Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?

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With regard to political economy, is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?

Yes. (Please explain)
No. (Please explain)

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Offline Geolibertarian

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Before answering the above poll question, please read the following...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School

Austrian School

The Austrian School is a school of economic thought that is based on the analysis of the purposeful actions of individuals (see methodological individualism).[1][2][3][4] It originated in late-19th and early-20th century Vienna with the work of Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Friedrich von Wieser, and others.[5] Current day economists working in this tradition are located in many different countries, but their work is referred to as Austrian economics.

Among the theoretical contributions of the early years of the Austrian School are the subjective theory of value, marginalism in price theory, and the formulation of the economic calculation problem, which have become accepted parts of mainstream economics.[6]

Many economists are critical of the current-day Austrian School and consider its rejection of econometrics, experimental economics, and aggregate macroeconomic analysis to be outside of mainstream economic theory, or "heterodox."[7][8][9][10] Austrians are likewise critical of mainstream economics.[11] Although the Austrian School has been considered heterodox since the late 1930s, it began to attract renewed academic and public interest starting in the 1970s.[12]

[Continued...]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxian_economics

Marxian economics

Marxian economics or the Marxian school of economics refers to a school of economic thought tracing its foundations to the critique of classical political economy first expounded upon by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Marxian economics refers to several different theories and includes multiple schools of thought which are sometimes opposed to each other, and in many cases Marxian analysis is used to complement or supplement other economic approaches.[1]

Marxian economics concerns itself variously with the analysis of crisis in capitalism, the role and distribution of the surplus product and surplus value in various types of economic systems, the nature and origin of economic value, the impact of class and class struggle on economic and political processes, and the process of economic evolution.

[Continued...]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesianism

Keynesian economics

Keynesian economics (/ˈkeɪnziən/ kayn-zee-ən; or Keynesianism) is the view that in the short run, especially during recessions, economic output is strongly influenced by aggregate demand (total spending in the economy). In the Keynesian view, aggregate demand does not necessarily equal the productive capacity of the economy; instead, it is influenced by a host of factors and sometimes behaves erratically, affecting production, employment, and inflation.[1]

The theories forming the basis of Keynesian economics were first presented by the British economist John Maynard Keynes in his book, The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, published in 1936, during the Great Depression. Keynes contrasted his approach to the aggregate supply-focused 'classical' economics that preceded his book. The interpretations of Keynes that followed are contentious and several schools of economic thought claim his legacy.

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

EvadingGrid

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 04:38:06 AM »
The world is complex

These dogmatic theories suppose that there is only ONE solution to "Life the Universe and Everything". This appeals to the less cerebraly endowed individuals desire to simplify a complex world into black and white, good and bad.

This simplistic thinking has of course been extensively debunked by the historical record.

The world is a complicated ever changing interconnected place, so while these simplistic theories can all have limited success as a "Jack of All Trades Solution" they are equally always doomed to be the wrong solution applied to the wrong problem.


Its time we became Adult, and stop forcing our Childish Desires onto the world.


Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 05:48:58 PM »
The world is a complicated ever changing interconnected place, so while these simplistic theories can all have limited success as a "Jack of All Trades Solution" they are equally always doomed to be the wrong solution applied to the wrong problem.

In other words, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 10:00:50 AM »
Just to clarify: as the banker-engineered depression grows worse, and as more and more individuals and families begin to feel the devastating effects of this depression in their own lives, eventually a critical mass of people will start doing what they would not have even thought of doing as recently as six years ago -- openly demanding that their representatives in government replace the bad economic policies that got us into this mess in the first place with policies designed to get us out of it.

It is at this point that rival schools of economic thought will try to satisfy this demand for public policy reform by attempting to convince the masses that the reforms which they advocate are the only true solution to this worsening crisis, and that the reforms proposed by their ideological adversaries will either give us more of the same or make the problem worse.

It is critically important, therefore, that people begin arming themselves now with as much in-depth knowledge as they can about these competing ideologies and schools of thought, lest they be conned by slogan-parroting snake-oil salesmen into cutting their own throats economically.

Hence this thread.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

EvadingGrid

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2013, 04:21:56 AM »
In other words, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Exactly, which is why I do not believe in Austrians, Keynesian, or any other ISIM.

I do acknowledge that under certain circumstances there ideas have some merit. For instance, in England everybody used to have access to Common Land, on which to keep a few animals. That does not mean that every square inch of land ought to be publicly owned. Neither do I think that every square inch ought to be in private ownership. Surely we ought to place use some common sense, and agree that some land ought to be in private hands, and some ought to be in public hands.

