OMG!! Final Obama Born In Kenya Proof?

[Nailer]

Document

Kerchner v Obama Appeal - Order Granting Leave to File Over Length Brief - 2010-02-22

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27308595/Kerchner-v-Obama-Appeal-Order-Granting-Leave-to-File-Over-Length-Brief-2010-02-22

[lord edward coke]

I wonder if this ''lawsuite'' is set-up to fail.

I do not see the DNC included in the defendants lists. The congress will point at the DNC and state-

''Tis the DNC's mandate to qualify the democratic candidate'' ect.  

The judge will have his excuse to rule in chairman obamas favour.

The talking heads will have their dumbed down spin, for the sheep.

The newsprint will have the headline- ''Judge rules obama a citzen''  

[Kilika]

I'm thinking they can't afford to have this fall apart on them. If Obama is found to not be a citizen, this country could very well implode. We'll learn the truth soon enough.

[Volitzar]

America is doomed to implode soon anyhow.   Obama may just be another catalyst.

[Nailer]

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd409.htm



Obama Birth issue. 2 variations of COLB, Recorded and accepted , read the article and see what the difference is.



The issue of what kind of birth certificate constitutes proof of citizenship is the most asked question in my mail box. Philip J. Berg's Assistant, Lisa, has done the research and provides us with this clarification:
"Once you are born, the hospital transmits the information to the Health Department, a birth certificate is created; If you are born abroad, you must take the original foreign birth certificate to Department of Health in the State which your birth is being registered, the original foreign birth certificate is placed and stored and the State Department of Health and a Certification of Live Birth is created. If you are born at home, then you must register that birth with the medical records (even births at home, a doctor must check the woman and child, then a birth certificate is issued by the doctor, the mother must register the doctors birth certificate of the child with the Department of Health).

"I spoke with the Director of Records in Hawaii, he explained to both (name withheld for privacy) and myself (we were on a three way) the above procedures. So yes, everyone in the United States and other countries (unless you were born in a field and never sought medical care) has a vault version of a birth certificate.

"On another note, in 1961 the Hawaii birth certificates are black and type written, this is true. In 2001, the Hawaii Department of Health changed formats and now offer a short version and a long version. The short version, if the birth occurred in a Hospital in Hawaii is called a "Certificate of Live Birth" not a Certification of Live Birth (COLB that Obama is using, fake or not) so there are differences in the wording of the document which folks are not aware of, unless they asked. A Certification of Live birth is nothing more than stating, not proving you were born, it does not prove your citizenship status or anything else.

"Now, the Certification of Live Birth is issued for foreign births abroad, which are registered in the Hawaii Department of Health. But there is more: On the bottom left of a Certificate of live birth is the words "recorded" which is the date the hospital transmitted the information for the production of the birth certificate or the Certificate of Live Birth.

"However, on the bottom left of a Certification of Live Birth, again for births abroad, it states on the bottom left corner "accepted", as Obama's COLB, fake or not, does. The wording "accepted" means that is the date the Department of Health in Hawaii accepted the registration and the documentation. Dunham could not have registered Obama's birth in Hawaii without the original "vault" version of the foreign birth certificate, nor could she have gotten Obama out of Kenya."
Another effort is underway to get to the truth:

[jofortruth]

Audio of the lawyer talking about this case:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/mommaeradiorebels/2009/01/24/momma-e-and-the-radio-rebels
http://www.therightsideoflife.com/2009/01/22/kerchner-v-obama-complaint-petition-filed-in-nj-federal-district-court/

[jofortruth]

Attorney Apuzzo appeals Obama citizenship case to Federal 3rd Circuit
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-7715-Portland-Civil-Rights-Examiner~y2009m10d27-Attorney-Apuzzo-appeals-Obama-Citizenship-case-to-Federal-3rd-Circuit

[egypt]

I am so with Alex.

To allow this precedent to be set with regard to 1. Trashing the Constitution  2. Allowing a President who is not qualified to remain...   This spells disaster.

It is not about "Obama" being president, or not.  Like Biden or Pelosi is better?  No.

It is about The Consitution and that there are *reasons* for what the document states.  It isn't like our Founding Fathers just *made up* guidelines, rules and regulations.  Each one has its purpose.  Our Founding Fathers knew what we were up against and gave us the tools to fight it in the form of The Constitution.  To win the fight with NWO, we must uphold every aspect of this greatest document ever written.

[jofortruth]

Look at this list of lawsuits against him:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/docket/

[lord edward coke]

Look at this list of lawsuits against him:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/docket/

WOW!!!        GREAT FIND!!!

"Of course, there is no place in the Constitution that authorizes the Constitutional president to promote healthcare by federal law." On this we agree. "No government is ever in favor of freedom of the individual. It invariably seeks to limit that freedom, if not by overt denial, then by seeking to constantly widen its own functions... All governments, of course, are against liberty..." --H.L. Mencken.

"But, he is not the constitutional president and refuses, adamantly, to show the necessary documents that would verify his status as such." This is the very fraud that I speaking of. If these documents give him some power over the public that is not clearly spelled out in the Constitution, it is invalid. "As usurpation is the exercise of power which another hath a right to, so Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right, which no body can have a right to." -John Locke

"Of course, the people are raising the issue about the socialist unconsitutional nature of federal health care, but that is not stopping ob from pursuing it. I meant the complicit congress and the co-opted press will not raise the question in any meaningful, constitutional way." Tyranny is not easy to put into line, and it refuses to govern itself! "The defining characteristic of a tyrant is a belief that a power not expressly denied is granted by implication; that a right not expressly reserved is surrendered by implication" -George Mason.

"Of course ob is committing fraud by allowing people to think he is either occupying the oval office constitutionally or even unconstitutionally. He is the president of a company with a constitution-sounding name, an idem sonens if you will, of the constitutional land mass k/a the united States of America. He is not occupying that office unlawfully as the corporation has no natural born citizen requirement. The fraud is hiding the fact of the corporation while allowing people to believe he is the consitutional president." In this case, I think we agree, than, this is a criminal enterprise. "The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press."-- Thomas Jefferson.


