Separation of Church and the Truth Movement

[Byrne0ut]

Separation of Church and the Truth Movement.

By: Byrne0ut
Prison Planet Forum
May 8, 2008

   In this essay I am going to lay out my personal beliefs on how the truth movement should be conducted concerning religion and political philosophy.

   The members of the Truth movement hail from every corner of the United State, Europe, Australia, and the rest of the world.  Each member comes from their own distinct culture and was raised with a certain distinct set of moral and religious beliefs.  Members include Christians, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Agnostics, Deists (the prevailing beliefs of our founding fathers), and Atheists.  A more important component that makes up the Truth movement is that we are all free thinking individuals who believe in freedom and the restoration of our constitution, and it is because of this that for the most part we are able to look past the differences in religious beliefs that could in reality divide and conquer us.

   It is my firm belief that every individual has the right to practice or hold any beliefs they see fit, but it is also critically important to allow others in the movement to hold their own beliefs without becoming entangled in an argument. 

   We are not here to debate whether the universe was created due to a big bang 10 billion years ago, or whether it was created at the time the book of genesis was written.  It is in my opinion that these arguments only serve to distract people from the issues of us losing our freedom on a daily basis.  If this truth movement is to succeed and implement real change for the better we have to be able to stay focused on bringing to light the criminal actions of our corrupt politicians and business leaders who are attempting to control and monitor every aspect of our lives.

   The Truth movement has the ability to become a major driving force that will be able to bring about very important changes that this country needs if it wishes to return to the great nation it once was.  This will be impossible if we allow theological debates to enter the movement we risk losing all credibility as well as having the movement crumble from within.  If we sincerely wish to make change in this world and restore national sovereignty it is imperative that we display a united front based on restoring the constitution, dismantling of the federal reserve and returning to a value based currency, repeal of all sections of the patriot act, as well as an independent investigation into the events that transpired on September 11, 2001.  If we allow our religious beliefs to enter into any of these discussions we will be doomed to failure.  The people of the United States and the world are open to hearing what we have to say, but if we start placing religious beliefs on the uninformed sleeping masses they will shut us out completely and the movement will never have the ability to grow and take hold. 

   Atheists firmly believe that there is no god and we were put here through a serious of natural evolutional occurrences.  They are steadfast in these beliefs and it would serve no good trying to convince them otherwise.  On the other hand Catholics and Christians believe that God sent his only begotten son to earth to die for our sins and afford us everlasting eternal life in heaven.  It is impossible to try and convince them otherwise.  We have to respect each others beliefs and understand that no matter how hard we try we will never be able to change the others beliefs.  The issue of god becomes inflammatory and can only hurt the movement. 

   I hope nobody is interpreting this that I am anti-religion because that is not the case.  I embrace and strive to understand the beliefs of all the religious groups on the planet, but I do believe that for the good of all mankind religion must be kept as a personal preference.  If you find strength in Jesus that is wonderful, but you must remember not to try and force that belief on another because their beliefs are also firmly entrenched in their mind and it would serve no purpose other than distracting us from the prize of restoring our freedoms. 

   In conclusion religion is an important part of many people’s lives as well it should, but religion does not have a place in getting our freedoms back.  We have to stay focused and on message of restoring the constitution and reestablishing our republic as the founding fathers had intended.  As long as we are able to stand united in our beliefs and goals we will be able to educate the American people and the people of the world and pressure the criminals in charge to relinquish power and allow the power to return to we the people.   
   

[Livefreeordie]

You might want to send this to the directors of Zeitgeist, Jordan Maxwell and all the other so called truth movement / new age movement.

They started it, I'm only DEFENDING what they started. I didn't talk about Christ much in the 911 truth movement until all this Zeitgeist garbage came out so you might want to start e-mailing this thread to all who lit the powder-keg in the first place. 

Keep the stupid new age movement crap out of the 911 truth movement and I will be fine, other wise forget it.

Oh, and I hear Zeitgeist II is coming out in the Fall........................how wonderful.........................more garbage! 

And this post is NOT directed at you ByrneOut per say, just letting everyone know where I stand on this issue. Fine, lets keep it strictly 911 and NWO and truth movement, that's fine with me, we'll see how long that lasts these days.

[Sub-X]

Its not possible to keep religion out of the truth movement for the very reason Livefree provided,exclusion,exclusion,exclusion.Already"keep the new age stuff out of the truth movement"but in the last days as was said in the bible this would happen and look its happening".
Some believe this new age stuff and you already want to divide because its in conflict to your beliefs,where is the understanding towards people of different beliefs.You wonder why people don't want to read the bible because they see the results in their faces everyday for the reasons not to.

I see this myself on this site and no amount of verses from the bible is going to hide the fact that the hypocrisy is so clear,its laughable,intolerance,disrespect and belittlement that I have witnessed from so called Christians,theres a lot of preaching but very little tolerance.Livefree I think maybe you read that site you posted way too much friend,because this is exactly the same feeling I got when I read it.

[Livefreeordie]

Its not possible to keep religion out of the truth movement for the very reason Livefree provided,exclusion,exclusion,exclusion.Already"keep the new age stuff out of the truth movement"but in the last days as was said in the bible this would happen and look its happening".
Some believe this new age stuff and you already want to divide because its in conflict to your beliefs,where is the understanding towards people of different beliefs.You wonder why people don't want to read the bible because they see the results in their faces everyday for the reasons not to.

I see this myself on this site and no amount of verses from the bible is going to hide the fact that the hypocrisy is so clear,its laughable,intolerance,disrespect and belittlement that I have witnessed from so called Christians,theres a lot of preaching but very little tolerance.Livefree I think maybe you read that site you posted way too much friend,because this is exactly the same feeling I got when I read it.

Then don't read it, no one is twisting your arm. Like I said, I'm not the one who started this religious push into the truth movement, obviously someone else has the agenda here, not me, so lets not blame the Christians as usual. Sorry you don't like the site, most non believers don't like the truth so they do get offended. Jesus offended quite a few non believers when He was on the Earth, you probably wouldn't have liked Him either.

Thanks, but I'll stick with the Bible, you can keep whatever you believe, I'm not buying any of what you're selling.

The non believers always look at us Christians as hateful, no matter what, how sad.

 

This is NOT a hate site

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Miscellaneous/this_is_not_a_hate_site.htm

      We do NOT hate anyone here at Jesus-is-Savior.com; on the contrary, we LOVE people very much.   The whole purpose of this website is to HELP people.   We do not discriminate in any way.  We simply present the truth of God's Word and expose those who seek to distort, confuse, and rebel against the truth.

“And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.” (John 8:45)

“Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” (Galatians 4:16)

We do NOT discriminate against anyone.  We simply dish out the truth; if the shoe fits...wear it!  We do NOT hate anybody.  What we DO hate is sin and damnable heresies that ruin people’s lives and lead them into hell.

"The fear of the LORD is to HATE evil..." (Proverb 8:13

We do NOT hate the people who propagate these lies.  There is a BIG difference!  We do NOT hate the sinner, no not one.   No one hates sin any more than God; yet, He came and willingly sacrificed Himself upon a cross to pay for our sins.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:

What does the Bible say about hatred? 

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, HATRED, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”  (Galatians 5:19-21)

“Hatred” of people is a work of the flesh, it is Satanic.   Hatred is a natural characteristic for a “carnal man” who is living in sin.   However, hatred of people is not acceptable with God...it must go.   God wants us to be “spiritually minded.”  Notice that God stereotypes humanity in the following Scriptures:

“Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others.”

(Ephesians 2:2,3)

God describes humanity in two terms: "children of disobedience," and "children of wrath."   This is true of ALL people.  God is telling us that human nature is prone to disobey, prone to get angry.  If you don’t believe this, just step outside of your front door, it's a dog-eat-dog world out there (and eat-cat too!).

  "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned EVERY ONE to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6)

As believers upon the Lord Jesus Christ, we are NOT supposed to hate anyone.  As mentioned already, this is NOT a hate sight.  It is actually a "Love Site."  Our zeal for the Lord prompts us to contend for the faith and exercise our God-given religious freedom.  Our rights do not come from the Bill of Rights or the U.S. Constitution, they come from God Almighty.  The Constitution only outlines our rights.  We are born with certain inalienable rights.  One of these rights is the freedom of speech.  Mankind may take that right away from us, but God certainly does not.  We have a right to speak against the evils and corruption hurting our community.  As a matter of fact, God expects us to (in as much of a peaceable and proper manner as possible).  We mean no harm to anyone, nor do we seek to offend.  The truth may hurt, but it needs to be spoken!  The truth makes some people mad!  The truth offends most people!  Is it any wonder why God calls us “the children of disobedience?”

