Hiroshima and Nagasaki

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Offline bigron

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« on: August 06, 2008, 08:02:20 AM »
Hiroshima and Nagasaki

by Ralph Raico


This excerpt from Ralph Raico's "Harry S. Truman: Advancing the Revolution" in John V. Denson, ed., Reassessing the Presidency: The Rise of the Executive State and the Decline of Freedom (Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2001), is reprinted with permission. (The notes are numbered as they are because this is an excerpt. Read the whole article.)

The most spectacular episode of Truman’s presidency will never be forgotten, but will be forever linked to his name: the atomic bombings of Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, and of Nagasaki three days later. Probably around two hundred thousand persons were killed in the attacks and through radiation poisoning; the vast majority were civilians, including several thousand Korean workers. Twelve U.S. Navy fliers incarcerated in a Hiroshima jail were also among the dead.87

Great controversy has always surrounded the bombings. One thing Truman insisted on from the start: The decision to use the bombs, and the responsibility it entailed, was his. Over the years, he gave different, and contradictory, grounds for his decision. Sometimes he implied that he had acted simply out of revenge. To a clergyman who criticized him, Truman responded, testily:

Nobody is more disturbed over the use of Atomic bombs than I am but I was greatly disturbed over the unwarranted attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor and their murder of our prisoners of war. The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them.88

Such reasoning will not impress anyone who fails to see how the brutality of the Japanese military could justify deadly retaliation against innocent men, women, and children. Truman doubtless was aware of this, so from time to time he advanced other pretexts. On August 9, 1945, he stated: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."89

This, however, is absurd. Pearl Harbor was a military base. Hiroshima was a city, inhabited by some three hundred thousand people, which contained military elements. In any case, since the harbor was mined and the U.S. Navy and Air Force were in control of the waters around Japan, whatever troops were stationed in Hiroshima had been effectively neutralized.

On other occasions, Truman claimed that Hiroshima was bombed because it was an industrial center. But, as noted in the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, "all major factories in Hiroshima were on the periphery of the city – and escaped serious damage."90 The target was the center of the city. That Truman realized the kind of victims the bombs consumed is evident from his comment to his cabinet on August 10, explaining his reluctance to drop a third bomb: "The thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible," he said; he didn’t like the idea of killing "all those kids."91Wiping out another one hundred thousand people . . . all those kids.

Moreover, the notion that Hiroshima was a major military or industrial center is implausible on the face of it. The city had remained untouched through years of devastating air attacks on the Japanese home islands, and never figured in Bomber Command’s list of the 33 primary targets.92

Thus, the rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication, which has gained surprising currency: that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives. These, supposedly, are the lives that would have been lost in the planned invasion of Kyushu in December, then in the all-out invasion of Honshu the next year, if that was needed. But the worst-case scenario for a full-scale invasion of the Japanese home islands was forty-six thousand American lives lost.93 The ridiculously inflated figure of a half-million for the potential death toll – nearly twice the total of U.S. dead in all theaters in the Second World War – is now routinely repeated in high-school and college textbooks and bandied about by ignorant commentators. Unsurprisingly, the prize for sheer fatuousness on this score goes to President George H.W. Bush, who claimed in 1991 that dropping the bomb "spared millions of American lives."94

Still, Truman’s multiple deceptions and self-deceptions are understandable, considering the horror he unleashed. It is equally understandable that the U.S. occupation authorities censored reports from the shattered cities and did not permit films and photographs of the thousands of corpses and the frightfully mutilated survivors to reach the public.95 Otherwise, Americans – and the rest of the world – might have drawn disturbing comparisons to scenes then coming to light from the Nazi concentration camps.

The bombings were condemned as barbaric and unnecessary by high American military officers, including Eisenhower and MacArthur.96 The view of Admiral William D. Leahy, Truman’s own chief of staff, was typical:

the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. . . . My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.97

The political elite implicated in the atomic bombings feared a backlash that would aid and abet the rebirth of horrid prewar "isolationism." Apologias were rushed into print, lest public disgust at the sickening war crime result in erosion of enthusiasm for the globalist project.98 No need to worry. A sea-change had taken place in the attitudes of the American people. Then and ever after, all surveys have shown that the great majority supported Truman, believing that the bombs were required to end the war and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, or more likely, not really caring one way or the other.

Those who may still be troubled by such a grisly exercise in cost-benefit analysis – innocent Japanese lives balanced against the lives of Allied servicemen – might reflect on the judgment of the Catholic philosopher G.E.M. Anscombe, who insisted on the supremacy of moral rules.99 When, in June 1956, Truman was awarded an honorary degree by her university, Oxford, Anscombe protested.100 Truman was a war criminal, she contended, for what is the difference between the U.S. government massacring civilians from the air, as at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Nazis wiping out the inhabitants of some Czech or Polish village?

Anscombe’s point is worth following up. Suppose that, when we invaded Germany in early 1945, our leaders had believed that executing all the inhabitants of Aachen, or Trier, or some other Rhineland city would finally break the will of the Germans and lead them to surrender. In this way, the war might have ended quickly, saving the lives of many Allied soldiers. Would that then have justified shooting tens of thousands of German civilians, including women and children? Yet how is that different from the atomic bombings?

By early summer 1945, the Japanese fully realized that they were beaten. Why did they nonetheless fight on? As Anscombe wrote: "It was the insistence on unconditional surrender that was the root of all evil."101

That mad formula was coined by Roosevelt at the Casablanca conference, and, with Churchill’s enthusiastic concurrence, it became the Allied shibboleth. After prolonging the war in Europe, it did its work in the Pacific. At the Potsdam conference, in July 1945, Truman issued a proclamation to the Japanese, threatening them with the "utter devastation" of their homeland unless they surrendered unconditionally. Among the Allied terms, to which "there are no alternatives," was that there be "eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest [sic]." "Stern justice," the proclamation warned, "would be meted out to all war criminals."102

To the Japanese, this meant that the emperor – regarded by them to be divine, the direct descendent of the goddess of the sun – would certainly be dethroned and probably put on trial as a war criminal and hanged, perhaps in front of his palace.103 It was not, in fact, the U.S. intention to dethrone or punish the emperor. But this implicit modification of unconditional surrender was never communicated to the Japanese. In the end, after Nagasaki, Washington acceded to the Japanese desire to keep the dynasty and even to retain Hirohito as emperor.

