the Temple Mount.,.

[Darlinglasher]

We know that a lot of Zionist Jews living in Israel are not by any means what we would call orthodox...
it also says in the Bible that the Jews would continue to not believe and not have a home until the end...

I am curious how you guys are viewing Israel in the light of biblical prophecy

Also, noow they are discussing the sale of the very holy Temple Mount...
...this is a big deal...

also...
ever wonder who those people who will be fatally wounded in the head and then rise again will be?

[Bossgator]

You ask of a very big, emotional topic! For Christianity, very relevant. Be prepared for this thread to be moved from here, so don't panic if you can't find it. Most likely it will end up in the Personal Beliefs stuff.

The Temple Mount is not being sold to my knowledge, but Olmert has authorized the Waqf full control, and banned access to Jews and Christians. Did you know that Jordan has oversite of the Temple Mount? They got that back a several years ago.

I have wondered if the Abomination of Desolation in the book of Revelations may in fact take place in the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa mosque, rather than a rebuilt temple. I realize it is an abomination to enter the Holiest of Holys as anything other than the High Priest, but consider nothing of the old Temple sits there, and what is considered an abomination to the Jews is the Dome and mosque right on top of Judaism's holiest site!

Ah, the Two Witnesses! Yes, they do all kinds of miracles and preaching then are killed and their bodies left in the streets, then are resurrected. That should stir things up just a tad! No clue who they are suppose to be, but some believe they are Elihjah and Enoch, both who did not die but were taken up.

[Darlinglasher]

Oh yeah.,. Elijah and Enoch....

thats right i remember hearing that too...



I wonder how far off we are, and
I can't help but feeling and knowing that what is going on now is so vastly historic that we cannot possibly know the breadth and the magnetude this close to it

[genraidar]

I think the Temple will be rebuilt. Israel became a country again. Everything is spelt out pretty clearly. However, the Jews of today are largely not real Jews, but false Jews as pointed out in Revelations chapter 3. Go read it yourself, they flat out say it.

However, there's a BIG problem with Christians supporting Israel. If you want to raise money for Israel that's your business, I disagree with their politics and involvement in conspiracies, however it is a nation state, so you have no right to take away its land now, it has been there long enough to be legitimate. The United States government has NO business in the Middle-East or with Israel, we should stop giving money to all countries because it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND THEREFORE ILLEGAL.

[cabaretvolterror]

front what i came across years ago, the vatican legally has the most to say about the temple mount... google those terms

[Bossgator]

While I do think the Desolation could be in the mosque, I lean more to agreeing that the Temple will be rebuilt. Of course there's the issue of what's on the Temple Mount now. Not a clue how the could rebuild with these mosques and the Dome there. I do remember an Israeli leader or maybe an army officer, I just don't remember exactly, they were asked about a new temple, and his response something like, "Maybe there will be an earthquake, who knows!"

What I do know is that those who want ot rebuild have been preparing for several years, and even have a school for teaching priests temple proceedures, and last I read, they have already made all the main vessels and such to be used in the temple services. The big question remains though, what about the Ark of the Covenant? The temple is not complete without it.

[TimeLady]

I really have no idea. I know that there are rabbis who have been trained/are being trained to be in there, as well as someone here in the United States who is breeding cattle to be sacrificed there.

In the end, part of it might end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. The other part, however, might be...

[Darlinglasher]

Yes i have heard about the cattle being bred, and also that the rabbis are in prep, and the temple is already being rebuilt.

The harlot vatican should have nothing to do with it.,
but i can't see them not spreading their claws into this.

[Kregener]

Nobody owns the Temple Mount except the state of Israel, rest assured.

Since biblical prophesy about the "end times" cannot be fulfilled without the Temple being re-built, take the destruction of the Dome of the Rock as a HUGE sign that you had better get yourself right with God.

[Bossgator]

Temple already being rebuilt? You know something the rest of the world doesn't? Maybe spritually speaking sure, but the actual building? Uh, no.

However, there is a group that several years ago had selected the cornerstone to be used, though I don't know if that group had any real authority to do so. Seems I remember that there has been actually 2 different groups that has done that.

[Darlinglasher]

it is totally being rebuilt.,. the steps are being made, that is

[Bossgator]

By all means, please provide the source of your info. This would be quite the important stuff.

[Dig]

By all means, please provide the source of your info. This would be quite the important stuff.

Yeah, sources, innuendo, a little bug whispered it?

Wazzup?

