Let's Troll Each other about how old is your Church is.

[All4truth]

Davide keeps quoting, that Christ was referring to building His church on this rock and that represented Peter.  Let's look at exactly where they where when Jesus said these words and maybe we can get a better understanding of what was meant.

Caesarea Philippi was an ancient Roman city located at the southwestern base of Mount Hermon (Har Hermon or Arabic Jebel esh-Sheikh). The city is mentioned in the gospels of Matthew[1] and Mark.[2] The city was located within the region known as the "Panion" (the region of the Greek god Pan). Named after the deity associated with the grotto and shrines close to the spring called "Paneas". Today, the city, now no longer inhabited, is an archaeological site located within the Golan Heights.

Alexander the Great's conquests started a process of Hellenisation in Egypt and Syria that continued for 1,000 years. Paneas was first settled in the Hellenistic period. The Ptolemaic kings, in the 3rd century BC, built a cult centre.

Panias is a spring, also known as Banias, named for Pan, the Greek god of desolate places. It lies close to the fabled "way of the sea" mentioned by Isaiah.[7] Along which many armies of Antiquity have marched. In the distant past a giant spring, gushed from a cave in the limestone bedrock, tumbling down the valley to flow into the Huela marshes. Currently it is the source of the stream Nahal Senir. Whereas previously the Jordan River rose from the malaria infested Huela marshes it now rises from this spring and two others at the base of Mount Hermon. The flow of the spring has decreased greatly in modern times.[8] The water no longer gushes from the cave, but only seeps from the bedrock below it. Paneas was certainly an ancient place of great sanctity and when Hellenised religious influences were overlaid on the region, the cult of its local numen gave place to the worship of Pan, to whom the cave was dedicated and from which the copious spring feeding the Huela mashes rose and ultimately supplied the river Jordan.[9] The pre-Hellenic deities that have been associated with the site are Ba'al-gad or Ba'al-hermon.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarea_Philippi

“I Will Build My Church”
Six months before his crucifixion in Jerusalem, Jesus left Israel and traveled twenty-five miles north of the Sea of Galilee into the area of Caesarea Philippi at the base of Mt. Hermon. A massive rock formation stood at the base of Mt. Hermon, and during that time (first century AD), a powerful spring of water gushed from the face of the rock, forming a stream that ran into the Sea of Galilee. This rock formation is currently found in today’s Golan Heights.

The original name for Caesarea Philippi was Panias because it was the birth place of the Greek god Pan. The modern name for ancient city of Panias is Banias, which is just an Arabic corruption of the original name. In Old Testament times, this rock formation was a place of Baal worship (Josh 11:17; Judges 3:3). In 200 BC, it became a pagan shrine to honor the god Pan. Pan was portrayed as a half-man, half-god (a faun-like creature) who played a flute. In 20 BC, the territory was annexed to the kingdom of Herod the Great. This annexation was decided by Caesar Augustus. In turn, Herod built a temple on the sight and dedicated it to Caesar Augustus. So, in addition to the statues of Greek gods, the landscape was also dominated by white marble images that testified to the glory and deity of Caesar.   

The pagan world believed the water gushing from this cave came directly from the abyss and was, therefore, the official doorway to the underworld. Thus, the cave in the rock formation became known as “the Gates of Hades.” It was here that Gentiles met to worship the gods of the underworld and offer up sacrifices to Pan. Inscriptions were carved into the rock formation, and can still be seen today. They are Greek inscriptions recognizing the gods and the patrons who came there to worship the gods and give great monetary offerings to them. Statues and idols once sat in the niches of the cave. Ancient coins from Caesarea show which idols sat where. It appears a statue of Pan’s consort, a nymph named Echo, sat in one niche, while Hermes, Pan’s father, sat in another. Many other gods were placed in various spots along the face of the rock formation.

When Jesus and the disciples arrived in Caesarea Philippi, they were surrounded by idols and shrines to the cult of Caesar, along with reminders of the many immoral worship practices that had taken place there. It was a truly corrupt and wicked place, but it was to be the place where the disciples would go through a graduation ceremony of sorts. Jesus had one lesson left to teach them before they were left on their own in this new age of the church.