        “But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth…” (John 8:40)

If there is any hate my friend, it will not be from me.  Hopefully you will find this website a blessing and will benefit from it (as so many have).  If you are offended, so be it.  But please know that it was the truth that offended you, not us.  We are not trying to upset anyone, though the truth upsets some people.  We are only expressing our heart-felt beliefs.

It is our hope that you will “have mercy on us” as you browse over our site.  Surely with all of the truths on a site this large, something will rub you the wrong way.   We mean to offend no one; however, we make no apologies for standing up for the truth.  We simply want you to know that we do NOT enjoy upsetting people.   Nevertheless, we desire to proclaim the truth for God.

We praise God for our constitutional right to express our opinions.  This is our right.   Our purpose is NOT to attack people.   We are simply trying to expose false teachings and false religions that send men and women to hell by the thousands every hour.  We also expose many of the evils in society today that quite a few people are woefully ignorant about.

May I say, it’s ok to be angry!  Jesus became angry.  However, notice the next part of the verse we just read—“and sin not.”
 

  “Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath” (Ephesians 4:26) 

As an example: I hate abortion!  I think abortion is cold-blooded murder.   The exploiting of the less than 1% of incidents of rape and incest to justify abortion is insane.  No my friend, 99% of all abortions are simply the wicked deeds of irresponsible people.   HOWEVER, I don't hate anyone involved with abortion...not one bit.  I love them because God has commanded me to love all people.  Don’t you think that if God wanted to put an end to this mess, He could?   Of course God could!  And He will friend, in His own time.  I can't say much about blocking abortion clinics because I would jump right in front of the door if it were my child about to be murdered.  The Bible commands me to love my neighbor as myself (Leviticus 19:18).  If that were me about to be aborted, I would want someone to save my life!  Why have Americans stooped so low as to murder their own babies?  It is selfish wickedness.

The Scriptures teach, “Be ye angry, and sin not.”  There is a fine line between faith and foolishness.  We should be angered about abortion, day and night.  However, we must be careful to channel that anger through constructive channels which will prevent further abortions, not put us in prison.  The best way to fight abortion is at a local level.  Washington is too wicked and spiritually far gone to care anymore.  We can all SPEAK OUT against abortion, in an appropriate manner, as civilized people.   And we must speak out...

"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (psalm 94:16)

Anti-abortion signs are working great nationwide.  Thousands of babies have been spared the tortuous death of abortion.  God bless the efforts of the folks at Repent America.

We must pray for God to give our leaders wisdom.   We can pray for the evils in government to be exposed and for the bureaucratic criminals to be brought to justice.  We can pressure our senators and government leaders.  We can rally in public.  We can do many good things to help, but we must not become hateful of the sinner. 

Howbeit, the best way to stop abortion is to hold up the posters of aborted pieces of children for expectant mothers to consider.

The wicked leaders and judges who have allowed the murder of millions of babies will give account to God, just as wicked King Herod had to give account for murdering thousands of children in an attempt to kill Jesus.

There are many religious “nuts” in the world.  As true believers, the Bible should create in us a “sound mind” (which is spoken of in the book of Second Timothy)…

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND.” (II Timothy 1:7).

"Sound" meaning "clear in thought."  We are to be level-headed while the world is going insane.  The world has become a large insane asylum friend.  If crazy people want to murder their children, we must NOT join the craziness.  No "sound" individual would take the life of their own child.  I have only used the issue of abortion as an example of how believers are supposed to behave themselves.  We are to HATE the sin, but not the sinner.

Unfortunately, it's getting to the place where Christians won't even be able to speak out anymore against sin if the heathen get their way.  I foresee the day when churches will lose their tax-exemption for speaking out against homosexuality.  The Bible says the day is coming when the wicked will kill believers, thinking they are doing God a favor. 

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." (John 16:2)

We read that evil men and seducers will become worse and worse...

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." (Jude 1:17-19)

"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." (2 Timothy 2:13)

  God’s people are to be peace-loving people…

“If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.” (Romans 12:18)

  God’s people are to be peaceful people… 

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)

Dr. John R. Rice wrote a book entitled, “I Am A Fundamentalist!”   In that book, there is a chapter called, “I am a fundamentalist, not a nut.”   There’s plenty of nuts in the world; God’s children should NOT be in that group.

So friend... having said all the above, I want to say once more — This is NOT a hate site, it is a LOVE site.

May God bless you friend and always remember,
 
GOD LOVES PEOPLE!!!

[Sub-X]

Give it up Livefree,you keep going on about the poor Christians,and on the other hand you want to exclude a group of fellow truthers just because there view point clashes with yours.
You keep referring to the "unbeliever",you don't know what I believe,you just assume because I disagree with you that I am an "unbeliever",how arrogant of you(is arrogance a sin ),and on cue the thumping begins.
I asked questions,I point to the contrary and like your friend from the site I am a Godless Reprobate . I see a pattern forming here,do you.
If God gave us the "gift of freethought" it is there for in accordance that I use it to the best of my ability,for the truth is what I seek and he gave has given me the gift to seek that truth.

[Livefreeordie]

If God gave us the "gift of freethought" it is there for in accordance that I use it to the best of my ability,for the truth is what I seek and he gave has given me the gift to seek that truth.

All that Prophecy I showed you in the Bible and you still won't believe, Man, how stubborn and ignorant you are. Ridiculous!!!

I never once condemned you nor said you are a reprobate, that's not my job. If you read God's Word, he already condemned you........oh wait, you don't like his book, I forgot so it must be a bunch of false fables, right?

God gave you a freewill to either accept his Son or reject, seems you have taken the latter so no wonder you don't like his Word because look what it says........................

John 14
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 10
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

You keep saying I don't know your religion...................clearly, you don't believe in Christ so lets nip this in the bud, it's getting a little ridiculous with this back and forth ball room dancing here. 

Hey, don't get mad at me, Jesus said it, I didn't.

We're not poor Christians, I feel sorry for the rest of you who think your self righteousness will get you in the kingdom of God, without the Blood of Christ, talk about playing with fire. There, I said it, you happy now? 

[GiveMeLiberty]

 

Hello, Livefreeordie. Think about the following statement you made:

I never once condemned you nor said you are a reprobate, that's not my job. If you read God's Word, he already condemned you.....

and this...

All that Prophecy I showed you in the Bible and you still won't believe, Man, how stubborn and ignorant you are. Ridiculous!!!

I'm just pointing out the contradictions in your statements. Peace out.

[Sub-X]

All that Prophecy I showed you in the Bible and you still won't believe,Man, how stubborn and ignorant you are. Ridiculous!!!

The bible proving the bible,again you give no other proof other than the bible,isn't that a very one sided argument

I never once condemned you nor said you are a reprobate, that's not my job. If you read God's Word, he already condemned you........oh wait, you don't like his book, I forgot so it must be a bunch of false fables, right?

You send me to a link,I read through it,the author calls a person with a genuine question a "Godless Reprobate",you must hold this stance also then as not once have you said that you don't fully agree with the authors view If you would like me to pull the other post and we will see that you showed me the same grace and respect for asking a question,you will see how untrue your above statement is.

You keep saying I don't know your religion...................clearly, you don't believe in Christ so lets nip this in the bud, it's getting a little ridiculous with this back and forth ball room dancing here.

What's ridiculous about it ,I think the back and forth is called debate,hows its getting ridiculous,I find this very dismissive and I wonder why ???Don't preach,then run away. 

Then the thumping continues and the assumption that I am a denier,unbeliever,Jesuit agent( I'm still laughing at that one  ),you see,you attacked me not for my beliefs,(because you still don't know what they are),but because I disagree and question yours.

We're not poor Christians, I feel sorry for the rest of you who think your self righteousness will get you in the kingdom of God, without the Blood of Christ, talk about playing with fire. There, I said it, you happy now?

