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Author Topic: Gold isn't the answer  (Read 2230 times)
Trainwreck
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« on: March 10, 2012, 02:45:15 AM »

Well i can see CoIntelPro is hard at work in here, you guys suck btw but are getting a little better...

Globalism in the MSM refers to trade policies...if you listen to what Pauls been saying he is very outspoken about national sovereignty. It's pretty apparent he's anarcho capitalist despite trying to come off as Minarchist so as not to completely shock the public with full on libertarianism. So to think he's advocating hegemonic imperial globalism is absurd. If a country wants fiat money that's their business, but they better fork over some gold if they want our products. Pauls views are not a secret nor are they unique to him, pick up one of his books it's all laid out clear as day.

Tarpley is being pig headed, he may not philosophically agree with Paul but they certainly both have the honest good intentions of weeding out corruption and changing the system to one that would genuinely help the people prosper. Ignoring that and focusing on philosophical differences is missing the point, so shame on him. If you're starving to death and someone hands you a burger you don't send it back hoping for steak.
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Geolibertarian
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 08:35:09 AM »

If a country wants fiat money that's their business, but they better fork over some gold if they want our products.

Or else what?

Or else trade comes to a standstill, that's what, because there isn't nearly enough gold to facilitate the current level of international commerce:

     http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg982706#msg982706

That's the dirty little secret that goldbugs are in either blissful ignorance of or willful denial about.

Before anyone starts hyperventilating, I should probably point out that, insofar as monetary policy is concerned, I've been arguing against the ridiculously false Austrian School-vs.-Keynesian School paradigm for well over a decade. Thus, my position on that issue has nothing to do with Ron Paul's presidential campaign, since it was arrived at many years prior to Dr. Paul's decision to pursue the GOP nomination.
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tritonman
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 08:49:34 AM »

If gold held its real value there would be enough gold. Wink
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Geolibertarian
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 09:00:50 AM »

If gold held its real value there would be enough gold. Wink

No there wouldn't. Unfortunately, many well-meaning people have become so emotionally invested in the idea (thanks to Austrian School propaganda) that they refuse to face this simple fact and adjust their views accordingly.

As Byron Dale rightly points out, it's like "a religion" to them:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E0UPBtmTb0&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLC1BDC7CCD8684C7F
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"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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tritonman
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 09:47:43 AM »

If gold held its real value there would be enough gold. Wink
Actually it would be enough no matter how you ridicule.  Gold if valued properly does reflect current price.  Good luck disputing that. lol
We have the ability to make it's value correct, but yes, of course at it's current levels it does not but then you know that is a strawman arguement don't you? Wink
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Trainwreck
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 10:15:05 AM »

Or else what?

Or else trade comes to a stand still, that's what, because there isn't nearly enough gold to facilitate the current level of international commerce:

     http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg982706#msg982706

That's the dirty little secret that goldbugs are in either blissful ignorance of or willful denial about.

Before anyone starts hyperventilating, I should probably point out that, insofar as monetary policy is concerned, I've been arguing against the ridiculously false Austrian School-vs.-Keynesian School paradigm for well over a decade. Thus, my position on that issue has nothing to do with Ron Paul's presidential campaign, since it was arrived at many years prior to Dr. Paul's decision to pursue the GOP nomination.

Any amount of gold is enough the supply determines the value, any stable commodity to back a currency with would work....Paper money would work too if printing were tightly regulated and axe fractional reserves. Real wealth measured in assets not debt. Trade deficits covered in gold(or w/e). If a country starts running out of gold then it's time to increase production of whatever your export goods are. Not very complicated. True free market will provide abundance in nearly every industry and a higher standard of living for the world. God forbid our money increases in value.
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Geolibertarian
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 10:32:22 AM »

Actually it would be enough

Actually no it wouldn't.

Quote
Gold if valued properly does reflect current price.

There simply isn't enough gold to facilitate the current level of trade, no matter how it's "valued." That's precisely why the fractional reserve banking which goldbugs profess to oppose grew out of the gold standard.