[Darlinglasher]

welll.,. my mom told me about the Sanhedrin rebuilding (the temple) some time ago.. she told me she had some video tapes documenting this..
then i searched online and found the "official" site
http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm   

they are gathering the vestiges and harps..
also the priesthood is being trained.

the name of the video was "ready to rebuild" by jimmy deyoung circa '92

[Dig]

welll.,. my mom told me about the Sanhedrin rebuilding (the temple) some time ago.. she told me she had some video tapes documenting this..
then i searched online and found the "official" site
http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm   

they are gathering the vestiges and harps..
also the priesthood is being trained.

the name of the video was "ready to rebuild" by jimmy deyoung circa '92

These f-rs have been playing the "we're rebuilding" crap for years.  All the religious jews are against it as it is a clear violation of the first 2 commandments by the lord himself.  All the muslims are against it for (I hope) obvious reasons.

Whenever they touch a pebble, like 20 news agencies go haywire.

I would like to see something a little more substantial.

[White Rose Sophie]

These f-rs have been playing the "we're rebuilding" crap for years.  All the religious jews are against it as it is a clear violation of the first 2 commandments by the lord himself.  All the muslims are against it for (I hope) obvious reasons.

Whenever they touch a pebble, like 20 news agencies go haywire.

I would like to see something a little more substantial.

The Temple will be rebuilt.  You can bet with confidence on that.

Why?

Cos the Masons want it rebuilt.

"Of all the objects which constitute the Masonic science of symbolism, the most important, the most cherished, by the Mason, and by far the most significant, is the Temple of Jerusalem. The spiritualizing of the Temple is the first, the most prominent and the most pervading, of all symbols of Freemasonry ... Take from Freemasonry its dependence on the Temple; leave out of its ritual all references to that sacred edifice, and to the legends and traditions connected with it, and the system itself would at once decay and die ... " ["Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry", by Albert Mackey, MD, 33º and Charles T. McClenachan, 33º, Revised Edition, by Edward L. Hawkins, 30º and William J. Hughan, 32º, Volume II, M-Z, published by The Masonic History Company, Chicago, New York, London, 1873, A.G. Mackey, 1927, by the Masonic History Company.]

Albert Mackey was a VERY IMPORTANT and revered Mason. As was Albert Pike who wrote "Morals and Dogma" which is a basic manual for all the 33 degrees of Masonry, and whose statue graces the Masonic Lodge in D.C.

(Just one quote from his book - " Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual or selfish souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo also, were inspired." [Morals and Dogma, p. 321)




OK - back to the Temple.

Another quotation:

"The traditions and romance of King Solomon's Temple are of great interest to everyone who reads the Bible. They are of transcendent importance to Masons. The Temple is the outstanding symbol in Masonry, and the legendary story of the building of the Temple is the fundamental basis of the Masonic rule and guide for conduct in life ... The cream of Masonic historical and philosophical writing has been drawn upon for his description of the Temple and its relation to Masonic ritual." [The Holy Bible: The Great Light In Masonry", King James Version, Temple Illustrated Edition, A.J. Holman Company, 1968, Forward entitled, "The Bible and King Solomon's Temple in Masonry", by John Wesley Kelchner].

And here's another quote:

"... In all the rich symbolism of Ancient Craft Masonry two symbols, or symbolic themes, predominate. One is the search for light; the other is the labor of building. The source of light is the Holy Bible, and the grand representation of the builder's art is King Solomon's Temple .... It was natural that imaginative stone Masons, long before the development of anything like our modern fraternity, should have felt a kinship with the great builders of all ages. It was natural also that they should have acknowledge a peculiar attraction for the most famous and glorious of all building enterprises, King Solomon's Temple and Citadel. Interest and attraction for the wonderful structure on Mt. Moriah have increased rather than diminished ... until today the Temple of Solomon is the spiritual home of every Mason." [Masonic Holy Bible, Temple Illustrated Edition, A.J. Holman Co., 1968, p. 11-14]

Oh - found another one by Mackey - They do LOVE that TEMPLE!!!! 

