Genuine question for Christians/Catholics etc. about other Religions

[Kilika]

Dude how is this Peter, the First pope of the Catholic Church?  How did you get that leap in logic, not trying to be funny but I really want to know why you think that Apostle Peter is the same Pope of the Catholic church?

Because the RCC priests told him so!   

[PeaceAndFreedom]

So you are trying to argue when Jesus gives the keys to Peter He's really giving it to everyone? When He tells Peter to rule His sheep He's telling everyone or all the Apostles to rule his sheep? no, He's actually giving the keys to Peter and telling Peter to tend and rule His sheep.
 

No, I am not 'trying to argue,' the principle is repeatedly demonstrated in the text. I brought up the clear Nicodemus example, and you promptly ignored it, going straight back to getting things exactly backwards. Jesus is giving the keys to all and telling all believers they can exercise leadership, especially since Peter, one of the most flawed of the disciples, is being told this. It's precisely because Peter doesn't have special status, that the instruction is so meaningful.

It's the same as Christ talking to 'sinners' and common people, instead of spending most of His time with the Pharisees or hight priests. The fact that Christ communicates directly with people, and not through priests and 'popes' in the first place, by itself refutes the Catholic intercession concept. Christians need no 'Pope' or human hight priests, as our high priest is Christ Himself. The Luke 22 verse simply reiterates that everyone in Christ's body is singularly important and directly engaged by Christ. His singling out Peter represents that relationship between Christ and each believer, not a special status to Peter.

[chris jones]

 This is all very strange to me & no I'm not about to get into scripture.
 If a true Christian leader needs to be drapped in silken finery and gold jewlery, to sit on a throne, the leader an empire(Vatican), to have people bow before him and kiss the ring,  I'm out on this one.
 If I remember properly, Jesus sent out his desciples without script (money) to spread the word. Seems to me wealth takes a front seat.
Did J.C. have folks kiss a gold ring, bow before him on his throne, gobs of money, its just not the message I received.     
*Gratefully.
 Didn't  John the Baptist live within what would be considered today a vow of poverty. 
Same o same o As allways, follow the money trail and the power over mankinds need seeking divinity, the meaning of life and the eternal existance, the key to the doors of heaven -cost money, is that it?
 Funny kind of, not realy, I don't remember hearing the pope raise hell about the killing of innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Do you?
I do remember the history of the Cath church, the dark ages stuff, the genociding. Can you imagine what it would have been like for a husband or wife to see their partner burned at the stake or drowned or tortured.
 I'm not singling our Catholic Church alone, chruches of any faith can become a  entity of power over the people.
 

[goforward]

This is all very strange to me & no I'm not about to get into scripture.
 If a true Christian leader needs to be drapped in silken finery and gold jewlery, to sit on a throne, the leader an empire(Vatican), to have people bow before him and kiss the ring,  I'm out on this one.
 If I remember properly, Jesus sent out his desciples without script (money) to spread the word. Seems to me wealth takes a front seat.
Did J.C. have folks kiss a gold ring, bow before him on his throne, gobs of money, its just not the message I received.      
*Gratefully.
 Didn't  John the Baptist live within what would be considered today a vow of poverty.  
Same o same o As allways, follow the money trail and the power over mankinds need seeking divinity, the meaning of life and the eternal existance, the key to the doors of heaven -cost money, is that it?
 Funny kind of, not realy, I don't remember hearing the pope raise hell about the killing of innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Do you?
I do remember the history of the Cath church, the dark ages stuff, the genociding. Can you imagine what it would have been like for a husband or wife to see their partner burned at the stake or drowned or tortured.
 I'm not singling our Catholic Church alone, chruches of any faith can become a  entity of power over the people.
 

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
much worse than hypocrisy, it's demoncracy (crazy)
  a face only the mother marry could love, or not

[DAVIDE MTL]

You said Who does Jesus tell to rule his sheep? i want that scripture please.

