Hugo Chavez munches coca leaf at meeting

[Sonja]

Im not buying Chavez any longer. Too many bad stories now, gone the way of all despotic socialist ego maniacs...

[jannerbob]

I am still a Chavez fan, big time, the way he has told USa/ UK and the large banks to back off is great. The stuff he says about Bush and imperialism and the stacked  global economic game mislabelled as neo-liberalism is also great.

I agree his latest reforms were too much too soon, however, he is only taking the country to something like pre Thatcher Britain, it is still very much mostly an economy built on private property and capitalism.
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For capitalism to work you have to undo some of the economic crimes first. This is the problem with the WTO/IMF/World Bank (apart from their plan to enslave the world of course) but they implement solutions without first righting previous injustices which were mostly won at the point of a gun or the assassination of a popular leader etc etc.

Nevertheless, I do hope he now slows down reform and allows the situation to settle for some time.

As for him being a bit of a dictator, sure but less so than fascista USA and let us face it, if he were not a bit tough the CIA would have the elites in Venezuela kick him out with force in about a month. He has no choice when standing up to such disgusting cold blooded hate.

His latest round of reforms also look like they could begin to tackle to Rothschilds owned central bank, he has certainly cut back their power although is some way from ending their influence on venezuala.

It will be interesting to see how his new "Bank of the South" develops, and how free it is from NWO control.

Yeah but your English Biggsy,you understand that socialism and communism are not the same thing.You understand that socialism and capitalism can walk hand in hand.Now the latest reforms Chavez wanted went to a referendum and the people voted against it.Even his own wife voted against him and he was magnanimous in defeat and accepted the will of his people.Us Brits can only dream of referendums on such trivial matters like the European constitution.Dictator?how the hell can Chavez be a dictator because dictators don,t ask their people a damn thing.His problem is he is trying to run before he has learned to walk.He might very well turn bad he would not be the first person to start off with good intentions and get blinded by power.As far as American perceptions think about Suharto who died this week.Brought to power by America,allowed his brutality and repression of his people,armed and funded by Americans and encouraged to invade East Timor and wipe out 25% of the population and kill 1/2 million of his own people.Yet he allowed American interests,he gave them their minerals and trade.He was a brutal evil dictator but nobody ever described him as such cos he was playing ball.Pol Pot was evil but Suharto was good.When you see American hypocracy in such clear black and white everything becomes clear.Now as of yet Chavez is not dragging dissenters off the street and stringing them up,he has not set up gulags where prisoners are tortured,he has not set up death squads or trained secret brutal police forces.Criticizing Chavez put into that context is laughable.People may not like his politics but everybody should respect Chavez the man.Of course there is corruption in Venezuela,theres even police corruption in Spain,cost me 50 quid on the spot for having a broken rear light and the git shoved the money in his pocket right in front of me.Thats not Chavez,s fault thats just human nature.Corruption is everywhere no worse place than the British parliament.Cash for questions,cash for peerages,cash for honours.It seems everybody is on the take.

[Biggs]

Dictator?how the hell can Chavez be a dictator because dictators don,t ask their people a damn thing.His problem is he is trying to run before he has learned to walk.He might very well turn bad he would not be the first person to start off with good intentions and get blinded by power.As far as American perceptions think about Suharto who died this week.Brought to power by America,allowed his brutality and repression of his people,armed and funded by Americans and encouraged to invade East Timor and wipe out 25% of the population and kill 1/2 million of his own people.Yet he allowed American interests,he gave them their minerals and trade.He was a brutal evil dictator but nobody ever described him as such cos he was playing ball.Pol Pot was evil but Suharto was good.When you see American hypocracy in such clear black and white everything becomes clear.Now as of yet Chavez is not dragging dissenters off the street and stringing them up,he has not set up gulags where prisoners are tortured,he has not set up death squads or trained secret brutal police forces.Criticizing Chavez put into that context is laughable.People may not like his politics but everybody should respect Chavez the man.Of course there is corruption in Venezuela,theres even police corruption in Spain,cost me 50 quid on the spot for having a broken rear light and the git shoved the money in his pocket right in front of me.Thats not Chavez,s fault thats just human nature.Corruption is everywhere no worse place than the British parliament.Cash for questions,cash for peerages,cash for honours.It seems everybody is on the take.

