How to get rid of the IRS

[dueyftw]

The main problem with the IRS is that the whole system is corrupt beyond repair.

1) Graduated income tax is only fair if it is applied to everyone. (Its not)

2) The whole system becomes more complex each year.

3) Very few complain and fewer get attention from main stream media.

 If you would like not to pay income tax or just to have in a simpler form YOU need to stand up.

But "If I don't pay or send in a tax return, I will get fined or go to jail." Rightly so.

So the real solution is to send in your income tax forms that you have done yourself with out the help of a Tax preparer or software.

Think about it.

1) Those vultures that make money off the income tax system would be out of business for lack of income.

2) The IRS would be overwhelmed with paper work.

Send it in with the long form and sit back and wait for your amended return. You will not get it right. I haven't in the last 3 years. The best part of this that the more complicated your return is the longer a real person has to sit down and go through to find the mistakes. At some point they would have to make up an new law requiring everyone to have someone to help file their taxes for them (possibility nil) or the system will change for the better, I really don't think it can get any worse.

Duey

[Jackson Holly]

Just for general information:  ~> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html

History of the Income Tax in the United States
Source: Tax Foundation.


The nation had few taxes in its early history. From 1791 to 1802, the United States government was supported by internal taxes on distilled spirits, carriages, refined sugar, tobacco and snuff, property sold at auction, corporate bonds, and slaves. The high cost of the War of 1812 brought about the nation's first sales taxes on gold, silverware, jewelry, and watches. In 1817, however, Congress did away with all internal taxes, relying on tariffs on imported goods to provide sufficient funds for running the government.

In 1862, in order to support the Civil War effort, Congress enacted the nation's first income tax law. It was a forerunner of our modern income tax in that it was based on the principles of graduated, or progressive, taxation and of withholding income at the source. During the Civil War, a person earning from $600 to $10,000 per year paid tax at the rate of 3%. Those with incomes of more than $10,000 paid taxes at a higher rate. Additional sales and excise taxes were added, and an “inheritance” tax also made its debut. In 1866, internal revenue collections reached their highest point in the nation's 90-year history—more than $310 million, an amount not reached again until 1911.

The Act of 1862 established the office of Commissioner of Internal Revenue. The Commissioner was given the power to assess, levy, and collect taxes, and the right to enforce the tax laws through seizure of property and income and through prosecution. The powers and authority remain very much the same today.

In 1868, Congress again focused its taxation efforts on tobacco and distilled spirits and eliminated the income tax in 1872. It had a short-lived revival in 1894 and 1895. In the latter year, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution.

In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations. In fiscal year 1918, annual internal revenue collections for the first time passed the billion-dollar mark, rising to $5.4 billion by 1920. With the advent of World War II, employment increased, as did tax collections—to $7.3 billion. The withholding tax on wages was introduced in 1943 and was instrumental in increasing the number of taxpayers to 60 million and tax collections to $43 billion by 1945.

In 1981, Congress enacted the largest tax cut in U.S. history, approximately $750 billion over six years. The tax reduction, however, was partially offset by two tax acts, in 1982 and 1984, that attempted to raise approximately $265 billion.

On Oct. 22, 1986, President Reagan signed into law the Tax Reform Act of 1986, one of the most far-reaching reforms of the United States tax system since the adoption of the income tax. The top tax rate on individual income was lowered from 50% to 28%, the lowest it had been since 1916. Tax preferences were eliminated to make up most of the revenue. In an attempt to remain revenue neutral, the act called for a $120 billion increase in business taxation and a corresponding decrease in individual taxation over a five-year period.

Following what seemed to be a yearly tradition of new tax acts that began in 1986, the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1990 was signed into law on Nov. 5, 1990. As with the '87, '88, and '89 acts, the 1990 act, while providing a number of substantive provisions, was small in comparison with the 1986 act. The emphasis of the 1990 act was increased taxes on the wealthy.

On Aug. 10, 1993, President Clinton signed the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1993 into law. The act's purpose was to reduce by approximately $496 billion the federal deficit that would otherwise accumulate in fiscal years 1994 through 1998. In 1997, Clinton signed another tax act. The act, which cut taxes by $152 billion, included a cut in capital-gains tax for individuals, a $500 per child tax credit, and tax incentives for education.

President George W. Bush signed a series of tax cuts into law. The largest was the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001. It was estimated to save taxpayers $1.3 trillion over ten years, making it the third largest tax cut since World War II. The Bush tax cut created a new lowest rate, 10% for the first several thousand dollars earned. It also established a slow schedule of incremental tax cuts that would eventually double the child tax credit from $500 to $1,000, adjust brackets so that middle-income couples owed the same tax as comparable singles, cut the top four tax rates (28% to 25%; 31% to 28%; 36% to 33%; and 39.6% to 35%).

The Jobs and Growth Tax Relief and Reconciliation Act of 2003 accelerated the tax rate cuts that had been enacted in 2001, and temporarily reduced the tax rate on capital gains and dividends to 15%. In 2004, the U.S. was forced to eliminate a corporate tax provision that had been ruled illegal by the World Trade Organization. Along with that tax hike, Congress passed a cornucopia of tax breaks, which for individuals included an option to deduct the payment of whichever state taxes were higher, sales or income taxes.

Two tax bills signed in 2005 and 2006 extended through 2010 the favorable rates on capital gains and dividends that had been enacted in 2003, raised the exemption levels for the Alternative Minimum Tax, and enacted new tax incentives designed to persuade individuals to save more for retirement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Our quarrel is with the 16th Amendment ... was it legally passed? Can we repeal it?
As long as it stands the Rothschilds can continue to ream us out ... the USA cash cow
is needed to continue the raping and pillageing ... to continue their tax & murder schemes.

[dueyftw]

There are two types of taxes:

1) Tax to pay for a goods and services that is calculated by a percentage.

Gas tax to pay for roads and bridges. Percentage of the value of gas.

School tax, Percentage of the value of ones home. Or added in to the cost of rent by a land lord.

