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Author Topic: Allodial Title And Property Rights  (Read 21015 times)
Freeski
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« on: January 11, 2009, 05:47:58 PM »

Allodial Title

According to Badnarik in his video series "Constitutional Class" (very great BTW), he talks about Allodial Title. I'd heard the term before but never paid it much attention until today. Badnarik claims that the typical "property owner" may own the bricks and mortar BUT not the land, and that's why the state presumes it can legitimately collect taxes on your property and prevent you from doing certain things (or compell you) with "your" property.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLG_enCA309CA309&q=encounters%20with%20sheeple&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#q=allodial%20title&emb=0 (8.5 min.)

Apparently, unless you have Allodial Title, then you are but a co-owner of the property, be that land, your children or yourself.

He talks about marriage and gun licences and claims that the first of these were instituted just after the war between the states, just after slavery was outlawed, and that the primary reason for instituting them was due to a lack of trust of the recently "freed" black population. The gun license, apparently, gave the state the power to pick and choose which "blacks" could be trusted with the Second Amendment and the marriage license gave them control over racial inter-marrying.

From Wikipedia

Allodial title is a concept in some systems of property law. It describes a situation where real property (land, buildings and fixtures) is owned free and clear of any encumbrances, including liens, mortgages and tax obligations. Allodial title is inalienable, in that it cannot be taken by any operation of law for any reason whatsoever.

This seems to tie in with the "Freeman on the Land" concept, common law vs. marine law and so forth. It relates to cars, too, in that there's a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin whereby even if you pay off your car in full, your Pink Slip is nothing more than a "Certificate of Ownership" - but not the ownership itself, of which the state retains partial ownership allowing them to tax you and require you to register and license your vehicle. If you can get the Allodial Title, which appears to be extremely difficult, then you would have no obligation to the state at all.

More Info

http://www.public-information.net/LandPatant/land-patnt.htm
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 07:59:30 PM »


I just watch his class today. I am wondering about the manufacturers statement of origin. He said if you ask for it and they give it to you the car is yours right then and there and you dont need a licsence or registration ect.  How easy is it to get. im planning on getting a car this summer and it would be nice to own(and only me own it not the state) it and not have to pay anything on it.

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Freeski
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 08:05:49 PM »

I just watch his class today. I am wondering about the manufacturers statement of origin. He said if you ask for it and they give it to you the car is yours right then and there and you dont need a licsence or registration ect.  How easy is it to get. im planning on getting a car this summer and it would be nice to own(and only me own it not the state) it and not have to pay anything on it.



You have a great opportunity to test this! Learn more about how allodial title relates to car ownership then try out what you've learned. You'll probably encounter all kinds of BS and corruption and you can report it all back to us. Just a thought! But if you do it, make sure you really educate yourself first. There are lots here who are familiar with this subject and can give you insight, links and ideas.
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2010, 08:11:12 PM »

You have a great opportunity to test this! Learn more about how allodial title relates to car ownership then try out what you've learned. You'll probably encounter all kinds of BS and corruption and you can report it all back to us. Just a thought! But if you do it, make sure you really educate yourself first. There are lots here who are familiar with this subject and can give you insight, links and ideas.

Help on educating me on the mso would be very apperciated. My question is do all car dealerships give them out. The msos come with all cars so it shouldnt be hard to get.
I think the car dealership person would be in shock because they wouldnt expect anyone to ask for it definetly not an 18 year old

"Its good to be king"
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Freeski
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 08:15:14 PM »

Rumour has it that the scam works because people are okay with it all and never actually ask. So ask, and see if you receive! Grin
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 08:18:54 PM »

What if i ask and they dont give it to me. I like the idea of my veichale being only owned by me and not the government.
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 08:25:38 PM »

If i get the mso. Then the veichale is offical mine and i drive out of the place with it back to my home and i dont have to do anything else with it.
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attietewd
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 08:36:40 PM »

How do I know if I have an Allodial Title?  I own my home.  Where would it state if I do?  What document?
Ty for the article.
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 08:38:56 PM »

http://www.public-information.net/LandPatant/land-patnt.htm

Site not found
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 08:57:58 PM »

How do I know if I have an Allodial Title?  I own my home.  Where would it state if I do?  What document?
Ty for the article.

Do you live in the state of Texas?

