JFK 1954: The Truth About Indochina = 2011: The Truth About Libya/Iraq/Etc.

(1/3) > >>

Dig:
The Truth About Indochina

Senator John F. Kennedy,

US Senate, April 6, 1954:

http://www.oreilly-fire.com/documents/jfk_1954.htm

Mr. President, the time has come for the American people to be told the blunt truth about Indochina.

I am reluctant to make any statement which may be misinterpreted as unappreciative of the gallant French struggle at Dien Bien Phu and elsewhere; or as partisan criticism of our Secretary of State just prior to his participation in the delicate deliberations in Geneva. Nor, as one who is not a member of those committees of the Congress which have been briefed--if not consulted--on this matter, do I wish to appear impetuous or alarmist in my evaluation of the situation.

But to pour money, material, and men into the jungles of Indochina without at least a remote prospect of victory would be dangerously futile and self-destructive. Of course, all discussion of “united action” assumes the inevitability of such victory; but such assumptions are not unlike similar predictions of confidence which have lulled the American people for many years and which, if continued, would present an improper basis for determining the extent of American participation.

Despite this series of optimistic reports about eventual victory, every member of the Senate knows that such victory today appears to be desperately remote, to say the least, despite tremendous amounts of economic and materiel aid from the United States, and despite a deplorable loss of French Union manpower. The call for either negotiations or additional participation by other nations underscores the remoteness of such a final victory today, regardless of the outcome at Dien Bien Phu. It is, of course, for these reasons that many French are reluctant to continue the struggle without greater assistance; for to record the sapping effect which time and the enemy have had on their will and strength in that area is not to disparage their valor. If “united action” can achieve the necessary victory over the forces of communism, and thus preserve the security and freedom of all Southeast Asia, then such united action is clearly called for. But if, on the other hand, the increase in our aid and the utilization of our troops would only result in further statements of confidence without ultimate victory over aggression, then now is the time when we must evaluate the conditions under which that pledge is made.

I am frankly of the belief that no amount of American military assistance in Indochina can conquer an enemy which is everywhere and at the same time nowhere, “an enemy of the people” which has the sympathy and covert support of the people.

Moreover, without political independence for the Associated States, the other Asiatic nations have made it clear that they regard this as a war of colonialism; and the “united action” which is said to be so desperately needed for victory in that area is likely to end up as unilateral action by our own country. Such intervention, without participation by the armed forces of the other nations of Asia, without the support of the great masses of the people of the Associated States, with increasing reluctance and discouragement on the part of the French--and, I might add, with hordes of Chinese Communist troops poised just across the border in anticipation of our unilateral entry into their kind of battleground--such intervention, Mr. President, would be virtually impossible in the type of military situation which prevails in Indochina.

This is not a new point, of course. In November of 1951, I reported upon my return from the Far East as follows:

“In Indochina we have allied ourselves to the desperate effort of a French regime to hang on to the remnants of empire. There is no broad, general support of the native Vietnam government among the people of that area. To check the southern drive of communism makes sense but not only through reliance on the force of arms. The task is rather to build strong native non-Communist sentiment within these areas and rely on that as a spearhead of defense rather than upon the legions of General de Lattre. To do this apart from and in defiance of innately nationalistic aims spells foredoomed failure.”

In June of last year, I sought an amendment to the Mutual Security Act which would have provided for the distribution of American aid, to the extent feasible, in such a way as to encourage the freedom and independence desired by the people of the Associated States My amendment was soundly defeated on the grounds that we should not pressure France into taking action on this delicate situation; and that the new French government could be expected to make “a decision which would obviate the necessity of this kind of amendment or resolution.” The distinguished majority leader [Mr. Knowland] assured us that “We will all work, in conjunction with our great ally, France, toward the freedom of the people of those states.”

Every year we are given three sets of assurances: First, that the independence of the Associated States is now complete; second, that the independence of the Associated States will soon be completed under steps “now” being undertaken; and, third, that military victory for the French Union forces in Indochina is assured, or is just around the corner, or lies two years off. But the stringent limitations upon the status of the Associated States as sovereign states remain; and the fact that military victory has not yet been achieved is largely the result of these limitations. Repeated failure of these prophecies has, however, in no way diminished the frequency of their reiteration, and they have caused this nation to delay definitive action until now the opportunity for any desirable solution may well be past.

It is time, therefore, for us to face the stark reality of the difficult situation before us without the false hopes which predictions of military victory and assurances of complete independence have given us in the past. The hard truth of the matter is, first, that without the wholehearted support of the peoples of the Associated States, without a reliable and crusading native army with a dependable officer corps, a military victory, even with American support, in that area is difficult if not impossible, of achievement; and, second, that the support of the people of that area cannot be obtained without a change in the contractual relationships which presently exist between the Associated States and the French Union.