Quote

"He took an oath under the Constitution. It doesn't matter if it is listed in the Jupiter Times."

Did he take an oath under the constitution?
Either he did, or he has no legal or lawful power as President. "There is no such thing as the idea of a compact between the people on one side, and the government on the other. The compact (U.S. Constitution) was that of the people with each other, to produce and constitute a government. To suppose that any government can be a party in a compact with the whole people, is to suppose it to have existence before it can have a right to exist." --Paine.

"He took two oaths, one public one semi private and not televised." What is your support for this view? Where does the Constitution provide for this second Oath?

"But were either of them relevant." Only the Oath under the Constitution is relevant. Any other Oath is fraudulent. How can one serve two masters?

"The constitution is not effective against a board of directors of a company and the ceo with whom they contract." I disagree, what we are talking about is fraud and tyranny! The Constitution is in place to deal with just these sort of issues as they relate to government. "The government was set to protect man from criminals -- and the Constitution was written to protect man from the government. The Bill of Rights was not directed against private citizens, but against the government -- as an explicit declaration that individual rights supersede any public or social power."-- Ayn Rand.

"If the oath was only for show, to keep the corporation secret from the public, then that is further fraud." We are in agreement, thus, the entire proposition has no foundation, for the law cannot be based upon fraud and lies. "History is clear that the first ten amendments to the Constitution were adopted to secure certain common law rights of the people, against invasion by the Federal Government."-- Bell v. Hood, 71 F. Supp., 813, 816 (1947).

[lord edward coke]

Saturday, July 4, 2009
On this our comarde Obama's Day

It doth seem fitting as the saulish Obama and the ever growing wife of porcine appetites visit their good friends in the Kremlin animal farm, that a little known application for all to visit, copy, send and read is posted by the British Government as follows:

You became a British subject on 1 January 1983 if, up to that date, you were:

    * a British subject without citizenship, which means you were a British subject on 31 December 1948 who did not become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, a citizen of a Commonwealth country, a citizen of Pakistan, or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland;
    * a person who had been a citizen of Eire and a British subject on 31 December 1948 and had made a claim to remain a British subject; or
    * a woman who had registered as a British subject on the basis of your marriage to a man who was in one of the two categories above.


Be it known, Barack Hussein Obama was born of a British colonial African of Kenya in Barack Hussein Obama Sr.
Be it known, Stanley Ann Dunham, being under legal agent of consent was impregnated and married, making her by matrimony a British subject.

Barack Obama was a British subject by birth, but without even requesting or assenting on January 1, 1983 at the age of 21 became a British citizen by act of the British government as he had never applied for citizenship to any United Kingdom, colony, was a citizen of Pakisan where he visited or the Republic of Ireland.
Barack Obama was never a Irish citizen or a previous subject or a woman married to a British subject.


Since 1 January 1983, a person who gains citizenship of any other country can no longer be a British subject. However, this does not apply to a citizen of the Republic of Ireland who has made a claim to remain a British subject as explained above.

Be it known, Barack Obama never gained citizenship of any other country after January 1, 1983.
Barack Obama never applied for citizenship of the United States of America as was required under United States law. It does not matter one iota that Barack Obama has any Hawaiian birth certificate of live birth. It does not matter if there is evidence of his being Barry Soetero, Indonesian dual citizen. None of the documents matter, because under British Authority Mandate, on January 1, 1983 at the age of 21 years, 4 months, 27 days, Barack Hussein Obama became a legal British subject.

This event which even his website has attempted to explain away as his inaction simply allowed his being a British subject to "expire" has absolutely no legal standing in Great Britain nor the United States. British citizenship does not expire.
It can be renounced or a new citizenship can be taken up negating it, but Barack Obama was never naturalized by the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the United States. He never applied, he never attended classes, nor took the manditory examination nor took the oath to be a Citizen of the United States of America.

In not doing so, Barack Hussein Obama has been a sojourner in the United States of America and has illegally been an Illinois State Senator, United States Senator and is illegally the occupant of the White House executive branch of government as a foreigner disqualified from serving in Illinois and in the District of Columbia as he is British.

Barack Obama is vir artus, the man in limbo, the man without a country, an illegal alien in America and not yet having British official citizenship papers.

There is no denying Barack Obama's birth parents and no denying the British Nationality Act of 1948, 1965 and 1983 which forever fused him by his birth, no matter where he was born as a British subject.
Vladamir Putin has as much right to be in the Oval Office of the President of the United States as Barack Hussein Obama.

The people of Honduras in facing the Constinutional crisis of a criminal Marxist, had a Supreme Court uphold their Constitution, a military enforce their Constitution in removing of a criminal, with the Honduran Congress replacing the criminal executive.
The people of the United States have had nothing but enablers in a corrupt Attorney General in Eric Holder circumventing the law, a Supreme and Judicial Court system not uphold Constitutional Law and a Congress which negated to fulfill as did all 50 states in requiring Constitutional proof that Barack Hussein Obama was a Citizen of the United States.

Barack Obama is vir artus, the man in limbo, and until the Constitutional Laws of the United States are upheld, every act he initiates is criminal fraud and not legally binding, which includes Treasury bond issue, currency signed illegally by Timothy Geithner to orders in placing United States troops in Afghanistan.

Those are the legal facts in any attorney in England could gain full citizenship for subject Obama at any time, and, within that time, it appears he then could be Prime Minister of Great Britain replacing Gordon Brown.

The Truth will prevail and the Truth will be victorious Saul II.

agtG 293

http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2009/07/on-this-our-comarde-obamas-day.html

The First Time I heard of Barack
 November 11, 2008 — One evening, during a trip to Moscow early in 1992, as the evening wore on, the wife of my host said, "What if I told you that you will have a black president very soon and he will be a Communist? . . . This is not some idle talk. He is already born and he is educated and being groomed to be president right now. You will be impressed to know that he has gone to the best schools of Presidents. He is what you call "Ivy League." You don't believe me, but he is real and I even know his name. His name is Barack. His mother is white and American and his father is black from Africa. That's right, a chocolate baby! And he's going to be your President."