"The Freemasons have, at all events, seized with avidity the idea of representing in their symbolic language the interior and spiritual man by a material temple ... The great body of the Masonic Craft, looking only to this first Temple erected by the wisdom of King Solomon, make it the symbol of life; and as the great object of Masonry is the search after truth, they are directed to build up this temple as a fitting receptacle for truth ..." ["Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry", by Albert Mackey, MD, 33º and Charles T. McClenachan, 33º, Revised Edition, by Edward L. Hawkins, 30º and William J. Hughan, 32º, Volume II, M-Z, published by The Masonic History Company, Chicago, New York, London, 1873, A.G. Mackey, 1927, by the Masonic History Company, p. 774]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

Now, I KNOW what you are thinking.  How could they possibly rebuild the Temple with that Dome of the Rock in the way like that? 

One thing that most don't realize is that A high level Mason's first loyalty is to MASONRY....not any faith.  One might wear the "Christian" cloak, or the "Muslim" cloak, but their allegiance is to MASONRY first and foremost.

Well, since those Israelis and Palestinians keep trying to kill each other...imagine what would happen if the Dome of the Rock was blown up in a "terrorist" bombing?  YIKES!!!  Can you imagine the mess that would create  in such a volatile section of real estate?  Truly, Jerusalem has been the most fought over bit of land in the whole history of mankind!

(But then again, the Bible said it would become a 'cup of reeling' amongst the peoples.)

The only logical thing would be for the city of Jerusalem to come under "International Control"...wouldn't it?  Since the bloody people who live around it can't get along terribly well!!

Hmmm. Maybe as a UNESCO World Heritage Site? (then it would be under U.N. control - that's comforting, isn't it?

"Army Study Suggests U.S. Force of 20,000", by Rowan Scarborough, The Washington Times, April 5, 2002.

"The Bush administration says there are no active plans to put American peacekeepers between Palestinians and Israelis, but at least one internal military study says 20,000 well-armed troops would be needed. The Army's School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS), an elite training ground and think tank at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., produced the study last year. The 68-page paper tells how the major operation would be run the first year, with peacekeepers stationed in Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem and Nablus."

Well, we send peacekeepers elsewhere, don't we?

But why would we do that?

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/arafat-pope.htm

OH MY GOSH, WHO IS THAT?

 

[mikekey.com]

oh no, it's those crazy Zionist again.

[White Rose Sophie]

oh no, it's those crazy Zionist again.

THAT is why they are "Zionists".  To rebuild the beloved Temple.

Which dovetails rather cleanly with what the Bible says will happen.  But, it's all their 'own' idea, naturally.   

[Darlinglasher]

Sane-

I dont know what commandments you're reading, but the first two goes as thus:

do not worship any other God but me
Do not worship/build idols.

and the Sanhedrin are the Pharicees (spelling is wrong im sure).,.and they are the ones who are taking steps to rebuild.
you know the pharicees..the same stock and breed that crucified the Son of Man.
Now I don't exactly what they've done, all I know is that they are well on their way and are starting.
That is from what I've read/heard/seen anyhow.
And duh the muslims are against it.,. they're only stoning Jews in front of it / trying to bomb it.,. having hissy fits.. etc.


green eyed lady-

yeah the masons have motivation to build.,. but they, like any other satanic organization will want to mirror any thing of any value and pervert it for reasons that please their own god.
they take their monicker "masons" because of their clear fixation on solomons temple.,

[Dig]

OK here is the deal...

according to the Old Testament...

god is the only one who can allow the temple to be rebuilt, if you follow the zionist belief that you should jump start this process than you are defying the first 2 commandments.  you are not respecting gods word as the word, you are obeying a different god/human above god.  it is a total violation of the first 2 commandments and that is why everybody goes nutso whenever they actually try it.  zionists outside of the super elite do not realize that they are just pawns in a satanic game that includes wizards that have duped them into believing they can force the rapture/second oming.

[Dig]

The Temple will be rebuilt.  You can bet with confidence on that.

Why?

Cos the Masons want it rebuilt.

Yup and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with fear/destruction/control.

[Darlinglasher]

I have thought that too, Sane. I have not studied this enough to say any more than i have. In other words,  i do agree that there does exist those who believe they can usher these end time events by taking matters into their own hands. they are pawns.

[White Rose Sophie]

Yup and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with fear/destruction/control.

Actually to a Mason (the high level ones) Freemasonry IS a religion.

From Manly P Hall - another "Ubermason" and reportedly a close friend of FDR.

