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Author Topic: Rapture could be faked very soon  (Read 74692 times)
thinkingman
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« Reply #560 on: October 08, 2009, 08:52:53 AM »

"Oh my, but its root word is Harpazo. And thats in the Bible. In fact its Greek. -Dok"

Yes but there was only one Greek disciple, and the majority of issues Yashua preached were addressing the Pharisees. The disciples went and preached out and about. Did you know that there are 28000 Greek manuscripts and partial manuscripts that translated the words of Yashua into Greek? All 28000 are not identical for example in Eph Ch.1 verse 18 one mauscripts reads "the eyes of your heart being enlightened", and another "the eyes of your understanding being enlightened."  So which is right does it not say in the last chapter of revelation to not add nor take away from this book? Alot of Messianic Jews see the Semitic style in which the Greek were translating from for the Greek people. So in the end what we all would to see is everyone be saved.

~thinkingman
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« Reply #561 on: October 08, 2009, 09:07:04 AM »

Your Greek disciple argument is ludicrous. Ever heard or the Greek Empire that preceded the Romans? Greek was a language spoken all over the region, and the Greek MS underlying the KJB didn't come from Greece. Paul obviously spoke Greek on Mars Hill.

Both tranlations are correct. You are supposed to understand with your heart as well as your head. In translating, it is not always possible to translate words 1/1.
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« Reply #562 on: October 08, 2009, 09:40:36 AM »

Whatever the language, it is the Holy Ghost that gives us understanding in what we read anyway. Since scripture says that with God all things are possible, it's possible one could even understand a language they don't speak if that's what God wanted to happen.

Without the Holy Ghost to give understanding, it's all Greek!

"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 (KJV)
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« Reply #563 on: October 08, 2009, 09:41:13 AM »

"Oh my, but its root word is Harpazo. And thats in the Bible. In fact its Greek. -Dok"

Yes but there was only one Greek disciple, and the majority of issues Yashua preached were addressing the Pharisees. The disciples went and preached out and about. Did you know that there are 28000 Greek manuscripts and partial manuscripts that translated the words of Yashua into Greek? All 28000 are not identical for example in Eph Ch.1 verse 18 one mauscripts reads "the eyes of your heart being enlightened", and another "the eyes of your understanding being enlightened."  So which is right does it not say in the last chapter of revelation to not add nor take away from this book? Alot of Messianic Jews see the Semitic style in which the Greek were translating from for the Greek people. So in the end what we all would to see is everyone be saved.

~thinkingman

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Is correct.
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« Reply #564 on: October 08, 2009, 11:27:53 AM »

Your Greek disciple argument is ludicrous. Ever heard or the Greek Empire that preceded the Romans? Greek was a language spoken all over the region, and the Greek MS underlying the KJB didn't come from Greece. Paul obviously spoke Greek on Mars Hill.

Both tranlations are correct. You are supposed to understand with your heart as well as your head. In translating, it is not always possible to translate words 1/1.

Correct there was a Greek Empire but that argument is very weak. Irregardless the people of Israel spoke in Hebrew, taught in Hebrew, and lived a Hebrew life. Just because there was Greek, Roman, and whatever Empire of that day may of been in control never mattered. I would not doubt Paul had spoke Greek anywhere in his travels, but, still all writings were translated from original Hebrew or Aramaic texts. So yes the Greek scholars translated to their hearts content. Why? Cause they were not oroginally written in Greek. Thanks for agreeing that the new testament was translated into Greek.

~thinkingman
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« Reply #565 on: October 08, 2009, 11:35:14 AM »

Correct there was a Greek Empire but that argument is very weak. Irregardless the people of Israel spoke in Hebrew, taught in Hebrew, and lived a Hebrew life. Just because there was Greek, Roman, and whatever Empire of that day may of been in control never mattered. I would not doubt Paul had spoke Greek anywhere in his travels, but, still all writings were translated from original Hebrew or Aramaic texts. So yes the Greek scholars translated to their hearts content. Why? Cause they were not oroginally written in Greek. Thanks for agreeing that the new testament was translated into Greek.

~thinkingman

and you cant prove that any od the new testament was originally written in anything other than greek.
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« Reply #566 on: October 08, 2009, 12:15:01 PM »

and you cant prove that any od the new testament was originally written in anything other than greek.

A HEBREW OR GREEK NEW TESTAMENT?
http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat3b.htm

Another contibuting factor to misinterpretation is that the books of the "New Testament" are "Greek documents." The fact that the "New Testament" texts we have are in Greek, makes them no more "Greek documents" than the Septuagint (Greek) version of the Old Testament, which the rabbis wrote into Greek 200 years before Yeshua. The rabbis did this (as did someone at some point with the "New Testament" letters), for the benefit of the non-Jewish world so that they could also learn of the God and faith of Israel.

Thus, the "New Testament" documents remain Hebrew texts written in a Hebrew mindset, and must be studied that way, if we are to determine what the authors' meanings are. And until we learn the true original meaning, discussing "what the verse means to us" (as is done in many so called "studies") is a an exercise in futility and leads to error.

Having said that, there is overwhelming evidence, both historical and linguistic that shows that the texts were originally written in Hebrew, and also that Hebrew was not a "dead language" (as was thought of for quite some time). A good source of information on the latter is "Biblical Archaeology Review" (BAR) magazine. BAR has had articles in the past few years on digs that have unearthed documents from around the first century written in Hebrew, including legal documents and one woman's personal diary.

Other sources testifying to Hebrew being the language of 1st century Jews and a Hebrew origin of the "New Testament" documents include:

1. Recent Qumran findings (Dead Sea Scrolls) shows secular documents written at that time concerning "current events" (i.e., not just copies of old religious texts.) indicating Hebrew was a "living" language. There are several books on the Dead Sea Scrolls available. Contact YashaNet for recommendations if interested.
2. Jewish coins found from that era are minted with Hebrew text on them.
In these verses we have Yeshua speaking about money, and not making it more important than God. Note that He begins speaking about money, then says something about "an evil eye," then finishes His statement about money. If this were penned in Greek originally, you would have to ask, "Why this odd verse about an "evil eye" in the midst of a money topic?" It makes no sense. However, if you happen to know that having an "evil eye" is a Hebrew idiom of that time for "being stingy with your money," then, a) the passage makes sense, and b) you realize it HAD to be written in Hebrew first, then whoever translated it into Greek, (unaware of the idiom), simply took it word-for-word from Hebrew into the Greek.

There are many "New Testament" verses that are very hard, if not impossible, to understand without knowledge of the deeper teachings of the Judaism of that day. There are also many places where Yeshua and Paul quote from Jewish literature as shown elsewhere in this study.

It is important to note who these letters were originally meant to be read by "leaders" in the Messianic community (most likely Jews), who were well versed in the Judaism of the first century and its understanding of Torah.. (Note Peter's concerns about Paul's letters being hard to understand and often twisted about by "lawless" people -- "lawless" meaning not knowing or respecting Torah, the "Law.")

Nothing in the "New Testament" was ever meant to be read out of context, by people from another culture ignorant of the Hebrew meaning to the words and the concepts behind them, and replacing this with their own personal meaning. Nor were any of the "New Testament" documents ever meant to stand on their own, apart from being interpreted in the context of the Torah (God's direct revelation/instruction), which of course came first.

3. A study of the writings of the Christian "Church Fathers" shows that much of the "New Testament" was written in Hebrew. This includes direct statements made by; Papias, Ireneus, Origin, Eusubius, Epiphaneus, Jerome and Clement of Alexandria.