Who's been self righteous You were whining earlier how Christians are always attacked,now your the "chosen people".If this the case why then do you feel the need to attack others that think differently than you,why do you feel the need to defend that which you belief to be the truth

Ill ask you another question,why aren't you living the bible to a tee,have you fasted in the desert for 40 days ,have you giving up your worldly possesions and go out preaching the word of God after what Jesus went through I think its the very least you could do.
Are you prepared to go out tonight pick up a homeless person and give them food,a bed and some human contact ,that would be a pretty selfless act,have you not done this already ,if not could you explain to me why

[GiveMeLiberty]

If you find strength in Jesus that is wonderful, but you must remember not to try and force that belief on another because their beliefs are also firmly entrenched in their mind and it would serve no purpose other than distracting us from the prize of restoring our freedoms. 

Very well-written article. However, with the above quote, it is easy to see that your message is directed in a biased fashion towards a specific group. If you wish for your message to be all-inclusive, then maybe you should direct your message at everyone, and not just direct it at those who "find strength in Jesus."

Also, to be honest, religion is very much a part of the discussion within the truth movement, since part of the equation of the NWO has religion, and perhaps the dismantling thereof, at its very core.

[Byrne0ut]

Very well-written article. However, with the above quote, it is easy to see that your message is directed in a biased fashion towards a specific group. If you wish for your message to be all-inclusive, then maybe you should direct your message at everyone, and not just direct it at those who "find strength in Jesus."

Also, to be honest, religion is very much a part of the discussion within the truth movement, since part of the equation of the NWO has religion, and perhaps the dismantling thereof, at its very core.

good points. I appreciate it.

[Livefreeordie]

Hello, Livefreeordie. Think about the following statement you made:

and this...

I'm just pointing out the contradictions in your statements. Peace out.

Calling him Stubborn and ignorant has nothing to do with being called a reprobate, which I never called him, he just put words in my mouth...........getting kind of used to that with this guy.

Contradictions? I see none whatsoever............I believe in the Bible 100%.................Sub doesn't believe in Christ as our Saviour...................I don't have to condemn him, God did in his book.......................if you don't believe in God's Holy Book, well, then don't, but that doesn't change the fact that it is FACT.

Peace out, Bro! 

[Livefreeordie]

The bible proving the bible,again you give no other proof other than the bible,isn't that a very one sided argument

You send me to a link,I read through it,the author calls a person with a genuine question a "Godless Reprobate",you must hold this stance also then as not once have you said that you don't fully agree with the authors view If you would like me to pull the other post and we will see that you showed me the same grace and respect for asking a question,you will see how untrue your above statement is.

What's ridiculous about it ,I think the back and forth is called debate,hows its getting ridiculous,I find this very dismissive and I wonder why ???Don't preach,then run away. 

Then the thumping continues and the assumption that I am a denier,unbeliever,Jesuit agent( I'm still laughing at that one  ),you see,you attacked me not for my beliefs,(because you still don't know what they are),but because I disagree and question yours.

Who's been self righteous You were whining earlier how Christians are always attacked,now your the "chosen people".If this the case why then do you feel the need to attack others that think differently than you,why do you feel the need to defend that which you belief to be the truth

Ill ask you another question,why aren't you living the bible to a tee,have you fasted in the desert for 40 days ,have you giving up your worldly possesions and go out preaching the word of God after what Jesus went through I think its the very least you could do.
Are you prepared to go out tonight pick up a homeless person and give them food,a bed and some human contact ,that would be a pretty selfless act,have you not done this already ,if not could you explain to me why

Try disproving the Bible first..........................guess what, you can't, so what exactly is there to debate about..............how your opinions are more reliable than God's Words? ROTFLMHO!!!!!! Ya, ok, sure. Like I said, try to disprove the Bible first, then we'll talk, oh mighty one. 

I wash my hands and kick the dust off my feet with you in this matter, you're like a straw blowing in the wind.

It's worthless arguing with you Sub, I'll just leave you with some more truth for you to ponder.

Some Things Were Not Meant to be Understood

    A man recently sent me a letter asking how I knew the Bible was God's Word.  He said that the Bible contained many contradictions that confused him.  A simple web search under "Alleged Bible Discrepancies" will provide hundreds of links to answer any skeptics questions.  Google alone provided 701 links.  Several excellent books have been written on this issue which will also show up in any web search under "Alleged Bible Discrepancies."  The problem is that a lot of people want to argue, they're belligerent.  They DON'T want to learn the Truth, they just want to argue what they believe.  I don't argue with people, I generally just send them Bible verses.  Let them argue with God.

The gentleman who wrote me also asked how Noah was able to provide Eucalyptus plants for the Koala's on the ark.  He also wanted to know why the tower of Babel was an issue when planes today fly much higher than the tower of Babel could have been built.  Then he asked where Cain got his wife.  I sent him the following Scripture...

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." -Titus 3:9-11

The word "subverted" simply means that he is destroyed of himself.  He is corrupted to the point where he is unreasonable.  You can't logic with him because he has become his own worst enemy.  The Word of God directs us NOT to answer questions which have no answer...

"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." -2nd Timothy 2:23

I don't try to answer questions that have no obvious answer.  The Apostle Paul clearly said that God has only provided us with a limited understanding, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" -1st Corinthians 13:12.  Too many believers try to answer questions which do not need to be answered.  I'm not going to try to figure out where Cain's wife came from.  Does it matter?  To the godless reprobate that is already biased against God's Word, you've got to prove everything to him or else he claims he won't believe.  The truth of the matter is that he wouldn't believe anyway even if you could prove it to him.  Abraham told the rich man in Hell concerning his brothers still living, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" -Luke 16:31.
     

What is Proof?

I get all sorts of letters from people wanting "proof" that the Bible is God's Word.  What is "proof."  Is it not relevant?  Proof is based upon evidence.  The evidence that I might consider as "proof" of something may not be enough evidence for you.  You can present the same evidence to 10 different people and they may not all except it as proof.  Hence, some people believed that the earth was round hundreds of years ago simply because Isaiah 40:22 said that it was (or because they saw that the moon was round).  Yet, there were also plenty of skeptics back then who adamantly proclaimed that they'd go to their graves believing that the earth was flat.  Everyone who believed the earth was flat was wrong, but they were sincerely wrong.  Likewise, many people today are sincerely wrong about the Word of God.  To me, the Word of God itself is proof enough that It is the eternal, inspired, infallible, incorruptible, preserved Word of God.  If it is not enough proof for you, then your fate is in your own hands.

I receive so many letters from people who want to argue over foolishness.  They don't really want to find the Truth of God's Word.  Arguing, like gossip, is a cheap form of entertainment for some people.  The Apostle Paul in this Scriptures we just read advises us to "reject" belligerent people who just want to argue foolishness.  By "Reject" Paul simply means that we shouldn't waste our time trying to convince someone who already has formed a biased opinion.  I receive many wonderful letters from people who need my help, and I always do my best to help them.  It's not that we should give up on anyone, but there are so many people who haven't heard the gospel that need our help.  Let us be productive for God and not allow Satan's critics to preoccupy our precious time which can be spent helping those who want to be helped.  Romans 10:15 reads, "...How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"  Notice that the Bible doesn't say it is beautiful to argue with people.  What is beautiful is the good news of Jesus Christ.  I have written an article concerning this which I hope you will read titled, The Simple Gospel.

We must all read the Bible for our self and then personally decide whether or not we believe It is God's Word.  There is NO magic bullet.  Either you believe the Bible is God's Word or you don't!  I believe 100%!

The Heart of the Matter...

     

To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible.[/color]

[Sub-X]

Calling him Stubborn and ignorant has nothing to do with being called a reprobate, which I never called him, he just put words in my mouth...........getting kind of used to that with this guy.

Contradictions? I see none whatsoever............I believe in the Bible 100%.................Sub doesn't believe in Christ as our Saviour...................I don't have to condemn him, God did in his book.......................if you don't believe in God's Holy Book, well, then don't, but that doesn't change the fact that it is FACT.

Peace out, Bro! 

Man you are truly talking crap now,you still don't know what i believe in but you will still assume and condemn based on me disagreeing with you,you still ignore certain points you have no answer,you call me troll(jesuit agent). 