If the French persist in their refusal to grant the legitimate independence and freedom desired by the peoples of the Associated States; and if those peoples and the other peoples of Asia remain aloof from the conflict, as they have in the past, then it is my hope that Secretary Dulles, before pledging our assistance at Geneva, will recognize the futility of channeling American men and machines into that hopeless internecine struggle.

The facts and alternatives before us are unpleasant, Mr. President. But in a nation such as ours, it is only through the fullest and frankest appreciation of such facts and alternatives that any foreign policy can be effectively maintained. In an era of supersonic attack and atomic retaliation, extended public debate and education are of no avail, once such a policy must be implemented. The time to study, to doubt, to review, and revise is now, for upon our decisions now may well rest the peace and security of the world, and, indeed, the very continued existence of mankind. And if we cannot entrust this decision to the people, then, as Thomas Jefferson once said: “If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education.”

larsonstdoc:
Quote from: Dig on March 30, 2011, 07:35:03 AM

The facts and alternatives before us are unpleasant, Mr. President. But in a nation such as ours, it is only through the fullest and frankest appreciation of such facts and alternatives that any foreign policy can be effectively maintained. In an era of supersonic attack and atomic retaliation, extended public debate and education are of no avail, once such a policy must be implemented. The time to study, to doubt, to review, and revise is now, for upon our decisions now may well rest the peace and security of the world, and, indeed, the very continued existence of mankind. And if we cannot entrust this decision to the people, then, as Thomas Jefferson once said: “If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education.”

Boy, they sure haven't learned anything in 57 years. They are still meddling in things that they shouldn't meddle in and not studying things out before they act. WE ARE RUN BY WAR-HAPPY PSYCHOPATHIC MORONS.

TahoeBlue:
Excellent find... Between Dulles, Harriman, Meyer - JFK was foobar...

They originally wanted the UN Building on the west coast at Moraga - I'm trying to remember who owned all the land back then, it was Standard Oil = Rockefeller )

Moraga now has many gated communities and many Government types living there....
Update - No it was a Standard Oil Crony Donald Rheem , so yes Rockefeller owned the Moraga California - UN intended Land.....

http://www.wjasper.com/Moragahistory.html
Moraga's History
...
While the Moraga Land Association, Hooper and lastly the Moraga Company had been actively buying and developing most of the rancho over all these years, the only parcel that Carpentier never owned, the Williams parcel, had undergone a number of changes. It had changed hands twice -- first to the Lucas family and then to two young women who had a proposed residence for homeless children built upon it.

It was purchased in 1934 by Donald Rheem, the son of a former President of Standard Oil of California. He added to the estate and ultimately bought 1,650 acres of rancho land which he developed into the Rheem center in 1954 and surrounding subdivisions. The estate, now known as the Hacienda de las Flores, was bought by the Christian Brothers in 1961, the Moraga Park and Recreation Authority in 1973, and the Town of Moraga in 1977.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Moraga.ca&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

for background:
Bilderberger's in the Kennedy Administration

JFK Addresses UN

Alger Hiss at UN conference 1945

John F. Kennedy attended the San Francisco conference at which fifty founding
... plus Poland — signed the Charter of the United Nations on June 26, 1945

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/facts-about-john-f-kennedy.html
Interesting Facts About John F Kennedy
... An author before being elected President, he wrote the book 'Profiles in Courage' for which he won the Pulitzer Prize. JFK, an avid reader, was a big fan of James Bond and read Ian Fleming's books. ... . After he retired from the military service as a full lieutenant in March 1945, he worked for a newspaper for several months writing about the United Nations Conference on International Organization in San Francisco, the Potsdam Conference and the British elections of 1945.

The Sequoia Seminars - 1954 - LSD Therapy - History
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmeyerC.htm

Mary and Cord Meyer on their wedding day (1945)
Cord Meyer
...
On 21st July, 1944, a Japanese grenade was thrown into his foxhole. He was so badly injured that when he was found he was initially declared to be dead. In fact, his commanding officer sent a telegram to his parents announcing he had died. Although he lost his left eye he was eventually well enough to be sent home. Soon afterwards his twin brother, Quentin, was killed at Okinawa.