Quote
Good luck disputing that.

I don't have to. History itself disputes it:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXt1cayx0hs
     http://old.monetary.org/lostscienceofmoney.html

Quote
lol

Typing "lol" might impress the average high schooler, but few others.

Quote
We have the ability to make it's value correct,

Again, history has repeatedly proven otherwise.

Quote
but yes, of course at it's current levels it does not but then you know that is a strawman arguement don't you? Wink

Nice try, but it's not a straw man argument. Unlike 99.9% of the people who worship the gold standard, I've actually done the math, and I know for a fact that no matter how a gold standard is instituted, it will impose a money supply contraction so severe that it'll make the contraction which caused the Great Depression seem inflationary by comparison.

Parroting the same discredited Austrian School talking points over and over again doesn't change that simple fact.

But I'm sure that won't stop you from doing so again anyway.  Roll Eyes

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Geolibertarian
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 10:44:28 AM »

Any amount of gold is enough

If that were true, the Great Depression would never have happened in the first place. But it did.

In 1932, the gold-backed Federal Reserve Note was 20% higher in value than it was four years beforehand.

If Austrian School propaganda had any basis in reality, then the average American worker should have been better off as a result of this increase in "value." But as anyone who isn't blinded by ideology knows, not only was he not better off, he was worse off.

And that, of course, wasn't the first time Americans had to learn this lesson the hard way:

--------------------------

"[Andrew] Jackson and Van Buren removed the monetary power from the private bankers but did not re-establish it in the hands of the nation. Instead, Van Buren organized the Independent Treasury System, establishing 15 sub branches of the Treasury to handle government moneys in 1840. From December 1836 the government moved toward making and receiving all payments in coinage, or truly convertible bank notes....Once the state bank notes were no longer accepted by the government, their circulation was cut back dramatically.

"This was the closest our nation has ever come to implementing a real gold/silver standard. Operating under the commodity theory of money, Van Buren, who truly cared for the Republic, helped bring on the worst depression the Nation had ever seen, starting in 1837. It was reportedly even worse than that caused by the 2nd Bank of the U.S. in 1819. Bad as the state bank notes were, they had still been functioning as money!

"Those who proclaim that no gold and silver money system has ever failed should consider that whether you are a laborer, farmer, or industrialist, the money system's success or failure is not measured by the value of a piece of metal. When your job, your farm, or factory has disappeared in a monetarily created depression, the system has failed!" [Emphasis added]

-- Stephen Zarlenga, The Lost Science of Money, p. 426

--------------------------

Quote
any stable commodity to back a currency with would work....

Not if there isn't an adequate supply of that commodity, it wouldn't. The Austrian School has made a virtual religion out of ignoring this simple fact of history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI
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"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Geolibertarian
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 10:55:22 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi2gOhvpOHg (The Money Masters – part 9 of 22)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyaj30n8kZY (The Money Masters – part 10 of 22)

The following excerpts from The Money Masters can be viewed in the two youtube clips above.

------------------------------

A truly incredible editorial in the London Times explained the central bankers' attitude towards Lincoln's Greenbacks:

    "If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe." -- Times of London

[...]

Allegations that international bankers were responsible for Lincoln's assassination surfaced in Canada 70 years later in 1934. Gerald G. McGeer, a popular and well-respected Canadian attorney, revealed this stunning charge in a five hour speech before the Canadian House of Commons blasting Canada's debt-based money system. Remember: it was 1934, the height of the Great Depression, which was ravaging Canada as well. McGeer had obtained evidence -- deleted from the public record -- provided to him by Secret Service agents at the trial of John Wilks Booth, after Booth's death. McGeer said it showed that Booth was a mercenary working for the international bankers. According to an article in the Vancouver Sun of May 2, 1934:

    "Abraham Lincoln, the martyred Emancipator of the Slaves, was assassinated through the machinations of a group representative of the international bankers who feared the United States President's national credit ambitions....

    "'There was only one group in the world at that time who...had any reason to desire the death of Lincoln.