Sales tax, Percentage of sales.

and on and on with each tax being straight forward. I don't need an accountant to help me figure out my school tax for the year.

2) Income Tax; payed with the calculation of how much you were paid hourly in the year on a graduated scale, minus deductions of whether your over 65 or blind, pulse the mount of investment income based on whether you held the investment of less or longer than a year, minus how much you gave to a charity up to a predetermine limit, pulse any business income, minus deductions for operating expenses and equipment, pulse subtraction of any investment losses up to a certain amount with special exceptions and on and on and on

Personally I don't care if it's legal or not. There are people who make their living on complicity of the Income Tax System and they will make sure that judges and the Right other people look the other way. It is time that we need to take back our lives and not put up with such nonsense.

And just as people can shut down internet site by DOS attacks the American people can shut down the IRS by information overload. And the cool thing is its legal and they can't do nothing about it.

Duey

[MonkeyPuppet]

In 1862, in order to support the Civil War effort, Congress enacted the nation's first income tax law. It was a forerunner of our modern income tax in that it was based on the principles of graduated, or progressive, taxation and of withholding income at the source. During the Civil War, a person earning from $600 to $10,000 per year paid tax at the rate of 3%. Those with incomes of more than $10,000 paid taxes at a higher rate. Additional sales and excise taxes were added, and an “inheritance” tax also made its debut. In 1866, internal revenue collections reached their highest point in the nation's 90-year history—more than $310 million, an amount not reached again until 1911.

This was, as written, a duty.  That's not to mean it wasn't the first "income tax", but it was imposed quite differently than the current tax.

In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations. In fiscal year 1918, annual internal revenue collections for the first time passed the billion-dollar mark, rising to $5.4 billion by 1920. With the advent of World War II, employment increased, as did tax collections—to $7.3 billion. The withholding tax on wages was introduced in 1943 and was instrumental in increasing the number of taxpayers to 60 million and tax collections to $43 billion by 1945.

The 16th Amendment did not give Congress the legal authority to tax income.  Congress could always, by authority granted in the Constitution, tax income.  The Supreme Court has stated time and again that the 16th Amendment did not extend Congress' power to tax income to new or except subjects.  This means that if you could not be made liable before the Amendment, you were not made liable after.

Our quarrel is with the 16th Amendment ... was it legally passed? Can we repeal it?
As long as it stands the Rothschilds can continue to ream us out ... the USA cash cow
is needed to continue the raping and pillageing ... to continue their tax & murder schemes.

1. It doesn't matter whether it was ratified properly.  The fact that the vast majority of Americans remain ignorant of its actual meaning, despite a plethora of jurisprudence, is the only real tragedy here.  Repealing it would do none of things that uninformed people think it would do.  In fact, I would go as far as to say that repealing it would actually hurt the federal government in a way most couldn't comprehend, allowing disreputable douchebags like the Rothschilds and Morgans to abuse certain investment instruments as they did prior to its passing.  It would, however, not relieve anyone of their current problem... ignorance.

2. Very true.  The MAL-application of the law, perpetrated principally by equally ignorant private payers, provides a river of money with which Congress uses to guarantee the loans it takes out from the FED.  The problem isn't the law, it's the People's lack of understanding.


I find it odd how not a single other member of this forum will take the time to read Dave Champion's "Income Tax: Shattering the Myths", yet they will spend hours perusing websites that contain only partial truths coupled with a mountain of disinformation.  We all know "something" is wrong with the income tax, but few take the time to understand exactly the nature of that malfeasance.  The true enemy here is ignorance... there is a cure.  He's compiled 20 years of research into a few hundred pages that cover EVERY detail and answer EVERY question, even addressing the very misinformation that keeps being peddled by others as "truth".

[MonkeyPuppet]

1) Graduated income tax is only fair if it is applied to everyone. (Its not)

The rest of your post(s) in this thread are predicated on this misinformation, so I'll just address it directly.

Quite simply... bullshit.

We're talking about FEDERAL taxation here, right?  So, why not look at the Constitution, in context with the recognition of unalienable rights, and the history of jurisprudence in this country?  When one actually takes the time to study this subject, instead of relying on supposition, the equally ignorant information gleaned from peers and family members, and from websites that dispense with even more misinformation, one can get a good grasp on the actual law.

Congress does not have the authority to impose a tax on everyone living in the 50 states of the union... not the kind of taxing power exercised through the income tax anyway.  You own your labor, and you have an unalienable right to contract that labor for an agreed remuneration.  Congress has no authority to demand a portion of the fruits of that labor... neither before you get a paycheck, nor after the fact.  Given that, who is responsible for making it seem as if they can?  Look no further than your payer... they are erroneously using federal tax forms for which they have no legal authority to use.  The contents of those information returns, more often than not, are blatant lies.  Generally speaking, the vast majority of Americans are not among those upon whom Congress has imposed the tax.  However, those information returns are used as the ONLY evidence, regardless of actual fact, that a tax must be calculated from the activity which generated the income.

[Jackson Holly]

MonkeyPuppet:

The 16th Amendment did not give Congress the legal authority to tax income.

SIXTEENTH AMENDMENT:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

~~~~~~~~~~~

The language could not be any more clear
.

[MonkeyPuppet]

MonkeyPuppet:
SIXTEENTH AMENDMENT:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

~~~~~~~~~~~

The language could not be any more clear
.

I understand your position, but it is wrong.

From Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920)...

"The Sixteenth Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the amendment was adopted."

... and further...

"As repeatedly held, this [the 16th Amendment] did not extend the taxing power to new subjects, but merely removed the necessity which otherwise might exist for an apportionment among the states of taxes laid on income.

A proper regard for its genesis, as well as its very clear language, requires also that this amendment shall not be extended by loose construction, so as to repeal or modify, except as applied to income, those provisions of the Constitution that require an apportionment according to population for direct taxes upon property, real and personal. This limitation still has an appropriate and important function, and is not to be overridden by Congress or disregarded by the courts.