I agree he is trying to run before he can walk, I pray it is not the undoing of him. And yes Chavez does not have a gulag and torture people, nor does him bomb the crap out of them.

Agree Suharto was a disgusting human being, as sadly are far too many Members of Parliament in the UK, oh how my heart aches for the appalling state of my nation and the mind controlled masses.

[jeronimous]

LMFAO, The referendum was to validate his presidency for life. Just because it failed, it won't stop him. He rewrote the constitution single handedly to extend his reign until 2012. His term actually should have ended some time ago. Do you know how much the vote must have really been against him for him to "admit" a narrow defeat? Do you really think he'll step down in 2012? Do you really think there won't be massive election fraud to "re-elect" him then?

Americans, north, south and central know the difference between socialism and communism. Chavez is a communist. We know our hemisphere far better than the limey twits who are still trying to control us. Keep yourself and your totalitarianism surveillance state on your side of the pond "mate". Oh, how's that gov't. dental care working out for you? Haaahaaa....

As far as Chavez and his level of despotism... well, I can tell you this from the perspective of a venezuelan: before each of the last two elections a gang of colombian thugs came to my mother-in-law's door and asked her how she was going to vote and what her politics were. Of course, she said she was pro Chavez all the way. If she had said otherwise, she wouldn't be alive. You are talking to someone who actually has family there, k? Don't give me your damn propaganda and condescension. Oh, but you know better.   

[Info_Trafficker]

LMFAO, The referendum was to validate his presidency for life.

Wrong. The refferendum would just allow him to run for office after his term is over. Your pretty much repeating junk from CNN.

[jeronimous]

Wrong. The refferendum would just allow him to run for office after his term is over. Your pretty much repeating junk from CNN.

It's the same thing. If he can run, he will win via election fraud. I don't watch CNN. Sorry, nice try.

I actually came back to make a point about not so great britain and socialized health care. Again, I like to give real examples. I have a disease called ankylosing spondylitis. Here, my insurance pays for a very expensive and pretty new biologic medicine that helps control the progression of the illness, even though imaging tests show no evidence of my having the malady. In the U.K. you have to have proof through x-rays or MRIs that you are sick with this. By the time it shows up that way, the disease is already well into it's progression and you can't fix the damage that has been done. Great system you have over there. And don't you dare tell me I'm wrong about that example. I have friends in the U.K. I know the truth about this.

[jeronimous]

Oh, I love this. What would you Chavez lovers say if Bush rewrote the U.S. constitution to extend term limits and then, when the limit was four years away, he floated a referendum to do away with those term limits altogether? It wouldn't be so cool, huh? So why is it different for Venezuela? That's exactly what Chavez has done. Oh snap, the truth hurts doesn't it?

[jeronimous]

Oooo, and I'm just champing at the bit for one of you bozos to challenge me on Chavez rewriting the constitution. It's not technically a completely accurate statement. The whole truth is even worse than what you've probably been led to believe. Any takers? Feel lucky punks?

[cover fire hero]

I saw Bush drinking a diet coke, that's worse then the coca leaf, probably.

[jeronimous]

I don't care about the damn coca leaf. I already made that clear. I am completely opposed to the so called war on drugs. I support Ron Paul's views on that issue, and have felt that way on the issue probably before many of you were born.

That's right, ignore my points, or change the subject. Why? Because your media fed "information" can't stand up to personal real world experience. At least I guess that's where ya'll are getting your "insights". I can't say as I would know. I hear very little main stream news.

And let's say Bush did everything in my earlier Chavez inspired scenario. Would you also say, oh that Bush is such a great man, letting us vote on whether we should extend his already self-extended term limit that violates our original constitution? And would you really believe he would honor that vote and step down when that term expires? Please.

