of the sentence must needs be clarified before an agreement on translations can be reached.

I agree that I do not know nor speak modern Greek.

According to the OP I am brainwashed because I chose to study ancient Greek formally, get multiple degrees in it, and teach it.  I respect his opinion, although I disagree.

I agree with everybody in the thread that says the Bible can be and has been manipulated to fit whatever political and religious agenda at the time.

I am only addressing the text as found in The Greek New Testament along with its very extensive textual tradition.  Could things get mixed up in the process of hand copying the text again and again?  Of course it can.  Could somebody copy it wrong on purpose?  Of course they can.

Finally -

οὖσαι is the present active participle, feminine nominative plural, of the verb εἰμί.

οὐσίαι is a feminine plural noun meaning substance from the noun οὐσία.  I don't believe this word shows up in the passage.

My source is Liddell & Scott (LSJ), A Greek English Lexicon, published by Oxford University Press.

A digital version here:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*o%3Aentry+group%3D83%3Aentry%3Dou%29si%2Fa

Is the Oxford University Press part of a grand conspiracy to deceive us?  I don't know.  Liddell and Scott spent their entire lives compiling it and died before it was finished.

[φυδγε]

No big deal.  I don't think you're a liar or anything.  The other poster should be kinder in his approach.

Here's how I see the breakdown in more layman's terms

First Clause
Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις   ὑποτασσέσθω,
      subject   |    object of verb         |          verb

Second Clause
οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν ἐξουσία    εἰ μὴ                                ὑπὸ θεοῦ,
neg. | verb | subject | conj. | (omitted ἔστιν) | prep. w/ its object

Third Clause
αἱ δὲ        οὖσαι          ὑπὸ θεοῦ       τεταγμέναι εἰσίν
subject | participle | prep. w/ obj. | participle | verb

That Shakespeare quote is trippy; I see it this way:

From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,

while increasing (something) creatures desire (i.e. get their desire) from the fairest creatures
so that beauty's rose may never die.

Fair enough that it has more than one interpretation.   But Ancient and Modern Greek are highly inflected languages which stops many ambiguities but not all of them.

[Puff1]

   But Ancient and Modern Greek are highly inflected languages which stops many ambiguities but not all of them.

Can you tell me if there is a difference in what you are calling "modern" Greek, and what is called "common" Greek?  Are the two the same? 

[KarnEvil9]

I'm more of a Latin specialist and Contra has gone much further in the pursuit of Greek and Classics than I have, but wasn't the Koine of the Greek bible developed by the 4th century AD? I'm just wondering how "modern" got mixed up with "ancient" to form Koine. 

[snafu]

[klangston]

I was only relating what had been sent back to me which I believe came from a pastor.

I think you'll like this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7001957098355129196

[Andycanebt]

I was just thinking about this last night (regarding the existance of God and proof -be it written or verbal),
If God was all-powerful, he would have the power (ablity) to exist but also to not exist because if he couldn't he wouldn't be all powerful.  What more power do you need?

[Amd304912]

romans 13 was a red flag. dont listen to a bible qoute you dont read yourself. that means dont gaf unless you know what it means. g.a.f.

[Livefreeordie]

From someone who should know and knows better than I do:


The person's "literal translation" of the Greek is totally off.  There is more than one meaning for a number of the words that he mistranslates.

The forwarded translation states:  "Every governing soul including those in highest command or lowest command have no authority if they are NOT ruling as fair and just as God.

This is just a blatant lie or a very very misguided understanding of the original greek.  The NASB is very well attested as one of the most "word-for-word" translations around.  I checked the translation myself  in the greek and the NASB is as close as you can get without doing an actual inter-linear to make sense of the word order.

Here is my literal translation:"Every person must be under subjection to governing authorities,  For there is no authority, if not by God (interpreted as "except by God's [appointment]), but those that are assigned [or instituted or established] by God."

There are a whole host of grammatical rules and syntax that the forwarded translation ignores or is unaware of.  I don't know how to cut and paste my greek text onto an email, but I'll try to explain nonetheless.

The greek says, "Every person must be under subjection to governing authorities".  The greek word order is such that the subject, "every person" is next to the direct object, "governing authorities" and then the verb "must be under subjection".  The way greek works, very similarly to Spanish, is that every noun has a certain case that tells us if it is subject, direct or indirect object, and possesive form.  Word order is used to denote emphasis and stylistic difference. In this case, the direct object ("governing authorities") is placed before the main verb to emphasize that every person (a common translation for psyche, and not only for "soul") must be subject under GOVERNING AUTHORITIES.  It is the clear intent of the writer, in this case Paul.

Another big mistake, intentional or not, is the second half of the forwarded verse: " they do not have substance of ruling if they are not from God and under God."

The translation is totally off!!!  Whoever made this translation doesn't know his greek at all.  The greek says that "There [the governing authorities] is no governing authority (not "substance of ruling").  " ει μη" is used to denote an exception, which refers to God's authority.  So the meaning is that every person, including us, must be under subjection to governing authorities because their authority is not man-made, but God-ordained, whether intentional or not.  It is "by God" because it is "assigned by God".

