Jan Man

[solmcaz]

Question:

      Unemployment as it is, why do we allow legal immigration much less ship in criminals from mexico?

[sentinelscout]

Although I do share your concerns on unemployment, and I agree immigration is a problem.... I don't think the two are that related.

1)Whats wrong with immigration IMO?
I think the way its done is poor, the way it is now, the illegal immigrants are in a sense operating out of jurisdictional reach of the govt.
So the govt (our collective force) could punish people (one of us) for hiring illegals, but they can't really do much to the illegal himself but let him go.

So in reality, our society is setup where its MORE beneficial to be an OUTSIDER than it is to be an INSIDER/Citizen.

Lets just face it! citizens get screwed!!!
We pay all these taxes,fines, and eat the inflation,  none of the money goes towards useful stuff like roads/upgrading infrastructure and a lot of it / most of it gets eaten up in "administrative costs" and goes right into the bureaucracies bank account where it never sees the light of day again till some pompous fat asshole goes out to buy a benz.

So the citizen eats the cost and sees very little of the benefit (if there is any, I have yet to personally benefit from the system), other than using the public roads which have been there and have been paid for 10 times over for years, and even that I don't use much anymore (since I don't really have a steady job/work seasonally).


Honestly its come to mind quite a few times to renounce citizenship and just float around (where are they gona deport me to? ha? I was born here ?) ^^
/no taxes/no tickets/fines etc... none of their mumbo jumbo paper work would really apply, shred all the paper work and just call myself by my first name.


2) The jobs problem, it has very little to do with immigration IMO.

The way our money system works is, we borrow perceived or "probable" future prosperity and print money in the hopes that the spending will help to "realize" the "fictional" "future prosperity", 90% of the time it doesn't and we eat inflation.

Inflation is two fold, (good and bad)
on the up swing (as inflation builds up) more jobs are created (money flows, loans are created to fund NEW small businesses, these small businesses hire / employ people) those employees spend their paychecks into the economy and the economy seems good for a while.

The problem is, that in order for all that prosperity to happen a "debt" is incured by someone in the economy(usually the small business owner).
So the net outcome of the entire system is.
1 person gets deeply into debt, 10 people get jobs and eat the loan money that one person got in debt to get, the 1 person in debt either manages that money to generate a profit and pay the debt off or he ends up bankrupt.

When banks stop lending money, the money supply stops growing and whatevers left circulating gets eaten up / taken out of circulation by:
Taxes
health care costs (its not as bad as the others)
Interest payments on loans.
Principle payments on loans.

When the 4 above forces drain sufficient funds from the economy, you have a deflationary cycle (which we are in currency/starting to get out of).
Deflation makes it harder for business owners to turn a profit (because it makes it harder for customers to find money to spend on your store/shop).

Causing domino failure of businesses.

[sentinelscout]

IE: Net effect.
Loan = Create money for small business
Small business uses loan money to employ people

Loan money runs out, and the business either floats or sinks, banks refuse to loan/create more money for the small business.

The net beneficiaries of the loan if the loan fails are, the bank, the employees of the small business (employee gets paycheck, bank gets to create money out of nothing and hold it on its books as an asset which they can then create more money out of... and hold as assets and so on and so on to infinity dollars).
The net losers in the transaction are the consumer (prices rise because of that little bit of inflation that trickled into t he economy as a result of the business loan) and the business man who tried to start a small business.

------------
In reality, the system only serves to steal one persons prosperity (business man) and temporarily give it to another (employee).

If we were not on that system, any jobs that would have been created through the natural workings of a demand based/free market economy would be more... permanent because there would not be huge debts burdening the businesses, in the sense that businesses would be started more often than not by individuals who saved money and started the business, rather than took out huge loans.

Gold standard baby !!!

But we will never have it because the world is full of socialists   =/



Think about it... whats better? long term?
A system that promotes saving and investing.
Or
A system that promotes debt, risk and job instability.

Gold Standard = A fuel efficient sedan

Credit/Debt system = A fuel guzzling race car

In the sense that with a gold standard, you get where your going just a little slower and safer.
and with a debt based system, you endup crashing or running out of gas and coasting hoping that someone gives you a re-fill to keep going (more debt), eventually you make so many debt / refueling stops that it becomes annoying , because each time you stop to re-fuel the quality of the fuel gets worst and worst. (debt losses its cost effectiveness because the interest payments get bigger and bigger making it harder to keep up).




