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Author Topic: Any Muslims out there? I've got questions.  (Read 12760 times)
decemberfellow
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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2011, 05:15:47 PM »

 It seems to me that Citizenx wanted to simplify this when he posted : 
Quote
As I stated in the title, Christian fundies or zealots need not apply.  My real goal is to make this a legitimate locus of cross-cultural understanding, and not a place to go to proselytize or save someone's soul -- from any religious perspective.

 
And I think he was asking in laymens terms
If ya want to know about farming, ask a farmer
If ya want to know about upholstery ask an upholsterer or a car engine ask a mechanic....

I first read this yesterday, and seeing it today, I thought man must be a lot of Muslim members!
 
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Mark12:
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
citizenx
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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2011, 05:30:54 PM »

It seems to me that Citizenx wanted to simplify this when he posted :   
 
And I think he was asking in laymens terms
If ya want to know about farming, ask a farmer
 
Yes.
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rabblevox
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2011, 12:02:04 PM »

It seems to me that Citizenx wanted to simplify this when he posted :   
 
And I think he was asking in laymens terms
If ya want to know about farming, ask a farmer
If ya want to know about upholstery ask an upholsterer or a car engine ask a mechanic....

Cute analogy, completely invalid.  "If you want to know about lung cancer, ask a smoker" makes just as much sense.
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"It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake."

Frederick Douglass
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2011, 12:19:24 PM »

im sorry, can you disprove it? lets see you try.

By your "logic" it seems you could possibly disprove the notion that Jesus is nothing more than a SUN GOD anthropomorphizing? you know....the "Son Of God" "Light Of The World"....
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"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
citizenx
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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2011, 02:15:52 PM »

Cute analogy, completely invalid.  "If you want to know about lung cancer, ask a smoker" makes just as much sense.

My father died of lung cancer.  He was a smoker.  His doctor said 90 percent or so of people with his type of lung cancer were smokers.

What was your point again?

What did Bob Marley die of BTW?

Are you comparing Islam to cancer?

WTF!?
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decemberfellow
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« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2011, 02:29:09 PM »

Quote
Cute analogy, completely invalid.  "If you want to know about lung cancer, ask a smoker" makes just as much sense

How does that make as much sense?  This makes sense  If you want to know about lung cancer ask a doctor.    Good luck with this citizen X, May of been  interesting but got off track.   Ok I am done in here now, seeins I am not a muslim. 
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Mark12:
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
citizenx
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2011, 02:35:51 PM »

It's OK, I understand.
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rabblevox
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« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2011, 07:03:46 PM »

My father died of lung cancer.  He was a smoker.  His doctor said 90 percent or so of people with his type of lung cancer were smokers.

What was your point again?

What did Bob Marley die of BTW?

Are you comparing Islam to cancer?

WTF!?

As did my mother, you have both my sympathy and my empathy.

My point was that it was a bad analogy. I'm sticking to that.

Bob Marley, BTW, died of a form of melanoma, completely unrelated to lung cancer, and probably hereditary.

And to suggest that I'm comparing Islam with cancer is a stupid, insulting, unfounded accusation.  I defy you to find a single post where I've even remotely implied that.

So yeah, WTF?
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"It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake."

Frederick Douglass
citizenx
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« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2011, 07:11:20 PM »

Well, if I really wanted to find out about cancer, yes, I might ask a cancer victim or a cancer survivor, though I think the comparison is odious myself.

And, if you don't see how the comparison between Islam and a cancer was implicit in your question, I suggest you rethink it.

In any event, once again, how many random posters post unsolicited opinions on Christian theology and scripture on this very forum, or pose question a about the same?

Why not pose questions directed at another religion or members of another religion?

It doesn't look like we have any Islamic regulars any more anyway.

The holy rollers must have frightened them off.

That's too bad.

The point, therefore, seems somewhat moot right now anyway as nobody has shown up, other than a fundie, a rastafarian and some other open-minded people like myself.

And thank God there are still a few of those left.
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rabblevox
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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2011, 08:15:07 PM »

Well, if I really wanted to find out about cancer, yes, I might ask a cancer victim or a cancer survivor, though I think the comparison is odious myself.

And, if you don't see how the comparison between Islam and a cancer was implicit in your question, I suggest you rethink it.

In any event, once again, how many random posters post unsolicited opinions on Christian theology and scripture on this very forum, or pose question a about the same?

Why not pose questions directed at another religion or members of another religion?

It doesn't look like we have any Islamic regulars any more anyway.

The holy rollers must have frightened them off.

That's too bad.

The point, therefore, seems somewhat moot right now anyway as nobody has shown up, other than a fundie, a rastafarian and some other open-minded people like myself.

And thank God there are still a few of those left.

Actually, a number of other folk have "showed up".  Have you even read your own thread? 

Calling me a Rastafarian because I chose Bob Marley as an avatar for the site?  That displays a level of ignorance that could start a cascade effect.

As to "open-minded people like myself"?

All I've seen you do is bark stupidity... Far from "open-minded",  you are stuck in your own delusions, and actively try to infect others. I hope you don't breed.
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"It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake."

Frederick Douglass
citizenx
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« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2011, 08:33:25 PM »

Too late, but I hope you take your own advice.
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rabblevox
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« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2011, 08:45:02 PM »

Too late, but I hope you take your own advice.

Too late, quite pleased with my kids, thank you. 

You have still not answered a single point I raised.
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"It is not light that we need, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake."

Frederick Douglass
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Bury the past, rob us blind, leave nothing behind.


« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2011, 08:45:16 PM »

glad to see you guys staying right on topic, fundie christian out  Tongue
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Beat Bailout Barry!!!!!!!!
agentbluescreen
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« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2011, 09:44:56 PM »

Well seems like unless or until we can goad some poor unsuspecting Muslim into getting his or her faith trashed in here, this is doomed to become a moot discussion.

What's worse still is that Corporate Islamic Fascism itself has many divisions, even broader than the mere Monarchist Sunni Fascist and Democratic Shiite Fascist varieties.

