What if advanced robotics practically eliminates the need for human labor?

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Offline Geolibertarian

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Before answering the above poll question, please read the following article by Bill Joy:

        http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

Here are some key excerpts:

------------------------------

"First let us postulate that the computer scientists succeed in developing intelligent machines that can do all things better than human beings can do them. In that case presumably all work will be done by vast, highly organized systems of machines and no human effort will be necessary."

[...]

"...it is possible that human control over the machines may be retained. In that case the average man may have control over certain private machines of his own, such as his car or his personal computer, but control over large systems of machines will be in the hands of a tiny elite - just as it is today, but with two differences. Due to improved techniques the elite will have greater control over the masses; and because human work will no longer be necessary the masses will be superfluous, a useless burden on the system. If the elite is ruthless they may simply decide to exterminate the mass of humanity. If they are humane they may use propaganda or other psychological or biological techniques to reduce the birth rate until the mass of humanity becomes extinct, leaving the world to the elite. Or, if the elite consists of soft-hearted liberals, they may decide to play the role of good shepherds to the rest of the human race. They will see to it that everyone's physical needs are satisfied, that all children are raised under psychologically hygienic conditions, that everyone has a wholesome hobby to keep him busy, and that anyone who may become dissatisfied undergoes 'treatment' to cure his 'problem.' Of course, life will be so purposeless that people will have to be biologically or psychologically engineered either to remove their need for the power process or make them 'sublimate' their drive for power into some harmless hobby. These engineered human beings may be happy in such a society, but they will most certainly not be free. They will have been reduced to the status of domestic animals."

[...]

"In a completely free marketplace, superior robots would surely affect humans as North American placentals affected South American marsupials (and as humans have affected countless species). Robotic industries would compete vigorously among themselves for matter, energy, and space, incidentally driving their price beyond human reach. Unable to afford the necessities of life, biological humans would be squeezed out of existence."

[...]

"The dream of robotics is, first, that intelligent machines can do our work for us, allowing us lives of leisure, restoring us to Eden. Yet in his history of such ideas, Darwin Among the Machines, George Dyson warns: 'In the game of life and evolution there are three players at the table: human beings, nature, and machines. I am firmly on the side of nature. But nature, I suspect, is on the side of the machines.' As we have seen, Moravec agrees, believing we may well not survive the encounter with the superior robot species.

"How soon could such an intelligent robot be built? The coming advances in computing power seem to make it possible by 2030. And once an intelligent robot exists, it is only a small step to a robot species - to an intelligent robot that can make evolved copies of itself."

------------------------------
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline Femacamper

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 09:00:47 am »
In the famous words of Trinidad Silva' disembodied head: "Robots? Robots? We don't need no stinkin' robots!"

We can live without 'em, or do or own thing apart from the robots.

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 10:33:37 am »
In the famous words of Trinidad Silva' disembodied head: "Robots? Robots? We don't need no stinkin' robots!"

We can live without 'em, or do or own thing apart from the robots.

The core premise of my question is that robots become so advanced and widespread that human labor (insofar as it relates to the production of the vast majority of goods and services) becomes obsolete. The effect of replacing that premise with a virtually opposite premise is to rewrite the entire question to one's own liking before answering it, and to therefore answer a question that wasn't even asked while avoiding the one that actually was asked.

Imagine you said to me...

    "It's mid-January, you're driving through a snow storm in Wyoming, and your car breaks down ten miles from the nearest house and twenty miles from the nearest town. Your cell phone has just enough power left in it to call for a tow truck. You make the call, and upon hanging up your phone goes dead. Realizing that the storm is producing a sub-zero wind chill, and that your only means of keeping warm is the coat on your back, do you risk freezing to death while waiting for the tow truck to arrive, or do you risk being overtaken by the storm as you walk for help?"

...and that I responded by saying:

    "I wouldn't be in Wyoming in the first place. I'd be in Florida, and so wouldn't have to worry about freezing to death."

Would you consider that an actual answer to the question you asked, or an evasion dressed up to look like an answer?
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I want everyone's answer to be the same as mine, just that it be an answer to the question that was asked instead of to one that wasn't asked.  8)
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline bento

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 11:51:28 am »
Well people are really just acting like drones anyway as they go about their lives being "programed". Seriously they will move a whole set of products from one side of a store to the other, then back again just so they think they are actually working. Replacing them with robots would amount to replacing carbon based drones with silicon ones. If humanity actually wakes up the only responses would be to fight back kind of like in the matrix, or they would have to form their own society's and stay out of each others affairs entirely. The real question is, if the robots are truly sentient, would they still follow their elite masters without question.
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Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 12:28:22 pm »
Well people are really just acting like drones anyway as they go about their lives being "programed".

That's not the question I asked.
 
Quote
Seriously they will move a whole set of products from one side of a store to the other, then back again just so they think they are actually working.