4. The prominent first century historian Josephus wrote in both his books, Antiquities and Wars, that Hebrew was the language of first century Jews and that they did not know Greek. (In fact there is a Jewish tradition saying it is better to eat swine than learn Greek.)

5. Modern linguistics (thanks to the input of cognisant Messianic Jewish and gentile scholars) shows that the text themselves don't lend to an "original Greek" translation. A very good book you want to get with dozens of examples is, The Semitic Origin of the New Testament, by James Trimm. This can be ordered via www.nazarene.net. Also recommended is the Hebrew/Aramaic New Testament Research Institute at www.nazarene.net/hantri/

6. Other books, such as The Jewish New Testament, by David Stern are also helpful in showing the Hebrew thought that gets lost in the Greek/English. (The latter can be ordered through Amazon.com.)

An example of a proof for an original Hebrew text, is Matthew 6:19-24:

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Please read, reread, and read again point number 4 then research and look into it yourself thanks.

~thinkingman
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« Reply #567 on: October 08, 2009, 05:26:55 PM »

Quote
Thanks for agreeing that the new testament was translated into Greek.

Are you trying to be cute? I never said that. The Greek texts were translated into English, which was the subject of the discussion.

Your prime fallacy is that the NT was written for the Hebrew-speaking Jews. It wasn't. It was ALL written AFTER the Jews failed to meet the requirements for having their kingdom restored and had been set aside... in short, it was written for a church made up primarily of Gentiles who DID NOT speak Hebrew. Your entire theory is founded on circumstantial and irrelevant evidence.
 
Re:
Quote
...the Septuagint (Greek) version of the Old Testament, which the rabbis wrote into Greek 200 years before Yeshua

That's a baseless myth among a lot of people who consider themselves to be scholars, but has been thoroughly debunked. There is no evidence whatsoever that the original NT MS were Hebrew. They were written by Jews with a Hebrew mindset, but while there are Greek NT fragments dating to about 130 AD, there is not a single shred of evidence that the Apostles wrote their contributions to the canon in Hebrew.
Quoting from ch. 4, THE MYTHOLOGICAL LXX


The nearest thing to an Old Testament Greek Bible anyone ever found was the Ryland Papyrus (No. 458), which had a few portions of Deuteronomy 23-28 on it. And even this piece of papyrus was dated 150B.C., fifty to one hundred years later than the writing of the so-called "Septuagint." What scholars refer to as "Septuagint papyri" are 24 pieces of paper, written 200 years after the death of Christ. These fragments are as follows:
        1. Pieces on Genesis, 200-400 A.D. (Berlin Genesis [ 1], Amherst [2], British Museum [3], and Oxyrhyncus [4] ).
        2. A Bodleian papyrus leaf [5] containing part of Song of Solomon, written between 600-750 A.D.
   3. An Amherst papyrus [6] containing part of Job 1 and 2, written between 600-700 A.D.
   4. An Amherst papyrus [7] containing parts of Psalm 5, written between 400-550 A.D.
   5. Fragmenta Londinensia [8], in British Museum, containing parts of Psalm 10,18,20-34, written between 600-750 A.D.
   6. British Museum "230" [9], containing Psalm 12:7-15:4, written between 220-300 A.D.
   7. A Berlin papyrus [ 10] containing Psalm 40:26-41 :4, written between 250-400 A.D.
   8. Oxyrhyncus papyrus "845" [ 11 ] containing parts of Psalm 68,70, written between 300-500 A.D.
   9. Amherst papyrus [ 12] has part of Psalm 108,118,135,138,139, and 140, written between 600-700 A.D.
   10. Leipzig papyrus [13] which has part of the Psalms, written around 800 A.D.
   11. Heidelberg Codex [14] containing Zechariah 4:6-Malachi 4:5, written around 600-700 A.D.
   12. Oxyrhyncus "846" [15], contains part of Amos 2, and was written between 500-600 A.D.
   13. A Rainer papyrus (16], containing Isaiah 38, in part; written between 200-300 A.D.
   14. A Bodleian papyrus [17], containing part of Ezekie15-6, written between 200-300 A.D.
   15. The Rylands papyri:
      a. Deuteronomy 2,3 [ 18], written between 1300-1400 A.D.
      b. Job 1,5,6 [19], written between 550-700 A.D.
      c. Psalm 90 [20], written between 400-600 A.D.
   16.The Oxyrhyncus volumes have parts of:
      a. Exodus 21,22,40 [21,22], written between 200-300 A.D.
      b. Genesis 16 [23], written between 200-300 A.D.
           c. Genesis 31 [24], written between 300-400 A.D.

It does not take a man with a Master's degree to see that what the Select Group calls "Septuagint Papyrus" is a collection of fragments written 200-800 years too late to be connected with anything that would resemble a "Septuagint." People who believe that there was a Septuagint before the time of Christ, are living in a dream world. The Hebrew believers (from 4 B.C. to the conversion of Paul) had a complete and authoritative Hebrew Bible which God gave to the Hebrews (Rom 3:1-4) for them to use. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc., wrote a Greek Testament for Christian believers which they were to use. Since Gentile believers wind up outnumbering Hebrew believers better than 10,000 to one in the next 19 centuries, they are given a GENTILE Bible. The "LXX" (or "Septuagint") was plainly an attempt by the individuals referred to in Romans 11:20,25 and Jeremiah 33:24 to replace the inspired "oracles of God" with the conjectures of Alexandrian Greek philosophy.
There may show up, from time to time, scraps of paper which will have on them portions of Old Testament passages, written before 30 A.D., but to use ONE (Rylands, 458; about whose origination there is still a question) as a basis for saying that Luke (Acts 15: 12-18) is quoting a Greek Bible while recording what James says, is just a little too much for common, ordinary, honest people.
Whenever a fragment of the O.T. Greek is found, it is classified, immediately, by the Scholar's Union as "LXX."19 That is, it is taken for granted that a Greek Old Testament was translated by 70 Jews before the time of Christ. Now go back to the first two paragraphs of this chapter and read them again - 70 is LXX, 72 is NOT "LXX." This juggling is exactly like the one where the student is told, "The originals say ... ," "the original reads ... ," "the original has a different wording," etc., until he has lost his faith in the A.V. 1611. Then he finds out there are no "originals!" These two discoveries leave the ministerial student where Altizer found himself - no revelation, no authority, no call to the ministry, and nothing to minister.
At the very outset, then, the young man who is called to preach should adjust himself to the style of his professors, and realize that the foundation upon which they have replaced the A.V. 1611 New Testament with such counterfeits as the RV, ASV, and RSV, is a corrupt foundation itself. At the date of this writing, the "manuscript evidence" for a Greek translation of the O.T. (before the time of Christ) is one piece of papyrus with part of 5 chapters of Deuteronomy on it.
These odds are one out of twenty-four. But this does not tell the whole story, for recently (in addition to the papyri finds of Grenfell, Petrie, and Hunt)20 other papyrus fragments have been discovered which the Scholar's Union immediately labeled "LXX."
These are:
1. Portions of Numbers and Deuteronomy, written in 150 A.D.
2. Portions of Isaiah, written in 230 A.D.
3. Portions of Genesis 8,24,25, 30-47, written 350 A.D.
4. Portions of Genesis 9:1-44:22, written 350 A.D.
5. Papyrus 911, containing Genesis 1-35, written around 390 A.D.