    "'They were the men opposed to his national currency program, and who had fought him throughout the whole of the Civil War on his policy of greenback currency.'"

Interestingly, McGeer claimed that Lincoln was assassinated not only because international bankers wanted to reestablish a central bank in America, but because they also wanted to base America's currency on gold -- gold they controlled. In other words: put America on a gold standard. Lincoln had done just the opposite by issuing U.S. notes -- Greenbacks -- which were based purely on the good faith and credit of the United States. The article quoted McGeer as saying:

    "'They were the men interested in the establishment of the Gold Standard...and the right of the bankers to manage the currency and credit of every nation in the world.

    "'With Lincoln out of the way they were able to proceed with that plan, and did proceed with it in the United States. Within eight years after Lincoln's assassination silver was demonetized and the Gold Standard money system set up in the United States.'"

Not since Lincoln has the U.S. issued debt-free United States notes.

[...]

With Lincoln out of the way, the money changers' next objective was to gain complete control over America's money. This was no easy task. With the opening of the American west, silver had been discovered in huge quantities. On top of that, Lincoln's Greenbacks were generally popular. Despite the European central bankers' deliberate attacks on Greenbacks, they continued to circulate in the United States -- in fact until a few years ago. According to historian W. Cleon Skousen:

    "Right after the Civil War there was considerable talk about reviving Lincoln's brief experiment with the Constitutional monetary system. Had not the European money-trust intervened, it would have no doubt become an established institution." -- W. Cleon Skousen

It is clear that the concept of America printing her own debt-free money sent shock waves throughout the European central banking elite. They watched with horror as Americans clamored for more Greenbacks. They may have killed Lincoln, but support for his monetary ideas grew.

On April 12, 1866, nearly one year to the day of Lincoln's assassination, Congress went to work at the bidding of the European central banking interests. It passed the Contraction Act, authorizing the Secretary of the Treasury to begin to retire some of the Greenbacks in circulation, and thereby contract the money supply. Authors Theodore R. Thoren and Richard F. Warner explained the results of the money contraction in their classic book on the subject, The Truth In Money Book:

    "The hard times which occurred after the Civil War could have been avoided if the Greenback legislation had continued as President Lincoln had intended. Instead, there were a series of money panics -- what we call 'recessions' -- which put pressure on Congress to enact legislation to place the banking system under centralized control. Eventually, the Federal Reserve Act was passed on December 23, 1913."

In other words, the money changers wanted two things: (1) the reinstitution of a central bank under their exclusive control, and (2) an American currency backed by gold. Their strategy was two-fold.

First of all, cause a series of panics to try to convince the American people that only centralized control of the money supply could provide economic stability.

And secondly, remove so much money from the system, that most Americans would be so desperately poor that they either wouldn't care or would be too weak to oppose the bankers.

In 1866, there was $1.8 billion in currency in circulation in the United States -- about $50.46 per capita. In 1867 alone, half a billion dollars...was removed from the U.S. money supply. Ten years later, in 1876, America's money supply was reduced to only $600 million. In other words, 2/3 of America's money had been called in by the bankers. Only $14.60 per capita remained in circulation. Ten years later [in 1886], the money supply had been reduced to only $400 million, even though the population had boomed. The result was that only $6.67 per capita remained in circulation -- a 760% loss in buying power over 20 years.

Today, economists try to sell the idea that recessions and depressions are a natural part of something they call the "business cycle." The truth is, our money supply is manipulated now just as it was before and after the Civil War.

How did this happen? How did money become so scarce? Simple. Bank loans were called in, and no new ones were given. In addition, silver coins were melted down. In 1872, a man named Ernest Seyd was given a hundred thousand pounds -- about $500 thousand -- by the Bank of England and sent to America to bribe necessary Congressmen to get silver demonetized. He was told that if that was not sufficient, to draw an additional hundred thousand pounds, or as much more as was necessary.

