Pope openly calls for world government

[chris jones]

Billy the Graham is history, I remember him well, a great actor.
Now The Hill has another holy man, different brand, but HOLY, my definition is influence, power.

 A sick thought but I have to admit every time I see these holy men, or our politcal appointees, in the finery and makeup complete. In my imagination I vision them having to lift their robes, or drop their 500$ trousers and sit on a shitter, it reminds me they are just people I suppose.
  The remainder of their life is concentrated on their acting ability, the stage, the Political Theater.
  The big CON.

[All4truth]

It is a big Con or rather a big deception.  The beast and the dragon want worship, they don't care how they get it as long as they get it.  So they deceive people into believing they are God's holy church, or like time past, soon they will force people to worship them.  The devil doesn't care how he gets you as long as you don't worship the God of creation.

[angel]

It is a big Con or rather a big deception.  The beast and the dragon want worship, they don't care how they get it as long as they get it.  So they deceive people into believing they are God's holy church, or like time past, soon they will force people to worship them.  The devil doesn't care how he gets you as long as you don't worship the God of creation.

And that's precisely what he did through the beast power in the early centuries (RCC).  He could not persuade those faithful to the "law and the testimony" (Rev 14:12), so he had to "think" (Dan 7:25) of some other way to deceive the saints.  Satan came up with the greatest hoax ever to appear on earth...  

["Even him (Roman Church), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"]

...he infiltrated the Truth from within and changed the very laws that the saints were professing so adamantly.  He figured, well if I can't deter them away from their law and faith, then I'll change the law itself!  And that's precisely what he did.  And the world has since believed it.  In fact, not only believed but it has become as normal as sliced bread.  The false Sabbath.  In fact, the Reformer's lost their great spiritual battle over this one aspect and you can read the history for yourself.  It happened at the council of Trent.  The beast power claimed, "If indeed you (Reformers) hold to the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone, than why do you worship on Sunday??"  They were mute.  They were nailed by the fact that they had abandoned the true Sabbath.  The rest is history.  Satan gained a huge victory at this point in time.  There are however, a remnant who have not yielded this point to Satan.  The great test will come with the mark of the beast for those who are preserved 'till the end.  Those who have a correct understanding of the the following two great principles will be among those described in Revelation 14:12:

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
 
Don't be fooled:

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." Dan 7:25

But take heart, for Christ said:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

It doesn't get clearer than this.  God told us before it happened!  He said Satan would change my laws and Christ came and said I haven't changed them!  Simple.  We will be without excuse.

[All4truth]

Here is what the RCC says about the Sabbath, from the horse's mouth.

Quotes, from the Organization that was prophesied to "try" and change the Sabbath day as Daniel saw in Daniel 7:25

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act... And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things." H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

"Sunday is our MARK of authority. . .the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

The Catholic Mirror (a publication by Cardinal Gibbons) Sept. 2, 1893- "...the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday."

The Catholic Mirror Sept. 9, 1893- "Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping the Saturday from the giving of the Law, A.M., 2514 to A.D. 1893 (to the present day)..."

 The Catholic Mirror Sept.9, 1893- "We deem it necessary to be perfectly clear on this point....The Bible- the Old Testament- confirmed by the living tradition of weekly practice for 3383 years by the chosen people of God, teaches, then, with absolute certainty, that God had, Himself, named the day "to be kept holy to Him"- that the day was Saturday, and that any violation of that command was punishable with death."

Martin J. Scott- Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927) "Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday .... Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."

John Laux- A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1936) "Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."

Peter R. Kraemer- Catholic Church Extension Society (1975), Chicago, Illinois. "Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man."2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws. "It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible."

"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213

"Reasoned and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday Catholicism and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible. -James Cardinal Gibbons. Catholic mirror, December 23, 1893

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever  did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed  from Saturday to Sunday. "The day of the Lord" was chosen, not from any  direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power .... People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole  authority, should logically become Seventh-day Adventists, and keep Saturday  holy." (Saint Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.)

"Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be  defended only on Catholic principles .... From beginning to end of Scripture  there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public  worship from the last day of the week to the first." (Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August, 1990.)

Question: How prove you that the church had power command feasts and holydays?

Answer: By the very fact of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and keep most other feasts commanded by the same church.

Question: Have any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals precept?

Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the way, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. "-Stephen Keenan, a doctrinal catechism, p. 174

"It was the Catholic church by the authority of Jesus Christ, which has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the Catholic church." - Mgr, Segur Plain Talk about Protestantism of today page 213

"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.

Protestants do not realize that by observing Sunday, they accept the authority of the spokesperson of the Church, the Pope. -Our Sunday Visitor», 5 February 1950.)

Is Saturday the 7th day according to the Bible and the 10 Commandments?
I answer yes.

"2. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the 7th day, Saturday, for Sunday, the 1st day?
"I answer yes.

Did Christ change the day?
"I answer no! Faithfully yours, "J. Cardinal Gibbons" Gibbons' autograph letter.

"From this we may understand how great is the authority of the church in interpreting or explaining to us the commandments of God- an authority which is acknowledged by the universal practice of the whole Christian world, even of those sects profess to take the holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, since they observe as the day of rest not the seventh day of the week demanded by the Bible, but the first day. Which we know is to be kept holy, only from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic church." - Henry Gibson "Catechism Made Easy" No 2 ninth edition volume one pp. 341, 342 Authoritative quotations on the Sabbath and Sunday.

"Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday Catholicism and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible. -James Cardinal Gibbons. Catholic mirror, December 23, 1893

"The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. -The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4

No such law in the Bible "Nowhere in the bible do we find that Jesus or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is, the seventh day of the week, Saturday. Today, most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman] church outside the bible." Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947

The two following quotes are from, Rome's Challenge "Why do Protestants keep Sunday?"

"The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who could find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation," Seventh-day Adventists. "They're cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God Himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New testaments, literally kept by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God while on earth."

-Rome's Challenge, page two
"Is not yet too late for Protestants to redeem themselves. Will they do it?... will they indeed take the written word only, the Scripture alone, as their sole authority and their sole standard? Or will they still hold the indefensible, self contradictory, and suicidal doctrine and practice of following the authority of the Catholic church and wear the SIGN of her authority? Will they keep the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, according to Scripture? Or will they keep the Sunday according to the tradition of the Catholic church, -Rome's challenge, page 31

[angel]

There is another irony in this history.  In Daniel's day, the anti-christ spirit thought to mess with another one of God's laws...the second...when the King erected the image of himself and decreed that everyone worship it. 

So, he messed with the second in Daniels day:

# 2 - "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image.."

And in the Christian era, he choose the fourth:

# 4 - "Remember the Sabbath.."

We can know for sure this is the same anti-christ spirit behind both acts of apostasy.  How?  Because the RCC tampered with and changed these two exact commandments of God's law -

# 2 - they removed completely,

and,

# 4 - they changed it from one day to another.

The battle over God's truth is evident both in a historical and Biblical sense.   Satan seeks to destroy God's Truth in the minds of men.

Satan will again issue a decree that all who refuse to worship this spurious Sabbath be killed, just as in Daniel's day.  Although, just as in Daniel's day, the Lord shut the mouths of the lions, so too will he protect his last day servants who work to proclaim his Truth.   

[DAVIDE MTL]

according to Fritz Springmeier the Catholic church is the daughter of the harlot, not the mother of harlots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PNnyU36EJQ 1hr :25 mark

[All4truth]

Wow just read this from Texe Marrs.

Funny how they all seem to convert to Catholism. 

For now, though, it’s all Newt Gingrich. He has been ultra-loyal both to the Jewish money men and to the secretive Vatican group Opus Dei, another group of money men. A fanatical Israel supporter, Gingrich is continually pimping for more wars and death in the Middle East. He supported the Bush torture and gulags and can be counted on to siphon trillions from the U.S. Treasury into the coffers of Wall Street’s Jewish bankers and ponzi scheme artists.