Either you
a.show how the greek word I quoted isn't in the original greek text of the bible
or
b.show the meaning I posted is  incorrect
or
c. take an english course since you can't understand what I posted
 

[DAVIDE MTL]

No, I am not 'trying to argue,' the principle is repeatedly demonstrated in the text. I brought up the clear Nicodemus example, and you promptly ignored it, going straight back to getting things exactly backwards. Jesus is giving the keys to all and telling all believers they can exercise leadership, especially since Peter, one of the most flawed of the disciples, is being told this. It's precisely because Peter doesn't have special status, that the instruction is so meaningful.

No He's not, He's giving the keys to St.Peter, can't you tell the difference between an example of Jesus telling someone "you must do this to be saved" which ofcourse doesn't exclude others to when Jesus specifically tells Peter He's giving Him the keys ...
 

Since I don't believe you truly understand the significance of the keys I hope the following could shed some light

Here's what's really interesting. Most people don't know that this reference to the keys of the Kingdom in Matthew 16:19 (and to Peter's binding an dloosing with them) comes from isias chapter 22. Jesus' words to Peter in Matthew 16 are a reference  to the function of the prime minister of the Kingdom in the Old Testament.

Isaias 22;22 "And the key of the house of David will i lay upon his shoulder, so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."
Notice the language clearly parallels Matthew 16:19. In the Old Testament God established a covenant with David in order to establish a Kingdom. The Davidic Monarchy,the Kingdom of God on earth,was meant to be  a prototype of the Kingdom of God which Jesus Christ would establish. That's why Jesus is called the son of David in the Gospels. It's also why Matthew's Gospel has kingdom as one of it's primary themes. It's also why Peter himself says in Acts 2;30 that Jesus sits upon David's throne. Luke 1:32 says the following of Jesus: "He shall be great,ad shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father..."
Jesus sits upon the throne of David. But Jesus' Kingdom is a spiritual one; His Kingdom is His Church. Jesus' Kingdom not only fulfills, bu surpasses the prototype, David's Kingdom. The point here is that Jesus' Kingdom is set up along similar lines.

Jesus was clearly making St Peter His Prime Minister
In David's Kingdom there was not only a king who ruled all the people, but the king had a royal cabinet. The king had royal ministers or chief officers. You see references to this royal cabinet in 2 Samuel 8. You also see areference to them in 1 Kings 4 and in other places. In this royal cabinet,there was a minister of defense, ministers in commerce, provisions, etc.
However,of all the king's ministers,there was one who stood out with authority above the rest. That was the prime minister, who was over the king's house. That's where the fascinatin truth of Isaias 22 becomes relevant to Matthew 16.

In Isais 22 we read the prime minister HAD THE KEY to the house of David. Let me repeat that: the prime minister had the key to the house of David. This key represented the prime minister's authority over the house of the king.

Isaias 22: 20-22- "And it shall come to pass in that day,that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strenghten him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut, and none shall open."
Notice that the primeminister had the key of the house of David. We also see that to him was committed "the government," and that he would be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

In Isaias 22 the prime minister of the Kingdom was a man named Shebna. In Isaias 22: 15 says Shebna was "over the house"- that is, he was over the house of the king. Then Shebna left the office of prime minister and was replaced by a man named Eliakim. Then we read that the key of the kingdom, which Shebna had, was given to Eliakim by King Hezekiah ( the successor of David who was reigning as the king at the time). King Hezekiah gave the key of the Kingdom to Eliakim because Eliakim succeeded Shebna in the office of prime minister.

Eliakim now had the key to the house of David. By the fact that he had the key, everyone would recognize Eliakim as the king's prime minister.

Think about the striking similarity to Matthew 16. in Isaias 22:22, we see the clear reference to the key of the Kingdom being passed, just as Jesus gives the keys to St Peter. In addition, the statement that with the key "he shall open,and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open" is srikingly similar to what Jesus says to St Peter in Matthew 16:19, when He gives him the keys to His kingdom: "whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose upon earth shall be loosed also in Heaven."

