NSA

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wvoutlaw2002

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NSA
« on: June 07, 2008, 05:29:56 PM »
Looks like starting with the recently-released Hardy Heron releases of Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based OSes, SELinux is now an optional install from Ubuntu's apt-based repositories.

I knew it. Once Ubuntu became popular and mainstream, the NSA would get their hands on it. I will be severely disappointed in Ubuntu if their next release - 8.10, code-named Intrepid Ibex - has SELinux built into the OS and makes it impossible to uninstall without borking the system. If that's the case, I'll just stick with Ubuntu 7.10.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SELinux

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardySELinux

Offline 70983

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 05:39:56 PM »
is there still time to get the non-tampered with version?

this is horrible timing for me because i am about to build a computer for the first time and wanted it to have Ubuntu
Ray McBerry for Governor of Georgia in 2010!  Reclaim the sovereignty of the States!

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Offline dogmadestroyer

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 05:43:52 PM »
Goddamn..... I'm not shocked but still...
“The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.”

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FearMonger 888: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRu80jgKzk

Offline Marcus W

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 06:27:01 PM »
Why should anything slip by the NSA in the times? Just be glad you're informed...
But still, the Internet has Echelon and what do you do without the Internet? No matter the OS...

Offline dogmadestroyer

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 06:33:05 PM »
^^ Exactly, that's why I don't mind using a mac half of the time. Linux will not protect you.
“The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.”

-Robert Anton Wilson

FearMonger 888: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRu80jgKzk

Offline LakeshoreBaby

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 08:32:21 PM »
Grow our own food.
Build our own house.
Write our own operating systems.

This is what it's coming to.

If the source code is open though, shouldn't we be able to tell if there are backdoors built in?
"The courts have consistently ruled that unless you claim your rights as a sovereign, you have none." Randall Kelton, Rule of Law  http://WTPRN.com 
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Offline Mukta

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 08:49:12 PM »
The SELinux package is OPTIONAL, you don't have to install it.  If it ever comes packaged with Ubuntu then you're free to use one of the other hundreds of Linux distributions.

Offline dogmadestroyer

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2008, 08:55:13 PM »
I have a question though now. Isn't SELinux now an open source project despite being developed for use with the NSA?
“The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.”

-Robert Anton Wilson

FearMonger 888: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRu80jgKzk

Offline LakeshoreBaby

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2008, 08:55:38 PM »
Quote
The SELinux package is OPTIONAL, you don't have to install it.  If it ever comes packaged with Ubuntu then you're free to use one of the other hundreds of Linux distributions.

I think though the goal of the NSA will be to have it in all distros of linux over the next ten years if it's something they are using to spy.
"The courts have consistently ruled that unless you claim your rights as a sovereign, you have none." Randall Kelton, Rule of Law  http://WTPRN.com 
My Claim of Right http://www.myspace.com/lakeshorebaby
Dees with Captions: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11122279@N04

Offline dogmadestroyer

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2008, 09:10:50 PM »
I think though the goal of the NSA will be to have it in all distros of linux over the next ten years if it's something they are using to spy.

That is a tall order though. That means that they're going to have to influence many OS projects to use their platform in their programming like QT or GTK etc. Due to Linux's decentralized nature I think that would be hard to pull off.

Still, isn't SELinux open source now?
“The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.”

-Robert Anton Wilson

FearMonger 888: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRu80jgKzk

Offline akston

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 09:23:29 PM »
@dogma

How will a blackbox Mac help? NSA keys would be in there for sure, same as the backdoors in the iPhone

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/hacked-iphone-n.html

stat·ism /ˈsteɪtɪzəm/
1. the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty.

statismwatch.ca - a media compilation and forum exposing statism and its roots from a Canadian perspective

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2008, 09:41:09 PM »
The SELinux package is OPTIONAL, you don't have to install it.  If it ever comes packaged with Ubuntu then you're free to use one of the other hundreds of Linux distributions.

But the mere fact that they're making it optional.........man...........

It probably won't be long until you'll have to use plain-jane Debian Etch or just create your own OS.