In fact the Sufi faith is far more "Christian" than the vast majority of either Eastern or Western Corporate Constantinian Fascism or any of it's Corporate Protestant Fascism's are.
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Real Pilgrim
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« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2011, 11:51:47 AM »

I am not a Muslim, but I would like to say just one thing about something that was mentioned in this thread, and then I will quickly leave.

The flag the Muslim people use today, i.e. the crescent moon and the five-pointed star is exactly the same flag or standard that was flown over the ancient city of Ur, during the Ur III dynasty, well over 4000 years ago. The ancient god of Ur was then called ‘Nannar Sin’ and it is quite probable that Allah is to be considered an avatar, incarnation or aspect of this same ancient god.

Nannar Sin was indeed a moon god and he was indeed the god of Abraham’s ancestral race. Historically, Abraham left Ur at the same time that Sumer, Ur and the Akkadian culture were engulfed in a very horrible war led by the Elamites (very ancient Persians) and the “Gutian hordes.” There are many ancient texts describing this war, and mostly they are categorized as “The Lamentation Texts of Ur” as well as “The Curse of the Agade.” Also, the epic poem called “Erra and Ishum” or “When Erra destroyed the World” describes the same series of events. This war was ordained by Sumer’s primordial god, a deity known as Enlil, who was the father of Nannar Sin. He brought war down on Sumer because the grandson of Sargon the Great, Naram Sin, had defiled Enlil’s temple at Nippur. There are several translations of these texts available on the Internet.

From a historical point of view, it may be realistic to say that Abraham was probably leading a coalition of war refugees out of Sumer. The Hittite city of Haran, which was Abraham first destination, was known as “the little Ur” and was also a city famously devoted to the worship of Nannar Sin.

At some point, Abraham appears to have rejected the gods of his forefathers.

Bye.
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citizenx
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« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2011, 02:26:53 PM »

How do you know what flag was flown over what city 4000 years ago?

Proof?

Sources?

Evidence?

Or, hit and run trolling?

Bye.
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Real Pilgrim
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« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2011, 08:52:16 PM »

Actually, the proof can be observed in countless cylinder seals from Sumer and the Ur III dynasty. Nannar Sin (also spelled Suen) is always identified by the crescent moon and five-pointed star depicted in the sky over his head.

Throughout antiquity, the names of various gods often changed as they were morphed or “absorbed” by later civilizations but the identifying symbols of these gods never-the-less always remained the same. 

Here’s some proof; just scroll down until you find the section on Nannar or Nanna Sin…

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-photos-moon-worship-archealolgy.htm
http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/origsin.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods1.html

You’ll find lots more proof if you do an internet search on “Nannar Sin.”

No intent to troll here; just an avid interest and dedication to understanding ancient history… Smiley
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citizenx
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2011, 12:28:19 AM »

Well, there is no mention of Allah on the crytstallinks page which I think I have read before.

I'll check the others.

Not impressed so far, so are you like a New Ager or fundie?  Crytallinks is a New Ager site.

I guess y'all some things in common.

Party down.
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citizenx
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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2011, 01:01:29 AM »

"Like El and al-Llah which simply means god..."

from your own source --

http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/origsin.htm
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Real Pilgrim
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« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2011, 01:50:01 AM »

I was simply attempting to point out that Islam claims that it is the religion of Abraham. There was no god named "Allah" in Abrahams' day, but Abraham's hometown, Ur, was dedicated to the worship of Nannar Sin, who shares the same symbol with Allah.

As to the URLs I posted, I have no affinity with any of those sites; I just quickly googled "Nannar Sin" and posted the first available links that seemed in agreement with the known archaeological facts.

I was simply trying to be helpful.

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citizenx
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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2011, 02:07:21 AM »

(In my best John Wayne) Well, Pilgrim, I'm simply trying to be helpful as well.

El and Allah are cognates, meaning "God/god/high one".

Elohim comes from the same root, it means high ones (plural).  It has a masculine ending on a feminine singular - Eloah (high one}.

It looks like the ancient Israelites/Canaanites borrowed the word from the "high ones" or "high gods" of Babylon, Sumer, Babylon.

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citizenx
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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2011, 03:02:26 AM »

Allah

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Name of Allāh written in Arabic calligraphy (right to left) by 17th century Ottoman artist Hâfız OsmanAllah (Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh]  ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.[1] The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God in the context of Islam. It is also used by Arabic speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Bahá'ís, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians, in reference to God.[1][2][3]

 
The Arabic components that build-up the word "Allah"The term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ʼilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the [sole] deity, God" (ho theos monos).[4] Cognates of the name "Allāh" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.[3] Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural form (but functional singular) Elohim. The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac.[5]

The name was previously used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator deity, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.[4][6] The concepts associated with the term Allah (as a deity) differ among religious traditions. In pre-Islamic Arabia amongst pagan Arabs, Allah was not considered the sole divinity, having associates and companions, sons and daughters–a concept which Islam thoroughly and resolutely did away with. In Islam, the name Allah is the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. All other divine names are believed to refer back to Allah.[7] Allah is unique, the only Deity, creator of the universe and omnipotent.[1][2] Arab Christians today use terms such as Allāh al-ʼAb ( الله الأب, "God the Father") to distinguish their usage from Muslim usage.[8] There are both similarities and differences between the concept of God as portrayed in the Qur'an and the Hebrew Bible.[9] It has also been applied to certain living human beings as personifications of the term and concept.[10][11]

Unicode has a codepoint reserved for Allāh, ﷲ = U+FDF2.[12] Many Arabic type fonts feature special ligatures for Allah.[13]

Contents [hide]
1 Usage in Arabic
1.1 Pre-Islamic Arabia
1.2 Islam
1.3 Christianity
1.4 Judaism
2 As a loanword
2.1 English and other European languages
2.2 Malaysian and Indonesian language
2.3 In other scripts and languages
3 Typography
3.1 Unicode
4 Notes
5 See also
6 References
7 External links
 
Usage in ArabicPre-Islamic ArabiaIn pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.[14]