For months before, Truman had been pressed to clarify the U.S. position by many high officials within the administration, and outside of it, as well. In May 1945, at the president’s request, Herbert Hoover prepared a memorandum stressing the urgent need to end the war as soon as possible. The Japanese should be informed that we would in no way interfere with the emperor or their chosen form of government. He even raised the possibility that, as part of the terms, Japan might be allowed to hold on to Formosa (Taiwan) and Korea. After meeting with Truman, Hoover dined with Taft and other Republican leaders, and outlined his proposals.104

Establishment writers on World War II often like to deal in lurid speculations. For instance: if the United States had not entered the war, then Hitler would have "conquered the world" (a sad undervaluation of the Red Army, it would appear; moreover, wasn’t it Japan that was trying to "conquer the world"?) and killed untold millions. Now, applying conjectural history in this case: assume that the Pacific war had ended in the way wars customarily do – through negotiation of the terms of surrender. And assume the worst – that the Japanese had adamantly insisted on preserving part of their empire, say, Korea and Formosa, even Manchuria. In that event, it is quite possible that Japan would have been in a position to prevent the Communists from coming to power in China. And that could have meant that the thirty or forty million deaths now attributed to the Maoist regime would not have occurred.

But even remaining within the limits of feasible diplomacy in 1945, it is clear that Truman in no way exhausted the possibilities of ending the war without recourse to the atomic bomb. The Japanese were not informed that they would be the victims of by far the most lethal weapon ever invented (one with "more than two thousand times the blast power of the British ‘Grand Slam,’ which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare," as Truman boasted in his announcement of the Hiroshima attack). Nor were they told that the Soviet Union was set to declare war on Japan, an event that shocked some in Tokyo more than the bombings.105 Pleas by some of the scientists involved in the project to demonstrate the power of the bomb in some uninhabited or evacuated area were rebuffed. All that mattered was to formally preserve the unconditional surrender formula and save the servicemen’s lives that might have been lost in the effort to enforce it. Yet, as Major General J.F.C. Fuller, one of the century’s great military historians, wrote in connection with the atomic bombings:

Though to save life is laudable, it in no way justifies the employment of means which run counter to every precept of humanity and the customs of war. Should it do so, then, on the pretext of shortening a war and of saving lives, every imaginable atrocity can be justified.106

Isn’t this obviously true? And isn’t this the reason that rational and humane men, over generations, developed rules of warfare in the first place?

While the mass media parroted the government line in praising the atomic incinerations, prominent conservatives denounced them as unspeakable war crimes. Felix Morley, constitutional scholar and one of the founders of Human Events, drew attention to the horror of Hiroshima, including the "thousands of children trapped in the thirty-three schools that were destroyed." He called on his compatriots to atone for what had been done in their name, and proposed that groups of Americans be sent to Hiroshima, as Germans were sent to witness what had been done in the Nazi camps. The Paulist priest, Father James Gillis, editor of The Catholic World and another stalwart of the Old Right, castigated the bombings as "the most powerful blow ever delivered against Christian civilization and the moral law." David Lawrence, conservative owner of U.S. News and World Report, continued to denounce them for years.107 The distinguished conservative philosopher Richard Weaver was revolted by

the spectacle of young boys fresh out of Kansas and Texas turning nonmilitary Dresden into a holocaust . . . pulverizing ancient shrines like Monte Cassino and Nuremberg, and bringing atomic annihilation to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Weaver considered such atrocities as deeply "inimical to the foundations on which civilization is built."108

Today, self-styled conservatives slander as "anti-American" anyone who is in the least troubled by Truman’s massacre of so many tens of thousands of Japanese innocents from the air. This shows as well as anything the difference between today’s "conservatives" and those who once deserved the name.

Leo Szilard was the world-renowned physicist who drafted the original letter to Roosevelt that Einstein signed, instigating the Manhattan Project. In 1960, shortly before his death, Szilard stated another obvious truth:

If the Germans had dropped atomic bombs on cities instead of us, we would have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them.109

The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a war crime worse than any that Japanese generals were executed for in Tokyo and Manila. If Harry Truman was not a war criminal, then no one ever was.

Notes

On the atomic bombings, see Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb and the Architecture of an American Myth (New York: Knopf, 1995); and idem, "Was Harry Truman a Revisionist on Hiroshima?" Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations Newsletter 29, no. 2 (June 1998); also Martin J. Sherwin, A World Destroyed: The Atomic Bomb and the Grand Alliance (New York: Vintage, 1977); and Dennis D. Wainstock, The Decision to Drop the Atomic Bomb (Westport, Conn.: Praeger, 1996).

Alperovitz, Decision, p. 563. Truman added: "When you deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true." For similar statements by Truman, see ibid., p. 564. Alperovitz’s monumental work is the end-product of four decades of study of the atomic bombings and is indispensable for comprehending the often complex argumentation on the issue.

Ibid., p. 521.

Ibid., p. 523.

Barton J. Bernstein, "Understanding the Atomic Bomb and the Japanese Surrender: Missed Opportunities, Little-Known Near Disasters, and Modern Memory," Diplomatic History 19, no. 2 (Spring 1995): 257. General Carl Spaatz, commander of U.S. strategic bombing operations in the Pacific, was so shaken by the destruction at Hiroshima that he telephoned his superiors in Washington, proposing that the next bomb be dropped on a less populated area, so that it "would not be as devastating to the city and the people." His suggestion was rejected. Ronald Schaffer, Wings of Judgment: American Bombing in World War II (New York: Oxford University Press, 1985), pp. 147–48.

This is true also of Nagasaki.

See Barton J. Bernstein, "A Post-War Myth: 500,000 U.S. Lives Saved," Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 42, no. 6 (June–July 1986): 38–40; and idem, "Wrong Numbers," The Independent Monthly (July 1995): 41–44.

J. Samuel Walker, "History, Collective Memory, and the Decision to Use the Bomb," Diplomatic History 19, no. 2 (Spring 1995): 320, 323–25. Walker details the frantic evasions of Truman’s biographer, David McCullough, when confronted with the unambiguous record.