"The day has come when Fellow Craftsman must know and apply their knowledge.  The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion , which places the energy of the universe at their disposal.  Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly.  When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft.  The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy.  He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." [Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff , Forward by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd Degree, K.T., Illustrations by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd Degree, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, p. 48
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 In the Masonic Quiz Book, the candidate is asked this question:  "Who was Tubal Cain?"  Answer:  "He is the Vulcan of the pagans." [William P. Peterson, Editor, Masonic Quiz Book: "Ask Me Brother", Chicago, Illinois, Charles T. Power Company, 1950, p. 18, 88, 131, 213; also found in John Yarker, The Arcane Schools: A Review of their Origin and Antiquity: With a General History of Freemasonry and Its Relation to the Theosophic Scientific and Philosophic Mysteries, Belfast, Ireland, William Tait, 1909, p. 30; also found in A. R. Chambers, Editor, Questions and Answers, 1972, p. 237; also found in Malcom Duncan, Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry , New York, David McKay Company, Inc., n.d. 3rd Edition, p. 94.]

Hmmmm.  Vulcan?  Sound familiar? 

"Vulcan was a sun deity who was associated with fire, thunderbolts and light.  The festival in honor of him was called the Vulcania in which human sacrifices were offered." [Percival George Woodcock, Short Dictionary of Mythology, New York, Philosophical Library, p. 152].  "According to Diel, he bears a family relationship to the Christian devil." [J.E. Cirlot, translated by Jack Sage, A Dictionary of Symbols , New York, Dorset Press, 1991, p. 362].  "It is fascinating to know that he married Venus, another name for Lucifer or the devil ." [Woodcock, op. cit., p. 150-151;
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds suspiciously like a religion to me.  It's a throwback of the "Ancient Mystery" religions...from Babylon, Egypt, etc.  There's more than 1 reason why the Elites invaded Iraq.  One of the first antiquities they carted off was the Babylonian Talmud.

NEWS BRIEF: "U.S. Sent Special Forces To Search For Ancient Copy of Talmud", DEBKAfile, 8 May 2003.

"New York Times: A special US team (is seeking) a 7th century copy of Jewish Talmud underneath Iraqi intelligence command in Baghdad ... Search for ancient Talmud (collection of oral law interpreting Bible part of which is known as Babylonian Talmud completed in 6th century) was carried out by US WMD hunter unit MET Alpha teamed up with Chalabi’s Iraqi Congress."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It ain't just about power.  Well, earthly power anyway.

("And ye shall be as gods".....said the serpent.)

[Dig]

Actually to a Mason (the high level ones) Freemasonry IS a religion.

From Manly P Hall - another "Ubermason" and reportedly a close friend of FDR.

"The day has come when Fellow Craftsman must know and apply their knowledge.  The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion , which places the energy of the universe at their disposal.  Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly.  When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft.  The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy.  He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare." [Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff , Forward by Reynold E. Blight, 33rd Degree, K.T., Illustrations by J. Augustus Knapp, 32nd Degree, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, p. 48
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 In the Masonic Quiz Book, the candidate is asked this question:  "Who was Tubal Cain?"  Answer:  "He is the Vulcan of the pagans." [William P. Peterson, Editor, Masonic Quiz Book: "Ask Me Brother", Chicago, Illinois, Charles T. Power Company, 1950, p. 18, 88, 131, 213; also found in John Yarker, The Arcane Schools: A Review of their Origin and Antiquity: With a General History of Freemasonry and Its Relation to the Theosophic Scientific and Philosophic Mysteries, Belfast, Ireland, William Tait, 1909, p. 30; also found in A. R. Chambers, Editor, Questions and Answers, 1972, p. 237; also found in Malcom Duncan, Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry , New York, David McKay Company, Inc., n.d. 3rd Edition, p. 94.]

Hmmmm.  Vulcan?  Sound familiar? 

"Vulcan was a sun deity who was associated with fire, thunderbolts and light.  The festival in honor of him was called the Vulcania in which human sacrifices were offered." [Percival George Woodcock, Short Dictionary of Mythology, New York, Philosophical Library, p. 152].  "According to Diel, he bears a family relationship to the Christian devil." [J.E. Cirlot, translated by Jack Sage, A Dictionary of Symbols , New York, Dorset Press, 1991, p. 362].  "It is fascinating to know that he married Venus, another name for Lucifer or the devil ." [Woodcock, op. cit., p. 150-151;
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds suspiciously like a religion to me.  It's a throwback of the "Ancient Mystery" religions...from Babylon, Egypt, etc.  There's more than 1 reason why the Elites invaded Iraq.  One of the first antiquities they carted off was the Babylonian Talmud.

NEWS BRIEF: "U.S. Sent Special Forces To Search For Ancient Copy of Talmud", DEBKAfile, 8 May 2003.