In order, therefore, that the clauses cited from article 1 of the Constitution may have proper force and effect, save only as modified by the amendment, and that the latter also may have proper effect, it becomes essential to distinguish between what is and what is not 'income,' as the term is there used, and to apply the distinction, as cases arise, according to truth and substance, without regard to form. Congress cannot by any definition it may adopt conclude the matter, since it cannot by legislation alter the Constitution, from which alone it derives its power to legislate, and within whose limitations alone that power can be lawfully exercised."

Referencing Brushaber v Union Pacific Railroad Co., 240 U.S. 1 (1916), Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 U.S. 103 (1916), and Peck v. Lowe, 247 U.S. 165 (1918)

Looking directly at Stanton...

"But, aside from the obvious error of the proposition, intrinsically considered, it manifestly disregards the fact that by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed."

[MonkeyPuppet]

By the way, I don't use the word "ignorant" loosely when I refer to others who, while being vocal or otherwise outspoken on the subject of federal taxation, are simply uninformed to a degree necessary to understand the subject in its entirety, contextually, and within the confines of statutory construction.

Ignorant - adj.
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.


I don't mean it as an insult at all.  It is simply an accurate description of the vast majority of Americans.  I also choose it, as opposed to derogatory words like "stupid", because I know that unlike "stupid", ignorance need not be a permanent condition and is remedied by study... and through careful attention to those whom have taken the time to research the subject properly.

I am no stranger to the seeming knee-jerk reaction by others to outright defend the mal-application of the law, nor to those whom have succumb to mere supposition as a basis for their "understanding" of the subject matter.  However, being an optimist, I would hope that at least the latter group will eventually swallow their pride, and in light of new information, continue their research.

This is a subject of LAW, not feelings.  Fact-based research is required to understand it.  We are all instructed very early on in life to never question the validity of the mal-application of the tax.  Often times, in lashing out against what we know to be wrong, we latch onto seemingly pragmatic explanations.  Sometimes these incorrect assumptions lead people to make grave mistakes regarding taxation.  There is a right way and wrong way to implement knowledge... getting it right is paramount with regard to this particular subject.  This means that the information we utilize to proceed in that endeavor must be correct... feelings be damned.

[egypt]

Then, there's the entire Strawman aspect...

One gentleman offered to  use a pre-1933 coin to pay his taxes (he was in court) and the case was dropped... (read They Own It All - Including You)  This action of paying with the pre-1933 coin included in the payment took it out of the bankruptcy court system...

The idea is that America is under bankruptcy and the court system is not about justice, but rather they are bankruptcy courts about finances/payments.

[MonkeyPuppet]

Then, there's the entire Strawman aspect...

One gentleman offered to  use a pre-1933 coin to pay his taxes (he was in court) and the case was dropped... (read They Own It All - Including You)  This action of paying with the pre-1933 coin included in the payment took it out of the bankruptcy court system...

The idea is that America is under bankruptcy and the court system is not about justice, but rather they are bankruptcy courts about finances/payments.

There is that.

But, federal taxation is not predicated on the strawman... be it in theory or reality.  It really is quite simple, AFTER obtaining a complete understanding of statutory construction and jurisdiction... I can't stress those enough as a compliment to the following factoid.  The ONLY evidence, regardless of actual fact, that the IRS/Treasury uses to assess and pursue a tax liability from the vast majority of Americans are W2's and 1099's (information returns) submitted by 3rd parties.  This information is not vetted, it is not confirmed to correctly reflect the activity which generated the amounts shown, and there is no procedure for debating the information once it is submitted.

That makes it not reliant upon one legal theory/practice or another, but rather completely and totally upon the exercise of fraud by 3rd parties (employers, private payers, etc) due to their own ignorance, only to be confirmed, regardless of actual fact, by the noted individual when they submit a 1040.  The IRS/Treasury doesn't have to worry about facts if enough of the People have no concept of them.

[dueyftw]

1) Graduated income tax is only fair if it is applied to everyone. (Its not)


The rest of your post(s) in this thread are predicated on this misinformation, so I'll just address it directly.

Quite simply... bullshit.

MR 'MonkeyPuppet ' you think the us income tax is fair? Treats everyone equal. Please can I have what your smoking. It seems that you are not reading my post or understanding a simple concept. If you do not like to pay taxes the way they are done now, simple make your returns as long and complicated as possible.

Stop arguing over is the 16th or some other law is right or wrong. Start doing something, now.

Buy stocks on line. Sell them. Go to another online company and buy and sell stock again. Do this every week or more. You are not trying to make money but generate forms to add to the complicity of your return.

Start your own company, get a dba. List all costs of the company. Try to make a few dollars. Make sure you keep all receipts for all cost, including pencils. If it is used only for your business, write it off.

If you have some real balls, line 20 put in 'illegal income' 20 dollars

Is this a lot of work, ya. But you will be part of a growing movement of people who are fighting the Government and the IRS by taking away their time away.

And remember this rule. "I will not pay anyone to help me with my income tax"

Also "It is not my fault if I did the paper work is wrong, I did the best I could."

Duey

 

[MonkeyPuppet]

MR 'MonkeyPuppet ' you think the us income tax is fair? Treats everyone equal. Please can I have what your smoking.

Not one sentence of what I've written in this thread, or on this entire forum regarding taxation, could be construed as supportive of the current mal-application of the law.  It would seem I am not the one who is inebriated at this juncture.

It seems that you are not reading my post or understanding a simple concept. If you do not like to pay taxes the way they are done now, simple make your returns as long and complicated as possible.

Oh I read your posts.  I just don't agree.  See, the IRS computer (ACS = Automated Collection System) does not care how "long and complicated" your 1040 return may be.  Sure, there are times when a piece of information contained in a filing may prompt the necessity for an actual human being to review the return, but that is very rare.

Another aspect that you have not considered is that the IRS does not care how much time it spends in its collection duties.  That is its sole purpose... the assessment and collection of federal taxes.  The ACS may let a "long and complicated" yet incorrect return get through, but rest assured that it also sent a follow-up notice to an agent.  Unlike those who file, the IRS is not restricted to 3 years of correcting returns... they can go for 7 and sometimes 10 years depending on the circumstances.