Paul Boyer, "Exotic Resonances: Hiroshima in American Memory," Diplomatic History 19, no. 2 (Spring 1995): 299. On the fate of the bombings’ victims and the public’s restricted knowledge of them, see John W. Dower, "The Bombed: Hiroshimas and Nagasakis in Japanese Memory," in ibid., pp. 275–95.

Alperovitz, Decision, pp. 320–65. On MacArthur and Eisenhower, see ibid., pp. 352 and 355–56.

William D. Leahy, I Was There (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1950), p. 441. Leahy compared the use of the atomic bomb to the treatment of civilians by Genghis Khan, and termed it "not worthy of Christian man." Ibid., p. 442. Curiously, Truman himself supplied the foreword to Leahy’s book. In a private letter written just before he left the White House, Truman referred to the use of the atomic bomb as "murder," stating that the bomb "is far worse than gas and biological warfare because it affects the civilian population and murders them wholesale." Barton J. Bernstein, "Origins of the U.S. Biological Warfare Program," Preventing a Biological Arms Race, Susan Wright, ed. (Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press, 1990), p. 9.

Barton J. Bernstein, "Seizing the Contested Terrain of Early Nuclear History: Stimson, Conant, and Their Allies Explain the Decision to Use the Bomb," Diplomatic History 17, no. 1 (Winter 1993): 35–72.

One writer in no way troubled by the sacrifice of innocent Japanese to save Allied servicemen – indeed, just to save him – is Paul Fussell; see his Thank God for the Atom Bomb and Other Essays (New York: Summit, 1988). The reason for Fussell’s little Te Deum is, as he states, that he was among those scheduled to take part in the invasion of Japan, and might very well have been killed. It is a mystery why Fussell takes out his easily understandable terror, rather unchivalrously, on Japanese women and children instead of on the men in Washington who conscripted him to fight in the Pacific in the first place.

G.E.M. Anscombe, "Mr. Truman’s Degree," in idem, Collected Philosophical Papers, vol. 3, Ethics, Religion and Politics (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1981), pp. 62–71.

Anscombe, "Mr. Truman’s Degree," p. 62.

Hans Adolf Jacobsen and Arthur S. Smith, Jr., eds., World War II: Policy and Strategy. Selected Documents with Commentary (Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-Clio, 1979), pp. 345–46.

For some Japanese leaders, another reason for keeping the emperor was as a bulwark against a possible postwar communist takeover. See also Sherwin, A World Destroyed, p. 236: "the [Potsdam] proclamation offered the military die-hards in the Japanese government more ammunition to continue the war than it offered their opponents to end it."

Alperovitz, Decision, pp. 44–45.

Cf. Bernstein, "Understanding the Atomic Bomb," p. 254: "it does seem very likely, though certainly not definite, that a synergistic combination of guaranteeing the emperor, awaiting Soviet entry, and continuing the siege strategy would have ended the war in time to avoid the November invasion." Bernstein, an excellent and scrupulously objective scholar, nonetheless disagrees with Alperovitz and the revisionist school on several key points.

J.F.C. Fuller, The Second World War, 1939–45: A Strategical and Tactical History (London: Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1948), p. 392. Fuller, who was similarly scathing on the terror-bombing of the German cities, characterized the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "a type of war that would have disgraced Tamerlane." Cf. Barton J. Bernstein, who concludes, in "Understanding the Atomic Bomb," p. 235:

In 1945, American leaders were not seeking to avoid the use of the A-bomb. Its use did not create ethical or political problems for them. Thus, they easily rejected or never considered most of the so-called alternatives to the bomb.

Felix Morley, "The Return to Nothingness," Human Events (August 29, 1945) reprinted in Hiroshima’s Shadow, Kai Bird and Lawrence Lifschultz, eds. (Stony Creek, Conn.: Pamphleteer’s Press, 1998), pp. 272–74; James Martin Gillis, "Nothing But Nihilism," The Catholic World, September 1945, reprinted in ibid., pp. 278–80; Alperovitz, Decision, pp. 438–40.

Richard M. Weaver, "A Dialectic on Total War," in idem, Visions of Order: The Cultural Crisis of Our Time (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1964), pp. 98–99.

Wainstock, Decision, p. 122.

August 6, 2004

Ralph Raico [send him mail] is a senior scholar of the Mises Institute.

Copyright © 2001 by the Ludwig von Mises Institute.
All rights reserved.


 
 
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Offline bigron

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 08:04:57 AM »
WWII survivors want N-weapons banned

By Lynn Wilde II
Deseret News
Published: August 5, 2008
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700248431,00.html


Two World War II survivors, one American, one Japanese, met Monday in Salt Lake City.
Dick Sherwood, a pilot in World War II, and Takashi Hiraoka, a former mayor of Hiroshima, met at Sherwood's home to commemorate the 63rd anniversary of the dropping of an atomic bomb over Hiroshima, Japan.

When Sherwood was 21 years old in 1945, he flew a photography reconnaissance mission over the recently bombed city. What he saw devastated him: a thriving, noisy city silenced by "Little Boy," the bomb that ushered in the nuclear age. As he flew, his plane met no resistance from enemies or structure.

"It (the city) was laid flat," Sherwood said, his piercing blue eyes filled with pain.

The politician-turned-peace-activist Hiraoka was a junior high school student with his family in Korea when the bomb fell. He said the protrusions in the landscape — houses and buildings — were gone, burned.

"When he got off the train, he could see all the way to the ocean," Hiraoka said through an interpreter, something that was not possible before because of all the buildings obstructing the view.

All that was left of the dwellings were the safes people used to store their valuables.

Sherwood wouldn't describe what he saw, only that the photos were too graphic to be seen by the American public. Hiraoka said he didn't see any bodies — they were all removed in the six weeks it took for him to get home.

They both agree the city was leveled.

Consequently, they despise nuclear weapons.

Hiraoka said he thinks dropping nuclear bombs on civilians was inhumane. Because of his experiences, he thinks all nuclear weapons should be banned. Sherwood agrees with the former mayor. He wants to convince governments to outlaw nuclear weapons.

One person affected by Sherwood's experiences is his son, Kim Sherwood. His booming voice is a contrast to his father's soft-spoken one.

"One of the things that's bothered my father for years was the way the negotiations were handled," Kim Sherwood said, particularly about whether the emperor would continue running the country.