"It's all been thought out. His father is not an American black so he won't have that social slave stigma. He is intelligent and he is half white and has been raised from the cradle to be an atheist and a Communist. He's gone to the finest schools. He is being guided every step of the way and he will be irresistible to America." She rattled off a complete litany. He was from Hawaii. He went to school in California. He lived in Chicago. He was soon to be elected to the legislature. "Have no doubt: he is one of us, a Soviet." America would have to be converted to Communism and Barack was going to pave the way. Full story: rense.com

Comment: As a student at Columbia University, Obama was recruited over 25 years ago by Zbigniew Brzezinski to be groomed as the president to succeed George W. Bush in 2008.


http://www.mail-archive.com/richsrants@googlegroups.com/msg02051.html
Deadline: Dec 31 To Expose Barack Hussein Obama

[menace]

Ed Hale says he has in his possession now: “… the real long form BC of Obama from Hawaii. … BHO is NOT A AMERICAN CITIZEN,” which he says he bought from a retired Hawaii civil servant. He said on his radio show that the President’s original birth certificate from Hawaii, which he now has and has had “carbon-dated,” shows the birthplace of Mombasa, Kenya.

The reason I am not going to open this forum or chat room up is that I will be out $36,000.00. That is what I agreed to do. I will pay $35,000 total to the people who are involuded. That money was put in a excrow account in a bank and it take both my signature and their signature on the check to get the money. Then they sent me the document for testing. That is why if it is real I am going to charge $100.00 per password to people to get in to view the document.

And the cost is up to $36,000 from $25,000 when he first posted his announcement on Wednesday.

As far as I know, he is still hoping to draw in a cool fifty thousand on this little gambit, because: “If it is not worth $100.00 to you to save your country, then you need to go to another country.”

Love it or leave it.

http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/


Plains Radio Network's forum

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3764075825&frmid=6712&msgid=1113628&cmd=show

[lord edward coke]

Ed Hale says he has in his possession now: “… the real long form BC of Obama from Hawaii. … BHO is NOT A AMERICAN CITIZEN,” which he says he bought from a retired Hawaii civil servant. He said on his radio show that the President’s original birth certificate from Hawaii, which he now has and has had “carbon-dated,” shows the birthplace of Mombasa, Kenya.

The reason I am not going to open this forum or chat room up is that I will be out $36,000.00. That is what I agreed to do. I will pay $35,000 total to the people who are involuded. That money was put in a excrow account in a bank and it take both my signature and their signature on the check to get the money. Then they sent me the document for testing. That is why if it is real I am going to charge $100.00 per password to people to get in to view the document.

And the cost is up to $36,000 from $25,000 when he first posted his announcement on Wednesday.

As far as I know, he is still hoping to draw in a cool fifty thousand on this little gambit, because: “If it is not worth $100.00 to you to save your country, then you need to go to another country.”

Love it or leave it.

http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/


Plains Radio Network's forum

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3764075825&frmid=6712&msgid=1113628&cmd=show

Sooooooooooooo,    He has the certified birth certificate from Hawaii???  How would Hawaii issue a certificate
if he was born in another country; Mombasa, Kenya?

[Georgiacopguy]

How patriotic, self serving, and potentially fraudulent.

Ed Hale says he has in his possession now: “… the real long form BC of Obama from Hawaii. … BHO is NOT A AMERICAN CITIZEN,” which he says he bought from a retired Hawaii civil servant. He said on his radio show that the President’s original birth certificate from Hawaii, which he now has and has had “carbon-dated,” shows the birthplace of Mombasa, Kenya.

The reason I am not going to open this forum or chat room up is that I will be out $36,000.00. That is what I agreed to do. I will pay $35,000 total to the people who are involuded. That money was put in a excrow account in a bank and it take both my signature and their signature on the check to get the money. Then they sent me the document for testing. That is why if it is real I am going to charge $100.00 per password to people to get in to view the document.

And the cost is up to $36,000 from $25,000 when he first posted his announcement on Wednesday.

As far as I know, he is still hoping to draw in a cool fifty thousand on this little gambit, because: “If it is not worth $100.00 to you to save your country, then you need to go to another country.”

Love it or leave it.

http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/


Plains Radio Network's forum

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3764075825&frmid=6712&msgid=1113628&cmd=show

[menace]

How patriotic, self serving, and potentially fraudulent.

Looks like he says that he well release this orginal long form BC of Obama on March 31, 2010. so well see.

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3764075825&frmid=6712&msgid=1113841&cmd=show

[Georgiacopguy]

Looks like he says that he well release this orginal long form BC of Obama on March 31, 2010. so well see.

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3764075825&frmid=6712&msgid=1113841&cmd=show

IF you pay him his demanded $100... Oh yeah, he's a real patriot that one...

[lord edward coke]

BORN IN THE USA?

Court told 'citizen' Obama actually may be alien
'Under British Nationality Act … he was a British subject'

Posted: March 25, 2010
12:00 am Eastern


By Bob Unruh
© 2010 WorldNetDaily


Forget the dispute over the "natural born citizen" requirement of the U.S. Constitution for presidents, Barack Obama may not even be a "citizen," according to a new filing in a long-running legal challenge to his eligibility to occupy the Oval Office.

"Under the British Nationality Act of 1948 his father was a British subject/citizen and not a United States citizen and Obama himself was a British subject/citizen at the time Obama was born," says a new filing in the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals in the case Kerchner v. Obama.

"We further contend that Obama has failed to even conclusively prove that he is at least a 'citizen of the United States' under the Fourteenth Amendment as he claims by conclusively proving that he was born in Hawaii."

The submission comes from attorney Mario Apuzzo, who is handling the case. His brief argues against the earlier document from Obama's attorneys demanding that the case be dismissed.

WND reported when the lawyer argued that the most common reason judges have used to dismiss cases against Obama – a lack of "standing" – is just wrong.

Obama's argument for dismissal relies almost exclusively on standing.

See the movie Obama does not want you to see: Own the DVD that probes this unprecedented presidential eligibility mystery!