 
Allah at Rohtas Fort PakistanAllah was not considered the sole divinity; however, Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. The notion of the term may have been vague in the Meccan religion.[4] Allah was associated with companions, whom pre-Islamic Arabs considered as subordinate deities. Meccans held that a kind of kinship existed between Allah and the jinn.[15] Allah was thought to have had sons[16] and that the local deities of al-ʻUzzá, Manāt and al-Lāt were His daughters.[17] The Meccans possibly associated angels with Allah.[18][19] Allah was invoked in times of distress.[19][20] Muhammad's father's name was ‘Abdallāh meaning the “servant of Allāh.” or "the slave of Allāh"[19]

IslamMain article: God in Islam
See also: Names of God in the Qur'an
 
Medallion showing 'Allah' in Hagia Sophia, Istanbul, Turkey.According to Islamic belief, Allah is the proper name of God,[21] and humble submission to His Will, Divine Ordinances and Commandments is the pivot of the Muslim faith.[1] "He is the only God, creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind."[1][2] "He is unique (wahid) and inherently one (ahad), all-merciful and omnipotent."[1] The Koran declares "the reality of Allah, His inaccessible mystery, His various names, and His actions on behalf of His creatures."[1]

 
Allah script outside Eski Cami (The Old Mosque) in Edirne, Turkey.In Islamic tradition, there are 99 Names of God (al-asma al-husna lit. meaning: "The best names") each of which evoke a distinct characteristic of Allah.[2][22] All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name.[7] Among the 99 names of God, the most famous and most frequent of these names are "the Merciful" (al-rahman) and "the Compassionate" (al-rahim).[2][22]

Most Muslims use the untranslated Arabic phrase "insha' Allah" (meaning "God willing") after references to future events.[23] Muslim discursive piety encourages beginning things with the invocation of "bismillah"(meaning "In the name of God").[24]

There are certain phrases in praise of God that are favored by Muslims, including "Subhan-Allah" (Holiness be to God), "Alhamdulillah" (Praise be to God), "La-il-la-ha-illa-Allah" (There is no deity but God) and "Allāhu Akbar" (God is great) as a devotional exercise of remembering God (zikr).[25] In a Sufi practice known as zikr Allah (lit. remembrance of God), the Sufi repeats and contemplates on the name Allah or other divine names while controlling his or her breath.[26]

Some scholars[who?] have suggested that Muhammad used the term Allah in addressing both pagan Arabs and Jews or Christians in order to establish a common ground for the understanding of the name for God, a claim Gerhard Böwering says is doubtful.[21] According to Böwering, in contrast with Pre-Islamic Arabian polytheism, God in Islam does not have associates and companions nor is there any kinship between God and jinn.[21] Pre-Islamic pagan Arabs believed in a blind, powerful, inexorable and insensible fate over which man had no control. This was replaced with the Islamic notion of a powerful but provident and merciful God.[27]

According to Francis Edwards Peters, "The Koran insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews (29:46). The Koran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham". Peters states that the Koran portrays Allah as both more powerful and more remote than Yahweh, and as a universal deity, unlike Yahweh who closely follows Israelites.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
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citizenx
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« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2011, 03:17:51 AM »

"The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac."


If its good enough for Jesus, ("Isa", P.B.U.H.), its good enough for me.
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citizenx
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« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2011, 03:27:48 AM »

Elohim

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (אֱל, ʾēl [1]). It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".[2]

The singular forms eloah (אלוה) and el (אֱל) are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim.[3]

The notion of divinity underwent radical changes throughout the period of early Israelite identity. The ambiguity of the term Elohim is the result of such changes, cast in terms of "vertical translatability" by Smith (2008); i.e. the re-interpretation of the gods of the earliest recalled period as the national god of the monolatrism as it emerged in the 7th to 6th century BC in the Kingdom of Judah and during the Babylonian captivity, and further in terms of monotheism by the emergence of Rabbinical Judaism in the 2nd century AD.[4]

In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).

Contents [hide]
1 Etymology
2 Canaanite religion
3 Elohist
4 Hebrew Bible
4.1 God of Israel
4.2 Pagan gods, angels and judges
4.3 Ambiguous readings
4.4 Other plural-singulars in Biblical Hebrew
5 Related phrases
5.1 Sons of God
6 Rabbinic Judaism
7 Christian Bible translations
8 See also
9 References
 
[edit] EtymologyFurther information: El (deity), Ilah, and Allah
The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible defines "elohim" as a plural of eloah, an expanded form of the common Semitic noun "'il" (ʾēl).[5] It contains an added heh as third radical to the biconsonantal root. Discussions of the etymology of elohim essentially concern this expansion. An exact cognate outside of Hebrew is found in Ugaritic ʾlhm, the family of El, the creator god and chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon, and in Arabic ʾilāh "god, deity" (or Allah as " The [single] God"). "El" (the basis for the extended root ʾlh) is usually derived from a root meaning "to be strong" and/or "to be in front".[6]

[edit] Canaanite religionFurther information: Canaanite religion
The word el is also the standard term for "god" in other related Semitic languages including Ugaritic. Elohim plural is the gods. In the Ugaritic Baal cycle we read of "seventy sons of Asherah" (KTU2 1.4.VI.46).[7]

[edit] ElohistFurther information: Elohist
Elohim occurs frequently throughout the received text of the Torah. In some cases (e.g. Exodus 3:4, "... Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush ..."), it acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar, and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel. In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah, and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.").

The choice of word or words for God varies in the Hebrew Bible. According to the documentary hypothesis these variations are evidence of different source texts: Elohim is used as the name of God in the Elohist and the Priestly source, while Yahweh is used in the Jahwist source. The difference in names results from the theological point being made in the Elohist and Priestly sources that God did not reveal his name, Yahweh, to any man before the time of Moses.

While the Jahwist presented an anthropomorphic God who could walk through the Garden of Eden looking for Adam and Eve, the Elohist frequently involves angels. For example, it is the Elohist version of the tale of Jacob's ladder in which there is a ladder of angels with God at the top, whereas in the Jahwist tale, it is just a dream in which God is simply above the location, without the ladder or angels. Likewise, the Elohist describes Jacob actually wrestling with God.