Kim Sherwood said he believes the U.S. demand for total surrender created confusion over the emperor's status. He said the Japanese people were used to a totalitarian government and worried they would have no one to lead the country. Without the emperor, there was a fear among the people that the country would be plunged into chaos. And, because the Japanese people did not want the emperor to be tried for war crimes, they were slow to accept a total surrender, he added.

Kim Sherwood said he believes the Allies used this point to keep the Japanese in war status, not surrender status, so they could drop the bomb.

"We maintained the situation of war long enough for us to test bombs on civilians targets," Kim Sherwood said.

Hiraoka said he also believes there was no need for the bomb. He believes the civilian population and most government officials had reached a point where they wanted the war to end. Also, most of the military was devastated by the war. He believes if the U.S. had guaranteed the safety of the emperor, surrender would have been swift.

Earlier on Monday, Hiraoka spoke to a group at Utah Valley University. He told the audience that when nuclear weapons are abolished, Hiroshima will be fully healed of its wounds.

He will speak again on Wednesday at 7:30 p.m. at the Salt Lake Main Library auditorium.


Offline birgit

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 08:55:16 AM »

 There are people today itching to repeat this insanity.
But if they were faced with this possibility for themselves they would scream
UNFAIR >:( INHUMANE >:( UNJUST  >:(  WAR CRIMES!!!!

It's  in a land far far away, so it is cool to be barbaric?
Remove the scales from their eyes, Lord please!
And turn off their TV's
TRUTH  is  INCONTROVERTIBLE

  Malice   may  attack it
Ignorance  may  deride it
     But in the  end...
             HERE  IT IS ! 
                      ~ unknown

Offline bigron

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 07:52:25 AM »
Send a Hiroshima Day E-Card

 http://www.truemajorityaction.org/postcard/index_patton.php


  In honor of Hiroshima Day, we'd like to take a minute to reflect on just how absurd it is for America to maintain 10,000 nuclear bombs. Defense experts say that many simply aren't needed, and by reducing the nuclear arsenal our country could save $14 billion dollars -- more than enough to save the lives of six million kids who die of starvation in impoverished nations each year.


see short video here :
http://www.truemajorityaction.org/postcard/index_patton.php
 
 

Offline Al Bundy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 03:08:17 PM »
Last month US State Secretary Kerry refused to apology for bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
After summit of G7, After the summit, US President Obama has confirmed that he will not apologize for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, although he won the Nobel Peace Prize.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-japan-obama-idUSKCN0Y11KC

Offline chris jones

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 08:53:04 PM »
 The war to end all wars, they said. The for and against philosophy's.

Harry Truman made the call, the justification , it would save American soldiers lives.
 Others say the Japan was on the verge of surrending, the fire bombing alone was leveling japan.
The Historical review.com..    ( Against it)
A Beaten Country

Apart from the moral questions involved, were the atomic bombings militarily necessary? By any rational yardstick, they were not. Japan already had been defeated militarily by June 1945. Almost nothing was left of the once mighty Imperial Navy, and Japan's air force had been all but totally destroyed. Against only token opposition, American war planes ranged at will over the country, and US bombers rained down devastation on her cities, steadily reducing them to rubble.

What was left of Japan's factories and workshops struggled fitfully to turn out weapons and other goods from inadequate raw materials. (Oil supplies had not been available since April.) By July about a quarter of all the houses in Japan had been destroyed, and her transportation system was near collapse. Food had become so scarce that most Japanese were subsisting on a sub-starvation diet.

On the night of March 9-10, 1945, a wave of 300 American bombers struck Tokyo, killing 100,000 people. Dropping nearly 1,700 tons of bombs, the war planes ravaged much of the capital city, completely burning out 16 square miles and destroying a quarter of a million structures. A million residents were left homeless.

Those for it. SC;  WWW.Forbes

About a year after the war ended, the “was it necessary?” Monday-morning quarterbacks emerged and began to question the military necessity and morality of the use of nuclear weapons on Japanese cities.  Since then, there have been periodic eruptions of revisionism, uninformed speculation and political correctness on this subject, perhaps the most offensive of which was the Smithsonian Institution’s plan for an exhibition of the Enola Gay for the 50th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima.  In a particularly repugnant exercise of political correctness, the exhibit was planned to emphasize the “victimization” of the Japanese, mentioning the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor only as the motivation for the “vengeance” sought by the United States.  (The exhibit as originally conceived was eventually canceled.)

The historical context and military realities of 1945 are often forgotten in judging whether it was “necessary” for the United States to use nuclear weapons.  The Japanese had been the aggressors, launching the war with a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 and subsequently systematically and flagrantly violating various international agreements and norms by employing biological and chemical warfare, torturing and murdering prisoners of war, and brutalizing civilians and forcing them to perform slave labor and prostitution.

Just my opinion, I can't stomach nuclear in any form.
& I do not justify the genocide of civilians....
] PS; The history kinda tells us the US Gov knew Japan was on the move long before Pearl.

American Volunteer Group: Claire L. Chennault and the Flying Tigers ...
www.historynet.com/american-volunteer-group-clair...


The story of the Flying Tigers also began in the early 1930s, when Captain ... to help Chinese ground troops stop the invading swarms of Imperial Japanese ..
 Given the fact Americans were voluntaring to fight against the  invaders indicates the Gov was well aware of the impending threat. Add to this the Pearl Harbor so called suprise attack,  baffles me, no one saw a Jap fleet, no one in this world saw them coming, yet it was front page news in Hawaii before the attack. There are so many telltale covers in this mess, FDR decided to let the japs hit us rather than stepping up to the plate and taking them on at sea or long before they left their harbor. The  number of volunteers to fight what they called the jap sneak attack was endless it was designed.
 Just to mention..The Japanese military were also invading the Philipines the same day...
If and a big if, the American citizens were made aware of the impending invasion perhaps hundred of thousand  lives would have been saved.
 Looking back, had the US citizenry been told the facts I  have a feeling Pearl could have been avoided along with the creation of the A bomb.
 Wars are planned. The japanese military were generationly sheep dipped, they didn't prepare for the attacks overnight, this was an ongoing dipping of the Japanese population.
 GWB and all the kings men didn't use nukes in Iraq but he bombed it into the stone age, the justification was WMD's, in short again-wars are planned.
 