Calling him Stubborn and ignorant has nothing to do with being called a reprobate, which I never called him, he just put words in my mouth...........getting kind of used to that with this guy.

I know you would really like me to go away because you cant seem to answer my questions and post after post you prove yourself to be "do as i say and not as i do".

Man you claim to be a Christian,yet you fail on the most basic concepts of your own religion,its not my fault you can not answer my question,on something you are so easy to preach and condemn others because they don't have the same belief as you.
I noticed you still haven't comment on the Godly King James and TREW LAW,this is what is pissin you off my friend,you don't have an answer so you insult me,call me a troll and claim you know what i believe in when clearly I have not giving you that information.You assume so much and know so very little.
Ill say it again Livefree with no malice or argument but you are the reason why people don't believe/turn away,because when you are questioned you don't have the answer so you try and dismiss me because of it.

Am I being stubborn but better believe it because you still haven't answered my questions,and if you read above I never said you called me "Godless Reprobate", i said you support the author of the site that referred to somebody with a genuine question as a Godless Reprobate so I am lead to believe this is also your stance as at no point have you said to don't agree with everything the authors says,so you must hold the same stance.   

Hypocrisy,disrespect and insulting,funny how you claim to be a Christian but have failed on this very simple and core fundamentals of your own religion.Why not answer my other question about why you are not living out the bible to the letter,you claim to be a Christian ,so whats your problem
Ah your only a Christian when it suits you 
How Christian of you to accuse me of being a jesuit agent because I  disagree with you.

Ill ask you another question,why aren't you living the bible to a tee,have you fasted in the desert for 40 days ,have you giving up your worldly possesions and go out preaching the word of God  after what Jesus went through I think its the very least you could do.
Are you prepared to go out tonight pick up a homeless person and give them food,a bed and some human contact ,that would be a pretty selfless act,have you not done this already ,if not could you explain to me why

Why don't you try and answer my above quote then

It's worthless arguing with you Sub, I'll just leave you with some more truth for you to ponder.

It is when you cant answer my questions and turn to insulting me. 


I rest my case 

[Livefreeordie]

Man you are truly talking crap now,you still don't know what i believe in but you will still assume and condemn based on me disagreeing with you,you still ignore certain points you have no answer,you call me troll(jesuit agent). 

Your questions aren't worth answering, you haven't disproved the Bible yet.

I called you a Jesuit, which if you had any common sense, you would have realized it was a joke, but there you go again, "the Christian is so bad and hateful, everyone grab stones and stone him!"   

It doesn't matter to me anymore what you believe, it's obvious all you want to do is argue.................so I'm done with you, do not respond to this post unless you want the last word, which I'm sure you will. 

Round and round we go............................when it ends, no one will know.

Good bye, Sub! 

[Sub-X]

Once more Godly King James and Trew Law,not worth answering or cant answer ,I will go with the latter.You asked me to prove the tyranny of King James and I didn't get an answer once i did.Thats not worth answering or you just can't answer it my friend
You callled me jesuit,not as a joke as you claim but because its a pure troll move,can't answer the questions so  you will try and mislead.

Who's arguing I was having a debate that seems to have gotten a little too much for you,hey you wanted to pour out your Christian propaganda but when I have genuine,reasonable questions could cant answer them
I'm sorry if you feel threatened by my questions,but you cant sit their on your high horse preaching the bible and then run away when you cant answer the questions.I was arguing at all,your the one thats being defence here.

Once again as Christian I find it ironic that you don't have any answer to the quote below

Ill ask you another question,why aren't you living the bible to a tee,have you fasted in the desert for 40 days ,have you giving
up your worldly possesions and go out preaching the word of God  after what Jesus went through I think its the very least you could do.
Are you prepared to go out tonight pick up a homeless person and give them food,a bed and some human contact ,that would be a pretty selfless act,have you not done this already ,if not could you explain to me why

If you don't want to debate me on your religion,maybe you should stop preaching it then,because you clearly can not answer legitimate questions

I will continue to respond to point out that you are a hypocrite,insulting and intolerant to others that disagree with your view point.You claim to be a Christian and I have proven other wise,wow thats got to hurt.

If you could answer the above quote,or the question on TREW LAW please,but you can't so I suppose it is round and round we go.

[GiveMeLiberty]

good points. I appreciate it.

Glad that you took my critique in a good fashion, as that was my intention. Let me expand on the point that I think maybe you are trying to get across. Using the truth movement as a platform to spread/promote your belief system or religion is possibly not the most effective way to spread truth to the multitudes.

That becomes tricky to those who are convinced that their religion/belief system is an absolute truth (without having definitive proof to back up their claims) and state it as such. [Hello again, Livefreeordie. ] This applies to Chistians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, and any other religious group I forgot to mention, and yes, atheism is a religion/belief system.

Avoiding the discussion or debate, however, is improbable. Besides, it's healthy and a great learning experience for those who will look beyond their own dogma to learn more about others' dogmas. The wise ones are never 100% set in their ways about that which is not definitively proven and always look to learn more.

Let me give you an example of trying to understand dogmas:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Livefreeordie, (not meaning to pick on you, and anyone is free to address the following as well)

What did Jesus mean in Revelations 22:16 when Jesus said that He is the morning star? Was Jesus an astrologer? Lucifer? Now, what did Albert Pike mean? Was Pike wrong, and if so, how so?

Here is Revelations quoted for reference:

Rev 22:13 - "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"
Rev 22:16 - "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Here's Pike's quote for reference:

"Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" - Morals and Dogma

[Livefreeordie]

Livefreeordie, (not meaning to pick on you, and anyone is free to address the following as well)

What did Jesus mean in Revelations 22:16 when Jesus said that He is the morning star? Was Jesus an astrologer? Lucifer? Now, what did Albert Pike mean? Was Pike wrong, and if so, how so?

Here is Revelations quoted for reference:

Rev 22:13 - "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last"
Rev 22:16 - "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Here's Pike's quote for reference:

"Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" - Morals and Dogma

Jesus Christ is the Morning Star, Lucifer in the NIV was translated morning star, but was that the proper translation? NO!

How is that possible when Jesus calls himself the Morning Star? Jesus is the Morning Star. How do I know this, because He said He was in Rev 22:16, that's good enough for me.

I'm not interested with what Pike has to say, He was a 33rd degree freemason.............nuff said on that.

[GiveMeLiberty]

Jesus Christ is the Morning Star, Lucifer in the NIV was translated morning star, but was that the proper translation? NO!

How is that possible when Jesus calls himself the Morning Star? Jesus is the Morning Star. How do I know this, because He said He was in Rev 22:16, that's good enough for me.

I'm not interested with what Pike has to say, He was a 33rd degree freemason.............nuff said on that.

I quoted above from KJV, so you must be refering to Isaiah 14:12;

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

My question to you then is, how can you be certain about the translation? What makes Lucifer equate to having the same meaning as the devil? Is Lucifer Satan, or is there mistranslation or misunderstanding? The following link talks more about this and the translations:

http://www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html

My point is, are you sure about what you say you're sure about? If you do not have definitive proof of what you say to be true, then how can you state it as fact, 100%? If it is your belief, then it is better to say it is your belief. I'm not suggesting to be ashamed of what you believe in where there's no definitive proof, nor am I suggesting that you should not share your belief, but I am saying that you should make it known that it is your belief, and treat it as such.

[GiveMeLiberty]

Also notice the following from Rev. 2:26-28;

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
[28] And I will give him the morning star.

If Jesus is the morning star, then according to the above passage, does that mean he will make someone else Jesus? or Lucifer? How many will keep Jesus's work to the end to become Jesus, or does morning star and/or Lucifer refer to something else? Could it be that Lucifer is not a single person/entity, but simply a title? And could it be that the Lucifer (or morning star) referred to in Isaiah is merely the title of the person/entity in reference, and not the name of that person/entity?

What do you believe about Lucifer and the translations now? Do you still think the KJV is 100% fact or do you see how what you infer is based on beliefs?

[Livefreeordie]

Also notice the following from Rev. 2:26-28;

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
[28] And I will give him the morning star.

If Jesus is the morning star, then according to the above passage, does that mean he will make someone else Jesus? or Lucifer? How many will keep Jesus's work to the end to become Jesus, or does morning star and/or Lucifer refer to something else? Could it be that Lucifer is not a single person/entity, but simply a title? And could it be that the Lucifer (or morning star) referred to in Isaiah is merely the title of the person/entity in reference, and not the name of that person/entity?