The disciples had learned by experience to take every word Jesus said as a word of power and prophecy. They knew by now that Jesus’ words always produced results. Whether he spoke to the wind, the demons, the lame, or the blind, his word was the key. Now Jesus was facing the greatest pagan religious shrine in the world as he spoke to his disciples. The account of the conversation between Jesus and his disciples at the Gates of Hades (the great rock shrine) is recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

“When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, ‘Who do                   people say the Son of Man is?’
            They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or                            one of the prophets.’
 ‘But what about you?’ he asked. ‘Who do you say I am?’
            Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’” Matthew 16:13-16

By responding, “you are the Son of the living God” Peter was challenging all the gods standing in the niches of the rocks and honored in the temples around them.

“Jesus replied, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by    man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this        rock I will build my church, and the Gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’  Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.”
                                                                        Matthew 16:17-20

In these verses, Jesus uses a name he had given Simon the first time they met (John 1:42). The Greek word for Peter is “petros” and is masculine in word form. The word is found 154 times in the Greek New Testament, and, in all but one case, refers to Peter. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint or LXX) the word is used twice and both times it is referring to a stone. Greek dictionaries define “petros” as “a detached stone or boulder,” or “a stone that might be thrown or easily moved.”

Galyn Wiemers stands among the ruins of the shrines
and the temples built in front of the Gates of Hades


The rock formation at Caesarea Philippi where Jesus said,
“I will build my church and the Gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

When Jesus says “on this rock I will build my church” he uses the word “petra” meaning rock.  This is the feminine form of the word “petros” but is used much different in Greek writing. While other Greek writers used the masculine form to denote a stone that is easily moved, this form of the word was used in secular Greek to denote a large and solid rock, not easily moved.

In Exodus 17:6 in the Septuagint (LXX), the feminine word translates as “a cliff.” In the New Testament, “petra” is used twice in the parable of the man who built his house on a rock or “petra,” a huge rock formation (Matthew 7:24, 25). Josephus uses the word to describe the massive fitted stone blocks in the towers of Jerusalem. He says they are “huge rocks suited for the foundation of buildings” “as contrasted with “ordinary rocks (or petros) that men carry around.”

Peter is called a “stone or a rock” and is told “on this rock formation or cliff” (the one they’re standing in front of), I will build my church. Jesus traveled twenty-five miles in order to show his disciples God’s plan for the church. The church would spread to Gentile lands, take over pagan temples, pagan philosophies, and pagan cultures. It would eclipse pagan societies. And Jesus promised there was absolutely nothing the Gates of Hades would be able to do to stop it.

The church wasn’t going to be a temple like the one in Jerusalem made of gold and stone. The building materials for the church would instead consist of stones like Peter—people who believed Jesus was the Christ. In I Peter 2:4-9, Peter writes:

“As you come to him, the living Stone – rejected by men but chosen by God and precious               to him – you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house.”

Paul writes to the Gentiles in the Greek city of Ephesus:
           
            “Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and       prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”  Ephesians 2:19

The church began in the pagan Roman world where Caesar was worshipped. But after the Roman Emperor himself converted, Caesar worship was abolished. Pagan temples turned into churches. Barbaric tribes consumed with darkness and superstitions found Christ. Some of those tribes turned into great civilizations over the next 2,000 years.

Jesus told the church that there was not a demon, a philosophy, or a society they could not overcome. If the truth about Jesus and his word were proclaimed, the church would takeover the Gates of Hades themselves. Just as ancient cities were destroyed by enemy forces and then resettled by the conquerors, so would pagan societies be conquered, not with the sword, but with the truth about Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, “Upon this rock of the pagan worship and heathen societies I will build my church and the Gates of Hades will not stop it!” Sure enough, the dark philosophies of the heathen world and the idols once worshipped at pagan shrines began slowly disappearing. Societies were transformed as nations and tribes of all kinds began to follow God.