 
 
 

Offline Al Bundy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 09:50:55 PM »
The war to end all wars, they said. The for and against philosophy's.

Harry Truman made the call, the justification , it would save American soldiers lives.
 Others say the Japan was on the verge of surrending, the fire bombing alone was leveling japan.
The Historical review.com..    ( Against it)
A Beaten Country

Apart from the moral questions involved, were the atomic bombings militarily necessary? By any rational yardstick, they were not. Japan already had been defeated militarily by June 1945. Almost nothing was left of the once mighty Imperial Navy, and Japan's air force had been all but totally destroyed. Against only token opposition, American war planes ranged at will over the country, and US bombers rained down devastation on her cities, steadily reducing them to rubble.

What was left of Japan's factories and workshops struggled fitfully to turn out weapons and other goods from inadequate raw materials. (Oil supplies had not been available since April.) By July about a quarter of all the houses in Japan had been destroyed, and her transportation system was near collapse. Food had become so scarce that most Japanese were subsisting on a sub-starvation diet.

On the night of March 9-10, 1945, a wave of 300 American bombers struck Tokyo, killing 100,000 people. Dropping nearly 1,700 tons of bombs, the war planes ravaged much of the capital city, completely burning out 16 square miles and destroying a quarter of a million structures. A million residents were left homeless.

Those for it. SC;  WWW.Forbes

About a year after the war ended, the “was it necessary?” Monday-morning quarterbacks emerged and began to question the military necessity and morality of the use of nuclear weapons on Japanese cities.  Since then, there have been periodic eruptions of revisionism, uninformed speculation and political correctness on this subject, perhaps the most offensive of which was the Smithsonian Institution’s plan for an exhibition of the Enola Gay for the 50th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima.  In a particularly repugnant exercise of political correctness, the exhibit was planned to emphasize the “victimization” of the Japanese, mentioning the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor only as the motivation for the “vengeance” sought by the United States.  (The exhibit as originally conceived was eventually canceled.)

The historical context and military realities of 1945 are often forgotten in judging whether it was “necessary” for the United States to use nuclear weapons.  The Japanese had been the aggressors, launching the war with a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 and subsequently systematically and flagrantly violating various international agreements and norms by employing biological and chemical warfare, torturing and murdering prisoners of war, and brutalizing civilians and forcing them to perform slave labor and prostitution.

Just my opinion, I can't stomach nuclear in any form.
& I do not justify the genocide of civilians....
] PS; The history kinda tells us the US Gov knew Japan was on the move long before Pearl.

American Volunteer Group: Claire L. Chennault and the Flying Tigers ...
www.historynet.com/american-volunteer-group-clair...


The story of the Flying Tigers also began in the early 1930s, when Captain ... to help Chinese ground troops stop the invading swarms of Imperial Japanese ..
 Given the fact Americans were voluntaring to fight against the  invaders indicates the Gov was well aware of the impending threat. Add to this the Pearl Harbor so called suprise attack,  baffles me, no one saw a Jap fleet, no one in this world saw them coming, yet it was front page news in Hawaii before the attack. There are so many telltale covers in this mess, FDR decided to let the japs hit us rather than stepping up to the plate and taking them on at sea or long before they left their harbor. The  number of volunteers to fight what they called the jap sneak attack was endless it was designed.
 Just to mention..The Japanese military were also invading the Philipines the same day...
If and a big if, the American citizens were made aware of the impending invasion perhaps hundred of thousand  lives would have been saved.
 Looking back, had the US citizenry been told the facts I  have a feeling Pearl could have been avoided along with the creation of the A bomb.
 Wars are planned. The japanese military were generationly sheep dipped, they didn't prepare for the attacks overnight, this was an ongoing dipping of the Japanese population.
 GWB and all the kings men didn't use nukes in Iraq but he bombed it into the stone age, the justification was WMD's, in short again-wars are planned.
 
 
 
 

But Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was not "sneak attack". On the contrary. US Intelligence did not want to hide anything and to do their duty informed the US President F. Roosevelt about the Japanese plan of attack on the US military base in Hawaii. But...
On this Forum there is a topic about US President Roosevelt knew about Japanese plan.

There is my source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8932197/Pearl-Harbour-memo-shows-US-warned-of-Japanese-attack.htmlhttp://

Offline chris jones

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2016, 04:46:21 PM »
Hi Al.
Agreed it was not a sneak attack, the intelligence service didn't hide anything from FDR, his wife Elenor diary is archived, she mentions her husband discussing with his top advisor the forthcoming invasion of Pearl.
 FDR was not hiding in in the White house oval office unaware of this.
BBC. Documentary
BACKGROUND

1904 - The Japanese destroyed the Russian navy in a surprise attack in undeclared war.
1932 - In The Grand Joint Army Navy Exercises the attacker, Admiral Yarnell, attacked with 152 planes a half-hour before dawn 40 miles NE of Kahuku Point and caught the defenders of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. It was a Sunday.
1938 - Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born airstrike from the USS Saratoga successfully against Pearl Harbor in another exercise.
1940 - FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.
7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished.
11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes.
11 February 1941 - FDR proposed sacrificing 6 cruisers and 2 carriers at Manila to get into war. Navy Chief Stark objected: "I have previously opposed this and you have concurred as to its unwisdom. Particularly do I recall your remark in a previous conference when Mr. Hull suggested (more forces to Manila) and the question arose as to getting them out and your 100% reply, from my standpoint, was that you might not mind losing one or two cruisers, but that you did not want to take a chance on losing 5 or 6." (Charles Beard PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT AND THE COMING OF WAR 1941, p 424)
March 1941 - FDR sold munitions and convoyed them to belligerents in Europe -- both acts of war and both violations of international law -- the Lend-Lease Act.
23 Jun 1941 - Advisor Harold Ickes wrote FDR a memo the day after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, "There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia." FDR was pleased with Admiral Richmond Turner's report read July 22: "It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war." On July 24 FDR told the Volunteer Participation Committee, "If we had cut off the oil off, they probably would have gone down to the Dutch East Indies a year ago, and you would have had war." The next day FDR froze all Japanese assets in US cutting off their main supply of oil and forcing them into war with the US. Intelligence information was withheld from Hawaii from this point forward.
14 August - At the Atlantic Conference, Churchill noted the "astonishing depth of Roosevelt's intense desire for war." Churchill cabled his cabinet "(FDR) obviously was very determined that they should come in."
18 October - diary entry by Secretary of Interior Harold Ickes: "For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan."
CODES