It does not take a high school graduate to see that this collection of Chester Beatty papyri proves nothing except that somebody, long after the New Testament was completed, tried to translate the Hebrew into Greek.21
Our odds, now, are one out of twenty-nine.
But if a thousand pieces of papyrus were recovered with Old Testament Greek on them, written before 100 B.C., nothing could bolster the sagging testimony of the LXX, for the real proof that it is a fraud can be found in the Vatican and Sinaitic manuscripts already discovered.
Here is the classic example of fraud in the Biblical realm.

 
"Momma's little helpers" - the Greek faculty at Alexandria (100-300 A.D.) - have inserted the "75" of Acts 7:14 back into Genesis 46:26,27, and then, realizing that the numbers would not add up (!), they added NINE fictitious names to Genesis 46:20 to make up the difference!
It would be hard to believe that men of the caliber of Dr. A.T. Robertson, J.G. Machen, Benjamin Warfield, and Kenneth Wuest could swallow such a story as the one that now is postulated by the Scholar's Union - Origen to English, inclusive.
The story you are to believe is that Stephen, in the middle of a Spirit-filled address to the enemies of Christ, speaking as a Hebrew to Hebrews in the Sanhedrin, quoted from a Greek manuscript of Genesis (which only survives 200 years after Stephen's death!) in which 9 names were added in violation of the Hebrew laws concerning Bible translating (Prov 30:6).
You are expected to believe this in the face of the evidence and the evidence is that nothing like "75" is found in Genesis 46:26,27, anywhere, before 200 years after Stephen had gone home to glory.
If you believe it, you are a fool.

Another classic example of Alexandrian buffoonery is found in Genesis 47:31. Το justify the use of Images as "aids to worship," the North African faculty transposed Hebrews 11: 21, "προσεκυνησεν" into Genesis 47:31, to make the faculty members of Bob Jones and Tennessee Temple think that the author of Hebrews was "using the Septuagint." But, horrors! The corruptible pen of the corrupt scribe who made the corruption, failed to notice that the context of Hebrews 11:21 wαs not that of Genesis 47!!
 
The context of Hebrews 11:21, "When he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph," is Genesis 48:12!
The reader can see, immediately, that the writer of the Post-Apostolic "LXX", has forced the writer of Hebrews into a contradiction which he never made when he penned the words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But the myth of the "LXX" is so strong that this blatant contradiction escaped the notice of Calvin, Keil, Delitzsch, Hengstenberg, Murphy, Rosenmuller, Kennicott, De Rossi, DeWette, Berkhof, Machen, Wuest, Weiss, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Nestle, Deismann, Swete, Westcott and Hort, and Gesenius! (There is apparently something about "higher education" even in Conservative Christian schools, which prevents a man from believing the Bible, whether that man be an Evangelical, an Orthodox, a Dead Orthodox, a Papist, a Jew, an Agnostic Atheist, Conservative, Neo-orthodox, or Fundamentalist!) 99.99% of these superstitious people believe, to this day, that the writer of Hebrews 11:21 didn't have any more sense than to copy a Greek reading of Genesis 47:31, which is in the wrong place!
These are only one or two examples of the approach· of "modern scholarship" to finding the "original text." They do demonstrate, however, an appalling lack of common sense, an amazing amount of credulity, and a preposterous faith in Greek scholarship to sell itself to Christians like Peter, James, John, and Andrew (commer cial fishermen!!).
The first lessons which the true Bible believing Christian should learn about Manuscript Evidence are:
1. There is no manuscript evidence that any New Testament Christian wasted five minutes with a Greek O.T. that came out of Alexandria - or anywhere else.
2. There is no evidence at all to support the untenable theory that any group of scholars translated the Old Testament into Greek between 250-150 B.C.
3. What is referred to as the "LXX" (or Septuagint) is (90% of the time) the corrupt Vatican MS (350 A.D.), and Sinaiticus MS (350 A.D.) which contain "Bel and the Dragon," "Tobit," "Judith," etc. These were written by Eusebius or Pamphilus 22 (or someone just as fouled up as they were!) They survive in excellent condition today because all Bible believing Christians knew that they were about as Biblical as Mickey Mouse.23 This "LXX" was written more than 250 years after the completion of the New Testament canon and it is the only "LXX" anyone knows anything about.
4. In view of the fact that the "Letter to Aristeas" is a spurious fabrication (probably from the pen of Philo, himself), in view of the fact that the LXX contradicts the Hebrew Old Testament text, in view of the fact that the Greeks "seek wisdom" and resented the oracles of God being given to Israel, in view of the fact that the "Wisdom seekers" (Gen 3: 1-6) are still with us today and inherit the sins of their fathers (Matt 23 :30,31), the first rule in the study of Manuscript Evidence is this - where the so-called "LXX" contradicts the readings of the A. V. 1611 Old Testament, throw it in the waste basket.
The serious student of scripture - not Greek mythology - will observe that the order of the books in the Old Testament (in the A. V. 1611) has NOT been laid out with the "Septuagint" in mind, although one can find similarities. The truth of the matter is, the unconverted Jew has been left with a revelation from God in his Hebrew Bible, which warns him (in the last verse of the last chapter of the last book - 2 Chronicles 36:23) to get up and go back to Jerusalem. This is God's message for Israel in the end time. The order of the books in the A.V. 1611 doesn't follow the order of the mythological Septuagint at all, for the copies of the "Septuagint" which scholars quote, contain the Apocrypha as part of the Old Testament!24 Neither Luther's Bible (1532-1545) nor the Authorized Bible (1611) ever included the Apocrypha as part of the inspired Oracles of God.2 5 Martin Luther and Dr. Reynolds (1611) had more sense than Westcott and Hort who lived 240-320 years after them.26
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« Reply #568 on: October 08, 2009, 05:42:26 PM »

GALILEE OF THE GENTILES

In Galilee, where Jesus grew up, the population was by no means wholly Jewish. Since the fall of Israel, about 600 B.C., it had been under Jewish domination only during the rule of the Maccabees. You see, when Jesus was a boy, Galilee had been under Jewish rule for only about a century out of the past six hundred years.

When Jesus lived there, it was ruled by Rome not by Jews. Herod the tetrarch, who ruled Galilee when Jesus was born, was not Jewish. He was an Idumaean, a descendant of Esau. Of course, he ruled at the bidding of the Roman Emperor.

In the Scripture, you will recall, Galilee is called "Galilee of the Gentiles." It had a number of non-Jewish cities and a large non-Jewish population. The sea of Galilee was surrounded by Greek cities.3

Not every city on the sea was Greek, but many were. Decapolis (This word is Greek for Ten Cities.) bordering the sea to the east and south were Hellenistic cities. Tiberias, built to honor the Roman emperor by that name, was on the southwestern shore. Sephoris, a thoroughly Greek city, was not an hour's walk north of Nazareth. Galilee had a large Greek and other Gentile presence. The culture of these people was Greek and they spoke the Greek language.

Jesus traveled to some of the Greek cities in the area. Once near Tyre and Sidon he had a conversation with a Greek lady and healed her daughter. It is not unreasonable to believe that Jesus spoke Greek to her. The Jews with whom Jesus had contact knew he could speak Greek. They said he would be able to teach the Greeks. Remember their comments.

Where does this man intend to go that we
cannot find him? Will he go where our people
live scattered among the Greeks, and teach
the Greeks?
                                         John 7:35 (N.I.V.)
 