"How can you deny he's affecting me?" Apuzzo said recently during an interview with WND. "He wants to have terror trials in New York. He published the CIA interrogation techniques. On and on. He goes around bowing and doing all these different things. His statements we're not a Christian nation; we're one of the largest Muslim nations. It's all there."

The case was brought by Apuzzo in January 2009 on behalf of Charles F. Kerchner Jr., Lowell T. Patterson, Darrell James Lenormand and Donald H. Nelson Jr.

Named as defendants are Barack Hussein Obama II, the U.S., Congress, the Senate, House of Representatives, former Vice President Dick Cheney and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

The case alleges Congress failed to follow the Constitution, which "provides that Congress must fully qualify the candidate 'elected' by the Electoral College Electors."

The complaint also asserts "when Obama was born his father was a British subject/citizen and Obama himself was the same." The case contends the framers of the U.S. Constitution, when they adopted the requirement that a president be a "natural born citizen," excluded dual citizens.

In a statement on his blog, Apuzzo said the next step in his case is a decision from the court.

"We will now wait and see if the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals grants my request for oral argument and if so when the oral argument will be," he said.

His latest filing also has been posted online.

It argues that the district court decision as well as Obama's arguments "are nothing more than presentations of general statements on the law of standing which do not address the specific factual and legal content of plaintiffs' claims. … The defendants in much of their brief basically tell the court that the Kerchner case should be dismissed because all other Obama cases have been dismissed."

He said it is "self-evident" under the Constitution that "anyone aspiring to be president has to conclusively prove that he or she is eligible to hold that office. Part of that burden is conclusively showing that one is a 'natural born citizen.' Hence, the citizenship status of Obama is critical to the question of whether plaintiffs having standing, for it is that very statute which is the basis of their injury in fact."

He noted the case was filed before Obama became president.

"At this time he was still a private individual who had the burden of proving that he satisified each and every element of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. That plaintiffs filed their action at this time is important for it not only sets the time by which we are to judge when their standing attached to their action against Obama, Congress and the other defendants … but also to show that Obama has the burden of proof to show that he is a 'natural born citizen' and satisfied the other requirements of Article II," Apuzzo wrote.


"At no time in these proceedings or in any other of the many cases that have been filed against him throughout the country has Obama produced a 1961 contemporaneous birth certificate from the state of Hawaii showing that he was born there … We must conclude for purposes of defendants' motion that since Obama is not a 14th Amendment 'Citizen of the United States' let alone an Article II 'natural born citizen,' he is not eligible to be president and commander in chief. Not being eligible to be president and commander in chief he is currently acting as such without constitutional authority. It is Obama's exercising the singular and great powers of the president and commander in chief without constitutional authority which is causing plaintiffs' injury in fact."

The argument cites warnings from both George Washington and John Jay about the "insidious wiles of foreign influence" in the White House.

WND reported earlier when the appeals court indicated it was listening to arguments in the case and granted special permission for an extra-long document to be filed.

The judges approved Apuzzo's request to submit arguments totaling 20,477 words, when the normal limit is 14,000 words.

He said the arguments are not complicated.

"We maintain that Obama is not an Article II 'natural born citizen' because he lacks unity of citizenship and allegiance from birth which is obtained when a child is born in the United States to a mother and father who are both United States citizens at the time of birth," he said.

WND has reported on dozens of legal challenges to Obama's status as a "natural born citizen." The Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, states, "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President."

Some of the lawsuits question whether he was actually born in Hawaii, as he insists. If he was born out of the country, Obama's American mother, the suits contend, was too young at the time of his birth to confer American citizenship to her son under the law at the time.

Demand the truth by joining the petition campaign to make President Obama reveal his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate!

Other challenges have focused on Obama's citizenship through his father, a Kenyan subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of his birth, thus making him a dual citizen. The cases contend the framers of the Constitution excluded dual citizens from qualifying as natural born. And still others contend he holds Indonesian citizenship from his childhood living there.

Adding fuel to the fire is Obama's persistent refusal to release documents that could provide answers and the appointment – at a cost confirmed to be at least $1.7 million – of myriad lawyers to defend against all requests for his documentation. While his supporters cite an online version of a "Certification of Live Birth" from Hawaii as his birth verification, critics point out such documents actually were issued for children not born in the state.

WND also has reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama includes his kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, medical records, files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and his adoption records.

Because of the dearth of information about Obama's eligibility, WND founder Joseph Farah has launched a campaign to raise contributions to post billboards asking a simple question: "Where's the birth certificate?"

"Where's The Birth Certificate?" billboard at the Mandalay Bay resort on the Las Vegas Strip.

The campaign followed a petition that has collected more than 495,000 signatures demanding proof of his eligibility, the availability of yard signs raising the question and the production of permanent, detachable magnetic bumper stickers asking the question.

The "certification of live birth" posted online and widely touted as "Obama's birth certificate" does not in any way prove he was born in Hawaii, since the same "short-form" document is easily obtainable for children not born in Hawaii. The true "long-form" birth certificate – which includes information such as the name of the birth hospital and attending physician – is the only document that can prove Obama was born in Hawaii, but to date he has not permitted its release for public or press scrutiny.

Oddly, though congressional hearings were held to determine whether Sen. John McCain was constitutionally eligible to be president as a "natural born citizen," no controlling legal authority ever sought to verify Obama's claim to a Hawaiian birth.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=131589

[menace]

IF you pay him his demanded $100... Oh yeah, he's a real patriot that one...

Don't be suprise if there are April Fools day hoaxes made.

This is what Ed Hale as posted, he probley have more on his radio show tonight.

http://pub44.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3764075825&frmid=6712&msgid=1115228&cmd=show

[menace]

Notice: Jacqlyn Smith sent this information in the form of an email yesterday and I wouldn’t have any part of it. I don’t trust Ed Hale. However, our friends over at ObamaReleaseYourRecords sent us this weblink posting. My apologies to Jacqlyn for not believing that the information may have had some truth behind it.

Disclaimer: It is April Fool’s day! Until the document is actually available to the public I am still skeptical. Maybe this will turn out to NOT be an April Fool’s trick. Who really knows?

