Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination

[GoodBush]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail




By Randi Kaye

KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.

Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.

Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.

"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."

Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.

"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.

[jkm1864]

Hahaha drinking Vodka and juicy juice so I have complaint because it all comes out ass backwards .....

[TruthHunter]

If this were true, then why don't we hear about Jews, Muslims, and others in the armed forces having problems? Why only this one atheist?

[TimeLady]

because don't you know, it's ok to hate atheists.

[mickswann]

because don't you know, it's ok to hate atheists.

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

I can't say that I hear about that many religious people losing their jobs, or being refused jobs in the first place, for their beliefs, in the US at least. It seems completely acceptable to do so to atheists. Some of the stories are truly terrifying, with one or two people actually being 'run out of town' when their neighbours discover that they are not believers.

I'm glad I don't live over there. I'd be lynched or burned in the first week.

[Kilika]

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

I can't say that I hear about that many religious people losing their jobs, or being refused jobs in the first place, for their beliefs, in the US at least. It seems completely acceptable to do so to atheists. Some of the stories are truly terrifying, with one or two people actually being 'run out of town' when their neighbours discover that they are not believers.

I'm glad I don't live over there. I'd be lynched or burned in the first week.

Nah, theres a lot of places where you wouldn't even be noticed, like NYC. You'd disappear among a sea of all kinds of people.

[hillbilly]

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

I can't say that I hear about that many religious people losing their jobs, or being refused jobs in the first place, for their beliefs, in the US at least. It seems completely acceptable to do so to atheists. Some of the stories are truly terrifying, with one or two people actually being 'run out of town' when their neighbours discover that they are not believers.

I'm glad I don't live over there. I'd be lynched or burned in the first week.

That's prolly cuz so many "religious" people are quiet in their faith.  There are plenty losing jobs & homes & worse.  What religion they are doesn't matter to tptb. 

Making noise over some poor atheist's problems is another diversionary tactic being used to further divide us, We the People. 

And while it sucks that this guy is having such problems....but I have to wonder how many folk he was preaching his newly-converted-atheism to..... those new to their faith (or lack thereof) are usually quite vocal....almost drunk on the (lack of) word.  There's always 2 sides, but I still think these particular issues are brought up over & over again to further divide us, period.

[dogmadestroyer]

That's prolly cuz so many "religious" people are quiet in their faith.

HAHAHAHAHAHA That just nullified the rest of your post.

[hillbilly]

HAHAHAHAHAHA That just nullified the rest of your post.

How so?


Example:  I know of 2 teachers who were laid off.  They did not preach or witness or evangelize at the schools where they one taught.  I know this because my child goes to the same school.  I also know they are religious because I happen to go to church with them. 

Neither one ever thought that their termination had anything to do with their faith.  Their termination had to do with economics.

So, again, how does that nullify my post? 

Please explain clearly & dumb it down nicely....I am just a hillbilly.

And I maintain that this is being used to divide us--We the People.

[pac522]

I am not so overly religious that I would ever prosecute someone for their non belief but I know that this old saying stands true, there are no Atheists in foxholes.

[dogmadestroyer]

Finding a devout Christian quiet in their faith is usually like finding a leprechaun. Sorry but when you have a group that 'knows' its only way is the right way it causes them to set themselves apart from everyone else. That goes for Atheists too by the way.. However, on the subject of christians, it is true that someone of that strong of faith will lose their friendly demeanor if they meet someone outside of their group. I have dealt with it many times. I've had people justify their lack of friendliness by the Bible saying they should not associate with people of ill morals or faith when I've said nothing more other than that I did not share their views when prodded. Sorry but I had to laugh from my own personal experiences with dower and judging people who claim to 'judge not lest ye be judged yourself'.

I doubt this thread in particular is being used to divide us, there has been a rise in spats between the very religious and people like mick and myself lately. This is just a post for all the threads claiming that christians are oppressed and such over very minor things..