While recovered in New York City Meyer met the journalist, Mary Pinchot. The couple married on 19th April, 1945. The couple then went to San Francisco to attend the conference that established the United Nations. Cord went as an aide to Harold Stassen, whereas Mary, who was working for the North American Newspaper Alliance at the time, was one of the reporters sent to cover this important event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheem,_California
Rheem (also, Rheem Valley[1] and Rheem Center[2]) is an unincorporated community in Contra Costa County, California. It is located 7.5 miles (12 km) north-northwest of Danville,[2] at an elevation of 587 feet (179 m).

The place was named after its developer, Donald I. Rheem, the son of William Rheem, President of Standard Oil Company

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rheem
William S. Rheem (1862 – April 19, 1919[1]), aka W.S. Rheem, was an important civic figure in the politics of early Richmond, California in addition to being president of Standard Oil.[1]
...
Rheem arrived in Richmond after finding a spot for a new refinery to replace an existing and unexpandable location in Alameda.[2] He picked a spot in the Point Richmond District along the Potrero Hills and the Marshlands

Quote from: TahoeBlue on December 03, 2010, 10:23:15 AM

They never tell people that we were fighting the RUSSIANS!
Where did the ZERO GDP North Vietnam get all the ordinance for years? TANKS and SAM sites? millions of AK's?

VF-32 Outlaw's Bandits (Est 1 Jun 1943, Dis 13 Nov 1945) (F6F-3/5)

http://www.maam.org/flightsim/news/tbm_langley.htm

WWII Ace - Navy Cross - Cinqpaq Rear Admiral Ed Cobb Outlaw - tells the truth about Vietnam:

Carriers in combat the air war at sea - Vietnam - By Chester G. Hearn

Rolling Thunder - Cambodian supply depots off limits - SOVIET SA-2 SAM sites shot down 115 american planes
"We were restrained to carrying out a campaign which seemed designed NOT to win" because RUSSIAN technicians might be killed.
McNamara did not allow pilots to attack any installation where MIG's were based.

Soviet SA-2 SAM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina
The S-75 Dvina (Russian: С-75; NATO reporting name SA-2 Guideline) is a Soviet-designed, high-altitude, command guided, surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. Since its first deployment in 1957, it has become the most widely-deployed and -used air defense missile in history

This system first gained fame when an S-75 battery shot down a U-2 overflying the Soviet Union in 1960. Later, North Vietnamese forces used the S-75 extensively during the Vietnam War to defend Hanoi and Haiphong
...
In 1965 North Vietnam asked for some assistance against the US's airpower, which they were essentially defenseless against at the time. After some discussion it was agreed to supply the PAVN with the S-75. The decision was not made lightly, because it greatly increased the chances that one would fall into US hands for study. Site preparation started early in the year, and the US detected the program almost immediately on April 5, 1965. While military planners pressed for the sites to be attacked before they could become operational, their political leaders refused, fearing that Soviet technical staff might be killed.[citation needed]

On July 24, 1965, a USAF F-4C aircraft was shot down by an SA-2.[3] Three days later, the US responded with Operation Iron Hand to attack the other sites before they could become operational. Most of the S-75 were deployed around the Hanoi-Haiphong area and were off-limits to attack (as were local airfields) for political reasons. President Lyndon Johnson announced on public TV that one of the other sites would be attacked the next week. The Vietnamese removed the missiles and replaced them with decoys, while moving every available anti-aircraft gun into the approach routes. The tactic worked, causing American casualties.

http://www.vnafmamn.com/Valiant_Anloc.html
It should be noticed that the ARVN ground forces at An Loc have been armed with the "humble" M-72s (no good for firing at Soviet heavy battle Tanks, it works only when firing at the right spot and with luck) and home-made, modified anti-tank "mines." Why? Because at this difficult phase of Vietnam war, Uncle Sam was in the process of pulling out. No more Yankee ground troops around, but only the advisory teams. And now, brace yourselves, you are descending into hell: Battle of An Loc. April 1972

NORTH VIETNAMESE COMMUNISTS' TANKS DESTROYED AROUND AN LOC

http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vietimages/nva-tank.html

A North Vietnamese tank crashes through the gates of the Presidential Palace in Saigon on April 30, 1975

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Vietnam_War

A U.S. Army M.P. inspects a Soviet AK-47 recovered in Vietnam in 1968.

http://ussintrepidfcmassociation.org/intrepidfighteraces.aspx
Outlaw, Edward C., Cdr., VF-32, USS Langley (CVL-27), CO USS Intrepid (CVA-11) - 6
Born 1914 in Greenville, NC; Public Schools, Goldboro, NC.; USNA '35, Retired, Durham, NC '69.