Snippets via Plains Radio Network:

Tonight I will release Obama Birth Certificate that was in the vault in the State of Hawaii. This is his original BC that the director stood up and said “I have seen his BC and he is a NBC”. Well now I am about to prove that woman lie to America with the same document that she claims he was a NBC with…

…this is how I got it:

I have a friend in Hawaii who contacted me in Feb and ask if I would be interested in the Obama long form BC. I said yes but under certain conditions. It must be proven to be legit. They agreed and sent me the BC. I had 3 major Colleges test this document. All test prove that this is the real deal.

How this document was removed from the State of Hawaii vault? A supervisor retired a few months back, on their last day on the job, about 15 minutes before closing time, they walk into the vault, folded it up and then stuck it in their shirt and walked out with it. The reason that did this was because the director had lied to the American people about Obama place of birth and he was a NBC. They wanted to set the record straight. Now we have the document with the supporting document from these colleges that proves beyond any doubt that this is real and it is legit…”

UPDATE: Ed Hale reported tonight(3/31/10) that a sitting U.S. Congressman was at his home this morning to view the document. The Congressman is now in possession of the document and was headed to Washington D.C. with the document.

Ed Hale then reports that the Congressman contacted him this evening and said he showed the Republican leadership the document and they all agree the document is legit.

The Congressman also told Ed Hale that he and the others involved will have immunity from criminal prosecution due to the criminal nature of obtaining the birth certificate. Ed reports the Congressman promised to have Obama removed.

Ed Hale says the Congressman will be on his radio show tonight(4/1) to reveal himself and the birth certificate. Ed reported that Fox News called him yesterday and offered him a million dollars for the birth certificate… Fox News wanted full control of the document and its release… He turned Fox News down…

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/03/obamas-birth-certificate-will-be.html

[Kilika]

What was he thinking in givng a Congressman the actual document, assuming it is even in his possesion? Does Hale actually expect to ever see it again? I sure hope if this Hale guy is telling the truth that he also made sure he could prove his words beyond doubts, including this congressman. Otherwise this is a sick April fools joke simply because of the massive implications of what Hale claims the congressman says he is doing with it.

[menace]

Yes it was an April Fools trick by Ed Hale.

[lord edward coke]

 http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22262


If a friend or acquaintance posed the question: "Who uses someone else's Social Security number?" how would you answer them? (I was going to say who uses a phony Social Security number, but since Uncle Sam is now recycling Social Security numbers because they are close to running out of them, just about any combination of numbers you put together today will be someone's Social Security number.) Most likely the first thought that would come to your mind when asked that question would be: "An illegal alien." Second would be someone intent on committing identity fraud, since having access to a person's name and Social Security number is like getting the key to their assets. That's why identify theft is a class C felony. Class C felonies, depending on the State in which the crime is committed, carries prison sentences from 10 up to 40 years. In other words, using someone else's Social Security number in order to conceal your own identity or lack of standing as a citizen, is a serious crime although most illegal aliens who are caught using someone else's Social Security number are simply deported.


But what do you do if the guy living in the White House uses Social Security number 042-68-XXXX that was actually issued in the State of Connecticut between 1977 and 1979 to an individual who was born in 1890? Interestingly, the SSN does not appear in the Social Security death index and now has two dates of birth tied to it: Aug. 4, 1961 and the year 1890. As a US Senator, this man used an entirely different Social Security number—282-90-XXXX. It should have been pretty easy for the federal government's paymaster to flag this one since this is the best known person in America. The latter Social Security number was used by Sen. Barack Hussein Obama and the former one was used by Obama when he moved to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. No one in the federal government or, for that matter, in the Social Security Administration seemed to notice the slight discrepancy. A guy with the same name in the Oval Office and the Hart Office Building were using different SSN numbers? Is there a bureaucrat anywhere in Washington, DC who thinks there are two Barack Obama's running around Washington? Okay. It's possible. But, not in the US government—one in the Senate and one in the White House. If there was, everyone in the country would know that. But I guess it would be possible to have "name coincidence" in the District. But, how about 27 of them all named Barack Hussein Obama? That's not like being named John Smith where you have a couple dozen in every phone book in America.


Or that his wife, Michelle Obama, who is a natural born US citizen, has used at least four false SSNs? One of the four numbers she uses, is 282-88-XXXX. This is the SSN number she uses in the White House and it is likely her original SSN (even though she was using 350-60-XXXX when she lived at 5046 Greenwood Avenue in Chicago in Aug. of 2005, some three years or more before taking up residency in the White House). The earliest records found on the 350-SS number by Ohio private investigator Susan Elizabeth Daniels, who was hired by Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq. was dated 2005. Also hired by Taitz to ferret out the SSNs used by Obama was Mission Hills, CA private investigator Neil Sankey who formerly served as a detective for Scotland Yard before becoming a naturalized citizen of the United States. Taitz is challenging Barack Obama's constitutional right to reside at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. And while court after court has refused to force Obama to produce his original long form birth certificate to verify that he was born in the United States and is constitutionally qualifies to hold the office of President, in her lawsuit, Civil Action 10-151, filed on Mar. 22, 2010, Taitz is pushing the issue and is not likely to give up until Obama produces his birth certificate or admits he has none. Her current case, Civil Action 10-151 is being heard by Presiding Judge Royce Lamberth, US District Court for the District of Columbia. Taitz filed a motion to allow a Quo Warranto proceeding. Quo warranto is been suppressed at the federal level (and in most States) because it forces politicians to answer to the people for acts they commit while in office (by forcing the politician to show by what authority they acted as they did.) It is a "citizens' remedy" under the 9th Amendment. It allows the people to use the Constitution against the politician who has committed a breach of public trust. As I said, it is for that reason that few State courts allow its application as well—it simply empowers the people too much. That danged old Constitution just keeps getting in the way of those trying to govern. Must be why the social progressives are trying so hard to get rid of it.