You are able to see that Jesus lived and worked in an area with more than one language.4 He spent much of his life in Galilee of the Gentiles. He traveled to Greek cities and talked with Greek people. His native language may have been Aramaic, but without any doubt he also spoke Greek.

3. Burton L. Mack, The Lost Gospel (San Francisco, Harper, 1993). In his forth chapter entitled "Galilee Before The War", Mack says: "Three hundred years of hellenistic influence just before the time of Jesus is an especially important factor. Hellenistic influence has been downplayed by scholars in the interest of buttressing the picture of Jesus appearing in the midst of a thoroughly Jewish culture. Unfortunately for this view, archeological evidence of hellenization in Galilee continues to increase. Since language is such a basic index of cultural influence, it is significant that southern Galilee was largely Greek speaking in the first century, though of course bilingual."

4. Bruce M. Metzger, The New Testament its background, growth, and content (Nashville, Abingdon, 1965). On page 32, Metzger says: "The Greek language, on the contrary, was widely understood in Palestine, particularly in the north, which was commonly called "Galilee of the Gentiles".

NIV Roll Eyes
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« Reply #569 on: October 08, 2009, 09:23:30 PM »

I have a question for everyone here - do you really think we'll be wisked away BEFORE ANY TSHTF scenerio?

I mean the Rapture Ready clowns, in particular, are pretty dogmatic that it's ONLY the rapture of the church that will trigger this final economic collapse, quite simply b/c most of the Christians are in America, which is the financial capitol of the world, and with all these disappearances, the economy will end up going south in a major way as alot of debts et al won't get paid off anymore, many won't be around to buy stuff to boost the economy, etc.

I mean this is just silly - b/c the dollar is ALREADY tanking, and job losses are continuing to go downhill.
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« Reply #570 on: October 08, 2009, 09:32:31 PM »

I personally don't believe we will be raptured before hand.. that may be out test. but it seems people believe that because they're looking for an easy way out.. if Jesus was tested and tried why shouldn't we..and those who are awaiting a rapture may find themselves disappointed and fooled to believe their is no god because he didn't come and save them..A rapture would be wonderful but i am not expecting one and will take whatever i must endure to find my way into god's kingdom.
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The Hegalian Dialect:Control thru duality. Guide and manage a conflict and chaos so both sides have the same destination(order). It symbolizes a pyramid meanig left thesis vs. right thesis =middle thesis. 1 leads to 2 leads to 3.The 3rd is possible because of and NOT insipit of the 2 opposing sides.
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« Reply #571 on: October 09, 2009, 04:39:39 AM »

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I have a question for everyone here - do you really think we'll be wisked away BEFORE ANY TSHTF scenerio?

of course not. The stuff has been hitting the fan regularly throughout human history, but the Tribulation will be a period of time set apart from all other stuff hitting the fan. There has to be a world-shaking seminal event that serves as an indisputable starting point of what is clearly a limited period of time culminating in the Second Coming.

Quote
if Jesus was tested and tried why shouldn't we..

Because the Trib is intended as God' wrath on the unbelieving world and to save a remnant of Israel, not to purify the Body of Christ, which is already washed in His blood and legally sinless in God's eyes. We are not appointed unto wrath.
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« Reply #572 on: October 09, 2009, 08:49:55 AM »

I personally don't believe we will be raptured before hand.. that may be out test. but it seems people believe that because they're looking for an easy way out.. if Jesus was tested and tried why shouldn't we..and those who are awaiting a rapture may find themselves disappointed and fooled to believe their is no god because he didn't come and save them..A rapture would be wonderful but i am not expecting one and will take whatever i must endure to find my way into god's kingdom.

And don't forget about David - he wasn't persecuted as much as the other prophets and saints in the bible, but nonetheless, this man FERVENTLY prayed for DAYS for God to give him protection. God gave him alot of protection from alot of calamities, but it resulted b/c David prayed alot and had alot of faith.

Again - I'm not going to get into this pre/post rapture debate, but alot(but not all) of these pre-rapture crowd seems to be apathetic, complacent, and acting like they can just sit back and relax until their next flight to the Cayman Islands. I mean at the very least, they should get on your tails praying. We can't deny that there are ALOT of DEMONIC forces out there hitting this nation - Eph 6:12, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers, against principalities, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places. In a recent Steve Quayle interview, he talked about demonic forces hitting this country and world, and they're getting worse b/c the church is ASLEEP.
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« Reply #573 on: October 09, 2009, 09:30:00 AM »

There is no rapture. There's only tribulation period followed by the Messiah destroying all non believers, and then the remaining people having their bodies transformed into ''spirit form'' and are caught up into the air in a twinkling of an eyes moment. It's that simple because that's what written in the Scriptures!

Like mentioned above - whatever happened to praying to God for PROTECTION? Whatever happened to IMPRECATORY PRAYERS that Steve Quayle has been harping about? B/c our church, as much as I hate to say it, is asleep, demonic forces have grown in abundance over the last 25-30 years.

Forget about the end times and rapture for now, we SHOULD be focusing on THIS.
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« Reply #574 on: October 09, 2009, 09:37:47 AM »

Rapture can be examined logically

Lets examine the two basic possibilities

(1) Raptue Theory is correct
Nobody need fight the New World Order, everything will be fine because you will be raptured.

(2) Rapture Theory is incorrect

Following the destruction of America in One Hour, the European Union becomes the Worlds Dominant SuperPower headed by the antichrist. You will either die in a camp, be executed, die of plague, die of famine, or get vaporized by a nuke, drown in sunami.

Now, call me stupid, but one path seems more logical to bet on than the other.

If you bet on (1) Rapture is correct. And you are wrong, it will cause your death.
If you bet on (2) Rapture is incorrect. And you are wrong, no harm no foul.

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« Reply #575 on: October 09, 2009, 09:40:56 AM »

Rapture can be examined logically

Lets examine the two basic possibilities

(1) Raptue Theory is correct
Nobody need fight the New World Order, everything will be fine because you will be raptured.

(2) Rapture Theory is incorrect

Following the destruction of America in One Hour, the European Union becomes the Worlds Dominant SuperPower headed by the antichrist. You will either die in a camp, be executed, die of plague, die of famine, or get vaporized by a nuke, drown in sunami.

Now, call me stupid, but one path seems more logical to bet on than the other.

If you bet on (1) Rapture is correct. And you are wrong, it will cause your death.
If you bet on (2) Rapture is incorrect. And you are wrong, no harm no foul.



Matthew 6:15 - Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all things shall be added unto you.

Less not forget, our TREASURES and HOME are in HEAVEN(John 14:1-3), and NOT on this earth.
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« Reply #576 on: October 09, 2009, 09:42:12 AM »

It would be incredibly stupid if there was no rapture, and it would make Jesus Christ a liar.  He repeatedly told his apostles that they would be saved from the tribulation.  Also, why would God subject those who had faith in Jesus to what is explicitly caused by his wrath?

God would never harm a head on a Bible believing Christian - his wrath is Judicious and Righteous, not to be poured upon those who have faith in him.  

The rapture is obviously not going to occur until the last possible instant before the Tribulation, and it is written that no man, angel, or even Jesus Christ knows when it's going down.  Only God the Father knows.  

What we see going on today was prophesied in the Bible repeatedly.  Jesus warned of the birthpangs the Earth would suffer from the beast's coming.  As soon as Russia invades Israel, that's when the rapture hits, imo, but who knows? The only thing we know for certain is that the final generation is the one who saw Israel be reborn as a nation, which was in 1948 if I'm not mistaken.  A generation is approx 60-80 years and signs of the end are being fulfilled daily.  

earthquakes? check
rampant violence? check
men are morally empty, lovers of themselves and money? double check
 
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« Reply #577 on: October 09, 2009, 10:00:25 AM »

His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of (The Divine Loving Parentage) Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."