BTW 70983, you can still get the 7.10 release.

http://releases.ubuntu.com/7.10/
http://releases.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/gutsy/
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/7.10/release/

Offline chris jones

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2008, 09:53:51 PM »


I admit to being a real dummy when it comes to computers. So, I'm lost by all these technical terms.
But I'm a fooken cynic and have a feeling any computer can be tapped into, and that its been going on for some time.I've been wrong more times than I want to think about, but years back the gov had a flag and tag on the phone systems, seems to me computers were the next in line, hope I'm wrong.
Truth is I don't give one shiite for myself, I've been flaged and taged years ago.
But you folks could let me know what you think, appreciated.
CJ

Offline oshea.declan

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2008, 10:10:02 PM »
Give Sidux a try - http://sidux.com/ - It's based on Debian unstable but has an update manager to check first
it it's o.k. to upgrade your system - as it's based on unstable branch - this ensures your system won't become broken.
It has the KDE desktop environment and all the latest Debian kernel stacks to support wifi ..etc...
Having used it I have only two tips - 1) Pick a simple password during setup and change it once you set-up your keyboard preferences
post-install - I set-up a strong password first time and keyboard was wrong setting on first boot - made things awkward - pick X or something for password on setup - configure your keyboard post install - then set-up your proper passwords.
2) I found that external USB NTFS drives did not automount even though NTFS-3G is installed - you'll have to get used to mount and umount via Terminal command lines - not a big deal.

It's about as good a Debian distribution as your going to get besides Ubuntu and it's derivatives. ;)

Offline dogmadestroyer

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 10:33:57 PM »
@dogma

How will a blackbox Mac help? NSA keys would be in there for sure, same as the backdoors in the iPhone

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/hacked-iphone-n.html



I never said anything about a Mac helping. Go reread my post. Its the fact that I think they can break into a Linux box almost as easily that makes it that I don't care if I run a Mac half of the time.

Still, nobody has answered my question is SELinux not open source software now??? If so, people can scour the code for such backdoors. Granted the NSA has some of the best programmers on the planet but nobody is perfect.
“The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.”

-Robert Anton Wilson

FearMonger 888: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRu80jgKzk

Offline akston

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 11:04:10 PM »
Oh cool, sorry... not trying to pull a Linux fanboi or anything.

Perhaps it will come to this..


stat·ism /ˈsteɪtɪzəm/
1. the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty.

statismwatch.ca - a media compilation and forum exposing statism and its roots from a Canadian perspective

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 11:08:26 PM »
Oh cool, sorry... not trying to pull a Linux fanboi or anything.

Perhaps it will come to this..




In a way, that art reminds me of the box art for the Atari 2600 version of Berzerk. Won't be long before robotic drones run around and robotically speaking "Intruder alert! Intruder alert!", "Got the humanoid! Got the intruder!" and "Chicken! Fight like a robot!".  :lol:

Offline KI4BNC

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 11:19:00 PM »
I actually run PCLINUX 2007 and have good luck with it.I still have not put any anti virus software on it.as far as UBUNTU I have the 4.6 and the 6.4(?) and prefer the linux.So far it has not asked to download any plug-ins so...so far so good...
anyone using this OS besides me?
comments?
those that would give up a little liberty to obtain a little security,deserve neither and will lose both.

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2008, 11:49:16 PM »
I actually run PCLINUX 2007 and have good luck with it.I still have not put any anti virus software on it.as far as UBUNTU I have the 4.6 and the 6.4(?) and prefer the linux.So far it has not asked to download any plug-ins so...so far so good...
anyone using this OS besides me?
comments?

I might just move on to SAM Linux, as it's based on PCLinuxOS. I like Xfce better than GNOME and KDE, and SAM Linux uses Xfce.

But of course if PCLinuxOS ever reaches the popularity level that Ubuntu has, they will probably end up caving in to the NSA. Like I said, Big Brother goes after the popular tech stuff, all the while thinking of how they can use this technology to enslave the people.

My advice for the Ubuntu users? Stick with the pre-8.04 editions of Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based derivatives. A user of Ubuntu 8.04 could never know if or when SELinux could be a required installation the next time they use the Automatic Updates feature or install a cool must-have app. As long as SELinux is not added to the Ubuntu Feisty (7.04) and Ubuntu Gutsy (7.10) repositories before they reach their end-of-life periods, Ubuntu 7.04 and Ubuntu 7.10 should be free from NSA involvement. (Ubuntu 7.04 won't receive any updates after October 2008, and Ubuntu 7.10 won't receive any updates after April 2009. Of course that wouldn't stop some rogue hacker from building SELinux from source for 7.04 and 7.10 and passing off the Debian packages they created as something else such as a "cool" game.)