“After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands, and they cried out in a loud voice: ‘Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”                                                                                                        Revelation 7:9, 10

http://www.generationword.com/bible_school_notes/49.html

[goforward]

Davide keeps quoting, that Christ was referring to building His church on this rock and that represented Peter.  Let's look at exactly where they where when Jesus said these words and maybe we can get a better understanding of what was meant.

http://www.generationword.com/bible_school_notes/49.html

Proverbs 25:2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

[DAVIDE MTL]

Davide keeps quoting, that Christ was referring to building His church on this rock and that represented Peter.  Let's look at exactly where they where when Jesus said these words and maybe we can get a better understanding of what was meant.

http://www.generationword.com/bible_school_notes/49.html

I have refuted the petros claim at nauseam, quick question, in the Church that Jesus built, are there bishops and priests involved

[skyfind]

Most important, the Catholics don´t have this:

1 Corinthians 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

------

1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

And "DAVIDE MTL ", you didn´t answer to this above in my previous post

[All4truth]

I have refuted the petros claim at nauseam, quick question, in the Church that Jesus built, are there bishops and priests involved

The fact is that Jesus was not speaking to Peter as being the rock, he was speaking of what was around them, and all the idols and especially the rock of worship that everyone was worshipping pan. 

Peter like anyone else who believe's in Christ is a stone, a living stone.  Here Peter says it himself.  Also we are a perculiar people and priesthood, unto God.  Not just some but all of us

1Pe 2:4   ¶   To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,


1Pe 2:5       Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


1Pe 2:6       Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


1Pe 2:7       Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


1Pe 2:8       And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


1Pe 2:9       But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

[DAVIDE MTL]

The fact is that Jesus was not speaking to Peter as being the rock, he was speaking of what was around them, and all the idols and especially the rock of worship that everyone was worshipping pan. 

Peter like anyone else who believe's in Christ is a stone, a living stone.  Here Peter says it himself.  Also we are a perculiar people and priesthood, unto God.  Not just some but all of us

1Pe 2:4   ¶   To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,


1Pe 2:5       Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


1Pe 2:6       Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


1Pe 2:7       Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


1Pe 2:8       And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


1Pe 2:9       But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The Fact is Jesus was speaking to Peter as Rock, so I'll repeat

think for a moment how absurd it would be if Jesus were not saying that Peter is the rock...

Jesus pronounces Peter alone is blessed.

"And Jesus answered and said unto hi, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona.."
(Matt 16:17)

Jesus changes only Peter's name.

"And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church..." (Matt 16:18)

Jesus gathers His disciples and gives the keys of the Kingdom to Peter alone. He then gives to Peter alone the power to bind and loose.

"and Iwill give unto thee (Peter) the keys to the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in haven..." (Matt 16:19)

But when he's talking about the rock, even though the statment is in the midst of all of these others to Peter alone, Protestants would have us believe that Jesus is not talking about Peter but about Himself or something else.It's ridiculous. It's so obviously false that argumentation really shouldn't be necessary.

even this Protestant can see it, why can't you

baptist D.A. Carson,professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelial Seminary, was forced to acknowledge

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean stone and rock respectivelyin earlier Greek,the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable;and most probably kepha was used inboth clauses(you are kepha and on this kepha), since the word was used both for a name and for a rock...The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the femine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."
(quoted in the Expositor's Bible Commentary,volume 8, p368)

and I repeat

even this Protestant can see it

baptist D.A. Carson,professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelial Seminary, was forced to acknowledge

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean stone and rock respectivelyin earlier Greek,the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable;and most probably kepha was used inboth clauses(you are kepha and on this kepha), since the word was used both for a name and for a rock...The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the femine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."
(quoted in the Expositor's Bible Commentary,volume 8, p368)

[DAVIDE MTL]

And "DAVIDE MTL ", you didn´t answer to this above in my previous post

not sure what your point is

[angel]

lol, all my threads prove the exact opposite, that the teachings of the Catholic Church are all biblical, and that the protestants reject the bible, if you read your bible you would know that, or you can show me using scripture how I'm wrong

You have been shown.  When someone refuses to see that a forest is made up of many trees and instead chooses to examine one tree or two and says they know what a forest is, is convoluted.  This convoluted way of thinking seems to be the typical paradigm of Catholics who attempt to uphold the church as Biblical. 