To prepare Gingrich for his role as Rothschild front man in 2012, Newt recently “converted” to Catholicism. In February, 2010, some 500 Catholic millionaires, initiates of the Opus Dei affiliate Legatus, met in Dana Point, California to honor Gingrich and former President and Jew-Catholic loyalist George W. Bush. Gingrich was lauded by the group for his conversion and even gave his “Christian testimony” regarding his leaving the Southern Baptist denomination to become a convert to “Holy Mother Church.” His new wife—his third—was on hand.

The Jewish Jesuits
Also present was Jesuit Father Robert Spitzer, a Jew who is Chairman of the Vatican’s Magis Institute and Spitzer Center. The Jesuit Order is, in fact, a crypto-Jewish organization and Spitzer is one of the many Jews who claims to have converted to Catholicism. He and the debauched Gingrich must have really been laughing up their sleeves.

Legatus has some 1,800 members, with a heavy presence in the United Sates, Canada, and Ireland. Gingrich thrilled the attendees in California by showing them the new film his company, Gingrich Productions, has produced about the “exemplary life of the late Pope John Paul II.” The theme of the Legatus conference was “Challenging the Culture.”

http://www.texemarrs.com/choice_for_2012.htm

[lee51]

If any of you want to read what is to happen to the USA, how America is involved in Revelation and what is to happen at the end of time, read this wonderful book written in the 1800's--it is really a good one.

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html

[Kilika]

"The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who could find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation," Seventh-day Adventists. "They're cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God Himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New testaments, literally kept by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God while on earth."

Well, seeing we are no longer under the law, since Jesus paid that price for us, it's all a moot point.

One day or another, it does not matter, and THAT is what the bible says...

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5 (KJB)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." James 2:10 (KJB)

So we are all guilty before God, and no amount of trying to keep the law will save you. Jesus already saved us. You just have to believe it.

What did our Lord say to the question?

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? " Matthew 19:16 (KJB)

See if you notice what is missing from the answer...

17   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 
18   He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 
19   Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
20   The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 
21   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. 
22   But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Matthew 19:17-22 (KJB)

All that Jesus told him pertained to how the indivual should act as a person. No mention of the sabbath, so apparently it wasn't as important as some think it is. It was under the Levitical Law, sure, but no more, it's spiritual now. There is nothing ritual about it. Jesus tells him how to act, not what to observe, if that makes sense, as I'm not sure how else to put it but what the verse says.

And notice the last thing mentioned, and the person's reaction. It was about material items. And what does scripture say? Look at my signature for the answer to ALL evil in the world.

Christians have liberty to observe one day, or every day if they wish, BUT, they are not to tell others which day it's suppose to be. It's a liberty for the individual to decide for themselves. Once a person is born-again with the Holy Ghost, they WILL remember the sabbath, "to keep it holy".

Now for Christians, the "sabbath" is the final rest with God. When the body of Christ finally rests in the end, the day of redemption, and Jesus has finished putting down evil for good. That's what I personally believe about the sabbath.

1   Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 
2   For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. 
3   For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 
4   For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 
5   And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest. 
6   Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 
7   Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 
8   For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 
9   There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 
10   For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. 
11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-11 (KJB)

[Jordan]

Well, seeing we are no longer under the law, since Jesus paid that price for us, it's all a moot point.

One day or another, it does not matter, and THAT is what the bible says...

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5 (KJB)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." James 2:10 (KJB)

So we are all guilty before God, and no amount of trying to keep the law will save you. Jesus already saved us. You just have to believe it.

What did our Lord say to the question?

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? " Matthew 19:16 (KJB)

See if you notice what is missing from the answer...

17   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 
18   He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 
19   Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
20   The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 
21   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. 
22   But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Matthew 19:17-22 (KJB)

All that Jesus told him pertained to how the indivual should act as a person. No mention of the sabbath, so apparently it wasn't as important as some think it is. It was under the Levitical Law, sure, but no more, it's spiritual now. There is nothing ritual about it. Jesus tells him how to act, not what to observe, if that makes sense, as I'm not sure how else to put it but what the verse says.