Stop arguing over is the 16th or some other law is right or wrong. Start doing something, now.

I'm not arguing anything.  This is an research and education forum.. if you haven't noticed.  I realize you posted your suggestions for "action" in the Activism section, but that does not make it any more relevant to positive action.

The 16th Amendment subject is a widely misunderstood one.  New people come to this forum, and those who may have been here a while and previously avoided the topic, and dispense with their new-found knowledge of the 16th from other sources.  There's a couple of us that seemingly have to repeatedly correct them before they go too far with it.  Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting angle, but the piece of that puzzle that most are missing is the actual purpose and intent of the 16th (according to SCOTUS) and the completely misunderstood [null] effect that repealing it would have.

Buy stocks on line. Sell them. Go to another online company and buy and sell stock again. Do this every week or more. You are not trying to make money but generate forms to add to the complicity of your return.

Start your own company, get a dba. List all costs of the company. Try to make a few dollars. Make sure you keep all receipts for all cost, including pencils. If it is used only for your business, write it off.

As I stated, this will not affect the IRS at all.  This amounts to "spinning your wheels", as it were.  The ACS is not a punch-card machine, but rather a very sophisticated piece of equipment designed specifically to read, understand, interpret and interpolate the 1040 form and accompanying documentation.

Worst case, you'd trigger an audit.  Here's the kicker... having filed a 1040, you've admitted that whatever amounts shown are to be considered when calculating gross income.  There is no way to say "oh, my bad, nevermind".  If you don't shit your pants and do whatever the IRS agents tell you to do during your "interview" with them, you'll surely soil yourself when the IRS Criminal Investigation team comes knocking.  Oh, and the only venue you will be allowed to plea for your ass is Tax Court... a venue in which ALL defendants are guilty, you're just there for them to decide how hard their going to ram their federal c**k up your ass.

If you have some real balls, line 20 put in 'illegal income' 20 dollars

Is this a lot of work, ya. But you will be part of a growing movement of people who are fighting the Government and the IRS by taking away their time away.

And remember this rule. "I will not pay anyone to help me with my income tax"

Also "It is not my fault if I did the paper work is wrong, I did the best I could."

Duey

So misguided.  If this is the angle you're wanting to play, good luck with that.  It does nothing for the ACTUAL tax honesty movement, but whatever.

Real "balls", with regard to federal taxation, would be demonstrated by becoming knowledgeable on the law itself, 150 years of American jurisprudence on the subject, the writings of the Founders regarding taxation and the jurisdictional limitations of the federal government with regard to the people of the 50 states of the union.

No, your way is childish and ultimately pointless.

The problem with the current mal-application of federal taxation is not political, bureaucratic or one that can be remedied by electing this person or abolishing that law or whatever.  It is one of ignorance... something that can only be cured with factual information that lends to educating the masses.

I know you think you have a solution, or at least a way to work towards one, but you are wrong.  Do some research and affect real change... some of us are already doing more than you care to understand.

[PeaceAndFreedom]

Excellent postings on this thread by Monkeypuppet. I would also recommend Champion's book and site along with the materials of SEDM.org. The latter is helpful with suggesting procedures and preparations to make if the tax gestapo harrasses you because of those pesky third party reports some ignorant employer or business sent them, that gives the IRS an equitable paper-trail pretext for attempting collection actions anyway.

I have not paid or filed since 2000, and have the decade of IRS scare letters to show for it. Practical tip: nothing ever proceeds to a "criminal investigation stage" as I repeatedly request by FOIA request to their Philadelphia office to verify if a legal, correct, and complete has been conducted in relation to the (bogus) allegations of a tax liability, including penalties (any penalty they also allege are also based on an assessment, that is also lacking in legality, correctness, and completeness). The IRS never completes any such correct or lawful assessment, and has had to rescind liability and penalty notices it has sent me time and again. If you fight them administratively and stand your ground, they do back off, or at least are kept at bay.

[MonkeyPuppet]

Excellent postings on this thread by Monkeypuppet. I would also recommend Champion's book and site along with the materials of SEDM.org. The latter is helpful with suggesting procedures and preparations to make if the tax gestapo harrasses you because of those pesky third party reports some ignorant employer or business sent them, that gives the IRS an equitable paper-trail pretext for attempting collection actions anyway.

I have not paid or filed since 2000, and have the decade of IRS scare letters to show for it. Practical tip: nothing ever proceeds to a "criminal investigation stage" as I repeatedly request by FOIA request to their Philadelphia office to verify if a legal, correct, and complete has been conducted in relation to the (bogus) allegations of a tax liability, including penalties (any penalty they also allege are also based on an assessment, that is also lacking in legality, correctness, and completeness). The IRS never completes any such correct or lawful assessment, and has had to rescind liability and penalty notices it has sent me time and again. If you fight them administratively and stand your ground, they do back off, or at least are kept at bay.

Everyone's situation is different, as you know.  While there are certain generalizations that are true, the administrative battle is almost always slanted in their favor... due to the existence of what we know is the ONLY evidence they use against us... the information returns submitted by 3rd parties.  However, it is absolutely a good idea to inform, formally and with notarization, one's correct status with their payer... just in case.

More often than not (read: almost always), private payers will be extremely (to put it lightly) reluctant to even hear the truth.  They will even go as far as to refuse access to the company accountant and tax attorneys... due to fear of causing a problem (which is actually impossible... we're just talking, right?).  Hell, some may even fire the squeaky wheel out of fear.

We MUST stand our ground, though.  Education is the key.  You're right, Mr. Champion's book is paramount as it contains the most comprehensive collection of FACTUAL information on the subject... including a complete exploration of the erroneous positions taken by others in the tax honesty movement (typically to their own detriment!).