Flight Training, Pensacola '37-'38. USS Enterprise, Scouting Squadron 6. '42 deployed to Pacific as XO (VC-11) flying F4F (Wildcats).
Led flight of 54 from Fiji to Guadalcanal to re-enforce Marine Corps. He served there as leader of the Navy Fighter Group.
'43 formed VF-32 as CO. Deployed on USS Langley .
April 29, '44, he led a flight of 8 Hellcats on a pre-dawn fighter sweep over Truk atoll; at dawn sighted a flight of aout 36 Japanese Zeroes flying at 10,000 ft in column of V's; first pass his flight flamed 8; then, exercising perfect discipline "Holly" Hills (4 kills) led his division to "high cover" where they accounted for seven of the enemy.
Cdr. Outlaw shot down 5 and 1 probable, fellow Ace, Dick May got 3 and Outlaw's wingman 4.
Total for this brief action was 22 victories and 6 probables.

The action took place in less than ten minutes and was declared by COMNAVAIRPAC to be "a perfect example of air combat and air discipline."

Subsequently, he served three times in Pentagon; as CO of USS Duxbury Bay and USS Intrepid; as CO Air Group Six (Coral Sea);
CO Heavy Attack Squadron five (NucWpns).
Selected to rank of Rear Admiral and served as Commander Naval Aviation Safety Center;
Commander Carrier Division One and Task Force 77 of Vietnam '64-'65 where he directed first sustained attacks;
Commander CARDIVS 16 and 20 and Commander Hunter-Killer Force, Atlantic Fleet.

His last assignment was as Commander Fleet Aircraft Mediterranean/CTF-67/ and Maritime Air Mediterranean (a NATO orgnization of which he was the first commander).
Decorations: Navy Cross, Legion of Merit (3), DFC (3)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_People's_Air_Force

1964-1974 (North Vietnam)
...
The North Vietnamese Air Force (NVAF) received its first jet fighter aircraft, the MiG-17 in February 1964, but they were initially stationed at air bases in Communist China, while their pilots were being trained. On February 3, 1964, the first fighter regiment No. 921 "Sao Do" was formed (Trung Đoàn Không Quân Tiêm Kích 921), and on August 6 it arrived from China in North Vietnam with its MiG-17s.[2] On September 7, the No. 923 fighter regiment "Yen The", led by Lt. Binh Bui, was formed. In May 1965, No. 929 bomber squadron (Đại Đội Không Quân Ném Bom 929) was formed with Il-28 twin engine bombers. Only one Il-28 sortie was flown in 1972 against Laotian forces.

The North Vietnamese Air Force's first jet air-to-air engagement with U.S. aircraft was on April 3, 1965. The NVAF claimed the shooting down of one US Navy F-8 Crusader, which was not confirmed by US sources, although they acknowledged having encountered MiGs.[2] Consequently, April 3 became "North Vietnamese Air Force Day". On April 4 the VPAF (NVAF) scored the first confirmed victories to be acknowledged by both sides. The US fighter community was shocked when relatively slow, post-Korean era MiG-17 fighters shot down advanced F-105 Thunderchief fighters-bombers attacking the Thanh Hoa Bridge. The two downed F-105s were carrying their normal heavy bomb load, and were not able to react to their attackers.[2]

In 1965, the NVAF were supplied with supersonic MiG-21s by the USSR which were used for high speed GCI controlled hit and run intercepts against USAF strike groups. The MiG-21 tactics became so effective, that by late 1966, an operation was mounted to especially deal with the MiG-21 threat. Led by Colonel Robin Olds on January 2, 1967, Operation Bolo lured MiG-21s into the air, thinking they were intercepting a F-105 strike group, but instead found a sky full of missile armed F-4 Phantom II Phantoms set for aerial combat. The result was a loss of almost half the inventory of MiG-21 interceptors, at a cost of no US losses. The VPAF (NVAF) stood down for additional training after this setback.

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm
Jane Fonda sitting on an NVA anti-aircraft gun were really her

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_globalbanking12.htm
The best enemy Money can Buy - Antony Sutton

Americans killed by US made weapons in the Korea and the Vietnam war

“In Korea we have direct killing of Americans with Soviet weapons. The American casualty roll in the Korean War was 33,730 killed and 103,284 wounded… The 130,000-man North Korean Army, which crossed the South Korean border in June 1950, was trained, supported, and equipped by the Soviet Union, and included a brigade of Soviet T-34 medium tanks (with U.S. Christie suspensions). The artillery tractors were direct metric copies of Caterpillar tractors. The trucks came from the Henry Ford-Gorki plant or the ZIL plant. The North Korean Air Force has 180 Yak planes built in plants with U.S. Lend-Lease equipment. These Yaks were later replaced by MiG-15s powered by Russian copies of Rolls-Royce jet engines sold to the Soviet Union in 1947.”
...
“Who were the government officials responsible for this transfer of known military technology? The concept originally came from National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger, who reportedly sold President Nixon on the idea that giving military technology to the Soviets would temper their global territorial ambitions. How Henry arrived at this gigantic non sequitur is not known. Sufficient to state that he aroused considerable concern over his motivations. Not least that Henry [Ford] had been a paid family employee of the Rockefellers since 1958 and has served as International Advisory Committee Chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank, a Rockefeller concern.”

