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Author Topic: The plan to Inject sulfur into the atmosphere "hell on earth"  (Read 3005 times)
nofakenews
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« on: December 01, 2008, 09:24:51 PM »

What is geoengineering? How might injecting sulfate aerosol particles into the stratosphere result in a temporary planetary cooling? Would this be analogous to creating the equivalent of a long-term volcanic eruption? Would this be a permanent solution to a global warming or an exercise in buying time to effectively address the root cause of the climate problem? What is the logic behind it and what are the mechanics of it? What sorts of policies would likely have to be in place in order to engage in such a venture? Who decides and who is liable if things go awry? Does science inform us of the potential risks and negative impacts of engaging in such a venture? Is clean coal and carbon capture and storage one and the same? What is meant by the term ‘clean’ in clean coal? Does the technology currently exist to produce clean coal on a massive scale and if so, at what cost relative to today’s energy costs. What are the risks of leakage of CO2 from underground storage reservoirs after the fact? Who is likely to be liable for leakage? How much of a difference would clean coal technology ideally make in mitigating our present climate trajectory?

Moderator:

Dr. Anthony Socci, Senior Science Fellow, American Meteorological Society

Speakers:

Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor of Atmospheric Science; Director of the Meteorology Undergraduate Program, and Associate Director, Center for Environmental Prediction, Department of Environmental Sciences, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ

Dale Simbeck, Vice President and Founding Partner of SFA Pacific, Inc., Technology and Energy Consultants, Mountain View, CA

Program Summary

Managing Incoming Solar Radiation
Largely out of concern that society may fall short of taking large and rapid enough measures to effectively contain the problem of global warming, two prominent atmospheric scientists - Paul Crutzen, who won a Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1995, and Tom Wigley, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research - published papers in 2006, suggesting that society might consider using geoengineering schemes to identify a temporarily "fix" to the problem. The schemes were suggested as an interim measure intended to buy time to prevent the worst damage from global warming while society used that time to identify and deploy measures to address the root cause of the problem. Such suggestions however, are not new.

The concept of geoengineering - deliberately using technology to modify Earth's environment - has been discussed in the context of climate change since at least 1960. Over the years, proposals have included everything from carbon sequestration through ocean fertilization to damming the oceans. Crutzen and Wigley argued that geoengineering schemes, if done continuously, could reduce global warming enough to buy society time to address mitigation. However, geoengineering schemes may not be the answer. And in fact, such measures have the potential to create more problems than they solve.

In particular, Crutzen and Wigley focused on blocking incoming solar radiation, an idea that has generated much interest in the press and the scientific community. Nature offers an example of how to do this. Volcanic eruptions cool the climate for up to a couple of years by injecting precursors to sulfate aerosol particles into the stratosphere, which has the effect of temporarily blocking incoming sunlight. It is true that volcanic eruptions cool the climate, but their effects are not innocuous, and should serve as a warning to society to be very cautious about deploying such geoengineering “solutions” without careful and considered evaluation beforehand. Among other things, the particles from volcanic eruptions also cause ozone depletion. Furthermore, reducing solar radiation also reduces evaporation, and hence precipitation, more than warming by greenhouse gases increases precipitation. Thus, checking the temperature (incoming solar radiation) with aerosols actually reduces global average precipitation.

Furthermore, the cooling from such measures is not uniform. In the Northern Hemisphere, aerosols cause more cooling over the Eurasian continent than over the oceans in the summer, thus reducing the strength of the Asian summer monsoon, which provides rain to grow the food supply for billions of people. Reductions in rain have historically been observed after major volcanic eruptions, but they only last a year or two, and do not have long-lasting consequences. With continuous geoengineering, however, these effects would persist for years.

There are other reasons to be concerned about “solar radiation management.” There would be less solar radiation for solar power, especially for systems requiring direct radiation. Plant growth would be affected in still unknown ways. And by not dealing directly with greenhouse gas emissions, carbon dioxide would continue to accumulate in the oceans and the atmosphere, resulting in more ocean acidification and the continued build up of more climate-warming greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Furthermore, if such geoengineering were to stop precipitously, as a result of failures of technology, societal will or capability, warming would likely be exceptionally rapid, as these measures treat the symptoms of a warming climate and not the root causes. The rate of climate change is also one of the most important disrupting factors.