The significance of this should be very obvious.
Jesus sits upon the throne of David. So when Jesus comes to establish His Kingdom (His Church), which is the fulfillment of the Kingdom of David,He likewise appoints His royal cabinet: His Apostles. But of those royalministers (His Apostles), there is one prime minister who is overall the other ministers and all the members of the Kingdom. This prime minister is the one who will have the keys of His Kingdom and will be given the primacy in His Church to look after the affairs of His Kingdom.

When Jesus said to Peter,"I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven," it would have been a clear indication to all informed Jews that Jesus was going to make St Peter His prime minister. He was declaring that St Peter would be the first pope-the president or governor of His Church. This is a powerful and irrefutable proof that Jesus was indeed saying that St Peter would be the first pope in Matthew 16:18-19

[tritonman]

And still we await davy's answer .  and wait, and wait, and wait,..  Cat got your fingers davy?

[tritonman]

Either you
a.show how the greek word I quoted isn't in the original greek text of the bible
or
b.show the meaning I posted is  incorrect
or
c. take an english course since you can't understand what I posted
 

An ultimatum from a LIAR,  this should be juicy.

[DAVIDE MTL]

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
much worse than hypocrisy, it's demoncracy (crazy)
  a face only the mother marry could love, or not

how ironic you'll be spending eternity with him in the afterlife ...unless you change your ways

[goforward]

how ironic you'll be spending eternity with him in the afterlife ...unless you change your ways

why exactly? I except Jesus as my savior, repent and turn away from sin
What are you really trying to say? Trying to aggravate as you side track the thread again.
Fail as usual
& you wouldn't kiss that ghoul's ring oh my...blasphemy!

[tritonman]

why exactly? I except Jesus as my savior, repent and turn away from sin
What are you really trying to say? Trying to aggravate as you side track the thread again.
Fail as usual
& you wouldn't kiss that ghoul's ring oh my...blasphemy!

That goul is davy boys God no matter how he tries to deny it.  He still never could back up his claim however.

[PeaceAndFreedom]

Since I don't believe you truly understand the significance of the keys I hope the following could shed some light

Here's what's really interesting. Most people don't know that this reference to the keys of the Kingdom in Matthew 16:19 (and to Peter's binding an dloosing with them) comes from isias chapter 22. Jesus' words to Peter in Matthew 16 are a reference  to the function of the prime minister of the Kingdom in the Old Testament.

Isaias 22;22 "And the key of the house of David will i lay upon his shoulder, so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."
Notice the language clearly parallels Matthew 16:19. In the Old Testament God established a covenant with David in order to establish a Kingdom. The Davidic Monarchy,the Kingdom of God on earth,was meant to be  a prototype of the Kingdom of God which Jesus Christ would establish. That's why Jesus is called the son of David in the Gospels. It's also why Matthew's Gospel has kingdom as one of it's primary themes. It's also why Peter himself says in Acts 2;30 that Jesus sits upon David's throne. Luke 1:32 says the following of Jesus: "He shall be great,ad shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father..."
Jesus sits upon the throne of David. But Jesus' Kingdom is a spiritual one; His Kingdom is His Church. Jesus' Kingdom not only fulfills, but surpasses the prototype, David's Kingdom. The point here is that Jesus' Kingdom is set up along similar lines.

I think it's you who are not understanding the fundamental Christian doctrine that through Jesus, all believers are part of His Resurrection, and all are heirs to the inheritance of His kingdom. That cannot be so unless we ALL possess the keys through Christ as part of that inheritance. This matches Revelation 3:7's plain statement that Christ holds the key of David---no mention whatsoever of Peter. Meaning, Christ holds the key of David, period. Believers (including Peter) partake of that ownership through Jesus, but none of us have any special ownership status over it. So when Christ speaks to the lowly Peter about the key, he is saying even the least of believers are heirs to the key and the kingdom.