What do you believe about Lucifer and the translations now? Do you still think the KJV is 100% fact or do you see how what you infer is based on beliefs?

Notice it says.......even as I received of my Father, then it says...................And I will give him the morning star. I don't get your point here but, whatever.

The KJV is still, by far the best translation in the English speaking tongue, preserved Word of God, if you want to nit pick at the KJV, I can throw you a whole boat load of errors the modern versions have, like how King David did NOT Kill Goliath. You don't want to go there, do you?

Jesus said he is the Morning Star in Rev 22:16, what do you want from me, an essay on how Lucifer is Jesus or how it's a mistranslation?

you know what's more important than that, how how the modern versions take away from the deity of Christ, I think that is a little more important, don't you? Care to read Acts 8:37 for me? Why is the word sodomite missing and changed to male prostitutes? Or how about.............

The New International Version deletes over 64,000 words including words like: Godhead, regeneration, mercyseat, Calvary, remission, Jehovah, immutable, omnipotent, Comforter, Holy Ghost, Messiah, quickened, infallible, et cetera.  Most of the modern Bibles line up very closely with the NIV--and so does the New World Translation--the Bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult!

When you read below where I say that a verse is COMPLETELY deleted, I mean clean/bald-headed/gone/vanished deleted. For instance, if you search for Acts 8:37 in the NIV you will read,

    36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
    38And he ordered the chariot to stop. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Verse 37 is CLEAN, BALD-HEADED, GONE, VANISHED, MY FRIENDS (and it is a powerful verse)! Some foolish people have written me saying, "But it says something in the footnotes." I have three responses.

    (1) When you are reading your Bible do you look at the footnotes after every verse? Do you say "I am reading verse 3 so let me look below and see if something in verse 3 is missing."? Even if you did do that (which you don't) the footnotes say that the "best manuscripts" don't have the verse--will you then agree with them that the verse doesn't belong? If not, then why are you reading an NIV?

    (2) Not all the word deletions are found in the footnotes of the NIV so don't think for a second that they are letting you know all the changes they made.

    (3) The next logical step will be for the NIV to omit the footnotes and just reorder everything. In the example above verse 38 would become verse 37 so it wouldn't look funny. Look at the J.B. Phillips translation--that heretick didn't number the individual verses so you don't know what you're missing. It's paragraph style. The NIV may go that way too. They are desensitizing you to the changing of the very words of God. In summary, they'll either renumber or go to that paragraph format.


 Wait a minute, hold the presses! I got the following from Bill W. one of our dear readers:

    "I was in the Christian Book store today. I saw some thing that shocked me. I look through the Bibles often. I looked at the CHILDREN'S NIV. I looked up the missing verses and there was something I could not believe. I looked up Matt 17:21 and of course it is missing BUT in this Children's Bible it was typed out like this 20/21 and the 21st verse was still missing. They make you think that you read the 21st verse but it still is just the 20th verse! Can you believe it???!!! If you want to look for yourself find the CHILDREN'S NIrV BIBLE, and see for yourself. I did look in the other NIV's to see if they did the same thing. They DID NOT do that, BUT how long before they do??!"

They are already sneaking the deletions into the children's Bibles! This is the second time that I've heard of those foxes pulling one over on little helpless children. The other thing I've seen them do is retranslate the kids' and prisoners' Bibles to make them gender neutral. Of course those foxes didn't market them that way, they just snuck in the gender inclusivity. See this article for details.

Another update! I just opened the JW "Bible", the New World Translation (1961 ed.), and looked up all the verses that the NIV completely deletes. THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESS BIBLE DELETES THE EXACT SAME ONES!!!! I mean ALL of 'em! The only difference between the NIV and the New World Translation deletions is that the JW Bible does not include any footnotes! Isn't that what I said above, that the NIV would eventually delete the footnotes? To learn more about the Jehovah's Witnesses and their damnable doctrines go to our article on cults.

Our illiterate, lazy culture has spilled over to many professing Christians who have embraced the ways of the sluggard (and their want shall come upon them as an armed man). They are willing to read a Satanic "Bible" version missing what God says so they can be lazy and not do their due diligence. Your modern Bible perversion was written by men using dynamic equivalence. In other words, they are telling you their interpretation and their doctrine--NOT what the manuscripts really say. Don't believe me? Look at the article on the NIV using gender inclusive language. Gender inclusivity wasn't in the "originals"--it is a modern, feminist concept born of REBELLION.

A number of brothers and sisters, after examining the facts, have said, "I'm getting a King James!" Many have shared what a blessing the King James Bible has been to them and their spiritual life. The King James isn't hard. I've seen one and two year olds quoting it and I am not exaggerating. I've taught it to people who cannot read and to children whose second language is English. I actually find the modern Bibles more difficult to read than the King James.

If you read a modern Bible, don't let your pride get in the way of really looking at this information. Some people get hostile because I'm sharing these facts. Look up the verses and see that what you call the Bible is not the Bible. Get a real Bible. The King James conformable to the edition of 1611--NOT the New King James or the KJ21, etc. they are not King James Bibles.

WHOLE Bible verses deleted in the NIV

The following WHOLE verses have been removed in the NIV--whether in the text or footnotes...over 40 IN ALL!!!

Matthew 12:47 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

Matthew 21:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

Mark 7:16 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 9:46 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."

Mark 16:9-20 (all 12 verses) -- There is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 ed.) The Jehovah's Witness "Bible" also places the last 12 verses of Mark as an appendix of sorts.

Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Luke 22:44 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 22:43 -- removed in the footnotes

Luke 23:17 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)"

John 5:4 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."

John 7:53-8:11 -- removed in the footnotes

Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. It's deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Acts 15:34 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."

Acts 24:7 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"

Acts 28:29 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."

Romans 16:24 -- COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. What are you NIV readers missing?
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. In the NIV it says,

    "For there are three that testify:"

Compare the NIV reading with the following Jehovah's Witness reading--

    "For there are three witness bearers,"

What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the Godhead.  That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out.  They do not believe in the Godhead and they do not believe that Jesus is God.  Why does the NIV leave it out...?  Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible.  Reader, do you believe in the Godhead?  If so, then this deletion should offend you.

[Livefreeordie]

I quoted above from KJV, so you must be refering to Isaiah 14:12;

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

My question to you then is, how can you be certain about the translation? What makes Lucifer equate to having the same meaning as the devil? Is Lucifer Satan, or is there mistranslation or misunderstanding? The following link talks more about this and the translations:

http://www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html

My point is, are you sure about what you say you're sure about? If you do not have definitive proof of what you say to be true, then how can you state it as fact, 100%? If it is your belief, then it is better to say it is your belief. I'm not suggesting to be ashamed of what you believe in where there's no definitive proof, nor am I suggesting that you should not share your belief, but I am saying that you should make it known that it is your belief, and treat it as such.

First of all, I never said that Lucifer was Satan, that verse could be talking about the King of Babylon or it actually could have two meanings, it could be talking about The King of Babylon and Satan. How do you know it does not have two meanings?

Second, just because the NIV translates it Morning Star doesn't mean it is correct and guess what..............that isn't the right translation, it would be "'Light-bringer" or "Shining one" and that does not suggest that should be translated to Morning Star.

Third, I love how the modern version crowd loves nit picking these little verses and saying, "Look, your Bible has errors" when the modern perversions are endless with errors and changes and even WHOLE verses missing.

Can you show me in the NIV who killed Goliath please? Can you show me in Acts 8:37 what Philip said to the Enuch?

Can you show me in the NIV Isaiah 14:12 and Rev 22:16 and tell me who is the "Morning Star?" Who is the Morning Star in Isaiah 14:12, we know who is in Rev 22:16 but I'd like to know who is in Isaiah 14:12 please?

In Isaiah 14:12 the King James Holy Bible reads: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

The reason this passage is attacked by the modern bible version proponents is because the NASB, RSV, Holman Standard, NIV , St. Joseph New American Bible, Jerusalem Bible, and many others have translated this section in a VERY different way. Instead of, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER. . .", they say, "How you have fallen from heaven, O MORNING STAR. . ." or "DAY STAR"

There are several problems with the translation "O morning star", but first let me point out that there are as many opinions in Bible commentaries as to who or what is being referred to as there are bible versions. Some absolutely deny that it has anything to do with the fall of Satan. Others believe this passage refers to the king of Babylon, whom many identify as king Nebuchadnezzar; others believe it refers to Belshazzar, some say it speaks of the Antichrist, and others as the kingdom of Babylon itself.