Edit: Oh, and those of you who ignored my multitudinous examples of corruption inherent in a communist system by saying corruption is everywhere. Okay, so tell me. Do you have to bribe the garbage man and the mail man? Someone gave the example, I think, of bribing a cop. Please, that's so common as to be ridiculous. Is that the best you can do?

[jeronimous]

Meh, I'm done with this thread. I've made my points. The truth is irrefutable. Say whatever you will against it. It's obvious I'll not overcome anyone's personal political biases. The issue of the pig with lipstick is too close to home for me. I have my own bias. It involves not wanting people to be murdered or to have their property stolen by government thugs like Chavez. I would hope that is a bias we all share.

[jannerbob]

LMFAO, The referendum was to validate his presidency for life. Just because it failed, it won't stop him. He rewrote the constitution single handedly to extend his reign until 2012. His term actually should have ended some time ago. Do you know how much the vote must have really been against him for him to "admit" a narrow defeat? Do you really think he'll step down in 2012? Do you really think there won't be massive election fraud to "re-elect" him then?

Americans, north, south and central know the difference between socialism and communism. Chavez is a communist. We know our hemisphere far better than the limey twits who are still trying to control us. Keep yourself and your totalitarianism surveillance state on your side of the pond "mate". Oh, how's that gov't. dental care working out for you? Haaahaaa....

As far as Chavez and his level of despotism... well, I can tell you this from the perspective of a venezuelan: before each of the last two elections a gang of colombian thugs came to my mother-in-law's door and asked her how she was going to vote and what her politics were. Of course, she said she was pro Chavez all the way. If she had said otherwise, she wouldn't be alive. You are talking to someone who actually has family there, k? Don't give me your damn propaganda and condescension. Oh, but you know better.   

As far as Chavez and his level of despotism... well, I can tell you this from the perspective of a venezuelan: before each of the last two elections a gang of colombian thugs came to my mother-in-law's door and asked her how she was going to vote and what her politics were. Of course, she said she was pro Chavez all the way. If she had said otherwise, she wouldn't be alive. You are talking to someone who actually has family there, k? Don't give me your damn propaganda and condescension. Oh, but you know better.

So how do i retort to this unsubstantiated claim that has no proof of validity and something i have never heard or read about before.Try" YOUR FULL OF SHIT!!How does that sound you pretentious tosser.Have the decency to prove your drivel or just do us all a favour and shut the F*CK up.Chavez is a despot?prove it.My dental care is just fine by the way and yes my country is going down the toilet and yes i am a limey,oh boo hoo the bad man has pointed out the British ate limes to stop getting scurvy,what a disgraceful slur on my nation,muppet.Yes i know more about socialism than most because i have been an active socialist for 36 years and have lived under socialism.Thatcher messed my country up not the socialists and Blairs new labour never was a socialist movement.Any way back to the point Central and Latin America have had decades of civil war death squads and terrorism.Chavez stands out like a beacon from what has gone before him.The propogandists are having a field day with him and yes you are a propogandist,everybody has worked you out.You see you are the very thing you accuse others of,thats why you attack anybody who doesn,t agree with you.We are all idiots in your eyes cos you know everything.Sorry my old china but you know sod all and we all know you know sod all.We all know that lots of Venezuelans hate Chavez and want it to go back to the way it was.We all know that lots of Venezuelans did well under the old system and they are not doing so well now.These Venezuelans did not care about poverty or literacy they only cared about themselves.You must be one of those Venezuelans,if you even are Venezuelan,so i have no respect for your views or you as a person.Chavez is a despot,he is the new hitler,the boogie man is real the tooth fairy told me,Bin Laden knocked down the Trade centres with a box cutter.Get my point!.Just cos you say it doesn,t make it true.People on this forum are more than capable of disseminating the facts from the unsubstantiated dross.El burro sabe mas que tu.