[chris jones]

 I think these religous debates are great. "Interpretations" of the word.
You guys won't beleive this and thats OK with me. But,I've been there, the bible, concordances, translations, Crytical Greek, Aramaic, and extensive studying etc. I began when I was in my late 30's.
 You will probably not like this, but I came a conclusion, in part was a scripture and I will only quote the beggining, Love God with all you heart, mind and soul, and so on.. and yes I do. On a personell level I sincerly beleive conscience is our internal spiritual JUDGE, or simply put God's wispering.
 In evidence are the elites and the NWO sucklings, it appears that in order to enter the circle of power a basic requirement is to have discarded conscience. They may profess to be religous, perhaps adapt with bible references and most likely profess in a sincere manner they are born again, God fearing individuals with a bible under their arm and Billy Graham at their side..
 Deep down, gut level stuff, no matter what country I have been in people know the difference between right and wrong, they may justify their BS with claptrap justification,or have fallen into the hands of brainwashing rhetoric, but they know deep down what the deal is.
 I can't help remembering a guy, General Smedly Butler a master of special ops coming forward and spilling the beans. Why would a big dog do that, CONSCIENCE/ God, the awakening.  I went though hell on earth with my C, God just hung on to me even if I felt as though i didn't deserve it. 

[DAVIDE MTL]

I think it's you who are not understanding the fundamental Christian doctrine that through Jesus, all believers are part of His Resurrection, and all are heirs to the inheritance of His kingdom. That cannot be so unless we ALL possess the keys through Christ as part of that inheritance. This matches Revelation 3:7's plain statement that Christ holds the key of David---no mention whatsoever of Peter. Meaning, Christ holds the key of David, period. Believers (including Peter) partake of that ownership through Jesus, but none of us have any special ownership status over it. So when Christ speaks to the lowly Peter about the key, he is saying even the least of believers are heirs to the key and the kingdom.

you can think what you want..
"So when Christ speaks to the lowly Peter about the key, he is saying even the least of believers are heirs to the key and the kingdom."
is your made up interpretation...I know Jesus gave the keys to Peter because Jesus said so

Matthew 16:16-19,

" That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven;and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The fact that the least of believers are heirs to the kingdom doesn't contradict Jesus giving the keys to Peter, sorry.

[DAVIDE MTL]

That goul is davy boys God no matter how he tries to deny it.  He still never could back up his claim however.

Nice try liar, and you can never refute my claims, still waiting....
as for anti pope Benedict you have more in common with him than you think
Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic Theology (1982) p 202
"It means that the Catholic does not insist on the dissolution of the Protestant confessions and the demolishing of their churches but hopes,rather,that they will be strengthened in their confessions and in their ecclesial reality."

Notice that Benedict XVI doesn't want the Protestant religions dissolved and converted to Catholicism, but hopes, rather,that they will be strengthened in their confession of Protestantism.

do you see the irony? He's trying to assure you going to hell since true Catholicism believes there is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church.

[tritonman]

And still we await davy's answer .  and wait, and wait, and wait,..  Cat got your fingers davy?

C,mon Davy, he's your man after all,  At least your record is here for all to see your false claims.

Oh yes, We Are Still Waiting for your scripture ...

You are defining FAIL//

[PeaceAndFreedom]

you can think what you want..
"So when Christ speaks to the lowly Peter about the key, he is saying even the least of believers are heirs to the key and the kingdom."
is your made up interpretation...I know Jesus gave the keys to Peter because Jesus said so

Matthew 16:16-19,

" That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven;and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The fact that the least of believers are heirs to the kingdom doesn't contradict Jesus giving the keys to Peter, sorry.

And you can reassert what you want, reasserting is not proving. I have accounted for the verses you cite, while you have ignored the verses that disagree with you. End of exchange.

[DAVIDE MTL]

And you can reassert what you want, reasserting is not proving. I have accounted for the verses you cite, while you have ignored the verses that disagree with you. End of exchange.

You haven't accounted for the verses I cited, your Nicodemus example is a poor attempt to try and undermine the fact that Jesus gave the keys to Peter. End of exchange.

[tritonman]

Little davy, your exchanges never end , especially well.
You have had way to much time to back up your false claim about Jesus appointing popes or catholics. 
Yes your exchange ended long ago with your FAIL
Type any responce you like but you can not back up your claim.  You do not have to like it but you do have to live with it lol.