Many others see Isaiah 14:12 as referring to the Satanic spiritual power behind the king and kingdom of Babylon. There is little agreement among scholars as to who or what is being addressed in this passage or how to translate it.

The problem with the translation, "MORNING STAR" (#1966- haylale), is that the words "morning" and "star" are not found here in ANY Hebrew text. (Morning is #1242- boker and star is #3556- kokawb)

The word for star IS found in verse 13, where it says: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." The two words, morning and star, are found together in Job 38:7, where God is asking Job in verse 4, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?. . . When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" This might be a reference to the angels who rejoiced at God's creation, or the "morning stars" that sang may well be an anthropomorphism of the first created literal stars "singing". God also describes mountains and hills as singing and trees of the field clapping their hands (See Isaiah 55:12).

Another serious problem with rendering this word (#1966 Haylale) as "morning star" is that Jesus Christ himself is called the morning star in Rev. 22:16 where he says: "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." The NIV and NASB make it possible to identify Satan with Jesus Christ. I believe this is Lucifer's ultimate game plan and that the new versions have taken a giant step forward in advancing Satan's deception.

In fact, if you take a look at the notes on Isaiah 14:12 in the Amplified bible (put out by the same people who gave us the NASB), you will find the following "explanation": "'Light-bringer' or 'Shining one' was originally translated Lucifer, but because of the association of that name with Satan it is not now used. Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is erroneous. Lucifer, the light-bringer is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word Phosphoros, which is used as a title of Christ in 2 Peter 1:19 and corresponds to the name 'bright Morning Star' in Revelation 22:16, which Jesus called Himself."

The word translated as Lucifer in the KJB occurs only once in the Hebrew, just as the word Lucifer occurs only once in the Holy Bible. It is a noun and it comes from a very interesting verb #1984 hawlal. This verb is used many times and has many very different meanings including: "to shine, to be foolish, to boast, to glory, to praise, and to be mad (insane or crazy)".

Isn't it interesting that Satan boasts and glories in his wisdom and power, wants to receive praise as god, shines as an angel of light to deceive, and his madness in wanting to be like the most High is ultimately the height of foolishness?

The reasons I believe the King James Bible reading of Lucifer is correct are many. First, if this passage is not referring to the fall of Satan, also known as the dragon, the old serpent, the devil, leviathan, Beelzebub, etc., then we have no account in Scripture as to how he, who was originally created by God as good, became what he is today.

In I Timothy 3:6 we are told that a bishop should not be a novice "lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." We are also told that Satan wishes to be worshipped. We see in the temptation in the wilderness that he came to Jesus Christ and said: "All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." Where are this desire to be like the most High God and the pride that resulted in his condemnation recorded in the Scriptures except here in Isaiah 14:12-15? The fall of Satan is not found anywhere else in the whole Bible except here.

Secondly, I disagree with those that argue that only the king of Babylon is being referred to in Isaiah 14:12 and not the fall of Satan. Many say it refers to king Nebuchadnezzar. A big problem with this view is that Nebuchadnezzar became a worshipper of the true God and his miraculous conversion is recorded in Daniel chapter 4. Nebuchadnezzar will not "be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit", but rather will be with the Lord Jesus Christ and his redeemed for all eternity. Praise God for his mercy. Another problem is that if the passage refers to an earthly king, then how did he get into heaven from whence he fell?

Thirdly, I and many others believe that Lucifer or Satan's fall is recorded here, and that he, the devil, was the real spiritual power behind the kingdom of Babylon. Babylon also appears prominently again in the book of Revelation as the kingdom of the beast and both are spiritually empowered by Satan and his devils.

David Guzik's commentary notes (Caps are mine): "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Here, the prophet identifies the king of Babylon as Lucifer, son of the morning. Some debate if Lucifer is a name or a title... The prophetic habit of speaking to both a near and a distant fulfillment, the prophet will sometimes speak more to the near or more to the distant. HERE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF ISAIAH SPEAKING MORE TO THE DISTANT, ULTIMATE FULFILLMENT. It is true that the king of literal Babylon shined brightly among the men of his day, and fell as hard and as completely as if a man were to fall from heaven. BUT THERE WAS A FAR MORE BRIGHTLY SHINING BEING WHO INHABITED HEAVE, AND FELL EVEN MORE DRAMATICALLY - THE KING OF SPRITUAL BABYLON, SATAN."

Commentator Dr. Henry M. Morris states: "Although the prophecy (in Isaiah 14) is directed toward the earthly king of Babylon, here it goes far beyond him (he could never fall from heaven) to the wicked spirit possessing his body and inspiring his actions. Just as Satan possessed and used the serpent's body in Eden, so he does here with Babylon's king..."

Smith's Bible Dictionary of 1901 says regarding the name Lucifer: "Its application, from St. Jerome downward, to Satan in his fall from heaven arises probably from the fact that the Babylonian empire is in Scripture represented as the type of tyrannical and self idolizing power, and especially connected with the empire of the Evil One in the Apocalypse."

Revelation 18:2 says: "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit...", and very significantly we read in Revelation 13: 1-2, "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having SEVEN HEADS and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a LION, and THE DRAGON GAVE HIM HIS POWER, and his seat, and great authority."

I understand this beast which has 7 heads and 10 horns to be a combination of the four world powers depicted in the book of Daniel, of which the king of Babylon was the lion and one of the 7 heads mentioned. In the book of Revelation we see that the dragon gave him his power. Satan himself is the spiritual power behind the kingdom of the beast and he finally gets the worship he has always wanted - "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast..." Revelation 13:4.

Fourthly, many Bible critics say Lucifer is a mistranslation of the Hebrew and that the KJB has been responsible for this misconception and confusion. It should be pointed out that the KJB is not the first or the only Bible version to so understand and translate this passage in Isaiah 14:12. All English Bibles before the KJB of 1611 also have the word Lucifer in them. This includes Matthew's Bible, Coverdale's, the Great Bible, Bishop's Bible, and the Geneva Bible.

Lucifer is also found in the Latin Vulgate, the Douay 1950 Catholic bible (though all later Catholic versions now agree with the NIV, NASB versions), Daniel Webster's 1833 translation and Darby's 1890 version. The Romanian Cornilescu Bible as well as the 1569 Spanish Sagradas Escrituras read Lucifer - "¡Cómo caíste del cielo, oh Lucifer, hijo de la mañana!" Lucifer is also the reading of the 2004 Spanish Reina Valera Gomez bible, that can be seen herehttp://www.reinavaleragomez.com/RVGhtml/index.html. It says: ¡Cómo caíste del cielo, oh Lucifer, hijo de la mañana! Cortado fuiste por tierra, tú que debilitabas las naciones." Lucifer is also the reading in the NKJV, the 21st Century KJV, and the Third Millenium Bible. 

[GiveMeLiberty]

Maybe you missed this at the link I provided above:

Notice in the original 1611 edition of the KJV, there is a marginal note for the words "O Lucifer". The marginal note reads "Or, O daystarre".

http://www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html

So, even the original KJV referenced Lucifer as the daystar of the morning.

And my point wasn't who has the better Bible (I go by the KJV, BTW) or to quiz you about what morning star means, but more my point was that much of what you infer is based on beliefs. My point was that it is better to differentiate fact from beliefs since each person has their own belief, but fact is fact. It's simply an easier (and possibly more peaceful) way of communicating and finding truth, while respecting each others beliefs.

[Livefreeordie]

Maybe you missed this at the link I provided above:


http://www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html

So, even the original KJV referenced Lucifer as the daystar of the morning.

And my point wasn't who has the better Bible (I go by the KJV, BTW) or to quiz you about what morning star means, but more my point was that much of what you infer is based on beliefs. My point was that it is better to differentiate fact from beliefs since each person has their own belief, but fact is fact. It's simply an easier (and possibly more peaceful) way of communicating and finding truth, while respecting each others beliefs.