As always, for those interested in the truth, I keep a link to Dave's book and his educational website in my signature.  The importance of this knowledge (and getting the truth out) cannot be overstated.  The battle is NOT with the IRS, people!!  The IRS/Treasury are merely following the law as it is written... they are not required to clarify it at all, which makes their actions more-often-than-not lawful (except, of course, for their filing of "notice of tax lien" nonsense).  HOWEVER, they are acting upon a very narrow latitude governed by statute and regulation.  The real enemy here is ignorance, manifested and employed by private payers that submit erroneous data that amounts to FRAUD.  Understanding this is most important.  All other yabbering about the income tax is pointless.

[dueyftw]

Oh I read your posts.  I just don't agree.  See, the IRS computer (ACS = Automated Collection System) does not care how "long and complicated" your 1040 return may be.  Sure, there are times when a piece of information contained in a filing may prompt the necessity for an actual human being to review the return, but that is very rare.

Who's telling you this? So when I staple my w4 forms, 1099 and schedules their is a machine that staples them, reads them and figures out the correctness of my return? Remember this is a paper return with receipts of all sizes and folds and smudges.

I think you been 'snow jobbed' big time. But I been wrong before, so show me a video of the super duper computer, I'm sure their a video of it in action some where on the net. I have work in or for IBM on and off for years, seen the best main frames. Love to see this thing in action handling the mess of paper that comes in most envelopes to the IRS.

From the IRS website PDF for ACS:

4. How will each data item be verified for accuracy, timeliness, and completeness?
ACS has validity checks built into the automated system. Real-time error and Batch errors identify data entry errors by the CRs.
Validity checks are performed on the data, the action requested, and access to the system. The data validity and action requested validity is performed while the operator is using the system, and an error message is displayed which will validate the data entered or action requested. An employee may receive an error message because they modified a field incorrectly or requested an action that is not allowed. The error message will be displayed on the screen, and the operator must decipher the message and correct the error. Until the error is resolved the operator is not able to leave the screen. No data can be saved until all edits have been performed successfully and an operator has corrected the problems.

~Until the error is resolved the operator is not able to leave the screen.~
Ah, this takes time by a real person

Worst case, you'd trigger an audit.  Here's the kicker... having filed a 1040, you've admitted that whatever amounts shown are to be considered when calculating gross income.  There is no way to say "oh, my bad, nevermind".  If you don't shit your pants and do whatever the IRS agents tell you to do during your "interview" with them, you'll surely soil yourself when the IRS Criminal Investigation team comes knocking.  Oh, and the only venue you will be allowed to plea for your ass is Tax Court... a venue in which ALL defendants are guilty, you're just there for them to decide how hard their going to ram their federal c**k up your ass.

As far as an audit, cool. REMEMBER, I do my taxes to the best of my ability. I don't spend a whole lot of time on knowing each and every rule. And guess what; I get an amended return. I don't cheat or try to brake the rules, I just fill the forms out and send them in. If enough people would do the same thing the system would shut down. They rely on people who use computers to do their taxes.

Oh, and even if the government is immune to law suites, their employes are not. I would like to see the tax court try to bypass my 'DUE Process'

I think that you have only read about those who cheat, because I have yet to find a case where just errors have caused fines or imprisonment. They can't, the bad PR would kill them.

I know you think you have a solution, or at least a way to work towards one, but you are wrong.  Do some research and affect real change... some of us are already doing more than you care to understand.

Nope, I'm right and your wrong. You spent too much time and effort on your position to change. Hey that's OK if you feel that you need to spend your hard earned money getting help to fill out forms in the fear that they might be wrong.

For the people don't believe that the ACS computer robot can open letters, unstaple them, scan copies of receipts of all different sizes it's time to go back to filling out your own taxes. This will work, and you get to screw the main cause of the complicated Income Tax System. All those who make their living 'Helping'=F-ing you.

Duey

[MonkeyPuppet]

I'm really really having a hard time understanding your issue here.

First of all, you're making the mistake of ASSuming that I support the current mal-application of federal tax law.. specifically the income tax.  You could not be more wrong.  If you would only take a moment to read what I've written here as well as elsewhere all over this forum on just about every thread regarding the income tax for the past 2 years or so.

As for the ACS, I never once posited that it was some manner of mechanical marvel, adept at decoupling papers and collating documents by hand.  Indeed, there are operators who review minor issues that allow the computer to do its job, but these are not agents and they couldn't give less of a shit about the actual merit, content, or accuracy of a return.  They simply do what is necessary to allow the computer to continue.  Oh, and surprise, everything is scanned in... the paper merely adds the necessity of a paper handling system (which is both mechanical, like post offices have, and comprised of operators).  You have to remember, the IRS/Treasury does not care how much time or resources they invest into the collection process... your attempts to complicate their job are pointless.

Now, the part of your last post that is most telling to someone like me, who is well-versed on the law, statutory construction and the history of American jurisprudence on the subject of taxation, I find your statement of "I do my taxes to the best of my ability" the most revealing statement ever.  I would think the IRS would as well should you ever actually wake the f**k up and learn a thing or two.  You believe that Congress has and can impose the income tax upon you and your labor... yes, that's a stretch, I'd imagine you actually believe that they've imposed a tax upon the fruits of your labor.  I'm just reading between the lines here.

I'm not a tax attorney nor an accountant, and I've not personal knowledge of your background or the nature of the activity which generates your income, but you might want to do the due diligence to make sure that before you lay claim to that liability, that it actually does apply to you.  This is the type of research that the vast majority of Americans have not and will not do.  They, like you, have been lied to their entire lives and believe to their core that the federal Congress can do whatever it pleases... even steal from you to fund any program or dictate that they see fit.  I would argue that you are mistaken, just like everyone else.

Subtitle A of the Internal Revenue Code (found at Title 26 of the United States Code), like other statutory codifications of law that rely upon jurisdiction and an understanding of statutory construction for proper interpretation, only applies to whom it applies.  Congress, and therefore the IRS/Treasury, is not all-powerful.  They are constrained by the limits placed upon their station by law.. principally the Constitution, but also further explored by the Supreme Court since its inception.  The federal government is primarily the foreign affairs department for the States collectively.  Bearing this in mind, it does not take a law degree to understand the simple concept that therefore the funding mechanism for this entity in our Republic must come from this primary function.  Sure, there are ancillary functions/mechanisms, but they are specialized and clearly not funded lawfully by a generalized tax scheme.  Given the foreign nature of the federal government, would it not make sense to conclude that the utilization of this function is what provides the basis for jurisdiction with regard to taxation?  This is exactly what the Founders envisioned and designed.  The only exception being during times of great necessity where a direct apportioned tax may be laid... something that Congress has never done to date.  We glean from this that Congress has utilized its power to tax via excise and tariff, both of which rely exclusively upon a very narrow class of person which much be detailed for assessment and collection, still jailed by that jurisdictional limitation thing.