If so, you do have allodial title. If not, you don't.
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 09:01:27 PM »

 Cry
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 11:22:18 PM »

http://www.spiritualeconomicsnow.net/solutions/How_I_08.pdf
HOW I CLOBBERED EVERY BUREAUCRATIC CASH-CONFISCATORY AGENCY KNOWN TO MAN
... a Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are
by: Mary Elizabeth: Croft



Johnny Liberty - The Global Sovereign's Handbook
http://www.organicdesign.co.nz/File:Johnny_Liberty_-_The_Global_Sovereign%27s_Handbook.pdf
Manufacturer’s Statement Of Origin ORS 801.185
“Certificate of title” means a paper document issued by any jurisdiction specifically as evidence of vehicle ownership. A certificate of title is not necessarily the only evidence of vehicle ownership issued by a jurisdiction.
Notice the “For Official Government Use Only” sticker on the back of your new stickers from the State. Notice the words “VOID” in the watermark of your “Certificate of Title” in several places. Still don’t believe the State owns your vehicle?
Certificate of Title
1.   indicates “beneficial holder” as part of a trust relationship
2.   State is the trustee 3.   registration, license and insurance required by owner 4.   only an owner can license 5.   revoke State trusteeship over “vehicle” after clearing
yourself of adhesion contracts
To hold true or allodial title to automobiles, trucks, motorcycles, or as we call them, “place-travel devices,” requires a process of either securing the MSO, or revoking the State’s trusteeship over the motor vehicle and exporting it into the jurisdiction of the free republic.
This will not only purchase the vehicle, but also transfer the allodial title to you. You must pay for the vehicle with $21 silver with the balance in FRN’s.
Do not register the vehicle with the State. Leave the plates vacant, looking like a new car from a dealer (even if it’s an old klunker).
So here is a summary of the steps necessary to purchase a used conveyance, and revoking the State’s trusteeship over the motor vehicle and securing true title:
Buying a Used Car
1.   likely, you cannot get the MSO, because it’s been destroyed or microfilmed by the State, therefore you must revoke the States trusteeship over the motor vehicle
2. purchase it with a Bill of Sale including a Bill of Conveyance along with $21 silver and the balance in FRN’s to transfer allodial title
3.   return the “Certificate of Title,” registration and plates to the DMV
4.   dismantle, salvage or export to a foreign jurisdiction OR register it in a company or Trust organization
5.   travel by right freely in your private property OR lease the vehicle from a company or Trust organization.
If the “Certificate of Title” is presently in your name, you must notify the State of your allodial ownership via a Bill of Conveyance or the MSO if can locate it.
Revoke the State trusteeship over the “vehicle.”
You could also transfer the equitable interest of the automobile or truck into a Common law Trust and isolate your liabilities there. Go ahead and transfer the title into your name, or directly into a trust or foreign entity.
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2010, 07:54:17 AM »

Do you live in the state of Texas?

If so, you do have allodial title. If not, you don't.
I live in Buffalo NY but i find it bullshit that only texas allows allodial title. Everystate should allow it they do not own us or the things we own. we do.
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 08:18:42 AM »

Im getting my allodial title to my veichal no matter where i live. I just have this feeling that all states have it.
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2010, 08:27:58 AM »

According to Badnarik in his video series "Constitutional Class" (very great BTW), he talks about Allodial Title.

I reject the allodial title concept because, when taken to its logical conclusion, it results in the earth on which all must live yet which none produced being exclusively and unconditionally "owned" by a mere subset of the population -- the inevitable consequence of which is to infringe upon everyone else's "right" to himself and to the fruits of his labor, since one cannot even be a "self" in the first place unless one occupies a naturally-occurring geographic location on the globe.

In short, to "be" is to be -- "somewhere."

Thus, if you have no equal right of access to land (a "right" being, in Badnarik's very own words, "something you can do without asking for permission"), then by definition you have no equal right to live upon it.

That's the aristocratic definition of "freedom," not the classical liberal one.

       http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=160421.msg971249#msg971249
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 09:22:42 AM »

Allodial Title is a lie. The current incarnation is simply "Pay us up front and we will leave you alone."