And He said, "The realm of The All Itself is like wise fishermen who cast their nets into the sea and draw it up full of small fish. Among them the wise fishermen find the fine large fish. They threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the larger fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."
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« Reply #578 on: October 09, 2009, 10:10:17 AM »

His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of (The Divine Loving Parentage) Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."

And He said, "The realm of The All Itself is like wise fishermen who cast their nets into the sea and draw it up full of small fish. Among them the wise fishermen find the fine large fish. They threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the larger fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

book, chapter and verse please.  Grin
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« Reply #579 on: October 09, 2009, 12:37:41 PM »

Re:
Quote
There's only tribulation period followed by the Messiah destroying all non believers, and then the remaining people having their bodies transformed into ''spirit form'' and are caught up into the air in a twinkling of an eyes moment.

Wrong. The armies that came against Jerusalem at Armageddon are destroyed, and the nations are judged according to their treatment of Christ's brethren the Remnant of Israel during the Tribulation. Billions will have died and gone to hell before that, and will remain there until the White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium (the second resurrection, or resurrection of the unrighteous dead). There will be plenty of unbelievers (in the home countries of the armies which attacked at Armageddon) who will live during the Millennial Reign (1000 years) on the earth, and the rebels will join with the Dragon at the end of the Millennium when he is loosed from the bottomless pit. Mortals will be having children on the earth, and in fact the Remnant of Israel who are "saved" will be among those who will help to repopulate the earth with mortal humans. The Bible specifically says that except those days be shortened, there shall no FLESH be saved. Reading through the relevant chapters of the OT prophets will give you a lot of details on the future of the Jewish people on the earth during the Tribulation and Millennial Reign. See Zepheniah 3, Zechariah 14 and related passages.

The nations of those that came against Israel and Christ at the Second Coming will have to meet the requirement that every male must come to Jerusalem once a year, or there will be no rain at home. You really need to crack the Book open and read it, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Christians at that time will already be immortal and sinless, having been transformed (at the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church) and taken to a marriage in Heaven. They will come to earth with Christ at the Second Coming (Revelation 19:11).

BTW... the battle of Gog and Magog that is described in Ezekiel 38 happens at the end of the Millennium, not at the Second Coming, although Russia can certainly be expected to play a part at Armageddon, and this may be the reason for the "grudge" that God apparently holds against them at the final battle (end of Millennium) when he "puts hooks in their jaws" and BRINGS THEM upon the mountains of Israel... after which they are consumed by fire from God out of Heaven. The saints will be encamped about Jerusalem in tents and unwalled villages at that time, which is a very different scenario from the hellish mess that precedes the Second Coming.
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« Reply #580 on: October 14, 2009, 12:40:11 PM »

Racing Toward Armageddon: The Three Great Religions and the Plot to End the World - An Excerpt


Jerusalem Calling

Michael J. Baigent
Religion Dispatches
Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:09 EDT
http://religiondispatches.org/archive/rdbook/1858/racing_toward_armageddon%3A_the_three_great_religions_and_the_plot_to_end_the_world%3A_an_excerpt/?page=entire

Finally, something Christians, Jews, and Muslims can agree on: Apocalypse. But as the theological end-time visions of the three Abrahamic faiths converge, it is not the wrath of heaven that threatens life on Earth, but all-too-human fundamentalism and fearmongering.

The race toward Armageddon is the stumbling toward self-destruction.

Armageddon! The great battle against the Antichrist; when the red mist of a vast firestorm is to descend from above to envelop all living creatures in its deceptive embrace, leaving the god of war to spit out the pips.

According to the tricky and treacherous text of the final book in the New Testament, the book of Revelation, when the end time of the world dawns, a scroll with seven seals will be opened. With each seal a new horror will be unleashed against humanity. First, a great dragon will appear; this is later identified with Satan. Next will emerge a monstrous beast ominously rearing its seven heads and ten horns. Finally, a servant of this beast will arrive on the stage, a "false prophet" (16:13) - the Antichrist - who will lead his international satanic army against the forces of God. All these satanic forces will be gathered together "at the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon" (16:16).

Abruptly, a white horse bearing a divine warrior will appear from heaven, a warrior described as "The Word of God" (19:13), whom many interpret to be Christ; he will lead the "armies of heaven" (19:14) in a vast and bloodthirsty battle that will erupt against a background of terrestrial plagues and earthquakes. The three satanic allies will be defeated: the beast and the false prophet will be thrown alive into burning sulfur; their followers will all be put to the sword by the heavenly rider. According to the book of Revelation, God will take no prisoners - except, strangely, for Satan, who will be quickly locked up in a bottomless pit. Then the calm following this mayhem will usher in a thousand years of peace.

But in a curious and unexplained twist, at the end of the thousand years of peace, Satan will be released from his prison for a short time. This act of apparent mercy will immediately lead to a second great war.

It does seem a very cruel trick for God to play upon the newly peaceful inhabitants of the world. God appears to be toying with Satan like a cat toys with a mouse, because this new satanic army will also be rapidly destroyed, permitting a shiny new Jerusalem to descend from the clouds - a new Jerusalem from which Jesus will rule forever over a world where death is no more.

Personally, I have always wondered why, if Jesus is destined to be victorious, he and God should put themselves to so much trouble first. It seems to me that by delaying the inevitable, they are actually colluding with the beast, the false prophet, and Satan. It is also pointless, and the collateral damage so extensive.

But it does not seem pointless to approximately 59 percent of Americans who, according to pollsters, say they believe in the coming battle of Armageddon. And this is in addition to the millions of fundamentalist Christians worldwide who hold the same belief. Indeed, fundamentalist preaching has been pushing this kind of material out for years, material that does not allow for any doubt in the literal interpretation of Revelation. John Hagee, a prominent Texas fundamentalist preacher and author, clearly has none: "Armageddon is an actual battle, and the Antichrist is a living, breathing person."

It is evident from statements such as these that fundamentalist preaching operates in the service of fear - fear of the big battle to come and fear of not belonging to the side of Jesus so as to benefit from the thousand years of peace.

Fear is all to these people, and every opportunity to spread it is taken. In January 2007 fundamentalist evangelist and former presidential contender Pat Robertson told his television audience that millions of people would die that year in a huge terrorist attack on the United States. He claimed that God had personally told him this but added, rather as an afterthought, "I'm not saying necessarily nuclear, the Lord didn't say nuclear." Which is, of course, reassuring.

Such an attitude is not so far away from that of the Islamic suicide bombers who are sure that upon their deaths they will go straight to paradise to enjoy the favors of seventy-two young girls, favors they have missed out on in life due to their restrictive beliefs.

This battle of Armageddon and the return of Christ is, according to thousands of Christian fundamentalist preachers, coming soon. In fact many are convinced that our modem military involvement in the Middle East is linked to this fiery end. In the book of Revelation, Babylon is the source of all evil and is ultimately overthrown; Babylon, of course, is in Iraq, which has presently fallen to U.S. forces and their allies. To Christian fundamentalists, the connection, and the importance, is obvious.