But, I'm getting way too deep into the subject for a forum post.  If you'd actually read what has been written here on this forum by myself and couple others who are researched on the subject, you'll find a great wealth of information.  I would also recommend, as has PeaceAndFreedom, the book "Income Tax: Shattering the Myths" by Dave Champion.  It contains every piece of detailed information on the subject to aide people in continuing their first-hand research to the Nth degree.

Stop assuming.  Research the law.  You'll find your approach wanting.

[dueyftw]

When you pull the plug on a boat, it will sink. (trust me I know!) Such a small thing can cause a large thing to fail.

Sorry but I think your problem is that you fail to understand a simple concept because you have vested in your truth that the IRS has bent the rules to meet their own needs. I agree too. Simply put; signing 'under penalty of perjury' you give up your constitution fifth amendment. So to then threaten anyone who refuses to sign 'Should' be a crime. Traffic tickets don't say 'under penalty of perjury' nor anything else unless it is a confession of guilt. I haven't done anything wrong, so why am I force or even threaten to sign such a statement?

From the IRS:

Constitutional Argument - Filing an IRS Form 1040 violates the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination or the Fourth Amendment right to privacy.

    The Truth: The courts have consistently held that disclosure of the type of routine financial information required on a tax return does not incriminate an individual or violate the right to privacy.

But if that's true then there is no good reason for 'under penalty of perjury' unless they DO intend to violate my constitution fifth amendment. IRS does willfully violates the law and in more way than this one. Being well-versed on the law doesn't help if those who run the show simply don't care.

The problem is your not going to win, not  now, not tomorrow, not ever. Why? and it not because their is no one to stand up. It's because there are just too many who have money interests in keeping the status quo. Take away their income and you won half the battle. Or simply put: Stop Using Tax Preparers and Tax software.

The other half is the IRS and computers. Everyone relies on them. The IRS has cut the employees that deal with paper returns, so right now before they require everyone to file by computers. (It happen with me, I no longer can file a paper return for collection of NYS sales tax)

Filing a paper return is actually easier than using a computer and here's why. The computer program will ask you question that don't pertain to you. And they ask and ask and ask making sure it hasn't missed anything.

But the whole point is to use up the IRS time. Here is an example;

I went to a vocational school to take a class that teaches a skill that is part of my work. The union covered all but 260 dollars of the total cost. (1700) I filled out a form to take a 260 dollar deduction. They send me back a not  saying that they need a receipt of the expense. I send them in one along with a new form. The deduction is not allowed because??? Who knows? My point is that it takes a real person to deal with this sort of stuff. And time. So if they are under staff or if enough people file returns by paper soon they will need one IRS worker for every 50 who files. Not going to happen. So they will change. Remember that IRS is only a collection agency of your government. Who is are government? Our politicians. Make it cost to collect revenue to the point of change. 1 dollar to every 100 will effect no change. 20 to 50 dollars to every 100 will.

Everyone has something like this almost every year. If you file a 1040ez your spinning your wheels.

Last thing:
MonkeyPuppet you have an agenda. Like it or not you are a small part of the problem. I did bother to look at some of the material on your website and if the IRS goes away or just stops bending and contorting the law no one would be interested in what you say or buy your book.

Duey

[MonkeyPuppet]

Last thing:
MonkeyPuppet you have an agenda. Like it or not you are a small part of the problem. I did bother to look at some of the material on your website and if the IRS goes away or just stops bending and contorting the law no one would be interested in what you say or buy your book.

Alright, dipshit, this is getting annoying.  I've tried real f**king hard up to this point, but you're just too f**king stupid apparently.

It's not MY f**king book!  Hell, the shit I've posted here and elsewhere on this forum aren't even MY statements, but rather a paraphrasing of what the Supreme Court of the f**king United States has said time and again regarding the f**king income tax.

THE INCOME TAX, AS WRITTEN, DOES NOT APPLY TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

Now, if you feel that bombarding the IRS with paperwork will in ANY way address this fact, have at it.  From what I know from my years of research on the subject is that a mere deluge of administrative crap will have zero effect on the actual law and only prompt, at best, a modification to administrative procedure with regard to receiving returns.  The law will not change.  The mal-application of the law upon those whom are otherwise not actually liable will not change.

The ONLY evidence that the IRS/Treasury uses to assess and collect the income tax from those Congress has otherwise not imposed the tax are fraudulent information returns (W2's and 1099's)... that's it, nothing more.  The IRS is not the problem... the problem is ignorance.

My only "agenda" is to remedy that ignorance.

[kmman1987]

Alright, dipshit, this is getting annoying.  I've tried real f**king hard up to this point, but you're just too f**king stupid apparently.

It's not MY f**king book!  Hell, the shit I've posted here and elsewhere on this forum aren't even MY statements, but rather a paraphrasing of what the Supreme Court of the f**king United States has said time and again regarding the f**king income tax.

THE INCOME TAX, AS WRITTEN, DOES NOT APPLY TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

Now, if you feel that bombarding the IRS with paperwork will in ANY way address this fact, have at it.  From what I know from my years of research on the subject is that a mere deluge of administrative crap will have zero effect on the actual law and only prompt, at best, a modification to administrative procedure with regard to receiving returns.  The law will not change.  The mal-application of the law upon those whom are otherwise not actually liable will not change.

The ONLY evidence that the IRS/Treasury uses to assess and collect the income tax from those Congress has otherwise not imposed the tax are fraudulent information returns (W2's and 1099's)... that's it, nothing more.  The IRS is not the problem... the problem is ignorance.