But the State is an evil not necessary to the functioning of society and so I don't care what they say.
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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 09:35:27 AM »

Why do i need something to say i own the veichal. Say my car cost $4000 i give the dealership guy $4000 i ge the car and drive it home and thats it. I bought the car i own it so thats all there should be.
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 09:36:57 AM »

Allodial Title is a lie. The current incarnation is simply "Pay us up front and we will leave you alone."

But the State is an evil not necessary to the functioning of society and so I don't care what they say.

As with so many other people I've encountered online, you seem oblivious to how "the State" comes to exist in the first place:

----------------------------------------

http://lysanderspooner.org/node/59

In process of time, the robber, or slaveholding, class -- who had seized all the lands, and held all the means of creating wealth -- began to discover that the easiest mode of managing their slaves, and making them profitable, was not for each slaveholder to hold his specified number of slaves, as he had done before, and as he would hold so many cattle, but to give them so much liberty as would throw upon themselves (the slaves) the responsibility of their own subsistence, and yet compel them to sell their labor to the land-holding class -- their former owners -- for just what the latter might choose to give them.

Of course, these liberated slaves, as some have erroneously called them, having no lands, or other property, and no means of obtaining an independent subsistence, had no alternative -- to save themselves from starvation -- but to sell their labor to the landholders, in exchange only for the coarsest necessaries of life; not always for so much even as that.

These liberated slaves, as they were called, were now scarcely less slaves than they were before. Their means of subsistence were perhaps even more precarious than when each had his own owner, who had an interest to preserve his life. They were liable, at the caprice or interest of the landholders, to be thrown out of home, employment, and the opportunity of even earning a subsistence by their labor. They were, therefore, in large numbers, driven to the necessity of begging, stealing, or starving; and became, of course, dangerous to the property and quiet of their late masters.

The consequence was, that these late owners found it necessary, for their own safety and the safety of their property, to organize themselves more perfectly as a government and make laws for keeping these dangerous people in subjection; that is, laws fixing the prices at which they should be compelled to labor, and also prescribing fearful punishments, even death itself, for such thefts and tresspasses as they were driven to commit, as their only means of saving themselves from starvation.

These laws have continued in force for hundreds, and, in some countries, for thousands of years; and are in force today, in greater or less severity, in nearly all the countries on the globe.

The purpose and effect of these laws have been to maintain, in the hands of the robber, or slave holding class, a monopoly of all lands, and, as far as possible, of all other means of creating wealth; and thus to keep the great body of laborers in such a state of poverty and dependence, as would compel them to sell their labor to their tyrants for the lowest prices at which life could be sustained.

The result of all this is, that the little wealth there is in the world is all in the hands of a few -- that is, in the hands of the law-making, slave-holding class; who are now as much slaveholders in spirit as they ever were, but who accomplish their purposes by means of the laws they make for keeping the laborers in subjection and dependence, instead of each one's owning his individual slaves as so many chattels.

[Continued...]

----------------------------------------

The key point here is that a group of private individuals presuming to "own" all the land comes first, and the "the State" into which they organize out of common interest comes second. (Whether they actually call it such is irrelevant.) That's the inevitable result of allowing the concept of "private property" to be applied to the earth on which all must live yet which none produced in the same unlimited, unconditional sense that it's applied to the products of human labor.

Whether they realize it or not, those who insist on ignoring this fact are helping to morally justify -- and hence perpetuate -- the very aristocratic tyranny they profess to oppose.
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 09:46:55 AM »

As with so many other people I've encountered online, you seem oblivious to how "the State" comes to exist in the first place

And how do you figure what I do or don't understand? Extremely presumptuous of you. On what grounds do I "seem oblivious?"
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 09:49:15 AM »

Why do i need something to say i own the veichal. Say my car cost $4000 i give the dealership guy $4000 i ge the car and drive it home and thats it. I bought the car i own it so thats all there should be.

Without such title, some con artist could always claim that the car was stolen from him, and that the dealership guy therefore had no rightful business selling it to you in the first place, since it was never "his" to sell.

But with such title, you could easily prove to the local judge that the car is indeed yours and not the other guy's, and thereby save yourself the trouble and expense of having to defend yourself in court.
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 09:54:17 AM »

And how do you figure what I do or don't understand? Extremely presumptuous of you. On what grounds do I "seem oblivious?"