Purple Code - the top Japanese diplomatic machine cipher which used automatic telephone switches to separately and differently encipher each character sent. It was cracked by the Army Signal Intelligence Service (331 men).
J-19 was the main Japanese diplomatic code book. This columnar code was cracked.
Coral Machine Cipher or JNA-20 was a simplified version of Purple used by Naval attaches. Only one message deciphered prior to Pearl Harbor has been declassified.
JN-25 - The Japanese Fleet's Cryptographic System, a.k.a. 5 number code (Sample). JN stands for Japanese Navy, introduced 1 June 1939. This was a very simple old-type code book system used by the American Army and Navy in 1898 and abandoned in 1917 because it was insecure. Version A has a dictionary of 5,600 numbers, words and phrases, each given as a five figure number. These were super-enciphered by addition to random numbers contained in a second code book. The dictionary was only changed once before PH on Dec 1, 1940, to a slightly larger version B but the random book was changed every 3 to 6 months- last on Aug 1. The Japanese blundered away the code when they introduced JN25-B by continuing to use, for 2 months, random books that had been previously solved by the Allies. That was the equivalent of handing over the JN-25B codebook. It was child's play for the Navy group OP-20-G (738 men whose primary responsibility was Japanese naval codes) to reconstruct the exposed dictionary. We recovered the whole thing immediately - in 1994 the NSA published that JN-25B was completely cracked in December 1940. In January 1941 the US gave Britain two JN-25B code books with keys and techniques for deciphering. The entire Pearl Harbor scheme was laid out in this code. The official US Navy statement on JN-25B is the NAVAL SECURITY GROUP HISTORY TO WORLD WAR II prepared by Captain J. Holtwick in June 1971, page 398: "By 1 December 1941 we had the code solved to a readable extent." Churchill wrote "From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams."(GRAND ALLIANCE p 598) Chief of Navy codebreaking Safford reported that during 1941 "The Navy COMINT team did a thorough job on the Japanese Navy with no help from the Army."(SRH-149) The first paragraph of the Congressional Report Exhibit 151 says the US was "currently" (instantly) reading JN-25B and exchanging the "translations" with the British prior to Pearl Harbor.
In 1979 the NSA released 2,413 JN-25 orders of the 26,581 intercepted by US between Sept 1 and Dec 4, 1941. The NSA says "We know now that they contained important details concerning the existence, organization, objective, and even the whereabouts of the Pearl Harbor Strike Force." (Parker p 21) Of the over thousand radio messages sent by Tokyo to the attack fleet, only 20 are in the National Archives. All messages to the attack fleet were sent several times, at least one message was sent every odd hour of the day and each had a special serial number. Starting in early November 1941 when the attack fleet assembled and started receiving radio messages, OP-20-G stayed open 24 hours a day and the "First Team" of codebreakers worked on JN-25. In November and early December 1941, OP-20-G spent 85 percent of its effort reading Japanese Navy traffic, 12 percent on Japanese diplomatic traffic and 3 percent on German naval codes. FDR was personally briefed twice a day on JN-25 traffic by his aide, Captain John Beardell, and demanded to see the original raw messages in English. The US Government refuses to identify or declassify any pre-Dec 7, 1941 decrypts of JN-25 on the basis of national security, a half-century after the war.

AD or Administrative Code wrongly called Admiralty Code was an old four character transposition code used for personnel matters. No important messages were sent in this weak code. Introduced Nov 1938, it was seldom used after Dec 1940.
Magic - the security designation given to all decoded Japanese diplomatic messages. It's hard not to conclude with historians like Charles Bateson that "Magic standing alone points so irresistibly to the Pearl Harbor attack that it is inconceivable anybody could have failed to forecast the Japanese move." The NSA reached the same conclusion in 1955.
Ultra - the security designation for military codes.



 

Offline Al Bundy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2016, 06:46:57 PM »
Chris, this is not topic of Pearl Harbor but this chronology of events is fantastic.
Well, when we already gone from to topics. Why FDR want a war with Japan and why with Land-Leese act support any state in the world who opposed Axis powers ?

Offline chris jones

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 07:40:23 PM »
 The Axis powers and land lease, now that sounds a hell of lot different than what it actually was, the land lease provided for goods to any nation that took on the axis powers.$
 I can't back this up, no source, sorry...I was told about 50 years ago japanese emissarys were in the halls of congress before the attack on Pearl and were not allowed to present the declaration..
 I attempted to dig this up , no luck.
just my take, the Gov knew the war with japan was inevitable, FDR glich, despite what they claim was USA public opinion against it, though I feel they were not enlightened to the entire situation.
 FDR decided the cleverest method of firing up the fury of Americans was to allow Pearl to be attacked and the following propaganda it was a suprise attack would clearly  fire up the citizenry and would have its effect. ( It did)
 the japanese Admiral was actually suprised there was no resistance at Pearl, if I remember properly he said, ( we have woken the sleeping giant). It seems to me he was of the belief the Gov had received the declaration of war and instantly realized the trappings.

Imagine an armada of warships heading to Hawaii and no one was aware of it.
  Without profit there would be no war,, kinda says it,  along with depopulation.
   Pearl was the sacrificial lamb.


Offline TahoeBlue

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2016, 03:51:50 PM »
http://www.theprisonerlist.com/order-to-kill-all-pows.html
Order to kill all POWs

A year before the end of WW2, the Japanese War Ministry issued written orders to all prison camp commandants instructing them to prepare for the "final disposition" of their POWs:


 
The POWs were to be annihilated as and when Allied forces landed in the Japanese-occupied territories where they were being held. This was to prevent the POWs from being rescued (or escaping), and becoming a fighting force again.
 
...

Saved by the skin of their teeth

The Japanese were expecting an Allied invasion of Thailand on or around 21 August 1945, and were set to annihilate the prisoners on that date. (In fact, the Allies were planning to land in Thailand on 18 August, so the prisoners' demise may have been even more imminent than that.)

So, when Japan surrendered on 15 August, the Thailand prisoners were less than a week away (and POWs in the other territories less than a month away) from their planned execution date.