My only "agenda" is to remedy that ignorance.

And it is appreciated MP.
 Duey, what you say has some merit, but the MP has mastered the concept of taxation through massively extensive research and brains. I dont think hes attacking you or anything hes just trying to bring some facts out, as to maybe clue ya in on your hairbrained idea

[MonkeyPuppet]

And it is appreciated MP.

Thanks!

More info here... http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=221576.0 (scroll down for my posts, or read the whole thread)

And here... http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=221021.0

And here (although directed at the 9-9-9 plan)... http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=219927.msg1305570#msg1305570

I'd imagine there's lots more, but I'm not bored enough to ferret them out.

[dueyftw]

Alright, dipshit, this is getting annoying.  I've tried real f**king hard up to this point, but you're just too f**king stupid apparently.

It's not MY f**king book!  Hell, the shit I've posted here and elsewhere on this forum aren't even MY statements, but rather a paraphrasing of what the Supreme Court of the f**king United States has said time and again regarding the f**king income tax.

THE INCOME TAX, AS WRITTEN, DOES NOT APPLY TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.

Personal attacks don't work on me;) Calling names is not very good and I am just as smart as you because I'm pushing your buttons, not the other way around. Last but not least your fighting with the million and billionaires of the United States. They own our government lock stock and barrel. The 'true' law (the right thing to do) doesn't matter, the law is all about money.

This collection of money applies to any levels of government. Here is an example:

I ride my motorcycle to an open 81 (Hells Angles) event. I have more than one motorcycle and the one I was on is completely legal. The police have road blocks on both roads going into the entrance. They make up a ticket and give it to me. The law that they said I broke, I never heard of it. I take the ticket. AT this point most people will just plead guilty, after all the police know the law better than most and send in the money. I go to court and they seem shock that I'm going to fight it and I had not paid the fines. They road blocks was a way to generate money for the town and they handed out a lots of tickets that day and most could have been beat. "Loud muffler" isn't loud, but broken. You just need to stand up and fight. To argue that the police have single out me because I'm going to a HA event is a wast of time. And that's what your doing, your taking on the big picture.

Also I just have a problem with anyone making money off the complex income tax system, no matter how. I'm not selling anything, I just want a year where I don't wast my time filling out forms under a threat.

I was really hoping that someone here would pick up on the basic premises of information over load. Here is another method, What would happen if I help you out and sent in a few extra 1040 forms with your name on them. (IF caught I will go to Jail) but the odds of getting caught are almost nil. So tell me how if everyone who wanted to get rid of the IRS just sent in extra tax forms for complete strangers; what would happen? I'm talking about forms with real names and address, real employer id numbers, SS numbers that could be real. Fake but real looking w-2's etc. All saying that the stranger owes or IRS owes a small amount of money.
Personally a few wouldn't matter, but few thousand would gun up the system and hundreds of thousands; that along with so many who hate the scum who profit from the system by doing their own, would have the IRS freaking out.

Your address and name is out here on the web, just as is mine. Anyone can do this to anyone else. If this kind of 'illegal' behavior became ramped, the IRS would shut down, then change. You can not have a society where every other person works for the government collecting taxes.

Duey

[Kilika]

QFT...

by MonkeyPuppet

You own your labor, and you have an unalienable right to contract that labor for an agreed remuneration.  Congress has no authority to demand a portion of the fruits of that labor... neither before you get a paycheck, nor after the fact.

[PeaceAndFreedom]

I was really hoping that someone here would pick up on the basic premises of information over load. Here is another method, What would happen if I help you out and sent in a few extra 1040 forms with your name on them. (IF caught I will go to Jail) but the odds of getting caught are almost nil. So tell me how if everyone who wanted to get rid of the IRS just sent in extra tax forms for complete strangers; what would happen? I'm talking about forms with real names and address, real employer id numbers, SS numbers that could be real. Fake but real looking w-2's etc. All saying that the stranger owes or IRS owes a small amount of money.
Personally a few wouldn't matter, but few thousand would gun up the system and hundreds of thousands; that along with so many who hate the scum who profit from the system by doing their own, would have the IRS freaking out. 

Sending returns actually reaffirms the system, as it buy into the fiction that most Americans are "taxpayers" who are required to file returns, which in turn adds to the information reports and paper trail of IRS prejudicially worded forms where most people are re-documented to be subject to their jurisdiction. The IRS thrives on receiving these forms, as then it has the main ammunition it needs to spit out its computer letters saying "you owe, you owe, etc." as you have volunteered to the validity of the reports and your status by filing the return. So by providing them with the equitable case it needs to make an assessment of a liability, you are feeding the beast, not ending it.

The 'income tax' is an excise tax on activity connected to federal privileges in the U.S., as measured by income.  According to the code, only "taxpayers" file returns, or have information reports sent in about them, about such activity. Unless you rebut or correct this information, it is presumed to be accurate for the purposes of subjecting one to their authority, and thus their assessments and enforcement actions. Sending in sworn statements on substitute forms that are not IRS-prejudiced, that reject the correctness of the unsworn information reports, is one way to more effectively short circuit the IRS's system or "gunk it up," if that is what you meant. Once the IRS is robbed of the basis of presuming their assessment is valid, through which the IRS administratively creates real liability out of nothing, you then have the positioning to reject their claims as far as jurisdiction, and the lawfulness or correctness of their assessments and enforcement are concerned.

To re-cap my previous strategy, almost word for word: I have not paid or filed since 2000, and have the decade of IRS scare letters to show for it. Practical tip: nothing ever proceeds to a "criminal investigation stage" as I repeatedly request by FOIA request to their Philadelphia office to verify if a legal, correct, and complete assessment has been conducted in relation to the (bogus) allegations of a tax liability, including penalties (any penalty they also allege are also based on an assessment, that is also lacking in legality, correctness, and completeness). The IRS never completes any such correct or lawful assessment, as the FOIA response letter usually bluntly documents, and so the IRS has had to rescind liability and penalty notices it has sent me time and again. If you fight them administratively and stand your ground, they do back off, or at least are kept at bay.