"New York Times: A special US team (is seeking) a 7th century copy of Jewish Talmud underneath Iraqi intelligence command in Baghdad ... Search for ancient Talmud (collection of oral law interpreting Bible part of which is known as Babylonian Talmud completed in 6th century) was carried out by US WMD hunter unit MET Alpha teamed up with Chalabi’s Iraqi Congress."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It ain't just about power.  Well, earthly power anyway.

("And ye shall be as gods".....said the serpent.)

Sure it is a state sponsored religion, but just like other state sponsored religions it is controlled by elites to use fear, destruction, control rather than any actual spiritual beliefs to promote a huge population control on the Earth.  They convince the sub-elite that praying to "lucifer" gives them power and money and it does for a while until they find out they also have been suckered by scared old wizards behind curtains that make that crap up.  You should see how much fun they have talking about the evil Anton Lavay - he was an NWO pawn just like Falwell and Swaggart and Robertson.  These theatrical evangelists are used because they can gain a following not because they have any religious superiority. 

I am not saying evil does not exist, but a lot of it is used to intimidate and fill people with fear.  Do you think that the people in the highest control of bohemian grove believe that the hollowed out rack disney statue of Molech ios really a diety?  The whole show is used to put others in line and when used in combination with blackmail/intimidation/fear/mind control it may be the devil, but in actuality it is just some fake statue.

These guys have been doing it for over 3,000 years "...come to the side of the devil and you will get treasures...," it is another parlor trick where they control the rules and in the end, the sucker is left killing themselves with so much guilt.

[Cruise4]

Lucifer - Where did the word come from and what is its True Meaning

http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2005/11nov/lucifer.html

The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:

"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Listen to Isaiah - Chapter 14 (King James Version) from blueletterbible.org.

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."

Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,

"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...

How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."

Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".

So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words. When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 76:26 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah.

A Mormon apologist responds.

The author of The Polytheism Of The Bible And The Mystery Of Lucifer, F.T. DeAngelis, comments on this page as follows

"It seems minor, but - the actual term used in the Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah 14:12 (given that there is no ONE way of accurately transliterating) is Eo(u)s phoros, morning star/DAWN god of light.

Eos or Eous phoros [not Heos (as your website claims) or phos phorus (as a Christian website I visited shows)] - although there is a Greek term and English... phosphoro(u)s. Your [site] is pretty accurate.

The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but -- as a morning star -- juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology."


On a lighter note, Arthur Clarke, in his fictional book 2061 correctly uses the word "Lucifer". He uses it as a name for a new sun in the solar system which is correct since the new sun is a second 'morning star' of 'original' 'light-bearing' substance--not some evil being of religious mythology.

David Grinspoon comments on the historical aspects of the word as follows: "The origin of the Judeo-Christian Devil as an angel fallen from heaven into the depths of hell is mirrored in the descent of Venus from shining morning star to the darkness below. This underworld demon, still feared today by people in many parts of the world, is also called Lucifer, which was originally a Latin name for Venus as a morning star." (Venus Revealed p. 17) Actually, Grinspoon should just refer to the "Christian Devil" since the Jews never believed in such a creature and still don't to this day.

Article from: http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

[LadyIce]

They  say:

The greatest trick of the Devil is to convince everyone he does not exist.

The greatest accomplishment of the Devil is to convince everyone the Bible is not real.

[Cruise4]

But the pertinent bit is 'Who's they'?

[Darlinglasher]

Cruise,

so what then about the passages in the Old Testament referring to the great fall?

...when Satan and 1/3 of the angels fell from grace.

Or what happened to Job, when God allowed Satan to do horrible things to him?

what about those passages? Those cannot be confused with anything but a "primary" spiritual entity that is in opposition to God.

[Cruise4]

I haven't mentioned 'Satan'. Don't know what you are asking.

Hi grneyelady... Do you know about what else they carted off from Iraq, antiquity wise? I've also head there's some big dig going on by the US and its hidden by a huge wall they've built (or something)... and I've seen references to an Iraqi Stargate (possibly republican guard linked).

I'd like to hear more about this stuff if you have any info. Cheers!