The classical documentary hypothesis as developed in the late 19th century assumed that the Elohist portions of the Torah were composed in the 9th century BCE (i.e. during the early period of the Kingdom of Judah). This is far from universally accepted today, as there is evidence of a later "Elohist redaction" (post-exilic) during the 5th century BCE which makes it difficult to determine whether a given passage is "Elohist" in origin, or only as a result of late redaction.

[edit] Hebrew BibleThe word Elohim' occurs more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Bible, with meanings ranging from "god" in a general sense (as in Exodus 12:12, where it describes "the gods of Egypt"), to a specific god (e.g., 1 Kings 11:33, where it describes Chemosh "the god of Moab", or the frequent references to Yahweh as the "elohim" of Israel), to demons, seraphim, and other supernatural beings, to the spirits of the dead brought up at the behest of King Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13, and even to kings and prophets (e.g., Exodus 4:16).[8] The phrase bene elohim, usually translated "sons of God", has an exact parallel in Ugaritic and Phoenician texts, referring to the council of the gods.[9]

The meaning of Elohim is further complicated by the fact that it is used to describe the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel, raised by Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she sees 'gods' (elohim) coming up out of the earth; this seems to indicate that the term was indeed used simply to mean something like 'divine beings' in ancient Israel. The Elohim as a pantheon might also have been considered a singular in the sense of m a collective plural when the gods act in concert.

[edit] God of IsraelIn the Hebrew Bible Elohim, when meaning the God of Israel, is mostly grammatically singular. Even in Genesis 1:26 "Then God said (singular verb), 'Let us make (plural verb) man in our image, after our likeness'." Elohim is singular. Gesenius and other Hebrew grammarians traditionally described this as the pluralis excellentiae (plural of excellence), which is similar to the pluralis majestatis (plural of majesty, or "Royal we").[10]

Gesenius comments that Elohim singular is to be distinguished from elohim plural gods and remarks that:

"the supposition that elohim‎ is to be regarded as merely a remnant of earlier polytheistic views (i.e. as originally only a numerical plural) is at least highly improbable, and, moreover, would not explain the analogous plurals (below). To the same class (and probably formed on the analogy of elohim) belong the plurals kadoshim "the Most Holy" (only of Yahweh, Hosea 12:1, Proverbs 9:10, 30:3 (cf. El hiym kadoshim in Joshua 24:19 and the singular Aramaic "the Most High", Daniel 7:18, 22, 25); and probably teraphim (usually taken in the sense of penates) the image of a god, used especially for obtaining oracles. Certainly in 1 Samuel 19:13, 16 only one image is intended; in most other places a single image may be intended; in Zechariah 10:2 alone is it most naturally taken as a numerical plural.[11]
There are a number of notable exceptions to the rule that Elohim is treated as singular when referring to the God of Israel, including Gen. 20:13, 35:7, 2 Sam. 7:23 and Ps. 58:11, and notably the epithet of the "Living God" (Deuteronomy 5:26 etc.), which is constructed with the plural adjective, Elohim Hayiym אלהים חיים but still takes singular verbs. In the Septuagint and New Testament translations of Elohim has the singular ὁ θεὸς even in these cases, and modern translations follow suit in giving "God" in the singular. The Samaritan Torah has edited out some of these exceptions.[12]

In Gen 20:13 Abraham before Philistine king Abimelech says that "the gods (elohim) caused (plural verb) me to wander".[13] The Greek Septuagint and most English versions usually translate this "God caused", possibly to avoid the implication of Abraham deferring to Abimelech's polytheistic beliefs.[14]

Two similar elohim + plural verses are:

Gen. 35:7 "and there he built an altar and called the place El-bethel, because there God had revealed (plural) themselves to him when he fled from his brother."
2 Sam. 7:23 God went (plural halechu) to redeem his people.
[edit] Pagan gods, angels and judgesBrown-Driver-Briggs and other sources list both angels and judges as possible alternative meanings of elohim + plural verbs and adjectives.

For example of 2606 occurrences of elohim in the Hebrew Bible (equivalent to the Protestant canonical portion of the Septuagint) 5 instances (Exodus 21:6, 22:8,9 twice, 1Sam.2:25) are rended "judges" in the Greek, and then from the Greek into the Latin Vulgate and older English versions such as the KJV. In modern versions such as the ESV these will usually read "bring the thief before God" not "before the judges" etc. A possibly related unusual reading is Ps. 58:11 Elohim-Shofetim "God-Judges (plural) in all the earth".[15]

Again in Psalm 97:6, "all the gods" (Hebrew kal-elohim) are commanded to worship the Messiah. This is rendered in the Septuagint as "all the angels of God" (Greek pantes aggeloi Theou), and taken from the Greek into Hebrews 1:6.

A related incident concerns Moses, though he is not actually called elohim in Exodus 4:16, "He (Aaron) will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were Elohim to him."

In 1 Samuel 28:13. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she sees "gods (elohim) coming up (plural verb) out of the earth", referring to the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

Just as there are exceptions to the rule that Elohim is singular when referring to the God of Israel, there are exceptions to the rule that Elohim is plural when referring to other deities.[16]

1 Sam 5:7 "...for His hand is severe on us and on Dagon our elohim."
Judges 11:24 "what Chemosh your elohim gives (singular) you to possess?"
1 Kings 18:24 "And you call upon the name of your elohim (i.e. Baal), and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the elohim who answers (singular verb) by fire, he is Elohim.”
[edit] Ambiguous readingsSometimes when elohim occurs as the referent or object (i.e. not subject) of a sentence, and without any accompanying verb or adjective to indicate plurality, it may be grammatically unclear whether gods plural or God singular is intended. An example is Psalm 8:5 where "Yet you have made him a little lower than the elohim" is ambiguous as to whether "lower than the gods" or "lower than God" is intended. The Septuagint read this as "gods" and then corrected the translation to "angels", which reading is taken up by the New Testament in Hebrews 2:9 "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus".

[edit] Other plural-singulars in Biblical HebrewMain article: Pluralis excellentiae
The only plural singular noun in the Hebrew Bible is "Elohim", and it is the only noun that can, in addition to plural, connote singular quintessence, uniqueness, or might.