What happened historically, was that tenants got driven off rented land when it became more cost effective to keep sheep than people. They starved to death by the millions.... A perfect example of why it is not just a black and white debate about economics, and why free markets are the devils playground and not the answer to life the universe and everything.

Incidentally :

The answer to Life the Universe and Everything is 42.
 ;D


Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 05:58:33 PM »
In light of the discussion Alex had during the third hour of today's show with Dr. Russell Blaylock, I thought I'd bump this thread.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline 2Revolutions

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2013, 04:14:20 PM »
From the Nimmo article

"Pope Francis is playing to so-called progressives in America and Europe who believe wealth must be redistributed, in short confiscated from the producers at gunpoint and distributed to politically useful non-producers by government. In reality, the mega-wealthy, the financial elite on Wall Street and the City of London, never pay their “fair share” and are, in fact, the main driving force behind socialist confiscation schemes. Breadcrumbs are handed out to the poor and destitute under a bloated and bureaucratic system while the lion’s share is spirited away under a cover of darkness to a small minority."

My question is who are the producers that Kurt is referring to?  Are the producers the people in China and India who make goods for pennies and in horrendous sweatshop.  Are the producers the people who work at Amazon warehouses or Walmart that barely making a living?

Who are the non-producers?  The war-profiteers in the MIC which run child slave rings and were caught overbilling and performing substandard work in Iraq.  Isn't war the ultimate wealth transfer scheme? 

The rich that have stolen their wealth through illegal ponzi schemes and through government contracts and bailoutsw need to held accountable.   

Finally, I do not think that Austrianism economics is the solution to our problem.  The belief in this ominpotent free "market" will solve all our economic problems is not realistic to me.   
Those who wish to remain ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, want what never was and what never will be.  - Thomas Jefferson

EvadingGrid

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2013, 04:16:39 AM »
Finally, I do not think that Austrianism economics is the solution to our problem.  The belief in this ominpotent free "market" will solve all our economic problems is not realistic to me.  

Yup, Utopian belief in Free Markets is in essence no different from a Utopian belief in a Communist Society, sure the adherents argue that  IF we had such societies blah, blah, blah, BUT because they are Utopian they never ever will work out in practice.

It is odd, because although the Founding Fathers were dreamers, they was also Pragmatic Realists, so its easy to guess they would hold Austrian-ism with disdain.

Offline iamc2

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 06:33:15 PM »
Funny how things from down under come to the surface?

 Love the folks down under  8): But we all know the gov. is in the OUT BACK!  ;)
"When the Truth was murdered:
Common Sense ran away..."

EvadingGrid

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 11:10:12 AM »
Funny how things from down under come to the surface?

 Love the folks down under  8): But we all know the gov. is in the OUT BACK!  ;)

LOL

Offline Geniocrat

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How about Guernseyan economics where debt free money is spent into the economy via public work projects, roads/bridges/signs etc.   After the projects are done you leave the money in the economy to be spent.

If a business needs to take out a loan the banks cannot charge more than 5% interest.

If inflation occurs then the government raises taxes for a maximum of a quarter to contract the money supply accordingly.

When the population goes up 3% a year the money brought in from taxes can go to public work projects for repairs to old roads or build new roads to accommodate the newest 3%.

See the solution is not that hard folks for a vibrant flourishing economy.

It is explained all in the 3rd hour of Money-Masters.

EvadingGrid

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How about Guernseyan economics where debt free money is spent into the economy via public work projects, roads/bridges/signs etc.   After the projects are done you leave the money in the economy to be spent.

If a business needs to take out a loan the banks cannot charge more than 5% interest.

If inflation occurs then the government raises taxes for a maximum of a quarter to contract the money supply accordingly.

When the population goes up 3% a year the money brought in from taxes can go to public work projects for repairs to old roads or build new roads to accommodate the newest 3%.

See the solution is not that hard folks for a vibrant flourishing economy.

It is explained all in the 3rd hour of Money-Masters.