Even if geoengineering proved effective in the short term, whose hand would be on the thermostat? Who would be held liable if the experiments went awry? Furthermore, it is possible that the world could not agree on an optimal temporary cooling. What if Russia, for example, wanted the temperature to be a couple of degrees warmer and India a couple degrees cooler? And who would arbitrate? Should this temporary cooling effect set the planetary temperature to the pre-industrial value or keep it constant at today's temperature? Would it be possible to tailor the climate of each region of the planet independently without affecting the others? Current scientific understanding of these issues says no. Consequently, if society proceeds with geoengineering schemes, might it also be setting the stage for climate wars of the future?

One of the most important concerns among many is that schemes perceived to temporarily cool the planet will lessen the incentive to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions or worse, give the impression of being permanent solutions to the root causes of climate change. Yes, geoengineering research should continue. Society desperately needs to better understand the efficacy and potential problems related to such measures. Unfortunately, there are no current US research programs on geoengineering, nor any funding for such programs. At some point society may well need to consider geoengineering as an emergency stop-gap measure, but such a decision should be informed by modeling studies to better assess the potential impacts and the dangers involved. However, even if geoengineering measures are deployed, society would be remiss to fall into the trap of equating treating the symptoms of the problem with measures that serve to mitigate the root causes of the problem. The more headway society is capable of making in the realm of mitigating climate change, the less likely society might need to deploy interim geoengineering measures.

Clean Coal Technology and Future Prospects
Clean coal technologies are real, commonly used in commercial industrial gasification and likely essential to reduce CO2 due to the fast growing use of coal worldwide, especially in China. Commercial example of clean coal technology in the USA is the 25 year-old coal to synthetic natural gas (SNG) plant in North Dakota where all of the CO2 is captured and most is geologically storage for use in enhanced oil recovery (EOR) in Canada.

The key issue is expanding clean coal technologies into coal-based electric power generation. This expansion presents additional challenges - more technology options and higher cost of CO2 capture than for industrial gasification. This also requires large-scale demonstration of all three CO2 capture technology options: pre, post and oxygen combustion. In time, the CO2 capture and storage costs will be reduced by both “learning by doing” and developing advanced technologies already moving in to small-scale demonstrations.

The way forward is likely to focus on CO2 capture and storage (CCS) based on rebuilding the old, paid-off, lower efficiency and relatively dirty coal power plants in the USA. This approach can avoid capacity and efficiency loses of CCS while at the same time greatly reducing all emissions.

Biographies
Dr. Alan Robock is a Distinguished Professor of atmospheric science in the Department of Environmental Sciences at Rutgers University and the associate director of its Center for Environmental Prediction. He also directs the Rutgers Undergraduate Meteorology Program. He graduated from the University of Wisconsin, Madison, in 1970 with a B.A. in Meteorology, and from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with an S.M. in 1974 and Ph.D. in 1977 in Meteorology. Before graduate school, he served as a Peace Corps Volunteer in the Philippines. He was a professor at the University of Maryland, 1977-1997, and the State Climatologist of Maryland, 1991-1997, before coming to Rutgers.

Dr. Robock has published more than 250 articles on his research in the area of climate change, including more than 150 peer-reviewed papers. His areas of expertise include geoengineering, regional atmosphere-hydrology modeling, climatic effects of nuclear weapons, soil moisture variations, the effects of volcanic eruptions on climate, detection and attribution of human effects on the climate system, and the impacts of climate change on human activities.

Dr. Robock is a Fellow of the American Meteorological Society and President of the Atmospheric Sciences Section of the American Geophysical Union. He has been a Member Representative for Rutgers to the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research since 2001, and serves on its President's Advisory Committee on University Relations. Dr. Robock is also the American Meteorological Society/Sigma Xi Distinguished Lecturer for the academic year 2008-2009, and is a contributor to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007.

During his first sabbatical in 1986-1987, Dr. Robock was a AAAS Congressional Science Fellow. At that time he served as a Legislative Assistant to Congressman Bill Green (R-NY), and as a Research Fellow for the Environmental and Energy Study Conference.

Dale Simbeck joined SFA Pacific in 1980 as a founding partner. His principal activities involve technical, economic and market assessments of energy and environmental technologies for the major international energy companies. This work includes electric power generation, heavy oil upgrading, emission controls and synthesis gas production plus utilization.