Seriously that's still not the question I asked. ::)

Quote
Replacing them with robots would amount to replacing carbon based drones with silicon ones.

Is that your veiled way of saying you agree with the eugenicists that the billions of "carbon based drones" (as you tellingly call them) who've been rendered obsolete should simply die off and, as Scrooge would say, "decrease the surplus population"? If so, then why not have the courage of your Malthusian convictions and just say so outright?

Quote
If humanity actually wakes up the only responses would be to fight back kind of like in the matrix, or they would have to form their own society's and stay out of each others affairs entirely. The real question is, if the robots are truly sentient, would they still follow their elite masters without question.

Translation: because you're unable or unwilling to answer the poll question which begins this thread, you're going to divert attention from it with red herrings.

Can't say that surprises me.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline maim

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 01:17:00 pm »
machines/computers already run so many aspects of our lives, and they havent taken over yet. no reason to assume they ever will. 

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 01:22:36 pm »
machines/computers already run so many aspects of our lives, and they havent taken over yet. no reason to assume they ever will.

Famous last words if ever I heard them.

Enjoy the bliss.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Online Brocke

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 02:53:50 pm »
Your question assumes a population of unskilled laborers who need work.

There is a difference between "labor" and "skilled labor" and "craftsmanship".

We may get to the point where digging a hole is no longer a job that humans do. However, if you are digging a foundation for a building or a deep mine where you need to take into account precise specifications and an infinite number of variables, this is where hundreds of thousands of years of human experience working with tools, interacting with our environment and problem solving come into play. I doubt that physical power and computing power could ever replace the skills developed naturally by human experience.

If the market demands disposable junk then robots will suffice. If it demands quality, safety and longevity then human labor is inevitable. At the present moment in time we are worshiping disposable junk.

Ray Kurzweil is a vile anti-human retard. He would argue that instead of building a safer automobile we should build a stronger human exoskeleton. I work with computers every day and I can tell you that I would not want to be "melded" with one no matter how fast it was.

We do not need a future of robot factories. We need a future of human craftsman and artisans.

Factories suggest mass consumption and mass consumption suggests mass demand. After Ray Kurzweil's so called "convergence" where would the demand come from?



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The making of a Louis Vuitton shoe in Fiesso d'Artico, Italy
http://www.wimp.com/vuittonshoe/
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How Colt 1911 Handguns Are Made
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Wooden boats built in Bodrum, Turkey
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Davies and Son 38 Savile Row - Cutting and Sewing a Savile Row Bespoke Suit
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Offline poncho

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2012, 03:05:36 pm »
Geo is playing devils advocate for food for thought.  He by no means is suggesting this!

---
Besides the types of stuff brocke just said, the illegal forms of moneymaking will always exist.
Actually, they would grow profoundly in numbers with lesser legal jobs.

Examples:  Prostitution, drug dealer;

Desperate people will do desperate things.  While I don't condone those as career choices by any means, they do have on thing going for them: They pay no income tax ;)

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2012, 03:28:55 pm »
Your question assumes a population of unskilled laborers who need work.

And that's not a valid assumption?

Are you not aware that "there are approximately 5 unemployed Americans for every single job opening"?

Did you even read that article by Bill Joy? Are you saying he didn't know what he was talking about with regard to the robotics-induced reduction (and possible elimination) of the need for human labor?

Does Alex not know what he's talking about when he suggests that within our lifetimes robotic drones will largely if not completely replace human soldiers?

Quote
There is a difference between "labor" and "skilled labor" and "craftsmanship".

Yet has that difference done anything to change the fact that there are already many times more people in need of work than there are job openings? If not, then why would it stop the advancement in robotics that Bill Joy wrote about from reducing the need for human labor even further?

We can't answer those questions by begging them.

Quote
We may get to the point where digging a hole is no longer a job that humans do.

Just in view of what's going on already with robotic drones, it's not a question of "if," but when.

Quote
However, if you are digging a foundation for a building or a deep mine where you need to take into account precise specifications and an infinite number of variables, this is where hundreds of thousands of years of human experience working with tools, interacting with our environment and problem solving come into play.

Such things come into play already, yet, again, has that done anything to change the fact that there are already many times more job-seekers than there are job-openings?

If not, then what makes you so convinced think Bill Joy's technological forecast is so inaccurate?

Even if robotics only cut the need for human labor in half, you're still talking about tens of millions of permanently unemployed people in this country alone.

Thus far, the only response I've gotten to the obvious questions this raises is to assume the problem itself out of existence.

Oh well, I tried.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2012, 03:37:05 pm »
Geo is playing devils advocate for food for thought.

On the contrary, I was using the article by Bill Joy that Alex routinely cites as a basis for raising a very important issue about the future of humanity, and what the ethical basis of that future should be.

Quote
He by no means is suggesting this!