But the Christian fundamentalists are not the only ones to believe in a final battle. Muslims, too, with increasing urgency speak about the coming of their messiah, the Mahdi, who - with the aid of Jesus - will fight against the demonic forces of the Dajjal, the Islamic Antichrist figure. Especially important is the belief held by many Muslims that the Mahdi will rule from Jerusalem, which the Muslims claim as their own. Muslims who follow these beliefs expect the final battle to come very soon, and this is affecting their politics, which, in turn, is affecting all of our lives.

Jewish fundamentalists, by contrast, do not think of a battle to come, but it is hard to see how their end times can appear without one. For they hold that when the Messiah comes, he will rebuild the Temple, referring to Solomon's Temple, the very first temple, according to the Bible, to serve the ancient religion of the Israelites in Jerusalem, a temple that was pillaged and destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 B.C. And with the Messiah's coming, they hold that Jerusalem will be wholly Jewish. There will be no room on the Temple Mount for any Islamic structures, nor will there be room for the Islamic population within Jerusalem, indeed within all of Israel - which they define as stretching as far as western Iraq. They believe that the signs of the coming of the Messiah have already appeared; it will not be long now. The thousands of years of waiting are about to end. Of course, there are those who wish to hurry the time along and remove the mosques from the Temple Mount in advance of the Messiah's arrival. The anti-Islamic position of these groups is inflexible and runs very deeply. Their true relationship with Christianity is prickly and kept rather close, for they all depend upon the constant flow of funds donated to them by Christian supporters, but the tensions are there to see. For them, there is no need for compromise or tolerance; God gave Israel to the Jewish people, and that is all that needs to be said.

At its heart, fundamentalism is a relentless progression deeper and deeper into intolerance and ignorance, which, unless opposed, will by default achieve its aims. Judged and measured against their own pronouncements, we must conclude that the fundamentalist religions of all denominations are opposing the free will and vibrancy of human life - they are, paradoxically, performing the very task they attribute to the feared Antichrist: they are attempting to convert a distorted view of reality into such a skillfully packaged shape that it might be taken as truth.

Fundamentalist religions are humanity's greatest enemy. Blunt speaking, certainly, but time is short, and I see no reason not to call it as I see it. The fact we all have to face is that the fundamentalist religions leave no room for human frailty, for compassion, for forgiveness, or for creative freedom of thought. They are trying to return us to that time of darkness we thought was left far behind, where blind belief was considered more important than farsighted discovery, where the dogmatic was more valued than the tolerant and the false was more important than the true.

We simply cannot permit that future to occur; we must oppose that future with all the strength at our disposal. If, like those countless victims of the Nazi Holocaust, we are ever again asked to step into a cattle wagon for a trip to the Promised Land, we must remember that the correct response is always, emphatically, "No! Never again!"

But we need to move quickly for the fundamentalists are on the march; step by step they are encroaching upon the peaceful and tolerant high ground with their perverted idea of a heavenly realm filled with comfortable seats from which those who have been "saved" can eat their popcorn and watch the slaughter below. It all sounds like some deranged fantasy based on a dim memory of the Roman arena, for there is much blood in the message and so very little mercy.

Again Christian fundamentalist preacher John Hagee does not mince his words on this issue: The first time He came to Earth, Jesus was the Lamb of God, led in silence to the slaughter. The next time He comes, He will be the Lion of Judah who will trample His enemies until their blood stains His garments. It seems difficult to avoid the conclusion that, like those who once packed the Roman Colosseum to watch Christians or Jews thrown to the wild animals, Hagee cannot wait to take his seat before the carnage.

Hagee's position closely resembles that of Islamic fundamentalist commentators for whom, of course, Jesus is an Islamic prophet. The Egyptian Sa'id Ayyub, writing in 1987, insisted that in the final days, "all of the books will be burnt at the end of the road. Those who sucked at deceit, spying, and hypocrisy will be burnt beneath the feet of the prophet of God, Jesus, and the army of Islam - [Jews and Christians]... will be trampled under after the dawn." We have good cause to be deeply worried about these people and those who read and believe their words. We must never let them near to the seats of power, else we will wake up one morning in a world where madness is called sanity and true sanity is viewed as a heresy to be ruthlessly destroyed. But, ominously, we can see this world creeping closer and closer.

The apocalyptic view of Middle East events held by recent US administrations, most evidently with President George W. Bush, really began with President Ronald Reagan in the early 1980s. Famously, in 1981, Ronald Reagan revealed that he believed, "For the first time ever, everything is in place for the battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ." He later echoed this belief, stating, "I turn back to the ancient prophets in the Old Testament and the signs foretelling Armageddon, and I find myself wondering if - if we're the generation that is going to see that come about."

Two decades later, President Bush contented himself with advice from God. In 2003 He explained to the Palestinian prime minister, "God told me to strike at al-Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam."

He seems to speak like Moses or Joshua; perhaps he really did believe that he was leading us to the Promised Land.

The above is an excerpt from the book Racing Toward Armageddon: The Three Great Religions and the Plot to End the World by Michael Baigent. The above excerpt is a digitally scanned reproduction of text from print. Although this excerpt has been proofread, occasional errors may appear due to the scanning process. Please refer to the finished book for accuracy.

Comment: The reader is advised to read Laura Knight-Jadczyk's comprehensive editorial: The Most Dangerous Cult in The World! http://www.sott.net/articles/show/127860-The-Most-Dangerous-Cult-in-The-World-
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« Reply #581 on: October 14, 2009, 12:48:44 PM »

 Gee thanks!!! Tongue
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« Reply #582 on: October 14, 2009, 04:18:28 PM »

To return to the original topic, it absolutely does not make sense to fake the rapture and spend ENORMOUS resources and potential reveal that they are capable of such feats, etc. All they have to do is to incrementally add drops of tyranny to the pot and somewhere around 2020 to 2030 we will be so used to the technocratic form of government that it will be second nature to us.

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« Reply #583 on: October 14, 2009, 08:48:37 PM »

Re: Racing Toward Armageddon


One thing is certain: World War III will be choreographed by the Illuminati.

Quoting:
The Illuminati refers to a tightly organized network of family dynasties representing Anglo American and European aristocracy and Jewish finance joined by intermarriage, belief in the occult, and hatred of Christianity. Freemasonry is their instrument. They care nothing for their non-Illuminati brethren, Jewish or not. They will destroy billions as they create a neo feudal world characterized by the superrich, their support staff, soldiers and serfs.

"TAKING SIDES"

The Iraq war and a possible larger conflagration is a trap engineered by the Illuminati to destroy both the Moslem world and Israel, and possibly the U.S. Thus the real enemy is not Israel, America or Islam who are being manipulated. The real enemy is the Illuminati and their agents, bent on destroying and enslaving mankind.

For example, World War Two was choreographed. Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill and Hitler were all Illuminati. They were actually all on the same side. Humanity ignorantly slaughtering itself for no reason was on the other side.

As Pike's letter indicates, the Nazis were intended to lose and the Communists to gain control of Eastern Europe. This is why the Nazis made so many stupid blunders on the Eastern Front and deliberately alienated the anti-Communist Russian people. It explains why they didn't invade prostrate England or make the critical oil fields of Russia and the Middle East their first priority.

Similarly today, George Bush, John Kerry, Tony Blair, Ariel Sharon, Gerhard Schroeder are all Freemasons. Bush and Kerry belong to the same "Skull and Bones" chapter! I am guessing but I expect Vladimir Putin and some significant Iranian leaders are also tied to the Illuminati. They may not be aware of the big picture but if they deviate, they will be assassinated like the Israeli PM, Yitzhak Rabin, who was also a Freemason.