That was simply the impression I had. If you have no disagreement with any of the points I made in support of my position on the issue being discussed, then I'll readily concede that my impression was false.
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 10:06:50 AM »

The thing that I find most disturbing is the lies the public swallow.

The public believe that when the mortguage is paid and they get the deeds they own the property.
They are ignorant that Title is not Ownership, and have never heard of "Fee Simple".



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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 10:26:02 AM »

The thing that I find most disturbing is the lies the public swallow.

The public believe that when the mortguage is paid and they get the deeds they own the property.
They are ignorant that Title is not Ownership, and have never heard of "Fee Simple".

They have also never heard of "law-made property" or "labor-made property," and are consequently unaware either of the fundamental difference between the two, or of how elevating (via the tax system) the former above the latter -- as most right-wing ideologues insist we do in the name of "liberty" -- is precisely what liberty-hating aristocrats want.
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 04:59:44 PM »

Without such title, some con artist could always claim that the car was stolen from him,
That idea operates under the presumption that a state-issued "certificate of title" has more legal authority than a private one. It also presumes that the state is honest. and disregards the overwhelming evidence that the State is the biggest con artist of them all.

What if you build a car yourself in your garage?....(tube frames, acetylene torches, and elbow grease) You would be the manufacturer, and issue the title. now what?
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 05:21:03 PM »

That idea operates under the presumption that a state-issued "certificate of title" has more legal authority than a private one. It also presumes that the state is honest. and disregards the overwhelming evidence that the State is the biggest con artist of them all.

You seem to be "presuming" that this stateless fantasy world that anarcho-capitalists are always waxing delusional about could ever be made a physical reality.

I, along with most other Prison Planet Forum members, regard this wishful presumption to be so ridiculous on its face as to not be worth spending countless hours debating ad nauseum about. To understand why, simply watch the following:
 
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE (The American Form of Government)

Bottom line: I'm for limited government, not "no" government. If you object to this, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2010, 06:14:38 PM »

The key point here is that a group of private individuals presuming to "own" all the land comes first, and the "the State" into which they organize out of common interest comes second. (Whether they actually call it such is irrelevant.) That's the inevitable result of allowing the concept of "private property" to be applied to the earth on which all must live yet which none produced in the same unlimited, unconditional sense that it's applied to the products of human labor.

Whether they realize it or not, those who insist on ignoring this fact are helping to morally justify -- and hence perpetuate -- the very aristocratic tyranny they profess to oppose.
You seem to be "presuming" that this stateless fantasy world that anarcho-capitalists are always waxing delusional about could ever be made a physical reality.

I, along with most other Prison Planet Forum members, regard this wishful presumption to be so ridiculous on its face as to not be worth spending countless hours debating ad nauseum about. To understand why, simply watch the following:
 
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE (The American Form of Government)

Bottom line: I'm for limited government, not "no" government. If you object to this, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Wow! barely one page in, and the moderators have already digressed to insults. Classy stuff. anarcho capitalist? lol! You're gonna go there? right outta the gate? really? AJ calls the state crooks and criminals live on air all day long. do you think he's an anarcho-capitalist too? sheesh. really? no...really?

Geolibertarian believes none of us should own land. Thats a wonderful, peaceful, legitimate, and totally cool philosophy for nomadic tribes. But not modern day society, unfortunately. Who's really presuming a stateless fantasy world here? lol!

I asserted that everybody's private contracts > the State's. That is perfectly on topic with this thread. as it is relevant to owning property(cars,houses,land) in allodium. My assertion has not been challenged. But I do see plenty of irrelevant opinions about anarcho-capitalism.


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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2010, 11:19:51 PM »

That idea operates under the presumption that a state-issued "certificate of title" has more legal authority than a private one.

I love that stuff!

You can slice the debate in two directions: philisophically in terms of the "spirit of the law" (not the legalisms), or, under the presumtion that we've already agreed we need some kind of system. Is it possible to have voluntaryism and laws in one system? Yes, but you have to keep it really basic and simple. Some cops and a couple of administrators. What else do we really need?
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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2010, 08:17:01 AM »

Wow! barely one page in, and the moderators have already digressed to insults.

Wow! Someone disagrees with you, and you whine they've "insulted" you. If you're that hypersensitive, why are you posting here in the first place?