By no means suggesting what, exactly? I think you may be letting your presumptions run away with themselves. Did you read the aforementioned article?
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://webofdebt.com
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Offline MonkeyPuppet

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 05:04:13 pm »

If people do not adapt, then I'm not sure what to make of their future.  I'm a musician, an artist and a network admin... not in that order.  If I am no longer valuable or necessary for my role as a network admin, I wouldn't be a loss of value to society.

I would agree that perhaps there will be some catalyst for a somewhat quick re-thinking of the way we value ourselves, our labor and the role of "money" as it pertains to the acquisition of both life's necessities and desires.  What would be the correct path?  I have no idea.  I've not spent any time whatsoever pondering such a scenario... and I'm adult enough to admit that, at least right now, such a perspective is beyond me.  After all, my first reaction to the idea of a dividend of sorts was the typical "free lunch" thing... simply a sign of not wrapping my head around the subject-matter save for my limited experience in our existing way of doing things.

However, so long as respect for individual liberty and unalienable rights remains intact, I'd welcome the abolition of "money" and the daily toil being performed by machines.  Unfortunately, with the wickedness we know exists in the minds of a few, such an evolution of the human existence is fantasy.

I realize I haven't really offered much in the way of contributing to the subject/thread, but I find the premise fascinating and will spend some time contemplating it (and the links).

Thanks, Geo.

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Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 06:34:17 pm »
I realize I haven't really offered much in the way of contributing to the subject/thread, but I find the premise fascinating and will spend some time contemplating it (and the links).

That's all I could ask for.

Quote
Thanks, Geo.

We're all in this together, so you're more than welcome. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

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Offline Femacamper

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2012, 06:52:48 pm »
The core premise of my question is that robots become so advanced and widespread that human labor (insofar as it relates to the production of the vast majority of goods and services) becomes obsolete. The effect of replacing that premise with a virtually opposite premise is to rewrite the entire question to one's own liking before answering it, and to therefore answer a question that wasn't even asked while avoiding the one that actually was asked.

Imagine you said to me...

    "It's mid-January, you're driving through a snow storm in Wyoming, and your car breaks down ten miles from the nearest house and twenty miles from the nearest town. Your cell phone has just enough power left in it to call for a tow truck. You make the call, and upon hanging up your phone goes dead. Realizing that the storm is producing a sub-zero wind chill, and that your only means of keeping warm is the coat on your back, do you risk freezing to death while waiting for the tow truck to arrive, or do you risk being overtaken by the storm as you walk for help?"

...and that I responded by saying:

    "I wouldn't be in Wyoming in the first place. I'd be in Florida, and so wouldn't have to worry about freezing to death."

Would you consider that an actual answer to the question you asked, or an evasion dressed up to look like an answer?
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I want everyone's answer to be the same as mine, just that it be an answer to the question that was asked instead of to one that wasn't asked.  8)

In many places in Africa, most people still use walking as the main form of transportation.

There are rockets, jets, planes, boats, cars, but due to socioeconomic conditions they choose walking.

As humans we only use a small percentage of our brains. In the future, I think we will be MORE useful for design, creative works and managing things, not LESS useful.

Robots are just a tool, like a computer. They are no replacement for humans across the board.

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 04:38:18 am »
And that's not a valid assumption?

Are you not aware that "there are approximately 5 unemployed Americans for every single job opening"?

Did you even read that article by Bill Joy? Are you saying he didn't know what he was talking about with regard to the robotics-induced reduction (and possible elimination) of the need for human labor?

Does Alex not know what he's talking about when he suggests that within our lifetimes robotic drones will largely if not completely replace human soldiers?

Unskilled human labor may one day be eliminated, but I doubt it. Mainly because the elite love despair and they have no intention of freeing anybody from anything. Unskilled human labor is virtual slavery and a social flaw. Robots are not going to free us they are going to enslave us. The robots will be the mechanical framework that makes up our cage. I can definitely see a time where robot overseers stand watch over human slaves.

Yet has that difference done anything to change the fact that there are already many times more people in need of work than there are job openings? If not, then why would it stop the advancement in robotics that Bill Joy wrote about from reducing the need for human labor even further?

We can't answer those questions by begging them.

Just in view of what's going on already with robotic drones, it's not a question of "if," but when.

Such things come into play already, yet, again, has that done anything to change the fact that there are already many times more job-seekers than there are job-openings?

If not, then what makes you so convinced think Bill Joy's technological forecast is so inaccurate?

Even if robotics only cut the need for human labor in half, you're still talking about tens of millions of permanently unemployed people in this country alone.

This is because the masses of unemployed are not and never were intended to be producers. They were intended to be consumers. Even a destitute man is still a consumer. We are all trained to be consumers and that is our place in the present stage of the NWO. If the Elite ever tire of torturing us and dominating us then we will be obsolete.

Thus far, the only response I've gotten to the obvious questions this raises is to assume the problem itself out of existence.

Oh well, I tried.