Mr. Simbeck’s work on the global climate change issue includes a private multiclient analysis of greenhouse gas mitigation options for over 30 major international energy companies. Among a host of things, he was a lead author of the 2005 IPCC Special Report on CO2 Capture and Storage (CCS). He is also an advisor to the CO2 Capture Projects (CCP-1&2) and the Canadian Clean Power Coalition (CCPC). His public assistance on this important issue includes work for the United Nations, World Bank, the Global Environmental Facility (GEF) and the Governments of Canada, China and the United States.

Mr. Simbeck is a Chemical Engineering graduate of Pennsylvania State University. He has also assisted the Engineering Department of Stanford University as a Ph.D. advisor and Massachusetts Institute of Technology as a member of the External Advisory Broad to the MIT Energy Lab. Dale is a Registered Professional Engineer in California and has made numerous presentations on the technical and economic challenges of CO2 mitigation and clean coal technology. His peer reviewed papers on CO2 mitigation are mostly for the 1998-2006 International Conference on Greenhouse Gas Technologies (GHGT), including a technical session keynote at the GHGT-9 in Washington, DC. November 17, 2008.
 
http://www.ametsoc.org/atmospolicy/EnvironmentalScienceSeminarSeries.html

Yes brimstone could be injected some time in the atmosphere.....
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netizen_x
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 09:51:31 PM »

Oh, the arrogance of scientific triumphalism!  Angry
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JBS
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 09:59:36 PM »

Having a dregree in geology I can tell you that this planet is in a state of a balanced environmental equilibrium. For every action there is a reaction and if you change the equation you may never recover and fooling with the atomosphere which controls the weather on the planet will only have catasrophic consequences that will take hundreds of years to recover from, if at all. By then you can kiss life on earth goodbye. So much for the NWO.
When you play with fire, you will get burned.
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heavyhebrew
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 10:21:02 PM »

Brought to us by the same folks who think gene engineering the food supply is a great idea for poor people!
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chris jones
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 04:05:18 AM »

Having a dregree in geology I can tell you that this planet is in a state of a balanced environmental equilibrium. For every action there is a reaction and if you change the equation you may never recover and fooling with the atomosphere which controls the weather on the planet will only have catasrophic consequences that will take hundreds of years to recover from, if at all. By then you can kiss life on earth goodbye. So much for the NWO.
When you play with fire, you will get burned.

Bump that. +++ To mention MONEY may be involved in this venture, not human lives, not this earth. Insanity at its finest,
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iamc
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 05:37:26 AM »

Man playing God once again.  ???These mad scientists are tinkering with the fine tuned parameters of earth.
And when they mess with one [sulfer?] it will mess up something else! Angry
( The earth, solar system, the galaxy, and the universe are so fine tuned; is would make a 'swiss watch' maker proud!) Cool
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Triadtropz
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 05:41:51 AM »

I think some of the things going on, on earth. are upsetting the whole universe...so many whacky science projects...let it be..
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iamc
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 06:34:51 AM »

I think some of the things going on, on earth. are upsetting the whole universe...so many whacky science projects...let it be..
Well said! Cool I feel as if we are living in a bad B Movie from the 1950's = Mad Scientists are Everywhere!
( if it ain't broken! don't try and fix it!)
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...as the sunshine of Life rises in the East...the Truth will always set in the West...thus Freedom will always arise the next day...
zafada
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 02:26:58 PM »

Having a dregree in geology I can tell you that this planet is in a state of a balanced environmental equilibrium. For every action there is a reaction and if you change the equation you may never recover and fooling with the atomosphere which controls the weather on the planet will only have catasrophic consequences that will take hundreds of years to recover from, if at all. By then you can kiss life on earth goodbye. So much for the NWO.
When you play with fire, you will get burned.

See, this is how I look at it.  The planet's fine.  But once we intentionally fck with it, we're screwed.
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TheHouseMan
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 07:28:03 AM »

Yea, this won't happen.
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nofakenews
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 05:15:34 PM »

Yea, this won't happen.