Offline liko

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2008, 07:37:11 AM »

Offline LakeshoreBaby

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2008, 09:49:41 AM »
I like Ubuntu Ultimate (on 1.8 now).  I like the music when it log's on, and the colors.  I'm a ditz. 
"The courts have consistently ruled that unless you claim your rights as a sovereign, you have none." Randall Kelton, Rule of Law  http://WTPRN.com 
My Claim of Right http://www.myspace.com/lakeshorebaby
Dees with Captions: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11122279@N04

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2008, 04:08:38 PM »

Still, nobody has answered my question is SELinux not open source software now??? If so, people can scour the code for such backdoors. Granted the NSA has some of the best programmers on the planet but nobody is perfect.

It's open source, but I'm pretty sure the NSA would be suspicious of those scouring the source code for backdoors.

Offline CaptBebops

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2008, 08:00:46 PM »
I see it is already installed here under Hardy.  Maybe it was one of those updates after the initial upgrade.  It looks like some of this stuff dates back to Ubuntu 3.   If it is open source seems to me someone could add code to show if anyone is probing.  It looks like it was added basically so the government could use Linux machines instead of having to purchase Windows licenses.  The government has had a history of desiring more than one source for their systems and Windows shouldn't be a choice.

Offline akston

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2008, 08:17:41 PM »
Methinks one of the gurus on this forum might do everyone a favor by posting some steps on how to 'clean' Ultimate/Regular Ubuntu of any questionable code. Pretty please?
stat·ism /ˈsteɪtɪzəm/
1. the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty.

statismwatch.ca - a media compilation and forum exposing statism and its roots from a Canadian perspective

Offline Femacamper

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2008, 09:00:13 PM »
Just look at the source code of SELinux (spyware equipped linux) bro.

Time for y'all to install Linux Mint.


wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2008, 12:15:35 AM »
I see it is already installed here under Hardy.  Maybe it was one of those updates after the initial upgrade.  It looks like some of this stuff dates back to Ubuntu 3.   If it is open source seems to me someone could add code to show if anyone is probing.  It looks like it was added basically so the government could use Linux machines instead of having to purchase Windows licenses.  The government has had a history of desiring more than one source for their systems and Windows shouldn't be a choice.


Would you send me some screenshots of the Synaptic Package Manager? I'm thinking about writing an article on my Wordpress blog about Ubuntu selling out to the NSA. Please PM me for my email address.

And you are saying that the SELinux installation was tied in to the updates downloaded through the Automatic Updates feature, right?

And to the person who suggested moving to Linux Mint: Keep in mind that Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu, and the upcoming Linux Mint 5 "Elyssa" will be based on Ubuntu Hardy, so even it could be subject to NSA/SELinux entanglements. But of course as with Ubuntu Hardy, you're not forced to update your system through Automatic Updates or MintUpdate.

But if Ubuntu is installing SELinux through Automatic Updates, then it's almost a foregone conclusion that SELinux will be built into Ubuntu 8.10 in October.

Offline Femacamper

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2008, 01:59:33 AM »
I hear that AppArmor is an alternative to SELinux. I wonder if they've sold out yet.

Offline oshea.declan

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2008, 08:52:34 AM »
Just an idea - I've installed SLAX on my laptop and it's greta !
I used the new version - got the USB memory stick version and put it on that.
Then with the Slax USB version I booted my computer to SLAX and formatted
my hard drive. In a terminal I used cfdisk to make a 15 GB linux partition SDA1
and a 23 GB linux partition SDA2 - then a 2GB SWAP partition SDA4.
Then in the Terminal I made an XFS file system in SDA1 and SDA2- like this:
#mkfs.xfs /dev/sda1

then change permissions on drives like this

#chmod a+w /dev/sda1

Then I copied the "SLAX" and "BOOT" folders from the USB stick to Partition 1 - SDA1

Then change directory to /dev/sda1/boot  and run liloinst.sh

This will make SLAX on SDA1 bootable and install LILO to MBR.
Don't forget to change ROOT password from the default "toor" like this:
#passwd

then set up a non-root user #adduser

I installed this yesterday and today I compiled Mplayer, QTparted for partitioning and Testdisk
for data recovery on it - all working perfectly.
You can find Slax Modules to install at: http://www.slax.org/modules.php

It's based on Slackware so you can compile many packages from source

There is also a Slax module which allows you to convert Debian packages to use in Slax. deb2lzm.