[Bozer]

LMFAO, The referendum was to validate his presidency for life... well, I can tell you this from the perspective of a venezuelan: before each of the last two elections a gang of colombian thugs came to my mother-in-law's door and asked her how she was going to vote and what her politics were. Of course, she said she was pro Chavez all the way. If she had said otherwise, she wouldn't be alive. You are talking to someone who actually has family there, k? Don't give me your damn propaganda and condescension. Oh, but you know better.   

Good info - I'd like to remind us all (myself included) that we're all in this infowar together.  I think it's important for us to keep our ids and egos in check here.  Everyone hopefully has something to offer the discussion, and if someone is flaming to just stroke their own ego, ignore him or her. 

As far as the referendum is concerned, it's important to remember that Clinton attempted to pass the same bill here in America.  Not that it mattered considering we've had the same group of thugs running our country for the past 40 years...

Cheers.

[Biggs]

a point well made by Jannerbob, Jeronimus has failed to show one bit of evidence to substantiate his claims.

[Biggs]

e.g., just some of Chavez's plans fro improving his nation are listed here: -


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17158.htm

Chavez last used it in 2001 passing 49 new legal changes making them conform to the new Bolivarian Constitution in areas of land and banking reform and establishing more equitable revenue-sharing arrangements with foreign oil companies in joint-state ventures. Going forward, he wants to continue building strong participatory democracy at its grass roots in communities and end the country's ugly past practices serving capital interests alone. The new law gives him authority to do it in the following areas, all related to the country's internal functioning without infringing on foreign relationships. He'll be allowed to:

-- Transform sclerotic bureaucratic state institutions making them more efficient, transparent and honest while allowing greater citizen participation in them.

-- Reform the civil service and eliminate entrenched corruption that's a major uncorrected problem.

-- Advance the "ideals of social justice and economic independence" by continuing to build a new social and economic model based on equitably distributing national wealth through investments in health care, education and social security.

-- Modernize financial sectors including banking and insurance and reform tax policy assuring those paying too little are taxed fairly.

-- Upgrade science and technology benefitting all sectors of society and the nation in areas of education, health, the environment, biodiversity, industry, quality of life, security and national defense including state and local community co-responsibilities for the nation's defense.

-- Improve citizen and judicial security by modernizing and reforming public health, prisons, identification, migration regulations and the judiciary.

-- Upgrade the nation's infrastructure, transport and all public services including home construction, telecommunications and information technology.

-- Structurally improve and developmentally enhance the nation's military.

-- Establish territorial organization norms in states and communities relating to voting and constituency size.

-- Allow greater state control of the nation's vital energy sector including nationalizing oil production in the Orinoco Oil basin, arranging equitable joint ventures with private investors, taking state control of electricity and gas production, and restructuring tax rates making them fairer.

[Info_Trafficker]

e.g., just some of Chavez's plans fro improving his nation are listed here: -


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17158.htm

Oh my! what a criminal!

[cover fire hero]

I don't care about the damn coca leaf. I already made that clear. I am completely opposed to the so called war on drugs. I support Ron Paul's views on that issue, and have felt that way on the issue probably before many of you were born.

That's right, ignore my points, or change the subject. Why? Because your media fed "information" can't stand up to personal real world experience. At least I guess that's where ya'll are getting your "insights". I can't say as I would know. I hear very little main stream news.

And let's say Bush did everything in my earlier Chavez inspired scenario. Would you also say, oh that Bush is such a great man, letting us vote on whether we should extend his already self-extended term limit that violates our original constitution? And would you really believe he would honor that vote and step down when that term expires? Please.

Edit: Oh, and those of you who ignored my multitudinous examples of corruption inherent in a communist system by saying corruption is everywhere. Okay, so tell me. Do you have to bribe the garbage man and the mail man? Someone gave the example, I think, of bribing a cop. Please, that's so common as to be ridiculous. Is that the best you can do?

My comment about Bush and the diet coke was what I typed after looking at the main article. I hadn't read the comments yet but just did so and found you're tirade which is understandable. I just want to point out that I wasn't trying to change the subject. I just made a passing comment which happened to appear in the middle of your argument without me intending to interject or be a part of the argument. From what I have read, I would say, that you are right.