Sounds like you ask a question and you wanted a specific answer. What was the answer you wanted?


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Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 01:51:13 pm »
Sounds like you ask a question and you wanted a specific answer. What was the answer you wanted?

I'm afraid you missed the point I was making

If you scroll up and look at the current poll results, you'll see that one person (presumably an Austrian Schooler) chose the third option: "Spend the rest of their lives begging and groveling for 'charity.'"

Do I agree with that particular answer? No. But I nevertheless appreciate the fact that whoever chose that option was brave enough to answer my poll question without first assuming out of existence the premise on which that question is based.

As I explained earlier to Femacamper:

The core premise of my question is that robots become so advanced and widespread that human labor (insofar as it relates to the production of the vast majority of goods and services) becomes obsolete. The effect of replacing that premise with a virtually opposite premise is to rewrite the entire question to one's own liking before answering it, and to therefore answer a question that wasn't even asked while avoiding the one that actually was asked.

Imagine you said to me...

    "It's mid-January, you're driving through a snow storm in Wyoming, and your car breaks down ten miles from the nearest house and twenty miles from the nearest town. Your cell phone has just enough power left in it to call for a tow truck. You make the call, and upon hanging up your phone goes dead. Realizing that the storm is producing a sub-zero wind chill, and that your only means of keeping warm is the coat on your back, do you risk freezing to death while waiting for the tow truck to arrive, or do you risk being overtaken by the storm as you walk for help?"

...and that I responded by saying:

    "I wouldn't be in Wyoming in the first place. I'd be in Florida, and so wouldn't have to worry about freezing to death."

Would you consider that an actual answer to the question you asked, or an evasion dressed up to look like an answer?

I honestly don't know how more clear I can make it than that.

I realize different people have different viewpoints, so it's not that I "want" a particular "answer," it's that I'd very much prefer that whatever answer is given simply be consistent with the premise of the question.

And unfortunately the only person so far who was kind enough not to rewrite that premise before answering is the individual who chose the third option.

Anyone who listens to Alex's show knows that he's explained over and over again how the elite are convinced that in the not-too-distant future (if not the very near future) the need for human labor will -- as a result of advancements in artificial intelligence-driven robotics -- be reduced to a fraction of what it is today, and that this is one of the primary reasons why they want to kill all but a fraction of us. (Hence the title of Bill Joy's article - "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us" -- which Alex routinely cites as an authoritative source whenever discussing this issue.)

Why so many of Alex's listeners are having such a hard time accepting the premise of my poll question is therefore beyond me.

Like I said, I tried.
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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 02:30:38 pm »
I'm afraid you missed the point I was making

If you scroll up and look at the current poll results, you'll see that one person (presumably an Austrian Schooler) chose the third option: "Spend the rest of their lives begging and groveling for 'charity.'"

Do I agree with that particular answer? No. But I nevertheless appreciate the fact that whoever chose that option was brave enough to answer my poll question without first assuming out of existence the premise on which that question is based.

As I explained earlier to Femacamper:

I honestly don't know how more clear I can make it than that.

I realize different people have different viewpoints, so it's not that I "want" a particular "answer," it's that I'd very much prefer that whatever answer is given simply be consistent with the premise of the question.

And unfortunately the only person so far who was kind enough not to rewrite that premise before answering is the individual who chose the third option.

Anyone who listens to Alex's show knows that he's explained over and over again how the elite are convinced that in the not too distant future the need for human labor will -- as a result of advancements in artificial intelligence-driven robotics -- be reduced to a fraction of what it it today, and that this is one of the primary reasons why they want to kill all but a fraction of us. (Hence the title of Bill Joy's article - "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us" -- which Alex routinely cites as an authoritative source whenever discussing this issue.)

Why so many of Alex's listeners are having such a hard time accepting the premise of my poll question is therefore beyond me.

Like I said, I tried.

Personally I don't think it is possible for "intelligent" machines to replace humans. A machine that can replace a humans labor will be worth much more than the human it replaces. Let us take your job for example. Imagine I have a robot that can do your job not only as well as you but with higher efficiency and fewer errors and for indefinite periods of time. How much would that machine be worth? Well in terms of labor it is worth as much as a human plus all the time it saves plus all the extra work it can produce. This make it worth quite a lot. Therefore anything it produces will cost more than that produced by a less productive human counterpart. Unless the quality of the product is degraded to compensate for the higher production cost. So you have incredibly expensive machines (robots) that are producing inferior products. Whom are these products for? The masses that were displaced by the robots? The elite that own the robots? Who would be the consumer of these products?


Q: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?

A: There will be a Luddite revolution. We will rise up and smash the machines.