I'm reading an interesting paper on what the early church fathers thought of the subject of Peter as the rock. First let me explain that RCC's claim that it was built on "Peter the rock" is based on two assumptions; first, the unanimous consensus of the church fathers (patristic consensus), AND second, the final word of the pope; the church representative which cannot err.  This is flawed from the start.

Here is the typical argument of apologists for the RCC, specifically referring to St. Augustine:

"St. Augustine’s recognition of the authority of the Pope is manifested by the famous words with which he welcomes the decision made by the Pope of Peter as the rock of the roman church - "Roma locuta est; causa finita est—Rome has spoken the case is concluded" (Sermon 131, 6:10).  So why does St. Augustine believe this to be true?  Why does Augustine believe the Bishop of Rome has the final word? The answer is because the Pope is the successor of St. Peter—a fact clearly recognized by Augustine in his Letter to Generosus (c. 400 A.D.) in which he names all 34 of the bishops of Rome from Peter to Anastasius (Letter 53, 1,2)." 

This is the common reasoning.  Other fathers are cited as well and the quotes typically used from their writings are, "chair of Peter"-St. Cyprian,  "the principle Church in which sacerdotal unity has its source"-St. Ambrose.

But the article raised a crucial point.  Is this really what the fathers are saying?  That the Peter was the rock that the church was built on?  Or are the common quotes taken completely out of context distorting their true meaning?   "...the actual references from the fathers cited in this work are very selective, often omitting important citations of their overall works that demonstrate a view contrary to that which is being proposed. What we will discover, if we give the statements of the fathers in context and in correlation with their overall writings, is that their actual perspective is often the opposite of that claimed by Vatican I and these Roman apologists."

The consistent problem with the roman catholic view is it's consistent removal of Scripture from greater Bible context.  "The Roman Church states that Matthew 16 teaches that the Church is built upon Peter and therefore upon the bishops of Rome in an exclusive sense. What is seldom ever mentioned is the fact that Ephesians 2:20 uses precisely the same language as that found in Matthew 16 when it says the Church is built upon the apostles and prophets with Christ as the cornerstone. The same greek word for build upon in Matthew 16 is employed in Ephesians 2:20. This demonstrates that from a biblical perspective, even if we were to interpret the rock of Matthew 16 to be the person of Peter, the New Testament does not view the apostle Peter to be unique in this role. Christ is the foundation and the Church is built upon all the apostles and prophets in the sense of being built upon their teaching. And in addition, the Roman Catholic interpretation imports a meaning into the Matthew 16 text that is completely absent. This text says absolutely nothing about infallibility or about successors."
   
Here are a few of the church fathers quotes misused by roman catholic apologists:

TERTULLIAN (A.D. 155/160—240/250)

   "'Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called the ‘rock on which the church should be built’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and earth?" (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951), Volume III, Tertullian, Prescription Against Heretics 22).

Though Tertullian states that Peter is the rock he does not mean it in a pro–papal sense. We know this because of other comments he has made. But if we isolate this one passage it would be easy to read a pro–Roman interpretation into it. However, in other comments on Matthew 16:18–19, Tertullian explains what he means when he says that Peter is the rock on which the Church would be built:

    'If, because the Lord has said to Peter, ‘Upon this rock I will build My Church,’ ‘to thee have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom;’ or, ‘Whatsoever thou shalt have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens,’ you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? ‘On thee,’ He says, ‘will I build My church;’ and, ‘I will give thee the keys’...and, ‘Whatsoever thou shalt have loosed or bound’...In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key; you see what key: ‘Men of Israel, let what I say sink into your ears: Jesus the Nazarene, a man destined by God for you,’ and so forth. (Peter) himself, therefore, was the first to unbar, in Christ’s baptism, the entrance to the heavenly kingdom, in which kingdom are ‘loosed’ the sins that were beforetime ‘bound;’ and those which have not been ‘loosed’ are ‘bound,’ in accordance with true salvation...'(Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951), Volume IV, Tertullian, On Modesty 21, p. 99)."

For the sake of breaking up a long and exhausting post, I'll continue with more distortions of the church fathers writings in a later post.