Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.

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Offline bento

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Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« on: December 25, 2012, 02:43:28 pm »
Ok I hear this all the time from the anti gunners now "30% illegal guns sold at gun shows".  But a study in 1997 said that only 2% of guns traced were related to gun shows . Why such the big difference and where is the data from the antis don't seem to source their data.
It has to link back somewhere? where do the drive this number from? I have  been searching many articles and they don't say except thst they use ATF numbers.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much and the best of us is washed away.

Offline bento

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2012, 12:56:21 pm »
The only thing I have found so far is the reference to a report by Charles Schumer back in 1997. The only rebuttal I have found is, Clueless: The Misuse of BATF Firearms Tracing Data.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/CluelessBATFtracing.htm

I still would like to see what they did to drive there numbers as 2% is the only number I could validate from the FBI.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much and the best of us is washed away.

Offline One Revelator

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 01:11:41 pm »
Define "illegal gun". I've never heard of it, but apparently Mayor Bloomberg thinks it exists.
The number one cause of all human poverty, misery, and death is not global warming. It’s GLOBAL LYING.

Offline bento

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 01:30:47 pm »
I take it that they are sold to individuals that are restricted from owning firearms or then use them in crimes. Also might refer to people that remove or alter serial numbers. Like you said they do not define their terms very well.

I found this and wounder if this is the data they are trying to use? I don't think it was that conclusive. More importantly it pointer to a few very "criminals" that were responsible for almost all of the firearms in the investigation. This would reinforce the fact that gun shows are not the problem but criminals that use their FFL to modify and distribute their inventory trough straw purchases to people that are not allowed to own guns(felons). I still do not see any calculation for the 30% number.

GUN SHOWS : BRADY CHECKS AND CRIME GUN TRACES

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/treas/treas-gun-shows-brady-checks-and-crime-gun-traces.pdf
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much and the best of us is washed away.

Offline bento

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 02:04:06 pm »
Ok It seems they link to this(Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers”) (June 2000)
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fireexplo_pub/pdf/followingthegun_internet.pdf

The link is dead and I cannot find the original pdf. Figures the LIEbrals can distort facts this way.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much and the best of us is washed away.

Offline bento

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 02:13:42 pm »
Well it is not free apparently you have to pay for a government study($15) that was funded with our tax dollars and cited by so many anti gun people. They probably count on people not having enough money to challenge them( we will be too poor to resist). Government documents should all be public domain WTF?
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much and the best of us is washed away.

Offline JT Coyoté

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 02:21:27 pm »
Well it is not free apparently you have to pay for a government study($15) that was funded with our tax dollars and cited by so many anti gun people. They probably count on people not having enough money to challenge them( we will be too poor to resist). Government documents should all be public domain WTF?

This is more evidence that the federal agent in Washington is not our constitutional federal agent, but an impostor.

JTCoyoté

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it becomes absolute -- from this "Absolutism," it will
destroy not only the economy, but the nation as well."

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Offline One Revelator

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 02:36:52 pm »
I take it that they are sold to individuals that are restricted from owning firearms or then use them in crimes. Also might refer to people that remove or alter serial numbers. Like you said they do not define their terms very well.

Can’t regulate the black market. Prohibition didn’t work. The authorities know this. They do not define their terms very well because they know the law and they know there is no such thing. This term “illegal gun” is being used for psychological conditioning.

Quote
I found this and wounder if this is the data they are trying to use? I don't think it was that conclusive. More importantly it pointer to a few very "criminals" that were responsible for almost all of the firearms in the investigation. This would reinforce the fact that gun shows are not the problem but criminals that use their FFL to modify and distribute their inventory trough straw purchases to people that are not allowed to own guns(felons). I still do not see any calculation for the 30% number.

GUN SHOWS : BRADY CHECKS AND CRIME GUN TRACES

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/treas/treas-gun-shows-brady-checks-and-crime-gun-traces.pdf

Most FFL’s are law abiding, and very careful about following all federal rules with precision. The cases brought up in that document were non-law abiding FFLs prior to 1999 that were caught and convicted in court. Again, the laws are there in abundance. BATF and LE agents already keep a keen eye on dealers. If somebody decides to intentionally break the law, do we need new laws for the law-breakers?

I cannot respond to 30 percent of something that doesn’t exist comes from gun shows. Sounds like the anti-gunners are just parroting a bogus talking point.
The number one cause of all human poverty, misery, and death is not global warming. It’s GLOBAL LYING.

Offline JT Coyoté

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2012, 03:15:41 pm »
Banning gun shows is a blatant violation of the first and second amendments. The right to free assembly, and the right to keep and bear arms...to start. Their stats are false in any case, they are attempting to connect gun shows as black market activity and drug related violence, when any drug dealer connected to the feds can own his own "Fast and Furious" gun by contacting his handlers... this is so much BS.

JTCoyoté

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Offline bento

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Re: Need help finding source of anti gun show statistic.
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 05:22:06 pm »
The study they cite is from 2000 so "fast and furious" would not effect it. It proves they have been at this for a very long time(the anti-freedom people). I believe(if i could look at the study) that the majority of "loophole" trafficking would boil down to less then a handful of criminal FFL traffickers. The vast majority of FFL holders are very law abiding and meticulous. I do question how long some of these others have been in business for so long. Maybe a fast and furious style operation has been going on for longer then we think? What inside connection do these "traffickers" have to evade justice for so long? What I would like to see is the percentage tracked back to the same insider, not the number of guns.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much and the best of us is washed away.