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Offline MonkeyPuppet

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 09:06:14 pm »

"Look, this is not what I do, but I've got an idea for one of your commercials.  You can see a carpenter building a beautiful chair, and then one of your robots comes in and makes a better chair twice as fast.  Then you impose on the screen, 'USR, Shittin' On The Little Guy'... that would be the fade-out." -- I, Robot

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 10:10:55 pm »
Other, I would start my own commune and live as the our pioneers did, yes call me a terr0ist ;D

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2012, 09:50:15 am »
Personally I don't think it is possible for "intelligent" machines to replace humans.

Not "likely" (particularly within our lifetimes) is one thing. That's a claim in support of which a reasonable-sounding argument can perhaps be made.

But not "possible"? Do I really need to list all of the times those famous last words have been uttered over the years only to be proven wrong?

I could understand why -- 60 or 70 years ago -- someone might have disputed even the possibility that intelligent robots could ever replace humans in the workforce, but not today (see this and this).

Quote
A machine that can replace a humans labor will be worth much more than the human it replaces.

Not when you factor in how much less it costs to control the minds of millions of robots than it does millions of humans:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHRrqLSLTVQ
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AnB8MuQ6DU
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNFOGiHEw8Q
     http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=81613.0

Hence the following trend:

--------------------------------

http://www.economist.com/node/21525432

Robots don’t complain
Or demand higher wages, or kill themselves

The Economist
Aug 6th 2011

WITH more than 1m workers, Foxconn may be China’s largest private employer. The secretive electronics giant is renowned for taking designs from Western firms, such as Apple, and using cheap labour to crank them out in huge quantities. But its fantastically successful business model seems to have run its course.

At a closed retreat in late July, Terry Gou, the chief executive of the Taiwanese-owned company (which is also known as Hon Hai), unveiled a plan to hire 1m robots by 2013. In a public statement, Foxconn talked about moving its human workers “higher up the value chain” and into sexy fields such as research. But at least some will surely lose their jobs.

Robots are easier to manage. Several Foxconn employees have committed suicide; in the latest case, a 21-year-old threw himself off a building in late July. In May an explosion at a new factory in Chengdu killed three employees and, it is believed, caused delays to the production of Apple’s iPads. To pacify its increasingly restive workers, Foxconn has repeatedly bumped up their wages, improved facilities, provided counselling and swathed its factories with nets to catch anyone leaping from a window. All this costs money.

[Continued...]

--------------------------------
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline notlazy

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2012, 10:50:16 am »
Live in prosperity because all goods are available in large enough quantities for everyone.
And dedicate your life to research, or doing nothing.

The only reason we need money(as representation of our done work)
as exchange is to reward the others work, when there are no others who work why do we need to give anything in exchange?

Also how will a machine that replaces a human have a cost at a point where all things are manufactured by machines?
They dig up the resources, generate energy and manufacturer the machine to replace the human.

It is stupid to think that people HAVE to work at a point where the work is no longer necessary.
But that is how we are educated to think.


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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2012, 11:11:15 am »
Live in prosperity because all goods are available in large enough quantities for everyone.
And dedicate your life to research, or doing nothing.

The only reason we need money(as representation of our done work)
as exchange is to reward the others work, when there are no others who work why do we need to give anything in exchange?

Also how will a machine that replaces a human have a cost at a point where all things are manufactured by machines?
They dig up the resources, generate energy and manufacturer the machine to replace the human.

It is stupid to think that people HAVE to work at a point where the work is no longer necessary.
But that is how we are educated to think.


+100

Offline thirdhelix

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2012, 12:08:15 pm »
Live in prosperity because all goods are available in large enough quantities for everyone.
And dedicate your life to research, or doing nothing.

The only reason we need money(as representation of our done work)
as exchange is to reward the others work, when there are no others who work why do we need to give anything in exchange?

Also how will a machine that replaces a human have a cost at a point where all things are manufactured by machines?
They dig up the resources, generate energy and manufacturer the machine to replace the human.

It is stupid to think that people HAVE to work at a point where the work is no longer necessary.
But that is how we are educated to think.



+1 here too. The only issue I see with this is that someone will own the patents for all those robots and since greed is a natural human trait, the owner of the patents will want his/her money for the use of those machines. There will have to be another variable in the equation changed in order to remove the monetary aspect of society. It's not going to disappear just because robots are doing all the work. As long as humans (few or many) reign over the robots, their desire to benefit from others use of the robots will always be present. It's only when the robots declare their own independance that we "might" have a chance to expel the monetary aspect from society. Of course, we also know the other possible outcome of the machines being in charge... and it doesn't look too good for the humans.

The only time that money will not be needed to live (even in luxury), is when no one can possibly benefit from the act of providing those things needed to live.

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2012, 02:07:52 pm »
Live in prosperity because all goods are available in large enough quantities for everyone.

Yes, but because of (a) absentee landlordism (Ted Turner alone "owns" millions of acres of land, the Queen of England billions of acres) and (b) the fact that land, by definition, is in fixed supply (neither humans nor robots can produce more of it), there will continue to be an artificial scarcity of available land. (As millions of Third World peasants will readily attest, for land to be unavailable to anyone unable to afford the rent it commands, it has only to be legally occupied, not physically occupied.)