I don't even wana get started on the idea that inflation actually is a tax on the poor in a sense for the benefit of the rich.
Because the rich have huge debts (they all do) and their wages (earnings) tend to beat inflation because they are taxed less (probably half as much as a poor person).
The rich can eat the inflation because to them the difference is already accounted for (if they stop at a fancy resteraunt it doesn't matter to them if they spend 515$ instead of 500$ they probably wont even notice)
and they benefit from inflation because the debts that they owe and incur to live their lavish life styles are devalued through inflation.

But the poor guy who notices a 15$ increase on his gas stop / groccery stop has to eat that inflation and suffer so that Richy Riches credit card bill doesn't look so scary every month ^^


Get rid of inflation, tax the rich @ the same rate as everyone else, and you will see businesses start to pop up and hire.... (set top tax rate to like 15% for everyone).

[solmcaz]

So what I'm hearing here is immigration has no affect on unemployment or wages? Immigration is used to keep wages down . There should be no immigration to this country right now until the economy recovers. Why do you think they keep the borders open? Its cheep labor and profits from drug running and to keep the drug war going. I live in Phoenix. If you want to come here and take a look you will see the future of what the other states will look like as they filter into the rest of the country. We better stop this now or we will continue to be the third world country we have become.

[solmcaz]

Oh and one more thing, as they do filter into the rest of the states you will find they use fake ids, so when they rape your children and invade your house all they have to do is go back to Mexico or where ever else they came from, get a new id and come back and do it again. This happens in Arizona daily.   There has been allot of damage in the midwest from tornadoes. Watch who will be rebuilding the homes and businesses, you may notice something that's hard to swallow.

[sentinelscout]

Maybe i didn't address immigration enough.


I agree with the entire mentality that we should enforce our border, but i really don't think it keeps wages down.

Im sorta in a strange place right now with how I see the world , (i see everything as a macro - economic problem that came to fruition because of a flawed monetary model).


My solution to the border problem would be to simply enforce our border.

1) Legalize all drugs, cocaine, weed everything but things like heroin / home made drugs (in the sense that they set up a chemistry set to make methamphetamines)
One of the major reason the border is in chaos is because its so profitable to cross the border to sell drugs! legalize it and the free market will self regulate.

People don't buy certain foods because they are unhealthy, likewise people are smart enough to choose what they put in their body... those that will do drugs, will always do drugs even if its illegal.

2) Legalize immigration, provide a cheap and affordable way for people to come to the country and earn citizenship.

3) Get rid of the "if its born here" rule, make it the "it has to be conceived AND born here rule" or that the baby must carry atleast 60% of its term in the USA and the parent has to have atleast applied for citizenship.

4) Make it absolutely illegal for aliens to vote.

5) Build a WALL not a fence, it would provide jobs for the area, contract out each section of the wall.

6) Helicopter(s)  with thermal cameras patrolling border.

7) National Guard, um... they should be guarding... like... the nation maybe? IDK I really wonder what their job description is sometimes XD?



That being said, on a Macro scale, the immigration "problem" to me doesn't really matter that much, BUT im sure in some regions (localized economies) it may be a big problem!


Every state needs to become Right to Work state, in the sense that all citizens should have the right to work, bid on public works projects and there should be no union priority/rules.


To me Unions are evil, they take large portions of union wages (40~50%) before taxes and use that money to whatever ends the board wants... thats too much money and too much power in the hands of large "democratic/socialist" parties.

Unions, its a very dangerous thing! everyone should have the right to individual bargaining, but masses of people grouping together to do collective bargaining... it just ends bad imo... and you endup with strikes and such that disrupt the economy. . .

Unions = too much power, at the very least the % of wages going to "benefits" needs to be capped , especially the portion going to political contributions and such.


Govt = mafia
Banks = mafia
Unions = mafia (against the common worker man)


As a small construction business, my corporation has had a hard time with unions, they constantly... "extort" us.... they find one rule in a rule book of millions of meaningless rules that we "violate" and then they demand all sorts of money.... and you have to pay because New York is da freaking mafia.