And notice the last thing mentioned, and the person's reaction. It was about material items. And what does scripture say? Look at my signature for the answer to ALL evil in the world.

Christians have liberty to observe one day, or every day if they wish, BUT, they are not to tell others which day it's suppose to be. It's a liberty for the individual to decide for themselves. Once a person is born-again with the Holy Ghost, they WILL remember the sabbath, "to keep it holy".

Now for Christians, the "sabbath" is the final rest with God. When the body of Christ finally rests in the end, the day of redemption, and Jesus has finished putting down evil for good. That's what I personally believe about the sabbath.

1   Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 
2   For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. 
3   For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 
4   For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 
5   And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest. 
6   Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 
7   Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 
8   For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 
9   There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 
10   For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. 
11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-11 (KJB)

You know that sound a basketball makes when it is slammed through the hoop in someones face? I just heard it.

[angel]

If any of you want to read what is to happen to the USA, how America is involved in Revelation and what is to happen at the end of time, read this wonderful book written in the 1800's--it is really a good one.

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html

[lee51]

Wait a minute Kilika.  You said we are no longer under the law.  Does that mean I can steal, kill and commit adultery?

The Bible says God doesn't change.  And the fourth commandment begins with the word:

Remember.

Why would God put this in the Ten Commandments and then change it later?  Sorry, I don't buy that.  The Catholic church also has changed the 10-commandments in their bible but no one has the authority to change them. They were written by the finger of God--and if people followed them, we wouldn't be in this mess today.

Jesus said "If ye love me keep my commandments."   That includes all ten of them.  And if you try to throw out one of them, then you need to throw them all out.  

The bottom line is this:  will you keep all ten of the commandments or get rid of them or try to dance around them.  

[Dok]

If any of you want to read what is to happen to the USA, how America is involved in Revelation and what is to happen at the end of time, read this wonderful book written in the 1800's--it is really a good one.

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

[Jordan]

Wait a minute Kilika.  You said we are no longer under the law.  Does that mean I can steal, kill and commit adultery?

The Bible says God doesn't change.  And the fourth commandment begins with the word:

Remember.

Why would God put this in the Ten Commandments and then change it later?  Sorry, I don't buy that.  The Catholic church also has changed the 10-commandments in their bible but no one has the authority to change them. They were written by the finger of God--and if people followed them, we wouldn't be in this mess today.

Jesus said "If ye love me keep my commandments."   That includes all ten of them.  And if you try to throw out one of them, then you need to throw them all out.  

The bottom line is this:  will you keep all ten of the commandments or get rid of them or try to dance around them.  

Christ fulfilled the law, no need to get rid of them. They weren't needed any longer.

[global_fiefdom]

It's the classic "paradox" of,

Faith expressed via works (the works being obedience to the law)?

However it is not the works that save (our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to Jesus and compared to the Father Jesus' righteousness wasn't enough either). It was the perfect, perfect, perfectly prophesized sacrifice that Jesus gave when he was "killed outside the camp" at the cross on Golgotha.

I sin every day.
I try to tell Him about the ones I feel worst about and hope that He will help me.
People who have mental trouble have a very difficult time walking the walk.

When we criticize each other as Christians it should help us figure out how we are portraying faith to the world and whether it's genuine or not.

I can honestly tell you that I am not very genuine because I flip-flop a lot, like Toad in Wind in the Willows. Does that mean I've totally thrown the Law away or wiped my arse with my faith?

Well I hope not. Everyone falls.
"Man reaches and falls" ~Alexander movie (so gay lol)

[angel]

It's the classic "paradox" of,

Faith expressed via works (the works being obedience to the law)?

Indeed it is!

Christians who reject the authority of the OT often see the giving of the law on Sinai as being inconsistent with the gospel.  They conclude that the covenant given on Sinai represents an era in history when salvation was based on obedience to the law.  But because the people failed to live up to the demands of the law, God (they say) ushered in a new covenant, a covenant of grace through the merits of Jesus Christ.  This, then, is their understanding of the two covenants:  the old based on law, and the new based on grace. 