[edit] Related phrases[edit] Sons of GodMain article: Sons of God
The Hebrew word for sons bene occurs with various nouns such as a collective, such as Psa. xlix, 3, bene adam "sons of men," "sons of Adam"; bene Yisrael "sons of Israel, Israelites.

The Hebrew term bene elohim ("sons of God" or "sons of the gods") in, e.g., Genesis 6:2[17] compares to the use of "sons of gods" (Ugaritic bn il) sons of El in Ugaritic mythology.[18] Karel van der Toorn states that Gods can be referred to collectively as bene elim, bene elyon, or bene elohim.[19]

[edit] Rabbinic JudaismFurther information: Names of God in Judaism
Elohim occupy the seventh rank of ten in the famous medieval Rabbinic scholar Maimonides' Jewish angelic hierarchy. Also Maimonides told that:

I must premise that every Hebrew knows that the term Elohim is a homonym, and denotes God, angels, judges, and the rulers of countries, ...[20]

[edit] Christian Bible translationsHebrew elohim in English translations of the Bible is usually rendered as gods when referring to pagan deities, and as God when referring to the God of Israel, echoing use of θεος theos in the Greek LXX.

In some Sacred name Bibles, like The Scriptures 98 and Restored Name King James Version the word "Elohim" is used in many places in the New Testament where the word theos is found in the Greek text (such as John 1:1 and John 10:36). Though there are no attested early Biblical manuscripts of the New Testament with "Elohim", the editors of such translations appeal to the fact that the Syriac word ܐܠܗܐ Aloha, the source of Hebrew Eloah, is found in the Syriac bible text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

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« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2011, 03:31:51 AM »

El (deity)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
El depicted with two lions on the back of the handle of the Gebel el-Arak Knife[dubious – discuss][1]ʾĒl (written aleph-lamed, i.e. אל, ,  etc.) is the Northwest Semitic word for "deity", cognate to Akkadian ilum.

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god,[2] the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra, Syria).[2]

The word El was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of gods or the Father of all gods, in the ruins of the royal archive of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot.

Also in Northwest Semitic the typical belief and thought for El is that he controls the Moon and the Sun. In the myth, while he controls them they often fight for a place as his favorite. The results, day, night, day, night, are often explained as following. When it is day, the Sun has beaten the Moon. When it is night, the Moon has beaten the sun. When this myth formed it was not known that one part of the planet was in night and one in day. They said that no heavenly body won twice in a row, except on the days of the eclipse.[citation needed][original research?]

Contents [hide]
1 Linguistic forms and meanings
2 Proto-Sinaitic, Phoenician, Aramaic, and Hittite texts
3 Amorites
4 Ugarit
5 Hebrew Bible
6 Christian theology
7 Sanchuniathon
8 Poseidon
9 See also
10 Footnotes
11 References
12 Further reading
13 External links
 
[edit] Linguistic forms and meaningsCognate forms are found throughout the Semitic languages. They include Ugaritic ʾil, pl. ʾlm; Phoenician ʾl pl. ʾlm; Hebrew ʾēl, pl. ʾēlîm; Aramaic ʾl; Akkadian ilu, pl. ilānu.

In Northwest Semitic usage ʾl was both a generic word for any "god" and the special name or title of a particular god who was distinguished from other gods as being "the god", or in the monotheistic sense, God.[3] Ēli is listed at the head of many pantheons. Eli was the father god among the Canaanites.

However, because the word sometimes refers to a god other than the great god Ēli, it is frequently ambiguous as to whether Ēli followed by another name means the great god Ēli with a particular epithet applied or refers to another god entirely. For example, in the Ugaritic texts ʾil mlk is understood to mean "Ēli the King" but ʾil hd as "the god Hadad".

The Semitic root ʾlh (Arabic ʾilāh, Aramaic 'alāh, 'elāh, Hebrew 'elōah) may be ʾlu with a parasitic h. In Ugaritic the plural form meaning "gods" is ʾilhm, equivalent to Hebrew ʾelōhîm "gods". But in Hebrew this word is also regularly used for semantically singular "God" or "god".

The stem ʾl is found prominently in the earliest strata of east Semitic, northwest Semitic, and south Semitic groups. Personal names including the stem ʾl are found with similar patterns both in Amorite and South Arabic which indicates that probably already in Proto-Semitic ʾl was both a generic term for "god" and the common name or title of a single particular "god" or "God".

 
el in Paleo-Hebrew alphabet[edit] Proto-Sinaitic, Phoenician, Aramaic, and Hittite textsA proto-Sinaitic mine inscription from Mount Sinai reads ʼlḏ‘lm understood to be vocalized as ʼil ḏū ‘ôlmi, 'ʼĒl Eternal' or 'God Eternal'.

The Egyptian god Ptah is given the title ḏū gitti 'Lord of Gath' in a prism from Lachish which has on its opposite face the name of Amenhotep II (c. 1435–1420 BCE) The title ḏū gitti is also found in Serābitṭ text 353. Cross (1973, p. 19) points out that Ptah is often called the lord (or one) of eternity and thinks it may be this identification of ʼĒl with Ptah that lead to the epithet ’olam 'eternal' being applied to ʼĒl so early and so consistently. (However in the Ugaritic texts Ptah is seemingly identified instead with the craftsman god Kothar-wa-Khasis.)[4]

Myths of the Fertile Crescent
series
 
Mesopotamian mythology
Ancient Arabian mythology
Ancient Levantine mythology
Pre-Islamic Arabian gods
Abgal
Aglibol
Al-Qaum
al-Lāt, al-'Ilāhat
Astarte
Atargatis (Syrian)
Atarsamain
Beelshamen
Bēl, Baʕl, Bēl-Šamīn
Bes (Egypto-Arabic)
Dhu'l-Halasa
Dusares, Dhu Sharā'
Ēl, Ilāh (NW Semitic)
Hubal
Ištar, Athtar
Malakbel
Manāt
 Manaf
Nabū, Nebo
Nasr
Nergal
Nuha
Orotalt
Ruda
Shams, Samas
Sīn, Nanna-Suen
Suwa'
ʕUzzā
Wadd
Ya'uq
Yaghūth
Yarhibol/Malakbel
demons
 
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A Phoenician inscribed amulet of the 7th century BCE from Arslan Tash may refer to ʼĒl. Rosenthal (1969, p. 658) translated the text:

An eternal bond has been established for us. Ashshur has established (it) for us, and all the divine beings and the majority of the group of all the holy ones, through the bond of heaven and earth for ever, ...