People said the same thing about oil that it would never be this low.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 11:18:43 PM »

People said the same thing about oil that it would never be this low.  Roll Eyes
I know the Lindsay Williams story off by heart hearing it so many times..  Tongue
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 11:21:18 PM »

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23724412-2,00.html

Tim Flannery's radical climate change 'solution'

    * Mankind "pump sulphur into atmosphere to survive"
    * Measure may change colour of the sky
    * "Would deflect sun's rays, slow global warming"


SCIENTIST Tim Flannery has proposed a radical solution to climate change which may change the colour of the sky.

But he says it may be necessary, as the "last barrier to climate collapse."

Professor Flannery says climate change is happening so quickly that mankind may need to pump sulphur into the atmosphere to survive.

Australia's best-known expert on global warming has updated his climate forecast for the world - and it's much worse than he thought just three years ago.

He has called for a radical suite of emergency measures to be put in place.

The gas sulphur could be inserted into the earth's stratosphere to keep out the sun's rays and slow global warming, a process called global dimming.

"It would change the colour of the sky," Prof Flannery told AAP.

"It's the last resort that we have, it's the last barrier to a climate collapse.

"We need to be ready to start doing it in perhaps five years time if we fail to achieve what we're trying to achieve."

Prof Flannery, the 2007 Australian of the Year, said the sulphur could be dispersed above the earth's surface by adding it to jet fuel.

He conceded there were risks to global dimming via sulphur.

"The consequences of doing that are unknown."

'Cutting emissions not enough'

Professor Flannery, who spoke at a business and sustainability conference in Parliament House today, said new science showed the world was much more susceptible to greenhouse gas emissions that had been thought eight years ago.

Regardless of what happened to emissions in the future, there was already far too much greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, he said.

Cutting emissions was not enough. Mankind now had to take greenhouse gases out of the air.

"The current burden of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere is in fact more than sufficient to cause catastrophic climate change," Prof Flannery said.

"Everything's going in the wrong direction at the moment, timelines are getting shorter, the amount of pollution in the atmosphere is growing.

"It's extremely urgent."

'Use eBay to plant forests'

As well as the global dimming plan, Prof Flannery said carbon should be taken out of the air and converted into charcoal, then ploughed into farmers' fields.

Wealthy people should pay poor farmers in tropical zones to plant forests - possibly through a direct purchase scheme like the eBay website.

And all conventional coal-fired power stations - which did not have "clean coal" technology - should be closed by 2030.

Capturing carbon emissions from coal-fired power stations and storing it underground - called carbon capture and storage (CCS) - was a good idea, Professor Flannery said.

He urged Australia to dramatically fast-track CCS research and give the technology to the Chinese, who are building the equivalent of one new coal-fired power station a week.

Prof Flannery said while the Rudd Government was doing more to tackle climate change than its predecessor, it was still "nowhere near enough."

He called on the Government to remove the means test on the $8000 rebate for domestic solar panels introduced in last week's budget.

"It's probably the bureaucrats getting in the way, we all know that sort of policy is not going to work," he said.
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sociostudent
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 01:53:08 AM »

Yeah, but if there's no global warming (it's actually cooling off due to the sun being in a quiet phase of cooling down), won't this make it a FROZEN HELL ON EARTH?  Huh
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al0152
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 01:58:17 AM »

Having a dregree in geology I can tell you that this planet is in a state of a balanced environmental equilibrium. For every action there is a reaction and if you change the equation you may never recover and fooling with the atomosphere which controls the weather on the planet will only have catasrophic consequences that will take hundreds of years to recover from, if at all. By then you can kiss life on earth goodbye. So much for the NWO.
When you play with fire, you will get burned.

According to NWO's dictionary, this is called "evolution".
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nofakenews
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2008, 02:23:03 AM »

Yeah, but if there's no global warming (it's actually cooling off due to the sun being in a quiet phase of cooling down), won't this make it a FROZEN HELL ON EARTH?  Huh

I was thinking the same way but remember how they talk about sea spray and volcano sulfur can mess with the ozone or weather control......
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2008, 11:01:01 PM »

Yeah, but if there's no global warming (it's actually cooling off due to the sun being in a quiet phase of cooling down), won't this make it a FROZEN HELL ON EARTH?  Huh

That's what I was thinking. Then the Mad Scientists will pat themselves on the back and say 'see it worked, it's cooler now. We are so geeeeenius.'
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