[Mr Grinch]

 jeronimous....

Who were the masses of people and troops that thwarted the CIA/Whitehouse backed coup attempt?

Does your wifes family have the elitist view Ive seen espoused by the Venezuelan and American MSM and politicians?

Did your wifes family receive  any oil money/royalties or preferential treatment before Chavez?

Lastly is your wife Native or European?.......[insert jeopardy theme]

[Bozer]

Wrong. The refferendum would just allow him to run for office after his term is over. Your pretty much repeating junk from CNN.

And don't forget that Bill Clinton pushed the same referendum here...   

[Apostel]

well my friend brought me a bunch of coca leafs from peru sum years ago i was like how you did that with the airport and stuff ..and he jsut: no big deal i just said ITS TEA!
  and it is actually in peru atleast

[Biggs]

well my friend brought me a bunch of coca leafs from peru sum years ago i was like how you did that with the airport and stuff ..and he jsut: no big deal i just said ITS TEA!
  and it is actually in peru atleast

in any decent society it damn well should be just tea - with perhaps a bit of a health warning about overconsumption - but tea nonetheless.

I bet they were gooooooooooooooooooood.

[Bozer]

I visited Peru a few years ago and can attest to the fact that it really is just tea.  As stated in earlier posts, a lot of processing is necessary to turn coca leaves into concentrated cocaine, let alone a lot of coca leaves!  Chewing the leaves actually helps prevent and alleviate symptoms of altitude sickness, which most people get when travelling into the Andes.  You would need to eat a few pounds of leaves even to get a buzz and drink more cups of the tea than your stomach can hold just to get a buzz equivelant to a good cup of coffee.

[Biggs]

I visited Peru a few years ago and can attest to the fact that it really is just tea.  As stated in earlier posts, a lot of processing is necessary to turn coca leaves into concentrated cocaine, let alone a lot of coca leaves!  Chewing the leaves actually helps prevent and alleviate symptoms of altitude sickness, which most people get when travelling into the Andes.  You would need to eat a few pounds of leaves even to get a buzz and drink more cups of the tea than your stomach can hold just to get a buzz equivelant to a good cup of coffee.

I realised that it was of course much weaker and less addictive than powdered or liquid cocaine, however, I was not aware it was so weak as to make getting a decent high impossible.   

[Amd304912]

http://www.drmcc.org/dyndocs/46dab64cd2705.pdf

its in french

[Bozer]

I realised that it was of course much weaker and less addictive than powdered or liquid cocaine, however, I was not aware it was so weak as to make getting a decent high impossible.   

LOL - yeah, it was pretty underwhelming, but it really did the trick for the altitude.

[darsie]

I like Chavez. He's one of the few people to stand up to this totally out of control - dictatorial - and evil US adminstration.

It's a great pity there aren't more world leaders of his integrity and stature.

[Biggs]

LOL - yeah, it was pretty underwhelming, but it really did the trick for the altitude.

weill at least it is not without usefulness 

[Biggs]

I like Chavez. He's one of the few people to stand up to this totally out of control - dictatorial - and evil US adminstration.

It's a great pity there aren't more world leaders of his integrity and stature.

these are my thoughts exactly, at least he speaks out and takes his oil money for the poor rather than for Exxon, BP or himself.

[WeAreChangeNewMexico]

If this is true, how dare Chavez compete with G.H.W. Bush and the "Company". Be sure your coke is smuggled by true blue Americans. Exporting war, and importing drugs is about all we have. Lets show some pride people.

Cocaine was imported to America long before G.H.W. Bush has his hands on it...

[Apostel]

I like Chavez. He's one of the few people to stand up to this totally out of control - dictatorial - and evil US adminstration.

It's a great pity there aren't more world leaders of his integrity and stature.

yea thought the same especial after looking revolution will not be televised
but he could be a manchurian candidate
or what do you think they done to him when he was kidnapped