However the text is translated by Cross (1973, p. 17):

The Eternal One (‘Olam) has made a covenant oath with us,
Asherah has made (a pact) with us.
And all the sons of El,
And the great council of all the Holy Ones.
With oaths of Heaven and Ancient Earth.

In some inscriptions the name ’Ēl qōne ’arṣ meaning "ʼĒl creator of Earth" appears, even including a late inscription at Leptis Magna in Tripolitania dating to 2nd century (KAI. 129). In Hittite texts the expression becomes the single name Ilkunirsa, this Ilkunirsa appearing as the husband of Asherdu (Asherah) and father of 77 or 88 sons.[5]

In a Hurrian hymn to ʼĒl (published in Ugaritica V, text RS 24.278) he is called ’il brt and ’il dn which Cross (p. 39) takes as 'ʼĒl of the covenant' and 'ʼĒl the judge' respectively.

See Ba‘al Hammon for the possibility that ʼĒli was identical with Ba‘al Hammon who was worshipped as the supreme god in Carthage.

[edit] AmoritesAmorite inscriptions from Zinčirli refer to numerous gods, sometimes by name, sometimes by title, especially by such titles as ilabrat 'god of the people'(?), il abīka 'god of your father', il abīni 'god of our father' and so forth. Various family gods are recorded, divine names listed as belong to a particular family or clan, sometimes by title and sometimes by name, including the name Il 'god'. In Amorite personal names the most common divine elements are Il ('God'), Hadad/Adad, and Dagan. It is likely that Il is also very often the god called in Akkadian texts Amurru or Il Amurru.

[edit] UgaritFor the Canaanites, Eli or Il was the supreme god, the father of mankind and all creatures.[6] He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot, each share similar attributes to the GrecoRoman gods: Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades respectively.

Three pantheon lists found at Ugarit begin with the four gods ’il-’ib (which according to Cross [1973; p. 14] is the name of a generic kind of deity, perhaps the divine ancestor of the people), Ēl, Dagnu (that is Dagon), and Ba’l Ṣapān (that is the god Haddu or Hadad). Though Ugarit had a large temple dedicated to Dagon and another to Hadad, there was no temple dedicated to Ēl.

Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull god"). He is bātnyu binwāti ("Creator of creatures"), ’abū banī ’ili ("father of the gods"), and ‘abū ‘adami ("father of man"). He is qāniyunu ‘ôlam ("creator eternal"), the epithet ‘ôlam appearing in Hebrew form in the Hebrew name of God ’ēl ‘ôlam "God Eternal" in Genesis 21.33. He is ḥātikuka ("your patriarch"). Ēl is the grey-bearded ancient one, full of wisdom, malku ("king"), ’abū šamīma ("father of years"), ’ēl gibbōr ("Ēl the warrior"). He is also named lṭpn of unknown meaning, variously rendered as Latpan, Latipan, or Lutpani ("shroud-face" by Strong's Hebrew Concordance).

The mysterious Ugaritic text Shachar and Shalim tells how (perhaps near the beginning of all things) Ēl came to shores of the sea and saw two women who bobbed up and down. Ēl was sexually aroused and took the two with him, killed a bird by throwing a staff at it, and roasted it over a fire. He asked the women to tell him when the bird was fully cooked, and to then address him either as husband or as father, for he would thenceforward behave to them as they call him. They saluted him as husband. He then lies with them, and they gave birth to Shachar ("Dawn") and Shalim ("Dusk"). Again Ēl lies with his wives and the wives give birth to "the gracious gods", "cleavers of the sea", "children of the sea". The names of these wives are not explicitly provided, but some confusing rubrics at the beginning of the account mention the goddess Athirat who is otherwise Ēl's chief wife and the goddess Rahmay ("Merciful"), otherwise unknown.

In the Ugaritic Ba‘al cycle Ēl is introduced dwelling on (or in) Mount Lel (Lel possibly meaning 'Night') at the fountains of the two rivers at the spring of the two deeps. He dwells in a tent according to some interpretations of the text which may explain why he had no temple in Ugarit. As to the rivers and the spring of the two deeps, these might refer to real streams, or to the mythological sources of the salt water ocean and the fresh water sources under the earth, or to the waters above the heavens and the waters beneath the earth.

In the episode of the "Palace of Ba‘al", the god Ba‘al/Hadad invites the "70 sons of Athirat" to a feast in his new palace. Presumably these sons have been fathered on Athirat by Ēl in following passages they seem be the gods (’ilm) in general or at least a large portion of them. The only sons of Ēl named individually in the Ugaritic texts are Yamm ("Sea"), Mot ("Death"), and Ashtar, who may be the chief and leader of most of the sons of Ēl. Ba‘al/Hadad is a few times called Ēl's son rather than the son of Dagan as he is normally called, possibly because Ēl is in the position of a clan-father to all the gods.

The fragmentary text RS 24.258 describes a banquet to which Ēl invites the other gods and then disgraces himself by becoming outrageously drunk and passing out after confronting an otherwise unknown Hubbay, "he with the horns and tail". The text ends with an incantation for the cure of some disease, possibly hangover.[citation needed]

[edit] Hebrew Bible This article may contain original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding references. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed. More details may be available on the talk page. (October 2010)

The Hebrew form (אל) appears in Latin letters in Standard Hebrew transcription as El and in Tiberian Hebrew transcription as ʾĒl.

El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch,[7] or Yahweh.