The next year Congress passed the Coinage Act of 1873, and the minting of silver dollars abruptly stopped. In fact, Representative Samuel Hooper, who introduced the bill in the House, acknowledged that Mr. Seyd actually drafted the legislation. But it gets even worse than that. In 1874, Seyd himself admitted who was behind the scheme:

    "I went to America in the winter of 1872-73, authorized to secure, if I could, the passage of a bill demonetizing silver. It was in the interest of those I represented -- the governors of the Bank of England -- to have it done. By 1873, gold coins were the only form of coin money." -- Ernest Seyd

But the contest over control of America's money was not yet over. Only three years later, in 1876, with one-third of America's workforce unemployed, the population was growing restless. People were clamoring for a return to the Greenback money system of President Lincoln, or a return to silver money -- anything that would make money more plentiful. That year, Congress created the United States Silver Commission to study the problem. Their report clearly blamed the monetary contraction on the national bankers. The report is interesting, because it compares the deliberate money contraction by the national bankers after the Civil War to the fall of the Roman Empire:

    "The disaster of the Dark Ages was caused by decreasing money and falling prices.... Without money, civilization could not have had a beginning, and with a diminishing supply, it must languish and unless relieved, finally perish.

    "At the Christian era the metallic money of the Roman Empire amounted to $1,800,000,000. By the end of the Fifteenth century it had shrunk to less than $200,000,000.... History records no other such disastrous transition as that from the Roman Empire to the Dark Ages." -- United States Silver Commission

Despite this report by the Silver Commission, Congress took no action. The next year, 1877, riots broke out from Pittsburgh to Chicago. The torches of starving vandals lit up the sky. The bankers huddled to decide what to do. They decided to hang on. Now that they were back in control (to a certain extent), they were not about to give it up.

At the meeting of the American Bankers Association that year, they urged their membership to do everything in their power to put down the notion of a return to Greenbacks. The ABA secretary, James Buel, authored a letter to the members which blatantly called on the banks to subvert not only Congress but the press:

    "It is advisable to do all in your power to sustain such prominent daily and weekly newspapers, especially the Agricultural and Religious Press, as will oppose the Greenback issue of paper money and that you will also withhold patronage from all applicants who are not willing to oppose the government issue of money.

    "....To repeal the Act creating bank notes, or to restore to circulation the government issue of money will be to provide the people with money and will therefore seriously affect our individual profits as bankers and lenders.

    "See your Congressman at once and engage him to support our interests that we may control legislation." -- James Buel, American Bankers Association

------------------------------
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EvadingGrid
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 11:06:22 AM »

Gold is the answer, prior to the removal of the Gold Standard by that crook Richard Nixon in August 15, 1971 the world was in economic heaven. There was full employment, no poor, no landless, it was economic heaven.

There was no house of Rothschild prior to August 15, 1971
JFK was never assassinated, thats just democrat propaganda
There was no Civil War, another lefty liberal lie
The Jacobin's never rampaged with the guillotine
Cecil Rhodes did not carve up Rhodesia that is just Left Wing nutjob just lies...

Gold is the answer, everything in the entire planet was good until August 15, 1971

Gold...
Gold....
It will feed the poor.
It will save the world.
The messiah will return if only we revert to the gold standard.

Your all just commie russkies if you don't understand that Gold is the answer to life the universe and everything.

See gold will fix anything...
Next time your car breaks down, just put a sprinkle of gold dust in the gas tank, and hey presto it will work.
You can even avoid death and taxes, if only you understand that anything and everything can be fixed by returning to the gold standard.
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« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 12:50:24 PM »


For the goldbugs, of which I used to be one (like most that eventually reach the age of reason), even if you can counter the market manipulation techniques TPTB would use in such a system, there would have to be routine corrections to account for availability.  Despite the idea that "properly valued" there would be "enough", that could not always be the case.  The other side of the equation in a prosperous society is that populations grow... meaning there are more people using the currency (in this case, gold).

Just for the sake of simplicity, if there were 7B people and 7B ounces of gold, what happens when the population blooms to 8B and there is still only 7B ounces of gold?  Now you have more consumers than you have currency... see the problem?

Gold is finite.