My dear friend, daystar of the morning does NOT translate to Morning Star.

If Jesus Christ is called the Morning Star in Rev 22:16 and Isaiah 14:12 is talking about the King of Babylon or Satan then it cannot be translated Morning Star.......................IMPOSSIBLE!!!! I don't care what your link says dude, that would be a contradiction, and the NIV is wonderful at pulling wabbits out of their hats.

In fact, if you take a look at the notes on Isaiah 14:12 in the Amplified bible (put out by the same people who gave us the NASB), you will find the following "explanation": "'Light-bringer' or 'Shining one' was originally translated Lucifer, but because of the association of that name with Satan it is not now used. Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is erroneous. Lucifer, the light-bringer is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word Phosphoros, which is used as a title of Christ in 2 Peter 1:19 and corresponds to the name 'bright Morning Star' in Revelation 22:16, which Jesus called Himself."

The word translated as Lucifer in the KJB occurs only once in the Hebrew, just as the word Lucifer occurs only once in the Holy Bible. It is a noun and it comes from a very interesting verb #1984 hawlal. This verb is used many times and has many very different meanings including: "to shine, to be foolish, to boast, to glory, to praise, and to be mad (insane or crazy)".

[Livefreeordie]

Maybe you missed this at the link I provided above:


http://www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html

So, even the original KJV referenced Lucifer as the daystar of the morning.

And my point wasn't who has the better Bible (I go by the KJV, BTW) or to quiz you about what morning star means, but more my point was that much of what you infer is based on beliefs. My point was that it is better to differentiate fact from beliefs since each person has their own belief, but fact is fact. It's simply an easier (and possibly more peaceful) way of communicating and finding truth, while respecting each others beliefs.

Good, I'm glad you are KJV. In that picture you provided, it does not say daystar of the morning.......................it says O Lucifer, Sonne of the morning, I don't get where you see daystar of the morning, plus, it doesn't matter anyways.

Right, it says Jesus is the Morning Star, I believe what the Word of God says and it is my belief. As far as fact on this matter, you won't find it, what you will find are a bunch of different opinions and who knows what is correct or whatever. When you start getting 20 different opinions on something, best just to read it yourself and let the Holy Ghost try to help you with it.

We have a lot of OPINIONS when it comes to interpreting Scripture, that could lead to MEGA problems down the road. Scripture is a very hard read, if you haven't noticed, hence all the different opinions.

I'll give ya some truth, stick with the KJV, stay away from those modern perversions and you will be fine. There isn't any better translation in the English speaking language, not even close.

Modern Versions = copyright laws, which = the love of money and that there is the TRUTH! 

[GiveMeLiberty]

You know, it's not polite to quote someone and not even read what they say. It's also not polite to not read someone's link (twice) and then carry on to vaguely say the same thing that was in the information provided at the link, all while disregarding the main point that is trying to be conveyed.

Why do you plug your ears and shout in disagreement with people without even knowing what someone is telling you? It makes you look foolish.

[Livefreeordie]

You know, it's not polite to quote someone and not even read what they say. It's also not polite to not read someone's link (twice) and then carry on to vaguely say the same thing that was in the information provided at the link, all while disregarding the main point that is trying to be conveyed.

Why do you plug your ears and shout in disagreement with people without even knowing what someone is telling you? It makes you look foolish.

Listen, I read your posts, ok, daystar of the morning does not translate to Morning Star, I don't know if you're upset about that but it's all irrelevant, really, it is.

The King of Babylon and, or Satan is NOT the Morning Star....................that would be Jesus Christ.

Now, we could argue about this all night, but I got to go, don't let this bother you, it's not the end of the World.

God Bless!

[GiveMeLiberty]

Listen, I read your posts, ok, daystar of the morning does not translate to Morning Star, I don't know if you're upset about that but it's all irrelevant, really, it is.

OK, star of the morning is not the same thing as morning star? I see.

The King of Babylon and, or Satan is NOT the Morning Star....................that would be Jesus Christ.

And who or what is Jesus refering to when he states in Rev 2:26-28 that he will give the morning star to those who keep Jesus's works to give them power over the nations?

Now, we could argue about this all night, but I got to go, don't let this bother you, it's not the end of the World.

I'm sure you would argue all night, but alas you must go. Maybe you missed reading this, or just fail to see my point:

And my point wasn't who has the better Bible (I go by the KJV, BTW) or to quiz you about what morning star means, but more my point was that much of what you infer is based on beliefs. My point was that it is better to differentiate fact from beliefs since each person has their own belief, but fact is fact. It's simply an easier (and possibly more peaceful) way of communicating and finding truth, while respecting each others beliefs.

God Bless!

And may peace be with you.

[Livefreeordie]

And my point wasn't who has the better Bible (I go by the KJV, BTW) or to quiz you about what morning star means, but more my point was that much of what you infer is based on beliefs. My point was that it is better to differentiate fact from beliefs since each person has their own belief, but fact is fact. It's simply an easier (and possibly more peaceful) way of communicating and finding truth, while respecting each others beliefs.

Ok my friend, I see where you're going.

I do respect other people's beliefs, but also being a Christian I must preach the Gospel of Christ to them, other wise I'm not doing the will of the Father. If after that, they will not listen, I do not push the issue unless they start mocking me of my beliefs, which we have a couple here who have done that to me already.

I do not try to act like I'm better than anyone, or try to belittle anyone, unless they instigate which I have already stated, we will get some who will just to start an argument.

Now, I'm pretty sure you are a Christian, considering you read from the Bible, I'm not sure though, but being a Christian, I am to preach about Christ, I am commanded to by Christ Himself. I am not trying disrespect anyone else's beliefs or mock them, just as long as they respect my beliefs, which most Atheists or other beliefs don't, that's just the way it is.

Heck, I just started posting here about a couple of weeks ago and I found A LOT of threads started about mocking Christ, so it goes both ways, I'm not going to sit back and let people slam Jesus and not say anything about it, I would rather offend anyone here than offend Jesus Christ Himself, that's just the way it is. But I do respect other beliefs, just don't disrespect mine, 'cause I won't just back off, that is not my nature, sorry. 

Matthew 10:
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I would never deny Jesus before men, but after I've talked with them about Christ and they still did not care for Him, then I would back off.

All I can say is make sure you read the whole argument when I am interacting with someone, 'cause sometimes things aren't what they seem. Sometimes arguments start in one thread and end up in another thread.

Ok, really, this time, I'm out.

Peace!   

[GiveMeLiberty]

Excellent. Thanks for the discussion, Livefreeordie.

And I must confess that while my point was being shared with you, it is something that I realize that I have fallen short on, and is something that I must better myself with. So, even if nobody else learned anything new from our discussion, at least I did. Thanks for sharing your viewpoints, Livefreeordie, and you did succeed in sharing Jesus's teachings today, as you point out is instructed by His teachings.

[GiveMeLiberty]

BTW, I believe the Anti-christ (or Satan), is the fallen "morning star", like the Babylonian king mentioned in Isaiah 14, and like Nero, and like other immoral rulers of nations who wage evil against and oppress those who wish for good. I believe "Lucifer" is just a word that is misconstrued. I believe lucifer (or light-bearer) and morning star references a ruler who brings forth knowledge to others, and the morning star is the personification of that in physical (astrological) terms, which brings forth the light of a new day (venus is the brightest "star" which shines every morning in the eastern sky about an hour before sunrise). So then, a fallen morning star is a ruler who brings forth evil knowledge and therefore an evil dominion (kingdom) over others. It's symbolic terminolgy used here, so determining exactly what is meant is difficult, but at least that's what I believe it to mean.

[Livefreeordie]

BTW, I believe the Anti-christ (or Satan), is the fallen "morning star", like the Babylonian king mentioned in Isaiah 14, and like Nero, and like other immoral rulers of nations who wage evil against and oppress those who wish for good. I believe "Lucifer" is just a word that is misconstrued. I believe lucifer (or light-bearer) and morning star references a ruler who brings forth knowledge to others, and the morning star is the personification of that in physical (astrological) terms, which brings forth the light of a new day (venus is the brightest "star" which shines every morning in the eastern sky about an hour before sunrise). So then, a fallen morning star is a ruler who brings forth evil knowledge and therefore an evil dominion (kingdom) over others. It's symbolic terminolgy used here, so determining exactly what is meant is difficult, but at least that's what I believe it to mean.