In the Tanakh, ’elōhîm is the normal word for a god or the great god (or gods, given that the 'im' suffix makes a word plural in Hebrew). But the form ’ēl also appears, mostly in poetic passages and in the patriarchal narratives attributed to the P source. It occurs 217 times in the Masoretic text: 73 times in the Psalms and 55 times in the Book of Job, and otherwise mostly in poetic passages or passages written in elevated prose. It occasionally appears with the definite article as hā’Ēl 'the God' (for example in 2 Samuel 22.31,33–48).

There are also places where ’ēl specifically refers to a foreign god as in Psalms 44.20;81.9 (Hebrew 44.21;81.10), in Deuteronomy 32.12 and in Malachi 2.11.

The theological position of the Tanakh is that the names Ēl and ’Ĕlōhîm, when used in the singular to mean the supreme and active 'God', refer to the same being as does the name, Yahweh. All three refer to the one supreme god who is the god of Israel, beside whom other gods are supposed to be either non-existent or insignificant. Whether this was a longstanding belief or a relatively new one has long been the subject of inconclusive scholarly debate about the prehistory of the sources of the Tanakh and about the prehistory of Israelite religion. In the P strand, YHVH says in Exodus 6.2–3:

I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name, Yahweh.

This suggests the identity of Yahweh with either Ēl, in his aspect of Shaddāi, or with a god called Shaddāi.[citation needed] Also suggested is that the name Yahweh is a more recent revelation.[citation needed] Before the El's revelation with the name of Yahweh, It is said in Gen 14:18-20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon.[8] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl. In some places, especially in Psalm 29, Yahweh is clearly envisioned as a storm god, something not true of Ēl so far as we know (though true of his son, Ba'al/Hadad). (Noted Parallel: El is derived from Sumerian Enlil, God of Wind.[9]) It is Yahweh who fights Leviathan in Isaiah 27.1; Psalm 74.14; Job 3.8 & 40.25/41.1, a deed attributed both to Ba’al/Hadad and ‘Anat in the Ugaritic texts, but not to Ēl. Such mythological motifs are variously seen as late survivals from a period when Yahweh held a place in theology comparable to that of Hadad at Ugarit; or as late henotheistic/monotheistic applications to Yahweh of deeds more commonly attributed to Hadad; or simply as examples of eclectic application of the same motifs and imagery to various different gods. Similarly, it is argued inconclusively whether Ēl Shaddāi, Ēl ‘Ôlām, Ēl ‘Elyôn, and so forth, were originally understood as separate divinities. Albrecht Alt presented his theories on the original differences of such gods in Der Gott der Väter in 1929. But others have argued that from patriarchal times these different names were indeed generally understood to refer to the same single great god, Ēl. This is the position of Frank Moore Cross (1973). What is certain is that the form ’ēl does appear in Israelite names from every period including the name Yiśrā’ēl ('Israel'), meaning 'ēl strives' or 'struggled with él'.

According to The Oxford Companion To World Mythology (David Leeming, Oxford University Press, 2005, page 118), "It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the 'God of Abraham'...If El was the high god of Abraham - Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh - Asherah was his wife, and there are archeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the seventh century B.C.E. (See 2 Kings 23:15)"

The apparent plural form ’Ēlîm or ’Ēlim 'gods' occurs only four times in the Tanakh. Psalm 29, understood as an enthronement psalm, begins:

A Psalm of David.
Ascribe to Yahweh, sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm),
Ascribe to Yahweh, glory and strength

Psalm 89:6 (verse 7 in Hebrew) has:

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm).

Traditionally bênê ’ēlîm has been interpreted as 'sons of the mighty', 'mighty ones', for, indeed ’ēl can mean 'mighty', though such use may be metaphorical (compare the English expression God-awful). It is possible also that the expression ’ēlîm in both places descends from an archaic stock phrase in which ’lm was a singular form with the m-enclitic and therefore to be translated as 'sons of Ēl'. The m-enclitic appears elsewhere in the Tanakh and in other Semitic languages. Its meaning is unknown, possibly simply emphasis. It appears in similar contexts in Ugaritic texts where the expression bn ’il alternates with bn ’ilm, but both must mean 'sons of Ēl'. That phrase with m-enclictic also appears in Phoenician inscriptions as late as the 5th century BCE.

One of the other two occurrences in the Tanakh is in the "Song of Moses", Exodus 15.11a:

Who is like you among the gods (’ēlim), Yahweh?

The final occurrence is in Daniel 11.36:

And the king will do according to his pleasure; and he will exalt himself and magnify himself over every god (’ēl), and against the God of gods (’ēl ’ēlîm) he will speak outrageous things, and will prosper until the indignation is accomplished: for that which is decided will be done.

There are a few cases in the Tanakh where some think ’ēl referring to the great god Ēl is not equated with Yahweh. One is in Ezekiel 28.2, in the taunt against a man who claims to be divine, in this instance, the leader of Tyre:

Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: "Thus says the Lord Yahweh: 'Because your heart is proud and you have said: "I am ’ēl (God), in the seat of ’elōhîm (God or gods), I am enthroned in the middle of the seas." Yet you are man and not ’ēl even though you have made your heart like the heart of ’elōhîm ('God' or 'gods').'"

Here ’ēl might refer to a generic god, or to a highest god, Ēl. When viewed as applying to the King of Tyre specifically, the king was probably not thinking of Yahweh. When viewed a general taunt against anyone making divine claims, it may or may not refer to Yahweh depending on the context.

In Judges 9.46 we find ’Ēl Bêrît 'God of the Covenant', seemingly the same as the Ba‘al Bêrît 'Lord of the Covenant' whose worship has been condemned a few verses earlier. See Baal for a discussion of this passage.

Psalm 82.1 says:

’elōhîm ('God') stands in the council of ’ēl
he judges among the gods (elohim).

This could mean that God, that is Yahweh, judges along with many other gods as one of the council of the high god Ēl. However it can also mean that God, that is Yahweh, stands in the divine council (generally known as the Council of Ēl), as Ēl judging among the other members of the Council. The following verses in which God condemns those whom he says were previously named gods (elohim) and sons of the Most High suggest God is here indeed Ēl judging the lesser gods.