It is lightening Fast !!! on laptop and Everything works !!!

http://www.slax.org/

Offline oshea.declan

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2008, 05:42:10 PM »
Just an idea - I've installed SLAX on my laptop and it's great !


even better; http://wolvix.org/

shirteesdotnet

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2008, 05:56:45 PM »
What a shame because 8.04 Hardy Heron kicks some serious butt. Ive installed it on several systems and its found all the hardware that Gutsy couldnt find. I went into my synaptic and can see some things related to selinux are installed, but "selinux" itself is not installed. Looks like I need to educate myself on this real fast. Thanks for the heads up!

shirteesdotnet

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2008, 05:57:46 PM »
even better; http://wolvix.org/

I dont get it, it looks like a grey version of KDE.

Offline 70983

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2008, 06:00:31 PM »
can someone please tell me if ubuntu is still safe

or is it already compromisd

i dont understand all the tech jargon
Ray McBerry for Governor of Georgia in 2010!  Reclaim the sovereignty of the States!

http://www.georgiafirst.org

Youtube Channel:  http://www.youtube.com/user/RayMcBerry

He has many informative videos advocating his candidacy.

Offline CaptBebops

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2008, 06:26:11 PM »
The Ubuntu Synaptic Package manager under 8.04 shows only that libselinux is installed not SELinux itself.  I will see if I can determine what apps require it as these usually don't get installed unless something "depends" on it.  It likely it is something I don't even use so probably can uninstall it.  Ubuntu comes with a lot of stuff I don't use or use something I like better. 

As an aside, I don't know what they were thinking having Hardy install a Firefox beta as it has been the bane of many folks existence mainly due to the new PulseAudio library it is using for sound.  Firefox and Flash never did get along that well but before I upgraded to Hardy things were working somewhat okay.   So I will be uninstalling PulseAudio to see if that helps.  They also changed the way SAMBA works which has been a little annoying.
 

TheGoodFight1984

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2008, 06:28:49 PM »
can any of you guys help with some explanation for this? http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=43924.0 Might be nothing but it's bugging me.

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2008, 07:15:57 PM »
I dont get it, it looks like a grey version of KDE.

I can tell from the screenshots it uses Xfce 4.

Offline CaptBebops

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2008, 04:05:41 PM »
For dependencies, with the Synaptic Package Manager do a search for libselinux  and select  Look in: Dependencies.  I got quite a list including passwd, coreutils, cron, mount, nautilus, etc.  You can right click on these and select Properties to verify the list of dependencies.

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2008, 04:31:42 PM »
For dependencies, with the Synaptic Package Manager do a search for libselinux  and select  Look in: Dependencies.  I got quite a list including passwd, coreutils, cron, mount, nautilus, etc.  You can right click on these and select Properties to verify the list of dependencies.


Nautilus is Ubuntu's file manager, so SELinux definitely has the capability of spying and reporting on the contents of your home directory........that is if you allow SELinux/libselinux to be installed. Xubuntu uses the Thunar file manager, so I think Xubuntu at this time may be safe from the NSA.

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2008, 04:52:34 PM »
Okay. It looks like even Ubuntu Gutsy (7.10) is compromised. I took these screenshots of Synaptic Package Manager on Xubuntu 7.10.

http://i26.tinypic.com/2lvobj6.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/nvummb.jpg

And I checked to see what - if any - packages would be removed if I tried to uninstall libselinux1. It wanted to uninstall EVERYTHING.

So it's official. Ubuntu was already compromised long before Ubuntu 8.04 came out. I'll have to check Ubuntu Feisty to see if it's compromised as well. I'll probably check that by using Linux Mint 3.1 Celena.

wvoutlaw2002

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2008, 08:11:58 PM »
libselinux1 is also built into Ubuntu Feisty 7.04's Linux kernel. Noticed this by running Linux Mint 3.1 Celena (based on Ubuntu 7.04) as a live CD and doing a search for selinux in Synaptic.

Offline Femacamper

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Re: WTF? Ubuntu caving in to NSA's SELInux?!
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2008, 02:10:39 AM »
Damn...

Guess we're gonna have to find a non-NSA linux.