Now that Japan had surrendered – prompted by the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki – no Allied invasions would be necessary.

The timing of the atomic bombs had therefore been crucial: If the war had been continued by conventional means for just a short time longer, the prisoners and internees would have been killed.

...
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline Al Bundy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2016, 05:00:27 PM »
http://www.theprisonerlist.com/order-to-kill-all-pows.html
Order to kill all POWs

A year before the end of WW2, the Japanese War Ministry issued written orders to all prison camp commandants instructing them to prepare for the "final disposition" of their POWs:


 
The POWs were to be annihilated as and when Allied forces landed in the Japanese-occupied territories where they were being held. This was to prevent the POWs from being rescued (or escaping), and becoming a fighting force again.
 
...

Saved by the skin of their teeth

The Japanese were expecting an Allied invasion of Thailand on or around 21 August 1945, and were set to annihilate the prisoners on that date. (In fact, the Allies were planning to land in Thailand on 18 August, so the prisoners' demise may have been even more imminent than that.)

So, when Japan surrendered on 15 August, the Thailand prisoners were less than a week away (and POWs in the other territories less than a month away) from their planned execution date.

Now that Japan had surrendered – prompted by the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki – no Allied invasions would be necessary.

The timing of the atomic bombs had therefore been crucial: If the war had been continued by conventional means for just a short time longer, the prisoners and internees would have been killed.

...

I do not "buy" this. Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not thrown because saving Allied POW`s but the unconditional surrender of the Japanese Empire and test new powerful weapon.

Offline Peerless

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2016, 06:29:43 PM »
I do not "buy" this. Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not thrown because saving Allied POW`s but the unconditional surrender of the Japanese Empire and test new powerful weapon.

I don't really buy it either, other than accepting the dictates of the Japanese High Command as being true...

that being said, fekk the 'timing' of it all, and realize the Japanese were a ruthless adversary...they were about to fall, eh?

are you freaking serious???

their fall would have been after countless American lives had been lost being forced to fight a foot war from one end of the islands to the other, killing just about every single person capable of holding some object that could cause harm in their hands...

d00ds...do some damned research into the mindset of that culture at that time...

present day????  roflmao...they can't even do what the Russians did at Chernobly (e.g. sent in a crew of volunteers to do what was necessary and plug that sucker in cement...the deaths those true heroes died were horrific), let alone think of dying for a cause...

apology???  seriously???  if I were president, and asked/demanded for an apology, my response would be as follows: "Apology?  How dare you! Tell you what, I'll apologize after I drop a 15 megaton modern day fvcking thermonuclear warhead on your sorry a$$ for demanding such a thing"

Offline TahoeBlue

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2016, 06:47:51 PM »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2880676/I-tortured-sadistic-prison-camp-guard-Angelina-Jolie-blockbuster-British-victim-Bird-reveals-Japanese-psychopath-crucified-soldiers-got-excited-saliva-bubbled-round-mouth.html

'I was tortured by sadistic prison camp guard in Angelina Jolie blockbuster':
British victim of 'The Bird' reveals how Japanese psychopath 'crucified' soldiers and got so excited saliva bubbled round his mouth
Blockbuster The Unbroken shows torture of Olympic star Louis Zamperini
Angelina Jolie shows brutal treatment by Japanese guard Matsuhiro Watanabe
Officer 'crucified' victims by making them hold railway sleeper above head
But the film has triggered a furious backlash in Japan over depiction of camps
Now British survivor of camp reveals his own horrific ordeal in POW camp
Tom Henling Wade was attacked with SWORD 36 times by Watanabe
He tells MailOnline: 'The Japanese never know when to stop'

By Adam Luck for MailOnline

Published: 05:12 EST, 31 December 2014  | Updated: 14:21 EST, 31 December 2014
[ All POW's were marked for execution had there been an Allied invasion : ]


Allied prisoners crowded into the barracks of the recently liberated POW camp in Yokohoma in October 1945.
Many endured horrendous conditions and harsh treatment at the hands of their captors

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2880676/I-tortured-sadistic-prison-camp-guard-Angelina-Jolie-blockbuster-British-victim-Bird-reveals-Japanese-psychopath-crucified-soldiers-got-excited-saliva-bubbled-round-mouth.html#ixzz49tnku8qp
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline Al Bundy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2016, 07:48:26 PM »
This is not a topic.
Right topic will be Camps for POW in WW2.
That is my opinion.

Offline TahoeBlue

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2016, 11:32:37 AM »
http://www.thenation.com/article/hidden-history-american-pows-were-killed-hiroshima/
Hidden History: American POWS Were Killed in Hiroshima

Few American know that among the tens of thousands victims in Hiroshima were at least a dozen and perhaps more American prisoners of war.
By Greg MitchellTwitter
August 5, 2011

... few Americans know that among the tens of thousands victims in Hiroshima were at least a dozen and perhaps more American prisoners of war. This was kept from the American people—even the families of the Americans—for decades, along with so much else related to the atomic bombings (as revealed in my new book).
...
At least twenty-three US servicemen were in Hiroshima when the bomb fell. They were prisoners of war, former aviators, held at several locations in downtown Hiroshima. It’s likely we would have never learned of this if a B-29 had not ditched off Japan two days after the Hiroshima attack, on August 8, 1945. Picked up by a fishing boat, the crew ended up on a drill field in devastated Hiroshima, bound by rope and blindfolded.

A Japanese police captain saved them from a mob by taking them to the suburb of Ujina. En route he stopped at the Hiroshima train station, removed their blindfolds, and according to Matin Zapf, one of the Americans who would survive), shouted, “Look what you have done! One bomb!”


One of the captured Americans recalled the “spooky ride” to Ujina: no houses standing, nothing moving, not even a dog, and the policeman yelling, “One bomb! One bomb!”

Along the way they came across two more American prisoners: a navy aviator and an Air Force sergeant. They were suffering from nausea, with green liquid dripping from their mouths and ears. Held in Hiroshima when the bomb hit, they had survived by jumping into a cesspool. Clearly, they were suffering from radiation disease, but no one at the time knew anything about it.

That night, as the pair screamed in pain in their cells—asking to be put out of their misery—the other Americans asked the Japanese doctors to do something. “Do something?” one of the doctors replied. “You tell me what to do. You caused this.” The two men died later that night.