In December, 1981, when Congress passed the Omnibus Reconciliation Act to restore minimum benefits under the Social Security Act of 1981, it added a provision that made it a federal felony for anyone to "...willfully, knowingly, and with intent to deceive the Commissioner of Social Security as to his true identity (or the true identity of any other person) [furnish] or cause to be furnished false information to the Commissioner of Social Security with respect to any information required by the Commissioner of Social Security in connection with the establishment and maintenance of records provided for in section 405(c)(2) of this title." In other words, when you appropriate, for personal use, someone else's Social Security number—even if the SSN-owner is now deceased, the wrongful use of that number is a felony.


In her lawsuit, Taitz also alleges "...a predicate act under RICO." In addition to the purported improper use of Social Security cards not assigned to him, Taitz alleges that her case, Lightfoot v Bowen, was erased from the docket of the Supreme Court, suggesting to her, "...aiding and abetting in commission of fraud and a corrupt organization with a common scheme to defraud the country." She continued that "...[on] Oct. 1, 2009 Sidharth Velamoor, attorney for Perkins Coie, Obama's defense firm, where Robert Bauer, White House Chief Counsel, is a partner, was hired as a clerk for Judge David O. Carter. Shortly after Valamoor was hired by Carter, Carter decided he no longer had jurisdiction to hear Barnett et al Obama et al, which dealt with Obama's illegitimacy to presidency. Those actions suggest improper influence on the federal judge in an effort to affect the outcome of the litigation. These facts suggest violation of the civil rights of Taitz, an attorney on the case, and her clients under 42 USC 1983, which constitutes a predicate act of RICO."


Taitz further argued that Obama "...has no right to privacy or expectation of privacy in his use of multiple Social Security numbers issued in other States, where he never resided, as well as numbers never assigned." Taitz is seeking a Writ of Mandamus to force the complete disclosure of the application for SSN 042-68-4425, the SSN Obama is currently using as chief executive of the nation. Did Obama simply appropriate its use, or did someone do him a political favor and actually assign the number to him? What makes me believe that someone in the Social Security Administration, or at least somewhere in the bureaucracy, helped him is that Obama is using a few Social Security numbers that have never been issued to anyone. Those numbers are worth a small fortune to someone needing a clean SSN that has never been used. When you have a Manchurian Candidate you are dressing up to play the role of the nation's chief executive, you have to make sure he has all the trappings he needs to fool the people. That's why there's such a brisk business at the US-Mexico border for green cards, social security cards and drivers' licenses. It's the paperwork trifecta every illegal needs to survive in the United States. When you want to work in the United States without bothering to apply for a work visa or citizenship, you do the next best thing—you find an ID vendor. And, you can't find this guy in the Yellow Pages.


When Obama arrived in Jackson, New Jersey, he used SSN 485-40-5154, which was issued in 1954-55, in Iowa, to Lucille Ballantyne. Ballantyne was born on Dec. 22, 1912 and died on Sept. 13, 1998. It appears that three people are using 350-60-2302. Daniels tied the card to Michelle Obama. Sankey linked it to Barack Obama. Both Obamas and whomever the original SSN holder's was are attached to that number. What is most interesting is that among the 39 social security cards that Sankey and Daniels discovered linked to the Obama family SSNs for Obama, his wife and his mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, none of them were issued in Hawaii, which in itself, according to Taitz, is evidence of Obama's foreign birth. Since all you need to get a social security card is a birth certificate and one other form of ID, one wonders why, since Obama claims he has his original, long form birth certificate, it appears he has gone through his entire life using Social Security cards which formerly belonged to someone else.




Obama's lawyers attempted to quash Taitz's Sua Sponte motion. On Thursday, April 15 Judge Lamberth denied the motion by Obama's lawyers to kill the lawsuit, and in particular, this section of her filing. Dr. Taitz, the president of the Defend Our Freedoms Foundation, is both a Doctor of Jurisprudence and a Doctor of Dental Surgery. She has fought constitutional and civil liberties violations of over 200 US citizens—the most pressing and demanding of which is the answer to a simple question: is Barack Hussein Obama constitutionally eligible to serve as the President of the United States. Taitz noted that, at this time, over 100 legal actions have been filed all over the United States by some 13 licensed attorneys and numerous pro se plaintiffs, and in spite of 12 grand jury presentments and indictments, Obama has refused to provide any vital records to prove his eligibility to serve as the President based on Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution.



From birth until today, Obama claims allegiance and citizenship to three nations—none of which are the United States. He can claim joint citizenship in Kenya and Indonesia. England claims he owes allegiance to Great Britain. (Obama appears to feel he owes allegiance to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia whom former Manhattan borough president Percy Sutton claims footed the bill for Obama's Harvard education. Was this the reason for Obama's waist-deep bow to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia when they met shortly after Obama's inauguration?)


In the first of the three parts of Civil Action 10-151, Taitz noted that as she attempted to represent her clients in her actions against Obama, she was subjected to vicious attacks from the media acting as regime official propaganda, from Obama supporters and from some members of the judiciary "...acting as tools to silence her and intimidate her into dropping her legal actions." She further noted that "...he was subjected to numerous death threats, tampering with her car when a fumes emission hose was disconnected and hot, combustible fumes were going back to the engine as she was driving her three children in the car."


When her investigators produced evidence that Obama was, or had been, using multiple Social Security numbers, she filed a Freedom of Information Act request under 5 USC 552(b)(6). Her request was denied by Dawn S. Wiggins, Deputy Executive Director, Office of Privacy & Disclosure for the Social Security Administration. On the SSA website, Wiggins claims all applicants for a Social Security card must provide at least two documents to prove age, identity and US citizenship, or have a valid green card. I guess Obama thought the only two documents he needed were the birth announcements Obama's grandmother placed in two Honolulu newspapers claiming he was born in that city when Stanley Ann Dunham called from Mombassa, Kenya to let her know that her grandson was just born at the Coast Provincial Hospital. Wiggins denied Taitz's FOIA request because, she said, it would deny Obama his right to privacy. Taitz filed an appeal.