However common that view may be, it is wrong.  Salvation was never by obedience to the law; biblical Judaism, from the start, was always a religion of grace.  The legalism is what the prophets and apostles confronted as a perversion.

Look at Gal 4:23-31.  Paul uses this old testament example of faith vs. works to ask us the question:  Are we born of the Spirit or of the flesh?

"His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.....Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman."

To put it simply, when Abraham did not walk in faith, took matters into his own hands, tried to "help" God fulfill his promise of a seed, and fornicated with Hagar, he was demonstrating WORKS.

On the contrary, when Abraham walked in faith, waited on the Lord to fulfill his promise, he was demonstrating FAITH.

This experience is of vital importance in understanding the relationship b/w faith and obedience.  It is actually a misnomer to think that walking by faith does not require obedience!  By this very example alone the very opposite is true;

When Abraham was disobedient (with Hagar) it was called works and when he was obedient it was called faith!
 
So....how can we tell which one we are born of??  The Bible tells us:

Gal 5:19-24

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 
Therefore, those that have "put on Christ have done so NOT to use him as a cover of our sins, but to be transformed by him! 

The Bible tells us, It is not impossible to be changed into his likeness, and as this occurs, obedience to his government of love is simple a response of a loving heart for what he has done, and not WORKS AT ALL!

[global_fiefdom]

Thank you!
Satan's kingdom is totally based on works, by the way!
Just check out the Clinton Global Initiative or anything else involving "commitments".

If only Christ's kingdom would come faster.
The kingdom built without hands.

Only when everyone is willing to help one another for the sake of helping.
Not to belong to a cool club or to receive favor or to have your name put on a monument.
It's very very hard to do good works that are unacknowledged by physical change.

I like to look at General Montgomery's Monument when I get discouraged by life now.

The monument was commissioned in Paris by Benjamin Franklin in 1776 with money from the Continental Congress.


"this monument is erected by the order of congress 25th jan 1776 to transmit to posterity a grateful remembrance of the patriotism conduct enterprise and perseverance of major general richard montgomery who after a series of successes amidst the most discouraging difficulties fell in the attack on quebec. 31 dec 1775. aged 35 years"

http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/montgomerymonument_2304_2.jpg

[Kilika]

Wait a minute Kilika.  You said we are no longer under the law.  Does that mean I can steal, kill and commit adultery?

The Bible says God doesn't change.  And the fourth commandment begins with the word:

Remember.

Why would God put this in the Ten Commandments and then change it later?  Sorry, I don't buy that.  The Catholic church also has changed the 10-commandments in their bible but no one has the authority to change them. They were written by the finger of God--and if people followed them, we wouldn't be in this mess today.

Jesus said "If ye love me keep my commandments."   That includes all ten of them.  And if you try to throw out one of them, then you need to throw them all out.  

The bottom line is this:  will you keep all ten of the commandments or get rid of them or try to dance around them.  

Actually, I didn't say we are no longer under the law, it was a reference, the Holy Bible says that...

14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 
15 ¶ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 
16   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 
17   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 
18   Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 
19   I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 
20   For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 
21   What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. 
22   But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 
23   For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
Romans 6:14-23 (KJB)

Yes, God does not change...

"For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6 (KJB)

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8 (KJB)

You misunderstand. God did not change the commandments. They are still valid, and apply to those under the law who reject Jesus. Jesus is the fulfilling of the law for those who believe. I am in no way saying the commandments, of which there are over 600, not just 10, have been changed or somehow discarded. They are not. Nothing has changed expect how man is forgiven of his violating the law.

One can try to attain forgiveness by the works of the law, by one's own effort which will by the law only result in death, or they can believe Jesus and accept His forgiveness, and have their sins washed away, and be no longer under the law of sin and death, and live life eternal.