As for those two teachers losing their jobs, is there any evidence that they were singled out because of their beliefs?? In North Carolina? From what you posted, it seems that it just happened as opposed to people who have had their bosses look at them with suspicion after finding they were atheists in Kansas(for example)..

[hillbilly]

Finding a devout Christian quiet in their faith is usually like finding a leprechaun.

LOLOL!  Ain't that the truth?  But seriously I am finding more & more Christians holding their faith close & not advertising it.  I do advertise my own faith in many ways.  One way is having a huge magnet on my car pronouncing it.  It is because of this same magnet that many different people come up to me & tell me how "brave" they think I am because of displaying it so proudly ( ), that I know many do not advertise their faith. 

Sorry but when you have a group that 'knows' its only way is the right way it causes them to set themselves apart from everyone else. That goes for Atheists too by the way..

And that is generalizing & collectivism.  There are a lot of Christians & atheists & others who do that all the time.  (personally, I like to think to each his.her own)

However, on the subject of christians, it is true that someone of that strong of faith will lose their friendly demeanor if they meet someone outside of their group. I have dealt with it many times. I've had people justify their lack of friendliness by the Bible saying they should not associate with people of ill morals or faith when I've said nothing more other than that I did not share their views when prodded. Sorry but I had to laugh from my own personal experiences with dower and judging people who claim to 'judge not lest ye be judged yourself'.

And because of my radically different (not standard) Christian beliefs I run into this frequently as well.  It really speaks to the character of the individual who lost their friendly demeanor, does it not?  I like to tell folk like that "Your character slip is showing"

I doubt this thread in particular is being used to divide us, there has been a rise in spats between the very religious and people like mick and myself lately. This is just a post for all the threads claiming that christians are oppressed and such over very minor things..

What I mean is that the entire article in the OP is simply one more way they (tptb) are striving to keep us divided.  Of course there has been a rise in spats.  That is what tptb are counting on.

As for those two teachers losing their jobs, is there any evidence that they were singled out because of their beliefs?? In North Carolina? From what you posted, it seems that it just happened as opposed to people who have had their bosses look at them with suspicion after finding they were atheists in Kansas(for example)..

Of course there is no evidence, I said that in my 2nd post in this thread.  Why people are losing their jobs has to do with money & the lack thereof, nothing more.

And aside from all that, there are many different parts of NC..... we are the Bible belt, but we are also a haven of sorts for all sorts of happy pagans.  Wilmington, Chapel Hill, Asheville..... I would not be surprised if there were all sort of accounts of religious discrimination --both against Christians & also against non-Christians--in those particular areas of the state.  The UNC system has a terrible reputation for discriminating against Christians, btw.  I personally know a professor who they would not give tenure to simply because he was a conservative Christian. 

Anyhoo....the whole point I was trying to make is the dividing of We the People, in as many different ways as tptb can think of, this being one of those ways.

[dogmadestroyer]

And because of my radically different (not standard) Christian beliefs I run into this frequently as well.  It really speaks to the character of the individual who lost their friendly demeanor, does it not?  I like to tell folk like that "Your character slip is showing"

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! That is my philosophy why I still wear some heavy metal shirts just going to the store on an odd day and not only gigs. On those days I act my most courteous and talkative. It is a little social experiment to me and utterly amazing to see people show their true colors as they don't want to talk to you checking out at the supermarket or on the street.

I think we're mostly in agreement here.

What I mean is that the entire article in the OP is simply one more way they (tptb) are striving to keep us divided.  Of course there has been a rise in spats.  That is what tptb are counting on.

Sure, the spats tend to ebb and flow mostly between longtime members here though. We invariably get into disagreements when someone from one side or another makes a remark someone doesn't like. Myself included. 

Of course there is no evidence, I said that in my 2nd post in this thread.  Why people are losing their jobs has to do with money & the lack thereof, nothing more.