I don't know what discussion group this comes from but, it is a very irresponsible translation and a very cynical accusation of mistranslation on the part of the MODERN greek speakers.  Just to add a note, MODERN Greek is not the same as Koine Greek (used from 300 BC- ca. 300AD).  It's like us tying to make sense of the Early or Middle English of Chaucer.  It makes no sense.  Languages change over time and you have to learn the language according to the time period it was used, not by it's modern development.

There are other passages that support the traditional translation and interpretation as well. 

For example, Paul exhorts Titus with similar language in Titus 3.1: "ESV Titus 3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,"

Peter says the same thing in a different way:

    ESV 1 Peter 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,(1 whether it be to the emperor(2 )as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants(1 )of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Anyway that's my reaction.  I would suggest you write the original person who forwarded it to you and make him aware of it's mistakes and misguided translation and interpretation.

What we have here is a Calvinist!

Calvinist believe we have no free will, GOD "ordained" people to hell...with no chance of Salvation and therefore GOD "ordains" Evil Government...even though GOD cannot Sin.

The Calvin doctrine is one of...if not the most damnedest doctrines out there!

You want to talk about the Government hiring Preachers to push their doctrine of Romans 13 and submission to Government...look no further than the CALVINISTS!!!

"Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked" ~ {Psalm 97:10}

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~ {Isaiah 5:20}

[Avers]

I wish the rest of the bible would be as 'hotly' debated regarding its errors incurred during translations over the years. Never mind the distinct possibility of other errors, deviations and deliberate changes from the actual original texts (whatever they may have been) due to copying, personal taste or even (local) politics.

But as this thread has so very clearly demonstrated, at the very least personal interpretation has played a huge role in what is currently the modern day text. And yet some people actually take these texts literally? Anyone else ever wonder what else in the modern day bible actually doesn't reflect its original message?

[nustada]

ACTS 5:29.

Even if it is strictly translated as obey rulers no matter what. The scripture above states that you must obey god rather than men. If you follow the teachings of god 99% of what our government does is completely out of the question.

When compared with the rest of the scriptures, god allows governments to exists because of the function of punishing the wicked. However satan is the ruler of the WORLD, therefore governments tend to be corrupts, and extend beyond there god given authority, those in government, and those who break the biblical teaching to go along with it will eventually be punished.

Luke 4:5,6
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
1 Peter 3:16, 17
Matthew 25:31-46
1 Peter 2:12-17.
Titus 2:6-8

[mayb]

Depending on if you think America is an extension of Europe (or Babylon) then I think there was a passage stating for His people to come out of her before it was too late.

"Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldees!" (Isaiah 48:20).

"Depart! Depart! Go out from there, touch no unclean thing; go out from the midst of her, be clean, you who bear the vessels of the LORD" (Isaiah 52:11).

"Move from the midst of Babylon, Go out of the land of the Chaldeans" (Jeremiah 50:.

"Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; He shall recompense her" (Jeremiah 51:6).

"We would have healed Babylon, But she is not healed. Forsake her, and let us go everyone to his own country" (Jeremiah 51:9).

"My people, go out of the midst of her! And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord" (Jeremiah 51:45).

"Up, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon" (Zechariah 2:7).

"Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4).


Often I wonder if the correct approach is to move. [Not saying I'm punking out or anything.] But I get the understanding that God deals with holiness, which is separating oneself from sin. And numerous instances God tells people to flee. I think even in some places Jesus "fleed." Not out of fear really, but out of obedience to God. And the question is, considering everything, what does God command.

Would God say stay and take up a sword to defend a country, attachment, oath? That sounds harsh, because it's first instinct, but is that ever the case in the Bible? (No rhetoric, I really could use some secondary insight) Or is God telling His people to flee?

Something also that struck me recently was how Prince Charles coat of arms looks like the Beast described in the Bible. Is this mystery Babylon? If so, where does one go to get out? What if someone can't?

Very deep questions.



Oh and I agree that God wouldn't want his people under tyranny, but there have been times they have been. And I also agree that many churches are gone in one way or another, heresy, apostasy, you name it. Difficult to discern sometimes.

And then there is the question, if Satan is the ruler of this world, and we submit to rulers of the world, are we submitting to the Beast? Is that worshiping the Beast? If rulers are ordained by God, then can Satan's minions be ordained by God?

[infowarrior_039]

Hi; Can the Greek speaking poster and others please post your thoughts on this:

"The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures"
WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA

http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Interlinear-Translation-Greek-Scriptures/dp/B000HZGTH6

This is how they come to this NWT version:

Romans 13:1-14

1 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.
2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves.
3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

heres a scan from thier Greek. How accurate is it ?



please reply
(i must say there seems to be words missing.. it kind of hurts to read that)