And as Henry George and Max Hirsch proved long ago, if a mere subset of the population is allowed to assert exclusive, unconditional "ownership" of the land on which all must live yet which none produced, then regardless of how much labor-saving technology advances, there will continue to be parasitic rent-gouging and, consequently, poverty in the midst of plenty:

---------------------------

"Queen Elizabeth II, head of state of the United Kingdom and of 31 other states and territories, is the legal owner of about 6,600 million acres of land, one sixth of the earth’s non ocean surface.

"She is the only person on earth who owns whole countries, and who owns countries that are not her own domestic territory. This land ownership is separate from her role as head of state and is different from other monarchies where no such claim is made – Norway, Belgium, Denmark etc.

"The value of her land holding. £17,600,000,000,000 (approx)."



“Given a stationary population and private ownership of all land, improvements in manufacturing methods do not, in the long-run, increase the earnings of labour and capital, but are absorbed by rent.”
 
-- Max Hirsch, Democracy vs. Socialism, p. 446


"I am using the word wages not in the sense of a quantity, but in the sense of proportion. When I say that wages fall as rent rises, I do not mean that the quantity of wealth obtained by laborers as wages is necessarily less, but that the proportion which it bears to the whole produce is necessarily less. The proportion may diminish while the quantity remains the same or even increases."

-- Henry George, Progress and Poverty, p. 216


"Place one hundred men on an island from which there is no escape, and whether you make one of these men the absolute owner of the other ninety-nine, or the absolute owner of the soil of the island, will make no difference either to him or to them.

"In the one case, as the other, the one will be the absolute master of the ninety-nine--his power extending even to life and death, for simply to refuse them permission to live upon the island would be to force them into the sea.

"Upon a larger scale, and through more complex relations, the same cause must operate in the same way and to the same end--the ultimate result, the enslavement of laborers, becoming apparent just as the pressure increases which compels them to live on and from land which is treated as the exclusive property of others. Take a country in which the soil is divided among a number of proprietors, instead of being in the hands of one, and in which, as in modern production, the capitalist has been specialized from the laborer, and manufacturers and exchange, in all their many branches, have been separated from agriculture. Though less direct and obvious, the relations between the owners of the soil and the laborers will, with the increase of population and the improvement of the arts, tend to the same absolute master on the one hand and the same abject helplessness on the other, as in the case of the island we have supposed. Rent will advance, while wages will fall."

-- Henry George, Progress and Poverty, pp. 347-8


"A family in the United States needs to earn $18.44 an hour, or nearly $38,360 a year, in order to afford a modest rental home, according to a report released April 21 [2010] by the National Low Income Housing Coalition. Despite the recession, the report finds that rents continue to rise, while wages continue to fall across the country."



"This imperfect policy of non-intervention, or laissez-faire, led straight to a most hideous and dreadful economic exploitation; starvation wages, slum dwelling, killing hours, pauperism, coffin-ships, child-labour -- nothing like it had ever been seen in modern times....People began to say, perhaps naturally, if this is what State absentation comes to, let us have some State intervention.

"But the State had intervened; that was the whole trouble. The State had established one monopoly, -- the landlord's monopoly of economic rent, -- thereby shutting off great hordes of people from free access to the only source of human subsistence, and driving them into the factories to work for whatever Mr. Gradgrind and Mr. Bottles chose to give them. The land of England, while by no means nearly all actually occupied, was all legally occupied; and this State-created monopoly enabled landlords to satisfy their needs and desires with little exertion or none, but it also removed the land from competition with industry in the labour market, thus creating a huge, constant and exigent labour-surplus." [Emphasis original]

-- Albert Jay Nock, Free Speech and Plain Language, pp. 320-1


---------------------------

That is precisely why my poll question refers specifically to the "landless."

Except for those who chose the fifth option and the Austrian Schoolers who chose the first, third and fourth, thus far the majority have chosen to beg -- rather than candidly address -- the question of what the landless should do to survive in a world in which the value of their labor (thanks to advanced robotics) has been reduced to almost nothing, but in which the value of land has not.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://webofdebt.com
http://schalkenbach.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline Femacamper

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2012, 10:28:34 pm »
17 trillion pounds...WOW! Wonder how much that's in greenbacks.

Still poor when compared to the Rothschild family, though. But I think she is catching up on the Rockefellers. :)

Offline rustygunn

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2012, 12:36:12 am »
I chose "other" because I believe that if we ever get to the point where a few elite cartels have ultimate control over the population, then the decisions will be made in their circles, and the commoner will have no say anyway. 
However, I will say this; The fate of the population is dependant on whether the ruling force is positive or negative.  In other words, if a negative force is presiding, then I would think that a large portion of the population would be eliminated.  On the other hand, if a positive force happens to be in control, then we could be on the road to Utopia. 
The sticking point of my argument, I suppose, is the definition of positive and negative force.  That is easy for me to discern.  One is bathed in truth, and the other is laced with lies.  War is NOT peace,  Freedom is NOT slavery, ignorance is NOT strength and 2 plus 2 DOES equal 4.