Sounds a lot better than wot we have now. You will of course offend the Austrians by mentioning Debt Free Money..., but in my book you get an A+

 ;D

Offline Geolibertarian

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Holy Moly: The Bizarre Online Cult Of Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 09:55:08 AM »
I'm no fan of BuzzFeed, which is why I rarely post articles from their site. But in this case I'll make an exception (in part because they don't even officially endorse its content) since I'm even less a fan of Stefan Molyneux. Perhaps after reading the following everyone will understand why. It isn't just the far "Left" that generates personality cults.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/pauliedoyle/holy-moly-wrn8

Holy Moly: The Bizarre Online Cult Of Stefan Molyneux

Misogynistic online cult personality Stefan Molyneux continues to grow in popularity. What exactly is he teaching people?

by PaulieDoyle
August 15, 2014

Like all cult personalities, Stefan Molyneux cuts a superficially charismatic figure. Tall, bald and smiley-faced, the increasingly popular 47 year old Canadian runs FreeDomain Radio, the world’s most popular philosophy podcast. He’s interviewed people like Noam Chomsky; he gives public talks about economics, and he’s even been fortunate enough to have Joe Rogan helplessly nod in agreement with him for 3 hours during a nauseatingly fawning encounter. A selfproclaimed libertarian anarchist, those who stumble across Molynuex will more than likely be greeted by videos in which he argues (poorly) for free-market solutions to the worlds woes: that everything, including law, justice and security, can be provided by an unregulated market system.

Fine. It’s just his point of view, and, agree or disagree with him, Molyneux’s online bloviating about a political system that’s never going to become a reality is at first seemingly innocuous. His followers are free to click, watch, agree, and tip their fedora in solidarity.

Behind this Youtube philosopher, however, is a growing cult of personality in which devout followers adhere to alarmingly absolutist (and widely discredited) teachings.

If, for some reason, Molyneux’s videos have spoken to you in a profound sense, and if you’re willing to donate 50 or more dollars a month to FreeDomain Radio, you can become one of its ‘Community’ members. These members are, for the most part, people who have fully committed to Molyneux’s teachings on ethics, philosophy and family. It is to these followers that Molyneux discusses and often endorses the appalling practice of ‘Defooing’.

‘Defooing’ - a term coined by Molyneux - is the practice of cutting any and all ties with ‘corrupting influences’ in one’s life. These corruptions can range from an immoral acquaintance to an abusive parent or spouse. In theory, defooing would be fine if Molyneux were merely advocating leaving abusive or unhealthy relationships; however it seems as far as Molyneux is concerned, virtually all friends and parents are corrupt and worthy of cutting ties with. In a 2005 essay in which he discussed his philosophy, he scathingly wrote

“So face it: your parents were bullies, or weak curriers of favour, or manipulative emotional infants themselves. You have no respect for them, for respect requires courage, and courage requires logical morality. You do not love them, since love demands virtue, and manipulating children into blind obedience is not at all virtuous.”

‘Defooing’ and practices similar are widely discredited by psychologists. Molyneux’s wife – a psychologist – was even accused of professional misconduct for advocating it to callers to the show. In fact, such is the damage people feel that Molyneux and his wife have done: there are three websites dedicated to warning people about the dangers of joining their online community.

“You’ll watch videos related to the topics that you’re interested in, whether its atheism, or whatever, and gradually he sort of bleeds in stuff about relationships and psychology” says Alex, a young woman who cut ties with her family at the behest of Molyneux. Although she has since reunited with her family, Molyneux’s teachings greatly damaged her life, causing her to drop out of her college major, quit her job, and cut all ties with her loved ones. “I was committed. I was a true believer”

Finding herself increasingly interested in Molyneux’ teachings, Alex became involved with the FDR community, eventually becoming a member of Molyneux’s inner-circle, a select group of ‘Philopher Kings’ who are in direct contact with the libertarian luminary. She and the others in this small group were even at times invited to Molyneux’s house.

“I was listening to the podcasts non-stop…I would listen to 6 or 7 a day. [After she eventually left the FDR community] I learned about later was this concept of’ information overload’ that happens in cults. Once you’ve absorbed a certain amount of information, you lose your critical faculties…so, you have these podcasts that are like, one, two, three hours long, and once you’ve absorbed all of these different tangents, he hits you with stuff that’s really, really radical. But, by that point, you’ve sort of been depleted of your resources to think about these things critically. That’s where the real shift starts to happen.”

At least consistent in applying their philosophy to themselves, both Molyneux and his wife have cut all ties with their respective families. His wife, who he often references on his show, had a relationship with her family until she met Molyneux and he convinced her that her childhood had not been happy at all. Alex’s experience was almost identical to that of Holy Molys first victim – Molyneux encouraging her to sever ties with her family and friends in the name of his absolutist conception of morality. “I listened to the podcast about confronting your family, and the different ways that you felt that they’d made mistakes when raising you. Very quickly I went towards the podcasts that were like, ‘Well, this is how they’re going to respond, and this is why, and this conversation is actually futile.’ And I went really quickly from that to defooing. I left my home in the middle of the night, moved in with my boyfriend, and just stopped responding to my parents. They were thinking of filing a missing persons report at the time.”