We are either under the law and not born-again, or, we are born-again, and no longer bound by the the penalty of the law.

Yes, the "4th" commandment has not changed. But where you are getting caught up is in your understanding of what the sabbath is that is to be remembered. Notice it says as you pointed out, to "remember" it, it doesn't say keep the sabbath to remember it holy! You are looking at it from an "outward" appearence, by a physical interpretation, when we are to be spiritual, and the understanding is spiritual. Your understanding is carnal.

Just like circumcision. It's no longer physical of the flesh, but spiritual and of the heart, which is being circumcised of the Holy Ghost within the believer. It's now spiritual circumcision, and the spiritual sabbath at the end once evil is put down forever. That is how I believe.

And yes, you are correct, if you go by the law, then you are required to do all of them. One cannot be selective. But tell me, who has not violated the law? No man, that's for sure! And that is said in the Old Testament. The only one who could possibly walk in the flesh as a man, being tempted, and suffer persecution for no reason other than for who He is, is Jesus Christ. Jesus did perfectly what man could not by the law. In fact, all the law can do is punish. Jesus saves and forgives.

I've already kept the commandments. According to God, I have already been forgiven of my sins, thus it is Jesus within me that fulfills all the demands of the law on my behalf. Thank you Jesus.

36   Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? 
37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
38   This is the first and great commandment. 
39   And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
40   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 
Matthew 22:36-40 (KJB)

25   And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 
26   He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 
27   And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 
28   And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Luke 10:25-28 (KJB)

[Jordan]

Actually, I didn't say we are no longer under the law, it was a reference, the Holy Bible says that...

14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 
15 ¶ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 
16   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 
17   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 
18   Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 
19   I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 
20   For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 
21   What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. 
22   But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 
23   For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
Romans 6:14-23 (KJB)

Yes, God does not change...

Right and not to detract from your critical point here but lets not forget that God did make a promise to replace the law.

Jeremiah 31:31-33

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
 
Heb 8:13
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So he never changed is mind about removing the mosaic law because it was always his purpose to have it fulfilled by Jesus to begin with. As you point out there was only one man that could fulfill the law perfectly.

"For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6 (KJB)

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8 (KJB)

You misunderstand. God did not change the commandments. They are still valid, and apply to those under the law who reject Jesus. Jesus is the fulfilling of the law for those who believe. I am in no way saying the commandments, of which there are over 600, not just 10, have been changed or somehow discarded. They are not. Nothing has changed expect how man is forgiven of his violating the law.

One can try to attain forgiveness by the works of the law, by one's own effort which will by the law only result in death, or they can believe Jesus and accept His forgiveness, and have their sins washed away, and be no longer under the law of sin and death, and live life eternal.

We are either under the law and not born-again, or, we are born-again, and no longer bound by the the penalty of the law.

Yes, the "4th" commandment has not changed. But where you are getting caught up is in your understanding of what the sabbath is that is to be remembered. Notice it says as you pointed out, to "remember" it, it doesn't say keep the sabbath to remember it holy! You are looking at it from an "outward" appearence, by a physical interpretation, when we are to be spiritual, and the understanding is spiritual. Your understanding is carnal.

Just like circumcision. It's no longer physical of the flesh, but spiritual and of the heart, which is being circumcised of the Holy Ghost within the believer. It's now spiritual circumcision, and the spiritual sabbath at the end once evil is put down forever. That is how I believe.

And yes, you are correct, if you go by the law, then you are required to do all of them. One cannot be selective. But tell me, who has not violated the law? No man, that's for sure! And that is said in the Old Testament. The only one who could possibly walk in the flesh as a man, being tempted, and suffer persecution for no reason other than for who He is, is Jesus Christ. Jesus did perfectly what man could not by the law. In fact, all the law can do is punish. Jesus saves and forgives.

I've already kept the commandments. According to God, I have already been forgiven of my sins, thus it is Jesus within me that fulfills all the demands of the law on my behalf. Thank you Jesus.