Sadaam Hussein is believed to be a high-ranking Freemason with longstanding business ties to George H.W. Bush and the CIA. This would explain why George H.W. Bush didn't remove him in 1991; and why reports suggest he was secretly airlifted out of the country in the first days of the 2003 war.

The current Iraq war was planned years in advance to discredit the U.S., mire it in a Vietnam-style war and set it and Israel up for confrontation with a nuclear-armed Iran, backed by Russia and possibly China.

Osama Bin Laden is probably also Illuminati. See "Bush, Bin Laden Serve the Same Master" and "Osama bin London"

The whole Iranian Islamic Republic was put in place by the Illuminati. See Peter Goodgame's comprehensive report: "The Globalists and the Islamists."

Thus while the majority of people on both sides believe in their cause, and fight and die for it, history suggests war is always a hoax aimed at slaughtering the "innocents" and establishing the power of the Illuminati in a one-world government.

"Out of these troubled times, our objective: a new world order can emerge," President George H. W. Bush told the U.N. on September 11th 1990. "Today, that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we have known."

"If the people were to ever find out what we have done," the same Bush told reporter Sarah McClendon in 1992, "we would be chased down the streets and lynched."

We cannot understand the world until we appreciate that most leaders are traitors and that mankind is victim of a diabolical conspiracy on an unspeakable scale. It's time we stopped fighting each other and addressed the real enemy.
--------------

Baigent's analysis is cleverly written... nice job of turning "fundamentalist" into a bad word, and linking all Christians to a bunch of NWO hacks like Hagee, Robertson and Bush. The so-called "christians" paraded on the idiot box for purposes of brainwashing the public and destroying fundamental Christianity are agents of the Illuminati. The goal is to discredit Christianity and close the minds of humanity to the Gospel. It dovetails perfectly with the NWO plan as outlined:

"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
 
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
 
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economic exhaustion. We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
 
Since the terrorist attacks of Sept 11, 2001, world events, and in particular in the Middle East, show a growing unrest and instability between Modern Zionism and the Arabic World. This is completely in line with the call for a Third World War to be fought between the two, and their allies on both sides. This Third World War is still to come, and recent events show us that it is not far off.


"Agentur" means "agent." The same term is used in another Illuminati document "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which dates from the same period.

The key point here is these wars are contrived. They are "caused by agentur of the Illuminati" on both sides. These agents owe their first loyalty to the Illuminati not to their countries.

Their aim is to destroy their respective countries and profit from the carnage.
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« Reply #584 on: October 14, 2009, 08:58:07 PM »

I agree. Just a game on Illuminati chessboard.
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« Reply #585 on: October 14, 2009, 09:39:02 PM »

I agree. Just a game on Illuminati chessboard.

Ditto - sadly, most of the masses still buy into this good guy vs. bad guy mentality, and think Iran et al are major threats to this world. I mean didn't we LEARN our LESSON from Iraq?
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« Reply #586 on: October 14, 2009, 10:06:18 PM »

Ditto - sadly, most of the masses still buy into this good guy vs. bad guy mentality, and think Iran et al are major threats to this world. I mean didn't we LEARN our LESSON from Iraq?

You know...people in general (not just in US) are...stupid. Short memory+mind control MSM= stupid sheep.



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Resist. Rebel. Cry out to all peoples and nations from the sky as the lightening flashes from the east to the west and judge the living and the dead.Or choose submission and slavery.

The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.  (John 1:5)
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« Reply #587 on: October 16, 2009, 06:37:27 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulhgllP5leg

The Truth About The Rapture of the Church: Are you Drac food?
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« Reply #588 on: October 16, 2009, 10:21:17 AM »

Rabid? Jews lobby to remove Al-Aqsa Mosque to Mecca!



Press TV
Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:30 EDT
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=108747&sectionid=351020202



Extremist Jewish organizations in Israel have demanded that the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock from East Jerusalem Al-Quds be transferred to Mecca.

Gershon Salomon is seeking the removal of the mosques from East Jerusalem Al-Quds, which Israel occupied during the 1967 aggression and illegally annexed it later despite international opposition, Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth reported on Wednesday.

The founder and leader of the ultra-Orthodox Temple Mount and Eretz Yisrael Faithful Movement plans to have Israeli engineers transfer the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock to the Muslims' holy city of Mecca, the daily added.

The Israeli paper also quoted ultra-right Yehuda Etzion, who is associated with Israeli spy agencies, as saying that blowing up of the Muslim sanctities would become 'inevitable' to if Tel Aviv fails to dissemble and transfer the edifices.

Etzion was jailed for five years in the 1980s for a plot to explode the mosques on the Noble Sanctuary (Haram al-Sharif), and has vowed he would do the same again.

The Al-Aqsa Mosque has been attacked by extremist Jews over the past week while the mosque compound was sealed off to Muslim worshippers.

Israel also deployed thousands of troops in the area to quell demonstrations by Palestinians protesters who accused Tel Aviv of efforts to take away the Islamic-Palestinian identity of the Muslims' third holy site.

Jordan, who enjoys the right to look after all Islamic and Christian holy sites in East Jerusalem Al-Quds under a 1994 peace treaty, demanded last week that Israel keep Jewish extremists away from the compound and keep the Mugrabi Gate closed.


Comment: They need to rebuild Solomons Temple for crownation of their Messiah (Antichrist)
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Resist. Rebel. Cry out to all peoples and nations from the sky as the lightening flashes from the east to the west and judge the living and the dead.Or choose submission and slavery.

The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.  (John 1:5)
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« Reply #589 on: October 16, 2009, 11:52:04 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulhgllP5leg

The Truth About The Rapture of the Church: Are you Drac food?

This video showed Chuck Norris as a reptillian - is this true??
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« Reply #590 on: October 16, 2009, 11:55:59 AM »

This video showed Chuck Norris as a reptillian - is this true??

You believe in Chuck Norris?
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« Reply #591 on: October 16, 2009, 03:19:37 PM »

I don't know how the whole temple mount situation will play out, but it's bound to be, uh, interesting, seeing the area is so tense.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalm 122:6 (KJV)
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« Reply #592 on: October 16, 2009, 04:58:06 PM »

I don't know how the whole temple mount situation will play out, but it's bound to be, uh, interesting, seeing the area is so tense.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalm 122:6 (KJV)

Just to throw this out there too - I feel sorry for those that are donating a good bit of their money to their 501c3 churches, as well as John Haguee's and Joel Rosenberg's "ministries" - little do they know that who knows how much of it is going to help build that THIRD TEMPLE for the Devil himself to occupy in.

When Jesus comes back, and the New Jeruselum is set up after his 1000 year mil reign, the new temple will not be some building made with hands.
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« Reply #593 on: October 25, 2009, 06:56:10 PM »

TEMPLE AT THE Center of Time
 by David Flynn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uygmWhtUYM4

Could look like this

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eth8H3dRiNBcBqjjIlbSIQ?feat=directlink
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« Reply #594 on: March 10, 2010, 07:52:51 PM »

Quote
When Jesus comes back, and the New Jeruselum is set up after his 1000 year mil reign, the new temple will not be some building made with hands.

True. It will be inside a city built by God which is "four square"... a cube 12,000 furlongs or 1500 miles on each dimension. See Revelation 21:16.