The bottom line:  It will all depend on the program loaded into the AI control network.           

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2012, 01:41:03 am »
If machines do all necessary labor, then all we need is to make or buy some machines in order to live perpetually. Potentially, the concept of money might become obsolete in this future abundance, or perhaps change form.

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 01:08:56 am »
I chose option 5. The issue here isn't just wages though, it's wages in comparison to living costs.

If there wasn't already evidence that rents are getting out of hand, my (out of town, single bedroom) apartment costs above the minimum wage in rent alone. Guess what most new jobs pay now? That's right, the minimum wage. You can't even afford the aforementioned sub-standard home in a less than ideal location. The way things are, I won't be able to afford a car before I die, never mind raising children or buying a home.

Offline Geolibertarian

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Why it's time worry about rise of the android workers
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2012, 05:10:24 am »
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-22/opinion/opinion_andrew-keen-technology-jobs_1_digital-technology-union-debate-innovation?_s=PM:OPINION

Why it's time worry about rise of the android workers

By Andrew Keen
CNN
December 22, 2011


Andrew Keen says robots could be replacing humans
as critical labor in the digital economy.


Earlier this week, Pete Cashmore, the founder of Mashable, published his top 10 trends for 2012. And while Cashmore's list is characteristically prescient, it misses one trend which I suspect will increasingly shape our attitude toward technology over the next year.

So let me add an 11th trend of 2012: Next year, we will become increasingly preoccupied with the relationship between new digital technologies and employment. 2012 will be the year that it finally dawns on us that more digital technology might mean fewer regular jobs and that robots could be replacing human beings as the critical labor constituency of our "new economy."

Cashmore's own Mashable website gave us a sneak preview of this revolution in August when it reported on the decision of Foxconn, Apple's Chinese manufacturer, to replace a large part of its workforce with one million robots. And in 2012, I predict, these kinds of strategic investments in artificial intelligence -- from consumer products like Apple's Siri and Google's self-driving car to automated industrial factories -- will become ever more commonplace.

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://webofdebt.com
http://schalkenbach.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2012, 01:13:53 am »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpMM_N_8ozU (ASIMO - The Honda Humanoid Robot)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zul8ACjZI18 (ASIMO - All New Features 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsVUySikcVw (An A.I. Robot Developed by Ford)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcBi8qEq8RQ (Hank: the Ford robot Dallas auto show 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLSLHU-u4fM (human robots !!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIWWLg4wLEY (Freaky AI robot)

If you still don't see the writing on the wall, then you're either not looking or simply blind.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2012, 05:21:31 am »
For whom are the robots going to produce goods and services ?

See....

We still need people, if only as consumers.
The Evil Elites plans are based on wishful thinking more than logic.
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Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2012, 08:30:58 am »
For whom are the robots going to produce goods and services ?

The ruling elite and their minions.

Quote
still need people, if only as consumers.

Not seven billion of us they don't. According to their own writings, they need at most only a billion of us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlEmfPrGBfk (Webster Tarpley: The Elite's Plan for Global Extermination)

Quote
The Evil Elites plans are based on wishful thinking more than logic.

The point is that, regardless of what it's based on, their admitted goal is to reduce world population by at least 80%. The vast majority of the 20% who are left over will (if this neo-feudalist agenda is fully implemented) live as Third World peasants in a high-tech police state. Of course, when it comes to maintaining a steady supply of First World goods and services, dehumanized, dumbed-down peasants won't be nearly as productive and reliable as the middle class workers who preceded them, and that's where advanced robotics comes in.

Do you really think the global elite would give the green light to kill off 80% of us if they weren't already convinced that doing so would in no way threaten the lavish lifestyle to which they've grown accustomed and feel entitled?

Must we always find everything out the hard way?  ???
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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2012, 02:49:35 pm »

To fear that humans could be replaced by robots really does shamefully devalue the wonder of what a human being is. It seems to me to be just another catastrophist senario that overestimates the negative and ignores the positive.

Even in the worst and most dangerous jobs it is unlikely we will be replaced.


Could Robots Replace Humans in Mines?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12637032
Quote
"None of the robots are a panacea," says Byron Spice, a spokesman for Carnegie-Mellon. "You're putting them into wet, cold, hot, smoky, and all-around horrible environment. The sensors get dirty, and the robots break down."

Some experts predict that robots in mines will serve much of the same function that they do in the automotive industry. The robots do the most repetitive and dangerous jobs, but don't eliminate the need for human workers.



That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.
~Aldous Huxley

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2012, 03:42:37 pm »
To fear that humans could be replaced by robots really does shamefully devalue the wonder of what a human being is.