Taitz is seeking a Writ of Mandamus to force the Social Security Administration to produce Obama's application for the Social Security number 042-68-4425. If the US District Court grants her wish it 's very likely the Social Security Administration will appeal Lamberth's ruling to the appellate level in order to protect Obama's privacy. The question is, without evidence from the Social Security Administration that Obama did not apply for that number, or that the Social Security Administration did not assign that number or the other 27 social security numbers he has used to him, will that court find, based on the number of SSNs he has used, that he simply appropriated them for his own use? Or will they cover their eyes and plug their ears and conclude that the world's biggest SSN boondoggle in history had taken place?


Clearly, if the 28 Social Security numbers Obama uses, or has used during his lifetime, were appropriated by him for his personal use, a case can be made that he has committed multiple Class C felonies in order to conceal the fact that he does not possess a United States birth certificate. If that's true, and the only Hawaiian birth certificate he possesses is a "Certification of Live Birth" from Hawaii (which was issued as a personal favor to him by Hawaiian Gov. Linda Lingle) rather than a Certificate of Live Birth that is accompanied by "eye witness signatures" which are affidavits of his birth in Honolulu, Hawaii on Aug. 4, 1961 rather than in Mombassa, Kenya on the same day. Then, even without the elusive long form Hawaiian birth certificate that appears not to exist, Obama could be forced to resign or be impeached and removed from office. The question remains unanswered whether or not he would be prosecuted. While it is unlikely, if he was prosecuted, would evidence that contests the legitimacy of every piece of legislation he signed as head-of-state, and every political appointment he made, be presented and reverse the legislative edicts of the worst presidency since John Adams attempted to give himself the powers of a king? I think the Social Progressives will sacrifice Obama in order to keep their agenda secure.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22221

[lord edward coke]

DC Knows that Obama is Ineligible for Office
 By JB Williams  Tuesday, April 20, 2010
Members from all three branches of the Federal government already know that Barack Hussein Obama is ineligible for the office of President. National leaders, to include members of the US Supreme Court, already know that Barack Hussein Obama is not a “natural born citizen” of the United States of America, and therefore, is ineligible for the office he currently holds. (See JB’s new article on The Bottom Line on Natural Born Citizen)

What they don’t know is how long it will take for most Americans to figure it out, or what to do about it.

The diversionary search for an authentic birth certificate is ongoing and Obama has now spent in excess of $2 million in legal fees to keep that search alive.

 
Eric Holder’s Department of Justice continues to deploy taxpayer funded attorneys around the country to file dismissals on behalf of Obama, denying all American citizens access to the courts as a peaceful remedy, which only fuels the fire of discontent and the questions about Obama persist.

Michelle Obama states that Kenya is Barack’s “home country.” She knows, after twenty years with Barack. The Ambassador or Kenya has confirmed the same  His family friends all know it, and are in fact quite proud of the fact that Americans had no hesitation in electing a “black man from Kenya” as President of the United States.

The US Supreme Court knows what the constitutional condition of “natural born citizen” means. Even the most far left member of that court, Justice Ginsberg, is on record proclaiming that a “natural born citizen” is a birth child of TWO legal US citizens.

Democrat Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi knows that Barack Hussein Obama is not eligible for the office of president, which is why she refused to certify the following language when certifying Obama as the DNC candidate for president in 2008.

This is the language filed by the DNC in the other 49 states, however-
Note that the language which certifies that Barack Hussein Obama meets all constitutional qualifications is missing in the DNC documents filed in 49 of the 50 states. The certification of constitutional qualification for the office of president was filed only in Hawaii. That text is missing in the DNC certification filings for all other states.

Whereas the RNC filed the exact same certification document, including the constitutional text for John McCain in all 50 states, Obama was technically certified in only one state, Hawaii. A mere inconvenient technicality, I’m sure…

The US Congress knows that Barack Hussein Obama is not constitutionally qualified for the office he holds. Although the congress passed a resolution proclaiming Senator John McCain a “natural born citizen” as the son of two US citizens, no such congressional resolution exists for Barack Hussein Obama.

The press knows that Obama is not a “natural born citizen,” having written on several occasions about the “Kenyan born” senator from Chicago. A number of citizens have already been arrested and jailed for asking these questions.

Over four-hundred law suits have been filed across the country asking the courts to force Obama to become the “transparent president” he promised to be, and all four-hundred are being dismissed before discovery, all on the basis that “no citizen has proper legal standing” to ask who and what their president really is…

Over a half-million citizens have now signed a petition demanding to see Obama’s birth records.

Numerous members of the US Military have refused deployment orders from Obama, on the basis that he refuses to evidence his constitutional qualifications to issue such orders. In most cases, the soldiers have simply been reassigned, so as to avoid any disciplinary action that could end in “defense discovery” which might finally force Obama to open up his files once and for all.

Now an eighteen year veteran flight surgeon and active Lt. Colonel faces court martial as he makes his demands for proof that Obama is constitutionally eligible to issue orders as Commander-in-Chief.

Obama’s entire domestic, foreign and national defense agenda has proven to be wholly anti-American
Obama’s entire domestic, foreign and national defense agenda has proven to be wholly anti-American on every possible level. Still, the answers concerning who and what Barack Hussein Obama Jr. really is remain elusive in the face of unprecedented efforts to ask the right questions.

No matter who asks, how they ask or where they ask, not one single individual in Washington DC or even state government seems willing to weigh in on the most important issue of our era. Who and what is the man sitting in the people’s White House?

How in the hell did we get an overtly anti-American resident of the people’s White House without so much as a simple birth certificate to prove who this person really is?

And why won’t a single elected representative of the people engage in the effort to force an answer to this question?

The answers to these and many more questions are likely very simple and equally chilling…

The Speaker of the House does not refuse to certify her candidate as “constitutionally qualified” in forty-nine of fifty states by accident
Nobody spends $2 million in legal fees to hide an authentic birth certificate. The Speaker of the House does not refuse to certify her candidate as “constitutionally qualified” in forty-nine of fifty states by accident. A press that knew he was the “first Kenyan born senator” didn’t forget that he was Kenyan born when he decided to run for president.

Most importantly, the people DO have a right (read - proper standing) to ask who and what their president really is, in any court, any time. And soldiers are court-martialed for refusing orders, unless those orders were issued by an illegitimate Commander-in-Chief.