My juvenile example is not as eloquent as Geo's, but it does highlight a flaw in the idea of gold as a currency.
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TahoeBlue
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 12:59:33 PM »

In my research of the rise of Mao and how China was the real beginning of WWII (and the Vietnam of their generation) as early as 1934 when fdr came in, the money masters used silver to break the economy of then non-commuist China all while the Japanese had already invaded Manchuria (1931):

In accordance with the Silver Purchase Act passed by the US Congress in June 1934, the US Treasury began massive purchases of silver worldwide.

Considering the history of China led to the Korean Conflict and the Vietnam Conflict, it is interesting how the finances worked out.

Reference Links:

RELATIONS BETWEEN FOREIGN FORCES AND THE POPULATION OF CHINA

In accordance with the Silver Purchase Act passed by the US Congress in June 1934, the US Treasury began massive purchases of silver worldwide. Two countries were especially concerned: Mexico, at that time an important silver producer, and China whose monetary system was based on silver in spite of the fact that the country was not a substantial producer. As a result of the American purchases the price of silver tripled which was indeed one of the objectives of the Silver Act. While Mexico profited, this price increase was detrimental to China in several respects: it increased the foreign debt based on silver, it drained silver from the whole country toward the financial center of Shanghai thus bringing about a country-wide deflation and at the time a speculation frenzy lead by major banks controlled by the Nationalists.

Due to the silver shortage, the Nationlist government decided in November 1935 to nationalize silver and to issue a fiat paper money. This move emulated a similar action for gold made by the Roosevelt administration in March 1933. The issuance of such an unbacked currency eventually led to the hyper inflation of the late 1940s.
...

Jan 31, 1940: Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek is hastening his measures to consolidate Chinese control of Tibet, according to advices from Chungking today, and expects during this year to make that formerly semiindependent State an integral part of Nationalist China. A 6-year old child has been appointed as Dalai Lama. (NYT p. Cool
[This article (and a number of similar articles given below, see in particular the articles about uprisings in 1947 and 1949) shows that the control of the nationalist government over southern China also came to include Tibet. The thirteenth Dalai Lama, political pontiff of Tibet, had died in 1933]
...
Mar 26, 1945: The Comptroller of the United States approved the use of no-rate currency by American naval forces in China. No-rate Chinese National Currency, or “Funny Money” as some Rice Paddy Navy boys called it, was regular Chinese currency issued by the central givernment to the DisbursingOfficer, China (DOCHINA), for expenditure by their agents without determination of a definite rate of exchange or means of settlement between the two governments. There was no limit as to the amounts which might be drawn from China by these officers. It must be added that according to SACO rules most locally manufactured material, facilities or services were being furnished gratis by the Chinese.

On 7 July 1945, an Army courier dropped 20 wooden cases at the Kunmimg airport. When one of the cases was opened, it appeared to contain 50 million CN (Chinese National) dollars in crisp, new banknotes printed by the American Bank Note Company. Altogether the cases contained one billion CN dollars. At that time this represented 1000/2900 = 0.34 million US dollar. In September 1945, this money was carried from Kunming to Shanghai and Tsingtao where it was distributed to agent officers of American warships which were in the port, masters of merchant vessels, news correspondents, American banking institutions and other accredited persons.

On 31 August 1946, the Republic of China signed an agreement with the United States in which she aquitted America for all advances of Chinese National currency made to the US Navy, US Army and other Government agencies as one of the conditions under which she purchased America’s surplus property in the Western Pacific.

DOCHINA was disestablished on 31 December 1946. During the 3 years it was operative, DOCHINA received CN$ 16.5 billions 50 (Stratton 1950, p. 195, 200, 207, 210, 219, 356)

[In short, the “Funny Money” was Chinese money put at the disposal of American forces in China. One may wonder why this currency was printed by an American company. According to an agreement negotiated in 1914 the American Bank Note Company would print Chinese notes, bonds and stamps (NYT 1 April 1914, p. 4); this agreement remained in force until the end of the Nationalist rule in China.]
 


| - - - - -


The Hoover Institution Library and Archives - Stanford University - Report 2004: Library and Archives
...