That is a very good observation chief, can't argue with that.

One quick point is if that verse (Isaiah 14:12) is talking about King Nebuchadnezzar, if you read Daniel chapter 4, the king was saved, he is not going to hell, from my understanding. The Verse starts out saying "How art thou fallen from Heaven" and ends talking about being cast into the sides of the pit of Hell, now, how can an Earthly King fall out from Heaven? Well, that would be impossible, right? This is why I'm almost to the point where there is actually 2 meanings between verses 12-15, I believe Satan is the one being fallen out from Heaven, plus, Satan is the god of this world so he could easily be the Spiritual King of Babylon, but again, that is just my very humble opinion. it is a tough interpretation, but it's all good, the Lord keeps us on our toes in His Word.

2 Timothy 2
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Like I said, the Bible is a tough read, but it's not a book we're suppose to read once and put it down forever, that book needs to be picked up everyday and STUDIED, not just read. 

[GiveMeLiberty]

That is a very good observation chief, can't argue with that.

One quick point is if that verse (Isaiah 14:12) is talking about King Nebuchadnezzar, if you read Daniel chapter 4, the king was saved, he is not going to hell, from my understanding. The Verse starts out saying "How art thou fallen from Heaven" and ends talking about being cast into the sides of the pit of Hell, now, how can an Earthly King fall out from Heaven? Well, that would be impossible, right?

This is the same Babylon which included the Tower of Babel constructed to raise the Babylonian king into the heavens above God, so perhaps it is fitting that he would "fall from Heaven." I'm not sure which babylonian king would be referred to here, but it may not be Nebuchadnezzer. I don't know.

This is why I'm almost to the point where there is actually 2 meanings between verses 12-15, I believe Satan is the one being fallen out from Heaven, plus, Satan is the god of this world so he could easily be the Spiritual King of Babylon, but again, that is just my very humble opinion. it is a tough interpretation, but it's all good, the Lord keeps us on our toes in His Word.

2 Timothy 2
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Like I said, the Bible is a tough read, but it's not a book we're suppose to read once and put it down forever, that book needs to be picked up everyday and STUDIED, not just read. 

Good points, and I agree that there could be multiple meanings referenced in Isaiah. If Jesus spoke of His reincarnation, or second coming, then could that also be applied to the Anti-christ and would that make Isaiah's passage a reference to the Anti-christ? It's possible.

[aLLyOuRbAsE]

that was a great article, ByrneOut.

i agree that religion plays no part in this struggle against the NWO. religion is a personal belief, something that a few members of this board do not appear to understand. not only that, but the idea permeates that unless one's preferred chosen saviour is adopted then the fight against the NWO is in vain.

i myself am religious, but im certainly not going to talk about my religious beliefs here. the point i got from ByrneOut's excellent article was that there are many things that distract us, many differences in our opinions, but our strength and our victory will come from realising what we have in common.

[Byrne0ut]

that was a great article, ByrneOut.

i agree that religion plays no part in this struggle against the NWO. religion is a personal belief, something that a few members of this board do not appear to understand. not only that, but the idea permeates that unless one's preferred chosen saviour is adopted then the fight against the NWO is in vain.

i myself am religious, but im certainly not going to talk about my religious beliefs here. the point i got from ByrneOut's excellent article was that there are many things that distract us, many differences in our opinions, but our strength and our victory will come from realising what we have in common.

That is exactly what I was going for. If we are to succeed we can not allow these distractions invade the movement. 

[GiveMeLiberty]

That is exactly what I was going for. If we are to succeed we can not allow these distractions invade the movement. 

Let me apply your logic in a different fashion. What if people were to start calling for the seperation of Atheism and the truth movement? Would that be fair? All of these atheists are a distraction from the religious people who are spreading the message of truth and know, via their religion, about the truth and the NWO. Why do all of these atheists keep complaining about the message of truth and distracting, trying to tell people to stop talking about their religion? Shouldn't we seperate the truth movement from atheists?

Maybe we should seperate ourselves from muslims, too, and next let's seperate ourselves from the Hindu, and then after that we should seperate ourselves from Buddhists, and on and on. Is that what you mean by seperation of church and the truth movement? How do you expect religious people to react to the NWO's frontal assault on religion, and not talk about it? What is it that you want?

Would it be fair if I started complaing about an atheist for talking about atheism and how they're picked on for it while they're being constantly beat up by a bully for being atheist? Would that make sense to you? Shut up and take it you stupid atheist? Is that what would be fair?

What about the information provided by different religions on how to deal with the NWO and the forewarnings of the NWO? Should we not talk about that?

Your article was well-written, but it still makes no sense, and neither does the response you fished out to agree with whole-heartedly.

[dbell]

I've been part of at least one successful protest movement, the divestment movement in the 1980's to help achieve the end of apartheid in S. Africa.  I have been of countless other protest movements that went nowhere, generally because they lacked focus and because they were infiltrated by government and Communist Party (same thing) agents provocateurs  that caused them to fizzle out.  That is exactly what things like religion (Christian or New Age or whatever) and aliens can do to the 911 and NWO(Globalization) truth movement.

[GiveMeLiberty]

I've been part of at least one successful protest movement, the divestment movement in the 1980's to help achieve the end of apartheid in S. Africa.  I have been of countless other protest movements that went nowhere, generally because they lacked focus and because they were infiltrated by government and Communist Party (same thing) agents provocateurs  that caused them to fizzle out.  That is exactly what things like religion (Christian or New Age or whatever) and aliens can do to the 911 and NWO(Globalization) truth movement.

What it that is exactly what? You are comparing UFOlogists to religion? That's nice. And you are also comparing religion to Communist Party agent provocateurs? Wow, you're on a roll. Tell me more Mr. S. African apartheid hero. Did you save them by telling them to shut up about their religion? I didn't think so.

EDIT: I'll also guess that apartheid wasn't the result of anyone's religious beliefs and their religion wasn't under attack.

[dbell]

I'm no great hero, and I'm not telling anybody to shut up -- just to use their heads.

[aLLyOuRbAsE]

Let me apply your logic in a different fashion. What if people were to start calling for the seperation of Atheism and the truth movement? Would that be fair? All of these atheists are a distraction from the religious people who are spreading the message of truth and know, via their religion, about the truth and the NWO. Why do all of these atheists keep complaining about the message of truth and distracting, trying to tell people to stop talking about their religion? Shouldn't we seperate the truth movement from atheists?

Maybe we should seperate ourselves from muslims, too, and next let's seperate ourselves from the Hindu, and then after that we should seperate ourselves from Buddhists, and on and on. Is that what you mean by seperation of church and the truth movement? How do you expect religious people to react to the NWO's frontal assault on religion, and not talk about it? What is it that you want?

Would it be fair if I started complaing about an atheist for talking about atheism and how they're picked on for it while they're being constantly beat up by a bully for being atheist? Would that make sense to you? Shut up and take it you stupid atheist? Is that what would be fair?

What about the information provided by different religions on how to deal with the NWO and the forewarnings of the NWO? Should we not talk about that?

Your article was well-written, but it still makes no sense, and neither does the response you fished out to agree with whole-heartedly.

i think you may have mis-understood the point, GiveMeLiberty, if an athiest was going around saying there is no god and condemning religious people, that would be as bad as someone religious insisting there was a god, and that we ought to believe in that god to fight the nwo. i cant really think of any other way to explain that, religion is a personal belief, you believe in god is a personal belief every bit as not believing in god is a personal belief.

freedom allows for personal beliefs, live and let live, your rights protected.

[GiveMeLiberty]

I'm no great hero, and I'm not telling anybody to shut up -- just to use their heads.

Use their head how? You forgot to mention how people should use their head. You are just saying that people shouldn't talk about religion, you have not said anything about how people should use their head. You should use your head and make an actual point. So far, the only points you've made are:

1. You are an apartheid hero.
2. Religion is only a distraction.
3. Religious people are like people who believe in UFOs
4. Religious people are like government agent provacateurs.
5. Religious people are like the Communists.

When will you begin to make your point of how people should be using their heads? When will you be making your point of explaining how religion is merely a distraction? Atheism is a religion too, ya know. If you are an atheist, perhaps you shouldn't let your atheism distract movements.