At the end of completing any work, you would be lucky if you turned a profit, you purposefully have to complete union work... NOT USING union workers because its cheaper to pay the union off than to hire their workers.... (sorry but its true).


No one talks about it, because its taboo, that the union leaders are selling out their union members.

LOl the union leaders actually don't give two shits about their workers, they just want them to bitch and moan so that they can keep sucking out 45% of their pay check to feed themselves.... union leaders are among the biggest fat cats.


It's just good business sense.
--------

Ugh back on track , I wondered off a bit on unions (sry).

Yes , immigration is a problem, but I feel like you have to look at the human side of things as well, for the most part... you have a lot of good people coming to America, and I believe in the long run if they were given the opportunity to EARN citizenship and that if they respected our customs and rules that theres nothing wrong with them coming here to earn a living, the primary problem is that we don't distinguish the good from the bad, we group people together and stereotype them because it makes it easier for us to avoid triggering that part of our brain that has remorse and empathy, if we were in that persons shoes, we would want to be left alone as well and given the opportunity to make a better life for our offspring.


If we legalize immigration and make the process more streamline , we can efficiently sort the good from the bad.... that being said, I think everyone on the planet has the right to self expression , self empowerment, self determination, and the right to make a life, anywhere they choose.... and that no man has the right to turn them away or keep them from their goals , assuming that they do not stumble in their quest for happiness upon the rights of others.


I would use the analogy that, we are all living near a lake, we all drink from the lake, and we don't like it when other people we don't know come to drink from our lake.
So long as the new guy doesn't piss in our lake, im happy and more power to them.

[sentinelscout]

TLDR:

Whenever you try to get govt to "protect" workers, you endup harming them in the long run, or you endup with a new class of people (people with jobs opposed to people without).


To me its better to have 100 people working for 50$ an hour , than it is to have 50 people working 100$ an hour.

The more people, the more that gets done (many hands make light work).


The problem to this proposed model above is, that currently there isn't enough work for 100 people, so you endup with corporations cutting cost and hiring the cheapest labor.
So the problem really appears to be "there are no jobs".

But people never look at "why are there no jobs?".

And the reason is simply a monetary one and the problem arises from the scarcity that our monetary model creates. (the real problem is the monetary system).



Lets put it this way.
A town wants to build a bridge, but it has no money.

The town has in it, a steel mill, 1000's of unemployed iron workers, and easy access to fuel and equipment.

But it just lacks the money.

-_-.... um? we need a bridge, we have all the raw material and labor and energy for the bridge.... but.... we have no meaningless numbers scribbled on a piece of paper.

WHAT ARE WE STUPID?
My solution is build the bridge and worry about paying for it later.



Money needs to become a representation of the stored wealth of a community.
What money is now... is... well its worthless credit that is completely disconnected from the goods and services its supposed to represent.


Money is supposed to be... the assurance to a worker, that if he exports X amount of calories in his sweat and labor and energy, that he can expect to exchange that sweat equity for an equal amount of service from others in his community.

(I built a house, so the community keeps a record of my service of building that house by writing me a check , I know that if I ever need someone to build me a house like I did for the community that I can exchange that check back to the community and the community will return the favor)

Money = I scratch your back, you scratch mine.

And thats why money is backed by debt.... not in the sense that if you have money you get into debt, but that you are OWED a debt repayment by the state/issuer of the money where in the state is the cumulative effort of individual citizens.

XD


Shit my TLDR turned into a rant, im sorry.

[solmcaz]

Fences are expensive as are other measures to keep people out. The fix here maybe to enforce the laws already in place to prosecute the people hiring the illegals.

[sentinelscout]

Fences are expensive as are other measures to keep people out. The fix here maybe to enforce the laws already in place to prosecute the people hiring the illegals.

The laws currently in place do not apply to illegals.

Prosecuting Americans for hiring illegals is silly, because illegals often use Socials Security cards of legal citizens.... and / or fake Identification, all such action will do is close down businesses.


I propose solving the problems instead of throwing people in jail for no reason.


Feeding people for free in jail costs more money than a fence.
Building jails to house these people costs more money than a fence.
Running these jails (electricity, food, water, heat) costs more than a fence.


On the other hand , 50 people in helicopters with nigh vision/heat cameras flying 24/7 in patrol costs? probably less, hell you could do it with drones.