DC knows what most Americans have yet to figure out…

Obama is NOT a natural born citizen no matter where he might have been born. Obama’s birth father was at no time an American citizen and on this basis alone, Obama cannot be a constitutionally qualified resident of the White House.

They know something else that the American people have yet to figure out…

The US Constitution no longer stands as the governing law of this land. Obama’s many unconstitutional policies, Czars, executive orders and statements provide the proof, and the fact that nobody in DC cares whether or not Obama is constitutionally qualified to be president of the United States should send a shiver down the spine of every red blooded American citizen, no matter their partisan agendas.

The people willing to ask the tough questions are deemed crackpots and conspiracy theorists, racists or bigots. But those tough questions should be obvious questions to all Americans and every president should have to answer those questions, no matter race, creed, color or party affiliation.

I fear that those questions will only be answered at the tip of pitch forks and torches one day. Sooner or later, the people will run out of patience with a system built to exclude them. When that day comes, I fear what methods will be employed and whether or not there will be a country left to save by then.

But sooner or later, one way or another, Obama will have to answer those questions. One day, the world will know who and what this man is and there will be a day of reckoning like no other in American history.

The longer it takes for that day to arrive, the more dangerous the situation will become. A man not even qualified to hold the office is using that office to destroy the greatest nation on earth. How much patience can the people be expected to display?

Obama is not eligible for the office he currently holds and everyone in a position to know - already know.

What they don’t know is how much longer they can keep it all a secret, or what will happen next.

http://www.jonchristianryter.com/2010/100419.html

[TahoeBlue]

Did anyone catch the anderson Cooper CNN "birther" diatribe the last couple of days?

"birthers" are "stupid" ...

Of course they do not address any of the issues raised in this thread.

They are also very careful in construction of their arguments to avoid the issues raised in this thread.

[Kilika]

They also like to toss out misleading information. Notice the caption under the photo, then notice what they call that document in the article!

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/13/hawaii-can-ignore-repeated-requests-for-pres-birth-certificate/?fbid=XeOeeP4-6Jh#more-104077

May 13, 2010

TRENDING: Hawaii can ignore repeated requests for pres. birth certificate

Posted: May 13th, 2010 05:44 PM ET
From CNN Political Producer Shannon Travis


 
President Obama’s certification of live birth.


Washington (CNN) - Hawaii would like for so-called "birthers" to stop asking to see President Obama's birth certificate.

The state passed a law on Wednesday that allows state agencies to ignore repeated requests to view government records, including the president's birth document. Hawaii's Republican Gov. Linda Lingle signed the legislation into law.

This will impact requests from a fringe movement dubbed the "birthers." Adherents question President Obama's constitutional eligibility to be commander-in-chief, suggesting he was not born in the United States despite proof that he was born in Hawaii in 1961. CNN and other news organizations have thoroughly debunked the rumors about the president's birthplace.

Hawaii has released a copy of the president’s birth certificate – officially called a “certificate of live birth” – and the hospital took out ads in two Hawaiian newspapers announcing the 1961 birth.

But adherents to the “birther” theories persist. Army surgeon Lt. Col. Terry Lakin subscribes to the “birther” theory and faces a court martial for refusing to deploy to Afghanistan unless the president shows his birth certificate. He disputes that the Hawaii birth certificate is real.

“I believe we need truth on this matter,” he said in an interview earlier this week on CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360.


In recent testimony to a state senate panel considering the new law, Hawaii Director of Health Chiyome L. Fukino said her office receives about 50 emails a month requesting access to the president's birth certificate.

Fukino cited a small group of individuals "who engage in a pattern of repeated requests" in a transcript of her testimony provided to CNN. "We believe having to respond repeatedly to essentially the same request or a variation of the request all centering on whether or not President Obama was born in Hawaii is a frivolous use of department time and resources."

And in a recent WABC interview before she signed the bill, Hawaii's Republican governor said the birth certificate issue “is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country.”

“And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health,” Lingle said. “ … The president was in fact born at Kapi'olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that's just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and email and want to make it an issue. And I think it's, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this."

"It's been established he was born here,” the governor added. “I can understand why people want to make certain that the constitutional requirement of being a, you know, natural born American citizen … but the question has been asked and answered. And I think just we should all move on now."

Filed under: 'Birthers' • Hawaii • President Obama

[lord edward coke]

BORN IN THE USA?

Elena Kagan tied to Obama's birth certificate

Just as the U.S. Senate was voting to install President Obama's one-time solicitor general, Elena Kagan, on the U.S. Supreme Court bench, a case was discovered in which she represented the government against an organization called "The Real Truth About Obama."

Kagan, while solicitor general of the U.S. from March 2009 until May, was listed as the government's counsel on the files when the dispute reached the U.S. Supreme Court.

The case focuses on the organization's desire to broadcast ads explaining Obama's support for abortion, but it explains it "was in danger of an enforcement action and civil and criminal penalties by the Federal Election Commission" because of its uncertainty over federal campaign rules.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=187797

[Jackson Holly]

I don't think this latest Wayne Madsen report has been posted:

Obama’s CIA Pedigree

http://www.a-w-i-p.com/index.php/2010/08/09/obama-s-cia-pedigree

[Kilika]

http://www.azfamily.com/outbound-feeds/yahoo-news/Hawaii-responds-to-Bennetts--152213005.html

Hawaii responds to Bennett's Obama birth records request

by Andrew Michalscheck
Video Report by Tess Rafols
Posted on May 21, 2012 at 8:34 AM

Updated today at 8:49 AM
Related:
•'Birther' controversy could keep President off the AZ ballotadd to reading list
Gallery
.See all 6 photos »

PHOENIX -- The state of Hawaii has responded to Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett’s request for proof that President Barack Obama was in fact born in the Aloha State.

The Hawaii attorney general’s office has reportedly told Bennett that there are steps he needs to take in order to confirm President Obama’s birth records.

Those steps include Bennett proving that he legitimately needs confirmation in order to update the records at his office.

What part of the Constitution does this clown not understand?