The New Jerusalem is 12,000 "furlongs" on each side. There are eight furlongs to a mile, so the city is 1,500 miles long, wide, and high. That works out to 40,144,896,000 square feet. If you were to lay it down on North America, it would stretch from Miami, Florida to Montreal, Canada and from Washington, D.C:, to Denver, Colorado. You could put all six billion people living on earth today in that area and give them each an acre of land with a ranch-style house, a yard, a garden, and a pond. But if you add the height to the calculations, you get a total volume of 500 quintillion cubic feet in the city (a quintillion is 1 with 18 zeros behind It). Even if you allowed for eight billion Christians living in the city (that's four million a year for 2, 000 years, which is a very liberal estimation), you could give each one of them a house of 100,000 cubic feet (the average home has 10,000 cubic feet, so if that's not a mansion, I don't know what is) and still have nearly 50 quintillion cubic feet left for parks, lakes, plazas, the Throne of God, the River of Life, and a large forest of the Tree of Life. You have to admit, that's some city!


Rev. 21:
24   And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

(21:24) Verses 24-26 deal with the Gentile nations in Eternity. These "nations" are made up of saved Gentiles from the Tribulation (see note on Matt. 25:32) and the Millennium (Rev. 20:9). They are divided into twelve nations, probably four from each of Noah's three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Deut. 32:8). Each nation is assigned one of the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem (Isa. 26:2; Psa. 24:7). Because these nations are saved by faith and works (and not by faith only), they have to get their eternal life from the Tree of Life (Rev. 22:14). That is not the case of the Christian, who gets his eternal life from a "tree of death" (Eph. 2:16).

But the eternal life that these Gentiles get from the Tree of Life is different from that of the Christian. Christians don't bear children in Eternity (Matt. 22:30); these Gentiles do (Isa. 9:7; Psa. 103:17). When these children reach a certain age (probably 33 1/2 years old- see 1 John 3:2), they enter into the city on the month each of them was born (Isa. 66:22-23) through the gate assigned to the nation to which each of them belongs. They then eat from the Tree of Life the specific fruit that grows on it for their nation (Rev. 22:3).

As these "nations" grow in number and become too many for the earth to sustain, God transports them to one of the twelve "houses" of the Zodiac to populate outer space See Deut. 4:19:And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.


 
(22:9) "The angel" of verse 8 doesn't identify himself by name; he simply calls himself a "fellowservant" to John and a brother to "the prophets." This leads us to believe that he was once a man whom "the resurrection" has made "as the angels of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30). A good guess would be that it is the prophet Daniel (vs. 10 cf. Dan. 12:9, 13).
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« Reply #595 on: March 11, 2010, 01:18:35 PM »

Via Webster's 1828 Dictionary...

Quote
http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,rapture

rapture
RAP'TURE, n. [L. raptus, rapio.]


1. A seizing by violence. [Little used.]

2. Transport; ecstasy; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure.

Music when thus applied, raises in the mind of the hearer great conceptions; it strengthens devotion and advances praise into rapture.

3. Rapidity with violence; a hurrying along with velocity; as rolling with torrent rapture.

4. Enthusiasm; uncommon heat of imagination.

You grow correct, that once with rapture writ.
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« Reply #596 on: March 11, 2010, 06:09:53 PM »

The usage of the word in the Scripture defines its meaning, consistent with the primary meaning (#1) of the 4 possibilities listed. The Greek word and its equivalent Latin word (as used in the Old Latin translated from the original Greek before 170 A.D.) both mean the same thing (duh!). The original Greek word in the Scripture "harpazo", means "to snatch away suddenly".

Our word "rapture" comes from the first translation of the Greek manuscripts into Latin (before 170 A.D.), where "harpazo" was translated "raptus". Both mean the same thing, and are not synchronous with the Second Coming. Raptus is the Latin for "seized", from rapere "to seize". The word "rapture" is from the Latin Word "rapio or rapturo" which means a "snatching away or to be caught up and taken away quickly." So, although the primary meaning in Webster's 1828 Dictionary (#1) is little used in common parlance today except among Christians who know their Bibles, it is the correct definition in the context of the Bible usage of the word. Since we're discussing a Bible doctrine, it is wise to stick with the Bible's own definition of the word, as used in context.  The derogatory statement "You grow correct, that once with rapture writ" has nothing to do with the Bible. It is simply an example of how to use the #4 alternative definition of the word , not a true representation of its usage in Scripture.
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Romans 10:9-10 King James Version


« Reply #597 on: March 11, 2010, 09:07:55 PM »

The usage of the word in the Scripture defines its meaning, consistent with the primary meaning (#1) of the 4 possibilities listed. The Greek word and its equivalent Latin word (as used in the Old Latin translated from the original Greek before 170 A.D.) both mean the same thing (duh!). The original Greek word in the Scripture "harpazo", means "to snatch away suddenly".

Our word "rapture" comes from the first translation of the Greek manuscripts into Latin (before 170 A.D.), where "harpazo" was translated "raptus". Both mean the same thing, and are not synchronous with the Second Coming. Raptus is the Latin for "seized", from rapere "to seize". The word "rapture" is from the Latin Word "rapio or rapturo" which means a "snatching away or to be caught up and taken away quickly." So, although the primary meaning in Webster's 1828 Dictionary (#1) is little used in common parlance today except among Christians who know their Bibles, it is the correct definition in the context of the Bible usage of the word. Since we're discussing a Bible doctrine, it is wise to stick with the Bible's own definition of the word, as used in context.  The derogatory statement "You grow correct, that once with rapture writ" has nothing to do with the Bible. It is simply an example of how to use the #4 alternative definition of the word , not a true representation of its usage in Scripture.

You really think God will wisk the church away before the fan hits the ceiling? Where does it say that in Scripture? So I guess we have liberty to sit around and wait for it, while ignoring our other priorities? Why not go out and take a loan on a Rolls Royce while we're at it?
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« Reply #598 on: March 12, 2010, 07:40:02 AM »

You really think God will wisk the church away before the fan hits the ceiling? Where does it say that in Scripture? So I guess we have liberty to sit around and wait for it, while ignoring our other priorities? Why not go out and take a loan on a Rolls Royce while we're at it?

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



 Grin
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« Reply #599 on: March 12, 2010, 10:12:42 AM »

Quote
You really think God will wisk the church away before the fan hits the ceiling? Where does it say that in Scripture? So I guess we have liberty to sit around and wait for it, while ignoring our other priorities? Why not go out and take a loan on a Rolls Royce while we're at it?

I fail to perceive where "wisks" and "ceiling fans" have anything to do with the first principles of sound doctrine that every Christian has the responsibility to learn as a prerequisite for growing beyond being a carnal baby Christian. What is your excuse for not learning doctrine? Granted, there are few churches around that teach it any more, but ample information has been repeatedly posted right here on this forum and you can check any real Bible to see whether these things be so.

Quote
So I guess we have liberty to sit around and wait for it, while ignoring our other priorities?

Are you accusing me of something, or merely demonstrating your acerbic wit and flawless logic? Failed on both counts.

1 Timothy 4:
16   Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.



Quote
Why not go out and take a loan on a Rolls Royce while we're at it?

No thanks... YOU take the Rolls, and I'll keep my truck. Even if I was carnal and egomaniacal enough to go for such an ostentatious look, I'm too Scottish to spend that much money on a niggered-up er... glorified Chrysler 300C.   Grin


a·cer·bic
   /əˈsɜrbɪk/  [uh-sur-bik]
–adjective
1.
sour or astringent in taste: Lemon juice is acerbic.
2.
harsh or severe, as of temper or expression: acerbic criticism.
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