[Darlinglasher]

Cruise- What do you mean you didn't say anything about Satan?
,.here, let me refresh your memory:

"So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine"

Also, you may be interested to know, if you don't already that
american troops are re-instituting rituals involving an old babylonian mystery school.. an owl god...

here is the article:   ( I will actually start a whole new topic devoted to this vein)

Mysterious ‘Ritual’ Performed By United States Military Forces In Babylon Raises Concerns Of Muslim And Russian Orthodox Religious Leaders

By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to her Russian Subscribers

Russian Intelligence Analysts are reporting today on a bizarre religious ritual being preformed by elements of the United States Military, including some of their top leaders, in the closed Military Zone of the ancient city of Babylon in the Iraqi War Zone.

Seen by Russian satellite photos taken of the areas around Babylon, these reports state that the Americans have constructed a nearly one kilometer circle around their massive excavation of Babylon of a ‘Feathered Serpent’ in an apparent ritual relating to the ‘ancient objects’ they are about to unearth and have stationed giant US Military Cargo aircraft to bring to the United States, and which they have apparently been waiting to do on the specific date of April 16th.

Upon the complaints of the Iraqi Government to the Americans for the destruction of Babylon the US Military remains to this day defiant, and as we can read as reported by the UK’s Independent News Service in their article titled "US colonel offers Iraq an apology of sorts for devastation of Babylon", and which says:

"In an act of at least partial contrition, an officer in charge of the US military occupation of Babylon in 2003 and 2004 has offered to make a formal apology for the destruction his troops wrought on the ancient site. Colonel John Coleman, former chief of staff for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq, said yesterday that if the head of the Iraqi antiquities board wanted an apology, "if it makes him feel good, we can certainly give him one".

[Darlinglasher]

Cruise- I found this link about the star gate:

http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-Paper2.htm 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/exopolitica/esp_exopolitics_R_1_07.htm

[White Rose Sophie]

Cruise- I found this link about the star gate:

http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-Paper2.htm 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/exopolitica/esp_exopolitics_R_1_07.htm

Very interesting - thanks for the links.  Have been doing a little research into Nephilim and this actually plays right into that.  What is also interesting is that other Bible Study site that I listed previously theorizes that there are actually 3 "earth Ages".......and that the creation accounts listed in Genesis actually describe 2 "creation" events.  The first, which was destroyed in a global flood (NOT Noah's flood - also described in Gilgamesh) and then the 2nd, which tells of the creation of Adam and Eve.  Who, (according to this site) were NOT the ancestors of all humanity, but who originated the redemptive bloodline of Jesus.  There had to have been other people on earth at the time, otherwise who would have killed "CAIN"?  Who did he marry?

What is also interesting is that IF this true, there could have been millions of years between the first 2 creations....which would certainly make the carbon dating of fossils, etc not at all in opposition to creation theory.

Another valid point one of the posters brings up is the transcribing of the Bible from manuscripts, etc - the scribes are the ones who added the punctuation.  In several instances in the New Testament alone, there are scriptures which  describe events with HUGE gaps in time in the same verse......the first part being a past event...the second part of the verse being an event in the future.
They also theorize that Noah's flood was not global in nature, but to those living in that area it would have seemed so - and that the purpose for said flood was that the 'redemptive' bloodline was in danger of becoming corrupted by the intermarriage of 'daughters of men' and Nephilim.   I've read several different books, etc that propose the view that Nephilim were/are fallen angels, but yet when I speak about this possibility to other Christians....they think I'm mad.  Listening to the "Bible AnswerMan" too much to even read what is in the Bible itself.  How, for instance, if angels are mere 'spirit beings'....could the men of Sodom and Gomorrah want to have sex with them?  How could Jacob have wrestled physically with one then? 

All throughout the Bible, the Israelites were given very strict commands regarding the sanctity of sex and marriage, not to marry 'foreign' wives, etc .....why was that? Hey, GOD created sex, why would he restrict it so? Some kind of  cosmic  killjoy?  Or could it have possibly been to preserve the DNA strain from which the Savior was to originate ......from corruption?  The Savior HAD to be pure and undefiled and without sin in ORDER to be an acceptable sacrifice for the rest of humanity. And AFTER the Savior was born and fulfilled his purpose...no such dictum applied as far as 'inter-marrying'......except that both parties to the marriage should be believers in HIM.  And even THEN , there is mercy in the event of that not being possible...(ie, when one becomes a believer after marriage)

What makes this all so interesting is that no one in past centuries would have known about DNA ....this has all been discovered in the last century.  In past history they just read "Thou shalt NOT", etc.etc in the Bible, but only NOW is there a logical reason for  "Thou shalt not".