Quote
anarcho capitalist? lol! You're gonna go there? right outta the gate? really?

I've been debating ancaps for over a decade, and everything you said came right out of their playbook. So as far as I'm concerned, you are the one who "went there," and I merely responded to it.

Quote
AJ calls the state crooks and criminals live on air all day long. do you think he's an anarcho-capitalist too?

No, because advocates of limited government say these things all the time. But unlike you, Alex focuses on the truly important issues instead of playing hypothetical "what if" games all day long about car titles.

Quote
sheesh. really? no...really?

Yes, really. Would you like me to spell it for you?  Roll Eyes

Quote
Geolibertarian believes none of us should own land.

No, I merely believe that property in land should not be taken to such a ridiculous extreme that it infringes upon the more fundamental property each person has in himself and in the fruits of his labor. And I'm sure I'll have to repeat that at least a dozen more times.

Quote
Thats a wonderful, peaceful, legitimate, and totally cool philosophy for nomadic tribes.

No, it's a straw man of your own making.

Quote
But not modern day society, unfortunately.

"Unfortunately" for you, the rational adults in this forum can read the following and decide for themselves whether my position on this issue is compatible with "modern society" or not, and whether your childish knee-jerk reaction to it is (as I'm convinced it is) rooted in ignorance or not:

       http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=160421.0
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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2010, 08:24:31 AM »

I want a bit of land

Now, the reason I can not have some land is because of the 1% who own most of the land.


I really want to hear some solutions.
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2010, 08:58:46 AM »

Possession is nine-tenths of the law!
    
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2010, 09:15:28 AM »

Possession is nine-tenths of the law!
    

Unfortunately the 1% have possession of 90% of my countryside.

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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2010, 09:15:34 AM »

Possession is nine-tenths of the law!

More precisely, legal possession is nine-tenths of the law (if not more so).

Of the literally millions of acres of land that Ted Turner "owns," how many do you think he's actually set foot on -- or even looked at up close?
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2010, 09:18:13 AM »

More precisely, legal possession is nine-tenths of the law (if not more so).

Of the literally millions of acres of land that Ted Turner "owns," how many do you think he's actually set foot on -- or even looked at up close?

That is the problem

If one person owns a 1000 acres, that is 4,000 people denied 1/4 acre for a veggie plot.


All I want is a couple of acres and to be left alone.
Fat Chance...

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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2010, 09:22:20 AM »

All i need is to get an mso for my car.
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2010, 09:23:58 AM »

All i need is to get an mso for my car.

Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO)

 If you purchased a new vehicle from a new-car dealer, you will have an
 MSO instead of a title.
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2010, 09:29:07 AM »

Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO)

 If you purchased a new vehicle from a new-car dealer, you will have an
 MSO instead of a title.
Im working on buying a car. I figured i would find out more about mso and allodial titles before i get it.
How much do new cars usally cost. Im from buffalo so im not sure if prices  are diffrent in other places.
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2010, 09:30:53 AM »

My expirence is that fertile agricultural land was for sale at £3,500 / $5,000 an acre.

The problem of course is that it is available in lots of over 100 acres...
Lots of people would be happy with just one acre,
but you can not buy just one acre.

Who can afford to buy an entire farm ?


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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2010, 09:38:41 AM »

My expirence is that fertile agricultural land was for sale at £3,500 / $5,000 an acre.

The problem of course is that it is available in lots of over 100 acres...
Lots of people would be happy with just one acre,
but you can not buy just one acre.

Who can afford to buy an entire farm ?

The people stuck in the "work for fiat currency" paradigm insist that one acre isn't enough, and that we'd find it harder if we worked towards self-sufficiency with growing your own food  Roll Eyes

I'm no expert on farming by any means, just tiresome to explain how pointless it is getting involved career ratraces...
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2010, 09:42:19 AM »

The people stuck in the "work for fiat currency" paradigm insist that one acre isn't enough, and that we'd find it harder if we worked towards self-sufficiency with growing your own food  Roll Eyes

I'm no expert on farming by any means, just tiresome to explain how pointless it is getting involved career ratraces...

I had a career in horticulture so one acre is a lot of land.

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« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2010, 11:45:48 AM »

I had a career in horticulture so one acre is a lot of land.

Does that change if you need to keep animals for meat\milk\etc?
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