“Some years ago research strongly suggested that the Soviets had no indigenous military transport technology: neither motor vehicles nor marine diesel engines. Yet about 80 percent of the weapons and supplies for the North Vietnamese were transported by some means from the Soviet Union. The greater part of these Soviet weapons went to Vietnam by Soviet freighter and then along the Ho Chi Minh trail on Soviet-built trucks…

Update: Forgot the Soviet RPG

http://vietnamwar-guns.com/shop/product_details.php?p=53
Operating principle: Gas-operated launcher that can fire 6mm BB shot shells, 40mm airsoft/movie prop grenades, nerf-rockets and other types of gaming suited harmless "soft projectiles".

RPG-7 History
Soviet RPG-7 (or Chicom copy Type-69)was a common multi-purpose heavy weapon system for NVA and Vietcong who used it in direct firesupport, anti-armour, anti-helicopter and bunker busting roles.

Soviet RPG-7 was used by VC and NVA from 1967 onwards and was particularly effective against aluminum hullled M113 APCs. It's main role was, however, anti-personnel. Easy-to-use, lightweight and powerful RPG-7 and it's variants are still used world-wide.

All of these weapons were 40mm and capable of penetrating up to 6" of armour at ranges of 100 - 500 meters. Sights consisted of simple iron sights or optional more sophisticated range finding optical sight.

Oh before the RPG-7 was the RPG-2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-2
The RPG-2 was the first rocket-propelled grenade launcher designed in the Soviet Union.

North Vietnamese troops with RPG-2 (B-40), 1968.

TahoeBlue:
bump - forgot about the soviet RPG's

http://www.scalecraft.com/browseproducts/Mig-17---NVAF.HTML

Mig-17 / NVAF - This deadly Russian fighter earned the respect of U.S. pilots in the war-torn skies over Vietnam. Flown by North Vietnamese pilots, the MiG-17 boasted excellent maneuverability and a heavy cannon armament.

http://www.scaleworkshop.com/gallery/mig21mfmeme_1.htm

http://avstop.com/news/sv2.html

MIKOYAN-GUREVICH MIG-21F "FISHBED"
...
So, Rolling Thunder began again and U.S. aircrews not only had to attack the new targets, but also those they had already destroyed which had been rebuilt or repaired. On Sep. 3, 1966, North Vietnam sent up its MiG-21s in force for the first time from five air bases which had not previously been attacked because of U.S. policy. By the end of the year, Rolling Thunder had progressed northward, reaching the Hanoi area.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/weapons_02.html
...most of their weapons, uniforms, and equipment were provided by the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China...
MiG-21
The Soviet MiG-21 served as the primary high-altitude fighter in the North Vietnamese arsenal

T-54/55 Tank
The N.V.A. relied on the Soviet-made T-54/55 as one of their main battle tanks.

DP 7.62mm Light Machine Gun
Based on a Soviet design, the DP 7.62 was provided by both China and the Soviet Union

SA7 Grail Anti-Aircraft Missile
In North Vietnam, American pilots faced a deadly barrage of radar-guided, base-stationed anti-aircraft fire

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/FYS.HTM

It was later observed in action in Vietnam where it met with more success. The SA-7 is a 9.2 kg missile powered by a solid fuel, three-stage rocket motor and guided by a passive infra-red guidance system

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm
The SA-7 was the first generation of Soviet man portable surface-to-air missiles

Rifle - SK-47
Both the Chinese and the Russians provided variations on the SK-47 rifle in quantity to Communist forces.
http://www.mississauga.com/Mississauga/Article/160297

Grenades and Anti-Personnel Devices
In addition to standard mines provided by their backers in China and the Soviet Union, Communist troops used a variety of anti-personnel devices,

BTR 60 Armored Personnel Carrier
The Soviet-made BTR armored personnel carrier served as the Vietnamese counterpart of the M113

By Sea, Air, and Land: An Illustrated History of the U.S. Navy and the War in Southeast Asia
http://www.history.navy.mil/seairland/index.html

chris jones:
MONEY= POWER.
WARS=PROFITS, without profit there would be no war.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page