Just makes sense that "Nephilim" were in the ancient world....and apparently are among us now. Most people discount such ideas (they'd rather believe that these superior beings are from space) because there is a spiritual element to them existing.  And therefore it's much easier to believe in E.T. than in a 'spiritual entity'. Some people only believe what they can 'see'.

[White Rose Sophie]

I haven't mentioned 'Satan'. Don't know what you are asking.

Hi grneyelady... Do you know about what else they carted off from Iraq, antiquity wise? I've also head there's some big dig going on by the US and its hidden by a huge wall they've built (or something)... and I've seen references to an Iraqi Stargate (possibly republican guard linked).

I'd like to hear more about this stuff if you have any info. Cheers!

Hi Cruise,

Still looking for the URL to the story on the Babylonian Talmud.  The first one I found had expired, so I'm looking at other sources.

About the Babylonian Talmud - most people (who realize that the whole Iraq WMD was a scam) still think the invasion was about oil.  Well, that was just a side perk, IMHO.  They wanted the TALMUD.  Why?  Because Illuminism/Masonic beliefs go back that far - and are based on the Babylonian Mysteries and Cabbala.

    "A study is needed to determine which came first, the Cabala or the Zohar, but we do know that they are the same, alleged to have existed from the time of Cain. It is apparent that the Talmud is steeped in the Cabala, and it is not the Torah which seems to get the Jews into trouble, but the Talmud ... Under the section of Cabala in the Jewish Encyclopedia, the six-pointed star is mentioned:

    'It stands to reason that the secrets of the theurgic Cabala are not lightly divulged; and yet the Testament of Solomon recently brought to light the whole system of conjuration of angels and demons by which the evil spirits were exorcised; even the magic sign or seal of King Solomon, known to the Medieval Jew as the Magen David, has been resurrected." ["The Six Pointed Star: Its Origin and Usage", by Dr. O.J. Graham, p. 16-17]


The Bible tells of Solomon's fall into idoltry (with the whole foreign wife gig) but I don't think most Christians understand just how FAR he fell.

"The Encyclopaeda Britannia identifies the six-pointed star as a 'magical sign' ... a protection against evil spirits ... It is only in Jewish sources that the interlaced triangles are called 'Shield of David', as non-Jewish sources call the symbol, the 'Seal of Solomon'. What Solomon left behind was not only the division of the twelve tribes of Israel, but evidence of his idolatry. His foreign wives led him into the worship of the goddess Astoreth, otherwise called 'Astarte' (meaning 'star'). The six-pointed star, or hexagram, which came to be called the 'Seal of Solomon' when King Solomon took it upon himself, was the chief article of this pagan worship." [Ibid., p. 21-22]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Babylonian Talmud is steeped in Cabbala, and is the basis for Zionism and NWO today.  Don't think so?

Ever heard of the "Noahide" laws? They were a centerpiece to the Babylonian Talmud:

    1. Thou shalt not engage in idol worship.
    2. Thou shalt not blaspheme God.
    3. Thou shalt not shed innocent blood of a human nor fetus nor ailing person who has a limited time to live.
    4. Thou shalt not engage in bestial, incestuous, adulterous, or homosexual relations nor commit...rape.
    5. Thou shalt not steal.
    6. Thou shalt establish laws and courts of law to administer these laws, including the death penalty for those who kill, administered only if there is one testifying eyewitness (Note: The Jewish Law, found in Deuteronomy 17:6, requires the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses before one can be executed. In fact, the last sentence of verse 6 specifically states, "...he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness". This should be our first clue that these seven Noahide Laws are nothing more than a clever counterfeit of God's Ten Commandments).
    7. Thou shalt not be cruel to animals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They don't sound very bad now, do they? 

 These seven supposed universal laws, according to the Encyclopedia Americana, p. 737, state that they are "a Jewish Talmudic designation for seven biblical laws given to Adam and to Noah before the revelation to Moses on Mt. Sinai and consequently, binding upon all mankind."

HOWEVER:

 The penalty for violating any of these Noahide Laws is spelled out on page 1192 of the Encyclopedia Judaica, "... violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noahide to capital punishment by decapitation."

 Wow, in other words, if one person steps forward to accuse a person of violating any one of these seven laws, that testimony alone would be enough to decapitate the accused. A person could be put to death for the flimsy accusation of being cruel to animals, and based on the lying testimony of one person!! Notice, there is no assumption of innocence until proven guilty, nor of the prosecution having to prove their case. No, on the accusation of one person, the accused may be legally decapitated.