Yet the death of American POWs was not acknowledged by the United States until the late 1970s. The Japanese have now added the names of the twelve dead soldiers to their official tally of those killed in the bombing (that's John Hantschel at above left), and mounted their photos in a museum photo gallery.

Three days after the Hiroshima blast, perhaps as many as a dozen Dutch POWs were killed in the bombing of Nagasaki. (See my new piece on U.S. ambassador Caroline Kennedy's meeting with survivors in Nagasaki.)  One American soldier there, a Navajo from New Mexico, survived in his cell.

Greg Mitchell's new book and e-book is Atomic Cover-Up: Two U.S. Soldiers, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, and The Greatest Movie Never Made.  E-mail: epic1934@aol.com   •

Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline TahoeBlue

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2016, 11:41:05 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha
Hibakusha (被爆者?) is the Japanese word for the surviving victims of the 1945 atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
...
During the 1970s, non-Japanese hibakusha who suffered from those atomic attacks began to demand the right for free medical care and the right to stay in Japan for that purpose. In 1978 the Japanese Supreme Court ruled that such persons were entitled to free medical care while staying in Japan.[7][8]
...
Korean survivors

During the war, Japan brought many Korean conscripts to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki to work as slaves. According to recent estimates, about 20,000 Koreans were killed in Hiroshima and about 2,000 died in Nagasaki. It is estimated that one in seven of the Hiroshima victims was of Korean ancestry.[9] For many years, Koreans had a difficult time fighting for recognition as atomic bomb victims and were denied health benefits. However, most issues have been addressed in recent years through lawsuits

Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline TahoeBlue

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2016, 11:48:53 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kieyoomia

Joe Kieyoomia (November 21, 1919 – February 17, 1997) was a Navajo soldier in New Mexico's 200th Coast Artillery unit who was captured by the Imperial Japanese Army after the fall of the Philippines in 1942 during World War II.

Kieyoomia was a POW in Nagasaki at the time of the atomic bombing but survived, reportedly having been shielded from the effects of the bomb by the concrete walls of his cell.[1]

The Japanese tried unsuccessfully to have him decode messages in the "Navajo Code" used by the United States Marine Corps, but although Kieyoomia understood Navajo, the messages sounded like nonsense to him because even though the code was based on the Navajo language, it was decipherable only by individuals specifically trained in its usage.[1]

Kieyoomia is notable for having not only survived the Bataan death march and related internment and torture in a concentration camp, but also being a hibakusha (survivor of an atomic bomb blast).

...
Initially tortured because his captors thought he was Japanese-American (and therefore a traitor), Joe Kieyoomia suffered months of beatings before the Japanese accepted his claim to Navajo ancestry
...
After surviving the prison camps, the "hell ships" and the torture, Kieyoomia was a prisoner in Nagasaki when that city was the target of the second atomic bomb dropped by the U.S. Army Air Forces (USAAF).

Kieyoomia survived the attack saying he was protected by the concrete walls of his cell. After 3½ years as a prisoner of war, he was abandoned for three days after the bombing, but says a Japanese officer finally freed him. He returned to the United States.
...

| - - - -

http://findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=58264231
Joe Lee Kieyoomia



Birth:  Nov. 21, 1919
Death:  Feb. 17, 1997

Sergeant Joe Lee Kieyoomia was a Navajo soldier in New Mexico's 200th Coast Artillery unit who was captured by the Imperial Japanese Army after the fall of the Philippines in 1942 during World War II. Sergeant Kieyoomia was a Prisoner of War (POW) in Nagasaki at the time of the atomic bombing on the morning of August 9, 1945 but survived, he reportedly having been shielded from the effects of the atomic bomb by the concrete walls of his cell. 
...

Burial:
Memory Gardens of Farmington
Farmington
San Juan County
New Mexico, USA
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline chris jones

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2016, 10:14:57 AM »
  The face of war.

One ugly mucken nightmare...The reality of the Japanese military's cruelty, savagery, inhumane acts are evident!
   Off the map a tad...How did they create a mindset in the military sector, in short sheep dipped these guys. Hitler did this as well, Hitler youth..
   Allways ...I have tried to find the root cause.

But one reasoning;

Japanese propaganda during World War II - Wikipedia, the free ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Japanese_propaganda

Japanese propaganda during World War II was designed to assist the ruling government of ... After Japan's invasion of China, movie houses were among the first ... After the attack on Pearl Harbor, control tightened, aided by the patriotism of many ... Even prior to the war, military education treated science as a way to teach ...
Yuh, this is wiki and some folks don't like this as a reference, but doesn't it make you wonder how leaders can bend the minds of the masses to this extreme..
   
 
 
 

Offline Al Bundy

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2016, 01:21:57 PM »
  The face of war.

One ugly mucken nightmare...The reality of the Japanese military's cruelty, savagery, inhumane acts are evident!
   Off the map a tad...How did they create a mindset in the military sector, in short sheep dipped these guys. Hitler did this as well, Hitler youth..
   Allways ...I have tried to find the root cause.

But one reasoning;


Japanese propaganda during World War II - Wikipedia, the free ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Japanese_propaganda

Japanese propaganda during World War II was designed to assist the ruling government of ... After Japan's invasion of China, movie houses were among the first ... After the attack on Pearl Harbor, control tightened, aided by the patriotism of many ... Even prior to the war, military education treated science as a way to teach ...
Yuh, this is wiki and some folks don't like this as a reference, but doesn't it make you wonder how leaders can bend the minds of the masses to this extreme..
   
 
 
 

Chris, The truth is that the United States is dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to Japan's evil empire unconditionally surrendered to US, thus avoiding the mass deaths US troops in the possibly invasion of Japan.
However, the bombs were an American show of force for the Cold War.

Offline chris jones

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Re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2016, 05:26:40 PM »
Hi Al.
             The root cause of war and mass manipulation, your point is taken and I understand your opinion, However what I was aiming at is how did the emporor and his crew convince the japanese citizenry to rally up for the invasions.
             The common thread is the war and invasions  were based on Imperial expansion....
                   How did they fire up the citizens of japan to this fury..
I get the propaganda angle, movies, radio, etc........I simply can't get a conclusive basis simply directed to propaganda... The mindset of the people, was it generational, fear mongering, or as the they say it was simply imperial X.