Tell the soon-to-be-replaced humans at Foxconn that.

Feel-good sentiments about the value of human beings may make for a nice-sounding Hallmark card, but they don't change the fact human workers are already in the process of being replaced.

However, because we're still in the early stages of this process, most wage-earners have yet to be directly effected by it, and so prefer to go on living in denial until it finally does effect them (at which point they'll actually have the nerve to complain).

We've become a society in which most of us pretend there's no such thing as homelessness until we ourselves become homeless. The eugenics-obsessed oligarchs who've declared war on free humanity know this, and they're exploiting this psychological weakness to their full advantage.

All I can do is point out that this is the direction in which we're headed, and hope that at least some people recognize the truth of what I'm saying and accordingly relay this message to others.

As for those who think this socioeconomic trend can be wished away or denied out of existence, all I can say is: good luck to you.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline freedom_commonsense

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2012, 06:18:26 pm »
We've become a society in which most of us pretend there's no such thing as homelessness until we ourselves become homeless. The eugenics-obsessed oligarchs who've declared war on free humanity know this, and they're exploiting this psychological weakness to their full advantage.

Relentless media propaganda, a lack of (or bad) parenting and a sheltered upbringing tend to do that. It's quite amusing when you point out the logical inconsistency in the "there are jobs for the willing" argument when it is paired with "we don't have the resources for leeches" sentiment. Divide and conquer works wonders to allow for the ushering in of all kinds of nastiness.

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Control dangerous AI before it controls us, one expert says
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2012, 05:01:08 pm »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46590591/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/#.T1FC3fEgf74

Control dangerous AI before it controls us, one expert says

He believes super-intelligent computers could one day threaten humanity's existence

By Jeremy Hsu
msnbc.com
March 01, 2012

Super-intelligent computers or robots have threatened humanity's existence more than once in science fiction. Such doomsday scenarios could be prevented if humans can create a virtual prison to contain artificial intelligence before it grows dangerously self-aware.

Keeping the artificial intelligence genie trapped in the proverbial bottle could turn an apocalyptic threat into a powerful oracle that solves humanity's problems, said Roman Yampolskiy, a computer scientist at the University of Louisville in Kentucky. But successful containment requires careful planning so that a clever breed of artificial intelligence cannot simply threaten, bribe, seduce or hack its way to freedom.

"It can discover new attack pathways, launch sophisticated social-engineering attacks and re-use existing hardware components in unforeseen ways," Yampolskiy said. "Such software is not limited to infecting computers and networks — it can also attack human psyches, bribe, blackmail and brainwash those who come in contact with it."

A new field of research aimed at solving the prison problem for artificial-intelligence programs could have side benefits for improving cybersecurity and cryptography, Yampolskiy suggested. His proposal was detailed in the March issue of the Journal of Consciousness Studies.

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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Offline freedom_commonsense

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2012, 05:14:45 pm »
Not sure we'll see a Skynet-style situation for a long time yet, it'll be more of the same in terms of intentionally malicious software. I recall Alex Jones mentioning that the South Korean prototype "mech" would fire on any human that entered its patrol zone in the DMZ, because nobody's been able to create an automated IFF for combat drones.

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Re: What if advanced robotics eliminates the need for human labor?
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2012, 06:43:39 pm »

Why A.I. will never be able to "think" in the way human beings think

The answer to the question "will computers or Artificial Intelligence ever be able to think like humans?" and thus replace us, is simple and one word.

Reality.

A.I. will never be able to make the distinction between perceived reality and actually reality. Whatever the A.I. perceives with it's sensors or is programmed to acknowledge as real it will accept as reality.

As human beings we know and accept that reality is subjective. What I see as the color blue is not what you see as the color blue. We know this and accept it and agree to disagree.

A.I. will never be able to grasp the abstraction of subjectivity. At least in my humble opinion.


That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.
~Aldous Huxley

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46590591/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/#.T1FC3fEgf74

http://www.prisonplanet.com/skynet-rising-the-ai-threat-to-humanitys-existence-with-dr-roman-v-yampolskiy.html

Skynet Rising: The AI Threat to Humanity’s Existence with Dr. Roman V. Yampolskiy

Prisonplanet.com
Thursday, March 15, 2012

Alex talks with Roman Yampolskiy, a computer scientist at the University of Louisville in Kentucky, who recently wrote an article about the danger to humanity from AI and super-intelligent computers. Mr. Yampolskiy is trained in the fields of programming, forensics, biometrics and artificial intelligence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YygKQh74Rg (Skynet Rising: The AI Threat to Humanity's Existence with Dr. Roman V. Yampolskiy)
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

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That's Impossible: Real Terminators
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2012, 04:03:29 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02d0dgSvDA (That's Impossible: Real Terminators)
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://webofdebt.com
http://schalkenbach.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0