And as the Talmud considers Jesus Christ to be a blasphemer.....any one who believed in Him as the Son of GOD and would also be guilty of blasphemy...and idolatry.  And subject to decapitation on the basis of ONE person's witness.

Ever read the book of Revelation?

[White Rose Sophie]

Oops, forgot something.

Kind of goes along with the whole Noahide thingy (and Zionism)

"Criticizing Israel will be a taboo in United States", The Balochistan Post, May 9, 2003.

"WASHINGTON: A new law being proposed by Republican senators will serve prohibit criticism of Israel on American college campuses. The police-state-style "thought control" legislation is to be introduced by third-ranking Republican member of the U.S. Senate, conservative Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania. His so-called 'ideological diversity' legislation suggests cutting federal funding for American colleges and universities if those institutions are found to be permitting professors, students and student organizations to openly criticize Israel, which Santorum considers to be an act of "anti-Semitism" ... Jewish organizations represented at the private meeting were the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of B'nai B'rith, the Zionist Organization of America, the American Jewish Committee and Hillel. Louis Goldstein, Deputy Assistant Secretary for the U.S. Department of Education, Office for Civil Rights, represented the U.S. President George Bush administration."

(Look at the date....2003)

[Cruise4]

Hi Guys, thanks for the links. I've been real pushed for time just lately and trying to absorb what you have posted. I'll get back to you.

Darlinglasher I see what you mean... I see the bible as possibly holding 'truth' but its substantially untrue, if you see what I mean. Its been concocted together. Lucifer, Satan, whatever. It may or may not mean anything. The issue is so clouded in historical re-writes no assured meaning can be ascribed to any of it for certain... in my opinion. Do the lines you quote refer to anything substantial? Maybe. Could Satan be the original word used? Maybe.

So we come from totally different approaches to this, with no resolution bar God or a suitable reperesentative telling me himself.

If this Stargate stuff is true, doesn't it piss you off we can't know about this stuff for their stupid reasons. I think DNA has been known about by some for centuries.

[White Rose Sophie]

Cruise,

so what then about the passages in the Old Testament referring to the great fall?

...when Satan and 1/3 of the angels fell from grace.

Or what happened to Job, when God allowed Satan to do horrible things to him?

what about those passages? Those cannot be confused with anything but a "primary" spiritual entity that is in opposition to God.

Indeed, the book of JOB is considered to be the oldest in the Bible - written even BEFORE Moses penned Genesis.  Interesting bit in there about "Leviathan" too.

[Darlinglasher]

green-

leviathan and what... behemoth?

[White Rose Sophie]

Hi Darling...or should I call you lasher?   

Leviathan is in the beginning of Chapter 41 of Job.  41:1-10

Behemoth is in Chapter 40....sounds distinctly like a Brontosaurus, doesn't it?   

[Darlinglasher]

I'd say so , Lady <;

I think one or the other (or both) are mentioned in Revelations too..

im not all certain of that tho

[Dig]

More Snake-God Ops

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=10963.0

"Snake God Operation"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4eWn4Q71Zo

So they want to have that normal change come and say it is manmade to have a planetary government to come and save us from the crisis.

Cause the truth is volcanoes blow up, glaciers suddenly form and in just a few years sea levels go up, they go down.  What are they talking about? They have to have an Earth with a stable climate...

Hey baby...

There isn't any stable climate. 

We are on a gigantic spaceship. 

A huge rock,

a molten rock

with little islands floating on top of lava. 

Oh yeah...

orbiting a gigantic nuclear furnace,

blasting out every type of radiation you can imagine.

"oh, we must make it stable"

IT ISN'T STABLE!

But that is the same witch doctor trick they learned 10,000 years ago, 7,000 years ago, 5,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago

they would tell them, because the priest would mark down the dates on the calender

it didn't matter if it was in Greece, or Mesopotamia, or Babylon, or the Aztec imans, the mayan culture before that

they would know when the eclipse was coming and they would say:

"you gotta serve us, do what we say

or the god..." the goblin god, the snake god, the titan, whoever it was

it was different for every group "...will eat the sun."

and it eats the sun, they all prostrate themselves before them and then worship them for another 30 years

till another thing happens and by then after they had seen four or five eclipses and the snake god

and the priests had the power to make the snake god spit it out,

it was over.

And they are just running a "snake-god" op on you as usual

and of course you will all fall directly for it and take your injections.