[dueyftw]

To re-cap my previous strategy, almost word for word: I have not paid or filed since 2000, and have the decade of IRS scare letters to show for it.

Good for you, but like most people, they collect more from my paycheck than they are rightfully entitle too by their own rules. I would like to see the documentation of how you have opt out of the system.

I wish I could program, because another way to 'gunk it up' would be by a computer. What would happen if a computer program did this:

Find names and address of people who live in the USA.
Find names and address of company's in the USA.
Fill out tax returns for the people and summit them to the IRS.
The program would also fake the ISP and run in the background sending in the fake returns at 30 seconds to a minute.
The chances of getting caught running this program would high. Computers and the internet seem to leave more of a trail than paper. But I'm sure that the rest of the world would be happy to run such a program.

Again, This is illegal and if your caught at doing such activity you will go to jail. But if you live in Canda, the UK, South America, Asia and any where else in the world but the USA; It don't matter.

Duey

[PeaceAndFreedom]

I definitely would not recommend anybody send in returns of others in for them as you described, it is unlawful, and reinforces or gives the IRS evidence for the notion that the most people are required to be in the system. The documentation and/or rationale for what I have done is outlined in Champion's writings, and in the documents of SEDM.org (see publications section), which I mentioned before.

[dueyftw]

I definitely would not recommend anybody send in returns of others in for them as you described, it is unlawful, and reinforces or gives the IRS evidence for the notion that the most people are required to be in the system. The documentation and/or rationale for what I have done is outlined in Champion's writings, and in the documents of SEDM.org (see publications section), which I mentioned before.

I took a minute or two but not much more. Lot's of information in SEDM.org

I suggest you read:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/08/nyregion/in-tax-scheme-greed-is-linked-to-separatism.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I once worked with a person who lost a good job working for the City of NY because of your kind of advice.

Besides, I'm an atheist.

Maybe your right. No one would want to be labeled a terrorist and sent off to jail with out seeing a lawyer or a court room. My suggestion of other people in the world could shut down the IRS should also live in the fear that the US government will come after them, especially if you live in New Zealand.

Face the facts that your method of using the law doesn't work. Will mine? Who knows; it hasn't been tried.

So let me recap.

1) Do your own taxes and make sure that you got one or more schedules attached. Get piss every time you see a commercial that offers you tax help. Those scum are more than half of the problem. Suggest to others that they should do their own taxes too.

2) If you have some time and little fear, help a stranger out and do his taxes for him. (remember this is illegal, so don't come crying to me if you get caught)

3) Please tell the rest of the world that the USA is giving away free money, all you got to do is send in a tax return. (No the IRS is not, just kidding) But if your in a part of the rest of the world hates the United States government and would like to 'F' with it you do not have my permission to send in anything to the IRS, because it is against the law.

Duey

[MonkeyPuppet]

So, to summarize this thread so far...

Performing illegal acts to abuse the tax collection system is good.

Researching the law and abiding by what it actually says with regard to the truth about the income tax and its proper applicability is bad.

Whatever


You keep doing this CYA bullshit after spewing suggestion after suggestion regarding illegal activity.  What's the point?

At the same time, you outright reject the law itself, what it actually says, jurisprudence on the subject and the research of others who've delved into the topic for quite some time.  Yet, your little brain-fart about how to do little more than force a bureaucracy to go paperless is somehow superior?  Sorry, but nothing of substance will be affected by your plan.  It aids no cause for liberty and provides no support for those who are actually doing something constructive with regard to awareness of the truth about the income tax.

Research, education, knowledge... these require the investment of one's time.  Taxation will exist for quite some time to come.  Why very few take the time to understand it, despite being subjugated by it's mal-application at all levels, is beyond me.  It is not a difficult subject.  While tax law is indeed written in such a way to obfuscate the truth, it's not rocket science.  There are rules to both law and the construction of statutes dictating the same.  They are not secret... one just needs to know where to look.  A man named Jabez G. Sutherland literally wrote the book on the rules of statutory construction and is an excellent place to start.  There are also quite a large number of legal maxims in Latin that are still applicable today and referenced ad nauseam throughout American jurisprudence at all levels.

Enrichment of the mind used to be preferable to nonconstructive distractions.  The energy you spend dreaming up ways to "gunk up" the system would be better spent understanding it, for that is the first step in undoing a thing.

[dueyftw]

So, to summarize this thread so far...

Performing illegal acts to abuse the tax collection system is good.

Researching the law and abiding by what it actually says with regard to the truth about the income tax and its proper applicability is bad.

Yes. Almost.
Performing legal and illegal acts to abuse the tax collection system is good.

Researching isn't bad, it's a wast of time. The problem is that your right, 100%. I agree. Most who spend a few hours (I have done more than just a few hours) doing just a little reading will find that our government (politicians), IRS have convoluted the law to suit their own needs. Look if the IRS would follow "the law and abiding by what it actually says with regard to the truth about the income tax and its proper applicability" the IRS would be gone tomorrow. Right? The government has 3 branches and one of them (Judicial ) should have shut down the other (IRS) years ago, but hasn't. Why is that? Personally I think that the Judicial branch has put their fingers in their ears and say that were not going to listen to the law of the land. Why is that? Money, the kind that you can not win against. You can do all the research in the world but the judges in 'tax court' isn't biased, they are corrupt.

This is corruption, plain and simple. When our government (politicians) (judges) cheat, lie, and brake the rules and law, it then becomes OK to do the same.

Duey

[dueyftw]

More thoughts, Ideas and Stupid ship....

  Last year I road my bike across the country and back. Should have made in to some sort of businesses to write off all the expenses, book or could of made some sort of documentary stopping and telling the whole country about the evil of the IRS. I would have had at least 50 gas receipts alone that some poor IRS employee would have to go through.

The other thing is on the IRS website the let you order forms. Man there is lots of forms. Humm? What an evil person could do with a computer that is hard to trace, a few million address and, Oh never mind.

Duey