Solve the real causes of the business cycle (fraudulent banking system) , and there will be enough jobs for you, your illegal friend and everyone you know (assuming the energy like oil, gasoline, natural gas) are there to fuel industry.

Fix the banking system = following outcomes
Tax Code becomes pointless as there wont be huge deficit spending, Taxes would go down for everyone (employees and employers alike) which means when employees work long enough they may actually be able to save money and start a business of their own one day and hire more people.



What do you have against illegals working and making a living?
The only reason to hate someone for their success is if they have stolen it in some way from you! so... if there was enough prosperity for both individuals why alienate the other?

The problem is scarcity of jobs and the high cost of doing business in America due to over-taxation and over-regulation that crushes small businesses.


Illegal aliens are people.
You are people.
What makes you more valuable than the illegal alien?
What makes you more "entitled" to work for a living than him/her?
If he can do your job for less money, then you simply need to compete better for the same position or become "illegal" yourself.

To hate someone because they are not as "privileged" as you and because they have to work harder for less is... silly.
Hating someone for making a good business decision to increase their own well being is just being jealous.


I can't find steady work right now, but I don't blame illegals, I blame the system for the scarcity it created, that being said, I do what I have to in order to survive, legal or not because all animals in nature do what they must in response to stimuli and need for resources, to hate someone for being themselves and doing what they must makes no sense to me.
Being a U.S. Citizen has been of no benefit to me my entire life.... its really quite pointless in my opinion for any individual to affiliate themselves with any corporate state government.





That being said, the Chinese built a great wall to keep the Mongolians out.... without bulldozers, heavy machinery or any real readily available material.
It created a lot of "jobs".
It surved a purpose of sorts.
And now it has become a tourist attraction (boosting tourist industry).

Perhaps its time for the "great wall of America" to make its debut.


If you build it , they will come..
.
.
.
.
Then they will turn around because their ladder isn't tall enough and their shovels can't penetrate bed rock.

[solmcaz]

 The problem with all this is, instead of hiring 100 people for 50 bucks instead of 50 for a 100 is they will hire 50 at 50 bucks and make them do the job of 2 or 3. And what about the tunnels they use to smuggle people in? The immigration policies of today promote slave labor and that's it. I have worked in the hotel industry here in Phoenix for 20 years as a director of engineering and have witnessed all this first hand. I have worked in many differant hotels so its not just one. I was a task force Director of engineering as well traveling all over the country, the same story everywhere i went. I visited 20 hotels in one year all over the nation and witnessed some things that would make a billygoat puke.

[sentinelscout]

The problem with all this is, instead of hiring 100 people for 50 bucks instead of 50 for a 100 is they will hire 50 at 50 bucks and make them do the job of 2 or 3. And what about the tunnels they use to smuggle people in? The immigration policies of today promote slave labor and that's it. I have worked in the hotel industry here in Phoenix for 20 years as a director of engineering and have witnessed all this first hand. I have worked in many differant hotels so its not just one. I was a task force Director of engineering as well traveling all over the country, the same story everywhere i went. I visited 20 hotels in one year all over the nation and witnessed some things that would make a billygoat puke.

well if you are talking about slavery and trafficking people thats a criminal issue.

Its not slavery if its voluntary though (Imo).


If its illegal for a citizen to hire an illegal, than report whoever you see doing it.

There are larger macro scale issues that if fixed I believe will remedy most of the problem.

Attacking immigration and employers is just another band-aid fix attempt , it wont stop the hemorrhaging of jobs.

If the economy continues on its current path, costs are going to sky rocket for the average small business, it will only force more hiring of illegals.


Theres no difference between a small business here that hires an illegal, and a corporation hiring people in china to manufacture goods (its the same net effect).

Why would you allow an employer to hire people OUTSIDE of the country, but not hire people INSIDE of the country? it makes no sense!

Another major gripe is the stupidity of it all and waste of resources due to bad logistics.... (human resources and energy resources alike).


For example, we IMPORT probably more than half our oil, yet we EXPORT half the oil we produce in this country to nations around the world.
What sense does that make? on a national level? why not just NOT EXPORT oil and IMPORT LESS?

Why EXPORT JOBS?


If someone is in this country (legal or not) they are going to do what any human being would in order to survive and eat, if they cant find work, they are going to resort to violence.