T. V. Soong worked at the highest levels in Washington to marshal support for the Republic of China: left to right, Henry L. Stimson (U.S. secretary of war), (Manhattan Project) James V. Forrestal (Murder/suicide) (U.S. secretary of the navy), President Harry S. Truman, T. V. Soong, and Edward R. Stettinius (U.S. secretary of state). Photograph: T. V. Soong papers, Hoover Archives.

Selections of the vast papers of T. V. Soong, finance minister of China and foreign minister in World War II, have been deposited at Hoover since the 1970s. Much of the Soong collection was restricted during the lifetime of Madame Chiang Kai-shek (Soong’s sister) out of respect for her privacy.

The collection was significantly enhanced in 2004, when the family of T. V. Soong not only opened up the restricted materials in the Hoover Archives but added substantial documentation from the family files. Those records document Soong’s close relationship with President Roosevelt, Soong’s role in marshaling U.S. support for China in World War II, and his family’s role in gaining U.S. support for Taiwan during the cold war. The papers reveal the inside story (never before completely understood) of General Stilwell’s removal from power in 1944. Another revelation is the exact status of the Soong family finances, long a subject of intense speculation.


| - - - - --

How China Was Stolen - Silver Purchase Act of 1934

In the spring of 1928, T.V. Soong (Chiang’s Triad-connected brother-in-law) forced the Shanghai banks to become dependent on high-interest "guaranteed" government bonds. Skeptical bankers were arrested. By 1932, Chinese banks located in Shanghai were stuck with between 50 per cent and 80 per cent of Nationalist government bonds.

Also in 1928 Soong founded a government "Central Bank" (patterned on the US Federal Reserve), the "State Bank of the Republic of China." Soong appointed many of the directors of private banks to a figurehead board of directors of the Central Bank. Nationalist officials who controlled the issuance of government bonds often gained seats on the boards of private banks. Just as in the US, those with inside information on Central Bank manipulations quickly became a privileged class of kleptocrats.

...
In June 1934 the Silver Purchase Act was passed. This Act instructed the United States Treasury to purchase silver until the world price of silver rose above $1.29 per ounce, or until the monetary value of the U.S. silver stock reached one-third the monetary value of the gold stock. (Note that this huge US government expenditure occurred at the worst time in the US Great Depression, when most ordinary Americans were struggling desperately to avoid bankruptcy).



OSS in Action: The Pacific and the Far East

US Navy's Secret war in China


RESEARCH BOOKS/MATERIAL – DRUGS

(p. 47) –

White…was to investigate rumors that Detachment 101…organized by Garland Williams…was providing opium to Burmese guerrillas fighting the Japanese…the rumors were true…America’s spymasters would never sever the drug-smuggling connections they established during the war, nor could the FBN exert any influence over the situation. On the contrary, the FBN assumed a collateral role in narcotics-related espionage activities…The Luciano Project and Truth Drug programs are examples, as was the formation of the Sino-American Cooperative Organization (SACO) by Navy Secretary Frank Knox, OSS chief William Donovan, and Chiang Kai-shek’s intelligence chief, General Tai Li. SACO would effectively put an end to any drug control over Nationalist China. SACO went into action in 1943, when a team of Americans under Treasury Agent…which included FBN agents…It was an open secret that Tai Li’s agents escorted opium caravans…and used Red Cross operations as a front for selling opium to the Japanese…he received the same immunity afforded Detachment 101.  

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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 03:54:35 PM »


Just for the sake of simplicity, if there were 7B people and 7B ounces of gold, what happens when the population blooms to 8B and there is still only 7B ounces of gold?  Now you have more consumers than you have currency... see the problem?

.
Actually no that is not a problem.  The golds value increases with demand is all.  It is just that simple really.  You would not be working in ounces by the way.  You would still be in notes,  only the notes would have something tangible backing them.
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 04:03:14 PM »

I'd rather have some gold than a fiat. Maybe a Triumph or an MG but not a fiat.
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