And aside from all that, there are many different parts of NC..... we are the Bible belt, but we are also a haven of sorts for all sorts of happy pagans.  Wilmington, Chapel Hill, Asheville..... I would not be surprised if there were all sort of accounts of religious discrimination --both against Christians & also against non-Christians--in those particular areas of the state.  The UNC system has a terrible reputation for discriminating against Christians, btw.  I personally know a professor who they would not give tenure to simply because he was a conservative Christian. 

Anyhoo....the whole point I was trying to make is the dividing of We the People, in as many different ways as tptb can think of, this being one of those ways.

Cheers and welcome to the forum from the Northern Bible Belt. NYS is not New England as many people think... we can be Arkansas with snow too.

[hillbilly]

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! That is my philosophy why I still wear some heavy metal shirts just going to the store on an odd day and not only gigs. On those days I act my most courteous and talkative. It is a little social experiment to me and utterly amazing to see people show their true colors as they don't want to talk to you checking out at the supermarket or on the street.

HA!  I find it funny, myself.  We had some bikers visit our church one morning, they were just driving by & decided out lil church looked nice so they stopped to worship with us.  The faces in the congregation were PRICELESS!!  They ranged from fear to disgust to disbelief.  So someone in the congregation who was not filled with fear welcomed them...and it was able to serve as a lesson for many that day.  We all had a wonderful church service that morning. 

And I do my own social experiments, in more of a political arena, though.  I am involved in local politics & thoroughly enjoy making those so-called Christians seek the moral imperative.  I keep a genuine smile on my face as I make them spitting mad with frustration. 

Ah...those moments of joy are what keeps me pluggin along in this political mess.

I think we're mostly in agreement here.
Sure, the spats tend to ebb and flow mostly between longtime members here though. We invariably get into disagreements when someone from one side or another makes a remark someone doesn't like. Myself included. 

I'm a long time member of the official RP forum & also the unofficial RP forums..... It is a trend that is not isolated to this forum.  I've been concerned for some time now that tptb are cranking it up a notch... the division tactics, that is.  I'm also "hillbily" there too.

Cheers and welcome to the forum from the Northern Bible Belt. NYS is not New England as many people think... we can be Arkansas with snow too.

Well thank you kind sir.     I've been a non-posting member here for a while now.  Too much on my plate to get too deeply involved in posting, unfortunately.  And when school starts back up, I'll prolly be another idle poster once again.

Such is life.   

[TimeLady]

I am not so overly religious that I would ever prosecute someone for their non belief but I know that this old saying stands true, there are no Atheists in foxholes.

Like hell there're not. If you get bombed in a foxhole you either have God to blame or blind luck, and I believe more in blind luck than any god bombing someone for the lulz.

[pac522]

Like hell there're not. If you get bombed in a foxhole you either have God to blame or blind luck, and I believe more in blind luck than any god bombing someone for the lulz.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback. Facing your own mortality will put in you in the position of finding religion. It's kind of hard calculating blind luck while you're trying to stick your head between your legs to kiss your ass goodbye.

[TimeLady]

It's easy to play armchair quarterback. Facing your own mortality will put in you in the position of finding religion. It's kind of hard calculating blind luck while you're trying to stick your head between your legs to kiss your ass goodbye.

What I posted was exactly what was told to me by an ex-soldier who is an atheist.

[johnnyoi]

To be honest I was quite suprised to see that there are atheists in the military.     I thought it was "God's Army".

[TimeLady]

To be honest I was quite suprised to see that there are atheists in the military.     I thought it was "God's Army".

Hey, after all, Bush *did* proclaim a Crusade on Iraq!

[pac522]

What I posted was exactly what was told to me by an ex-soldier who is an atheist.

As have I. To each his own, I guess. This is precisely why I don't get involved in religious circle jerks.

[al0152]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail




By Randi Kaye

KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.

Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.

Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.

"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."

Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.

"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.

very interesting....

[GoodBush]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xZgvkCIZzA