Once a successful young woman with a boyfriend, a job, and a college course, Alex soon found herself poor, alone, and miserable. “I had two conversations with Stef, one was about childhood, and the other was about how frightened I was to defoo. I didn’t really have a contingency plan.”

Two years after defooing, Alex still found herself living her life in search of the approval of the FDR cult. “I broke it off with my boyfriend. I had been getting the feeling that, Stef thought our relationship wasn’t healthy. It’s a very common thing that happens. And so, I broke it off, and was ready to become more deeply involved in the group, but here I was again, no job, no money, nothing. I was kind of in a state of catatonic depression for a while.”

In conjunction with deliberately isolating new members of his community - a practice that is commonly accepted as being a trait of cults - Molyneux also releases videos in which he discusses ‘the facts’ about popular or historical figures. The subjects of his scholarly ‘Truth About’s range from Abe Lincoln to Chelsea Manning.

These videos without fail advocate a free-market approach. In his critique of Lincoln, Molyneux argues that the American civil war – and indeed the problem of slavery – could have been solved if the southern states had been allowed to secede. Apparently, the north could have simply purchased all the captive laborers , and then promptly set them free. It didn’t seem to occur to him that the Confederacy may not have wanted to sell their sources of unlimited free labour, and that slavery remaining legal in the seceded south might still have been potentially problematic.

Unrelenting in his quest for poor taste, on the 28th of May - the day Maya Angelou died - Molyneux posted on his Facebook asking if he could be directed to any source materials regarding the authors life. Two days later, ‘The Truth about Maya Angelou’ was uploaded to YouTube; the only harsh truth revealed being the lack of research that goes into Molyneuxian exposés.

In his critiques, Molyneux almost without fail brings up traumatic events from the individual in questions childhood. He then uses these juvenile misadventures to explain what he regards as his subjects foibles. In making the childhoods of public figures he is criticizing central to their flaws, Molyneux is underhandedly reinforcing his other teachings about parenting and relationships. Everyone is flawed because of a bad childhood, and what is needed for the moral progress of the species is a year zero approach in which followers of Holy Moly cut all ties with past corruptions in their lives and begin anew.

As well as reinforcing his widely discredited views on relationships and family, these videos serve a very important function for the cult of Molyneux: in his demystifying and criticizing heroes of history and lore, he’s also tacitly adducing his own prestige to his followers. The philosopher king is slowly but surely discrediting people commonly accepted as moral heroes, all the while portraying himself as an ethical, economic and relationship guru.

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

EvadingGrid

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 08:32:44 AM »
In a word "No", because it is a fake alternative, it comes from the same puppet masters.

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 11:50:03 AM »
In a word "No", because it is a fake alternative, it comes from the same puppet masters.

As far as I'm concerned the only meaningful difference between the Marxist-dominated far Left and Austrian School-dominated far Right is that the former wraps IMF shock therapy in the flag of saving us all from the terrifying plague of carbon dioxide (i.e. plant food), whereas the latter wraps it in the flag of both "liberty" (i.e. the freedom to beg and grovel for "charity" the rest of one's life because there simply aren't enough jobs go to around) and "private property" (i.e. the freedom to be parasitically rent-gouged by a slumlord for the privilege of living in a hovel).
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

EvadingGrid

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 01:11:23 PM »
As far as I'm concerned the only meaningful difference between the Marxist-dominated far Left and Austrian School-dominated far Right is that the former wraps IMF shock therapy in the flag of saving us all from the terrifying plague of carbon dioxide (i.e. plant food), whereas the latter wraps it in the flag of both "liberty" (i.e. the freedom to beg and grovel for "charity" the rest of one's life because there simply aren't enough jobs go to around) and "private property" (i.e. the freedom to be parasitically rent-gouged by a slumlord for the privilege of living in a hovel).

For a peasant like me, neither flavour is palatable.

Both will enforce poverty and hardship ~ that is unnecessary and ideologically as sound as wet paper bag.

Both drive me nutz.
I sit here terrified of the next heating bill coming through the door, and finding somewhere cheap enough to live next. . .

Being told that its to "save the earth".
Being told that it is "exercising my freedom".

Both are not helpful, and could lead to violent injury  8)


Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Is Austrianism the "only" alternative to either Marxism or Keynesianism?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 04:14:07 PM »
For a peasant like me, neither flavour is palatable.

Both will enforce poverty and hardship

"Under capitalism man exploits man. And under communism it is just the reverse." -- John Kenneth Galbraith

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=232841.0 (Rothschild and Rockefeller interests created the Libertarian-Communist dialectic)
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0