36   Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? 
37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 
38   This is the first and great commandment. 
39   And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 
40   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 
Matthew 22:36-40 (KJB)

25   And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 
26   He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 
27   And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 
28   And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Luke 10:25-28 (KJB)

[lee51]

If you study carefully the word "law" you will find it can refer to the moral law (10 commandments), civil law, ceremonial laws or health laws in the OT.  The context tells you which one applies or looking in Strong's concordance which shows the greek meaning will also tell you.  Also look up the greek meaning of the word "covenant" -- Strong's concordance is a good one to use.

There is no place that says we are not to keep the 10-commandments or that they have been changed. It is true that it says in the NT that they can be summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself--because if you do care about yourself and your neighbor, you will keep the moral law. 

I find it so interesting that some people think that yes, we must not kill our neighbor, can't commit adultery, and certainly not steal, not take God's name in vain, but the 4th commandment was "changed" or "null/void" or whatever excuse people make up just because they really don't want to obey it.  And that very commandment God started with "Remember" -- I think there was a reason for it--God knew we would forget--and because most people want to follow the traditions of the Catholic church and worship on Sunday.  Very sad.

Kilika you have been very kind in your responses and I appreciate what you have said.  With Thanksgiving this next week, I'm not going to be on the computer very much.  Otherwise I'd continue this discussion.  Blessings on you this Thanksgiving season.



 

[Kilika]

Thank you, but glory be to God.

I look forward to you addressing the points made, because we clearly are in disagreement, about "the law" and "the sabbath". I need to look to see if we already have a thread on the subject of "Hebrew Roots" or "Judaizing", because that is what your alluding to.

You, and others, for some reason keep refering to multiple laws, by saying...

If you study carefully the word "law" you will find it can refer to the moral law (10 commandments), civil law, ceremonial laws or health laws in the OT.  The context tells you which one applies

All of those "laws" are of the "whole law". They are of the Word of God, are they not? So why make the distinction? I say it is to justify a false doctrine, or at least a doctrinal misunderstanding of what The New Testament is talking about when it says "the law".

We don't get to pick and choose which "law" we observe. This is why it is says that if you break one of them, your guilty of breaking ALL of them, does it not? To believe that, you cannot logically claim that people must observe SOME of the law. It just does not work.

So yes, I look forward to a more indepth reply.

(by the way, for doctrinal clarification, I must say that I don't observe such "holidays" of the pagans, but thanks anyway!  )

[Conspiracy Center]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGo35zDFZg

[Ambriel]

here is your new one world religion....

CHRISLAM

http://www.spirittruth.com/index.php?p=1_133_CHRISLAMIC-BETRAYERS-OF-CHRIST


Van Impe leaves TBN over ‘Chrislam’ remarks
http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/06/van-impe-leaves-tbn-over-chrislam-remarks.php

Here it is(watch here)!! Jack Van Impe's *new* DVD video: Chrislam One World Religion Emerging.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1691138/pg1

[Ambriel]

would someone please rip this video and put it up as a torrent with a link so I can download it.  youtube downloader is now a pay program and i am not paying for a used to be free downloader program.  thanks.

[Jordan]

would someone please rip this video and put it up as a torrent with a link so I can download it.  youtube downloader is now a pay program and i am not paying for a used to be free downloader program.  thanks.

Ambriel there is a add-on for firefox that will do the same thing for free. Chrome also has one.

http://www.downloadhelper.net/

[Ambriel]

Thanks

[Jacob Law]

What a great thread!

[shipgeek]

here is your new one world religion....

CHRISLAM

http://www.spirittruth.com/index.php?p=1_133_CHRISLAMIC-BETRAYERS-OF-CHRIST

Yup the corrupt catholic bishops love their imam friends...

 

[compguygene]

Considering that both Islam and Caltholicism have been infiltrated and changed by Freemasonry, like all of the world's major religions.  The long-term goal of the Mystery School has always been to merge this all into one Religion.  From their viewpoint, what you are calling Chrislam is just part of their right hand path.  Both the left hand path and right hand path lead to the same place, Lucifer.