An archaic phrase appears in Isaiah 14.13, kôkkêbê ’ēl 'stars of God', referring to the circumpolar stars that never set, possibly especially to the seven stars of Ursa Major. The phrase also occurs in the Pyrgi Inscription as hkkbm ’l (preceded by the definite article h and followed by the m-enclitic). Two other apparent fossilized expressions are arzê-’ēl 'cedars of God' (generally translated something like 'mighty cedars', 'goodly cedars') in Psalm 80.10 (in Hebrew verse 11) and kêharrê-’ēl 'mountains of God' (generally translated something like 'great mountains', 'mighty mountains') in Psalm 36.7 (in Hebrew verse 6).

For the reference in some texts of Deuteronomy 32.8 to 70 sons of God corresponding to the 70 sons of Ēl in the Ugaritic texts see ’Elyôn.

[edit] Christian theology This section may stray from the topic of the article. Please help improve this section or discuss this issue on the talk page.

Christians accept the Hebrew Tanakh as part of scripture, generally translating El (אֱל) as "god" or "God." Christians take the Tanakh's use of the plural "Elohim" (אֱלהִים) for God as confirming the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

According to church fathers of early Christianity, El was the first Hebrew name of God. Dante Alighieri in his De vulgari eloquentia suggests that the name was the first sound emitted by Adam: While the first utterance of humans after birth is a cry of pain, Dante assumed that Adam could only have made an exclamation of joy, which at the same time was addressing his Creator. In the Divina commedia, however, Dante contradicts this by saying that God was called I in the language of Adam, and only named El in later Hebrew, but before the confusion of tongues (Paradiso, 26.134).

Unlike Jews and mainstream Christians, Latter-day Saints identify Elohim as a distinct deity from Yahweh, whom they identify with Jesus Christ. Elohim is viewed as God the Father, while Yahweh, or Jesus Christ, is identified as God's begotten Son.

[edit] SanchuniathonMain article: Philo of Byblos
Philo of Byblos (c. 64-141 CE) was a Greek writer whose an account Sanchuniathon survives in quotation by Eusebius and may contain the major surviving traces of Phoenician mythology. Ēl (rendered Elus or called by his standard Greek counterpart Cronus) is not the creator god or first god. Ēl is rather the son of Sky and Earth. Sky and Earth are themselves children of ‘Elyôn 'Most High'. Ēl is brother to the god Bethel, to Dagon, and to an unknown god equated with the Greek Atlas, and to the goddesses Aphrodite/’Ashtart, Rhea (presumably Asherah), and Dione (equated with Ba’alat Gebal). Ēl is father of Persephone who dies (presumably an otherwise unknown Semitic goddess of the dead) and of Athene (presumably the goddess ‘Anat).

Sky and Earth have separated from one another in hostility, but Sky insists on continuing to force himself on Earth and attempts to destroy the children born of such unions until at last Ēl, son of Sky and Earth, with the advice of the god Thoth and Ēl's daughter Athene attacks his father Sky with a sickle and spear of iron and drives him off for ever. So he and his allies the Eloim gain Sky's kingdom. In a later passage it is explained that Ēl castrated Sky. But one of Sky's concubines who was given to Ēl's brother Dagon was already pregnant by Sky and the son who is born of this union, called by Sanchuniathon Demarûs or Zeus, but once called by him Adodus, is obviously Hadad, the Ba‘al of the Ugaritic texts who now becomes an ally of his grandfather Sky and begins to make war on Ēl.

Ēl has three wives, his sisters or half-sisters Aphrodite/Astarte (‘Ashtart), Rhea (presumably Asherah), and Dione (identified by Sanchuniathon with Ba‘alat Gebal the tutelary goddess of Byblos, a city which Sanchuniathon says that Ēl founded).

Unfortunately Eusebius of Caesarea, through whom Sanchuniathon is preserved, is not interested in setting the work forth completely or in order. But we are told that Ēl slew his own son Sadidus (a name that some commentators think might be a corruption of Shaddai, one of the epithets of the Biblical Ēl) and that Ēl also beheaded one of his daughters. Later, perhaps referring to this same death of Sadidus we are told:

But on the occurrence of a pestilence and mortality Cronus offers his only begotten son as a whole burnt-offering to his father Sky and circumcises himself, compelling his allies also to do the same.

A fuller account of the sacrifice appears later:

It was a custom of the ancients in great crises of danger for the rulers of a city or nation, in order to avert the common ruin, to give up the most beloved of their children for sacrifice as a ransom to the avenging daemons; and those who were thus given up were sacrificed with mystic rites. Cronus then, whom the Phoenicians call Elus, who was king of the country and subsequently, after his decease, was deified as the star Saturn, had by a nymph of the country named Anobret an only begotten son, whom they on this account called Iedud, the only begotten being still so called among the Phoenicians; and when very great dangers from war had beset the country, he arrayed his son in royal apparel, and prepared an altar, and sacrificed him.

The account also relates that Thoth:

... also devised for Cronus as insignia of royalty four eyes in front and behind ... but two of them quietly closed, and upon his shoulders four wings, two as spread for flying, and two as folded. And the symbol meant that Cronus could see when asleep, and sleep while waking: and similarly in the case of the wings, that he flew while at rest, and was at rest when flying. But to each of the other gods he gave two wings upon the shoulders, as meaning that they accompanied Cronus in his flight. And to Cronus himself again he gave two wings upon his head, one representing the all-ruling mind, and one sensation.

This is the form under which Ēl/Cronus appears on coins from Byblos from the reign of Antiochus IV (175–164 BCE) four spread wings and two folded wings, leaning on a staff. Such images continued to appear on coins until after the time of Augustus.

[edit] PoseidonMain article: Poseidon
A bilingual inscription from Palmyra (KAI. 11, p. 43; KAI 129) dated to the first century equates Ēl-Creator-of-the-Earth with the Greek god Poseidon. Going back to the eighth century BCE the bilingual inscription (KAI 26) at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains equates Ēl-Creator-of-the-Earth to Luwian hieroglyphs read as da-a-ś ,[10] this being the Luwian form of the name of the Babylonian water god Ea, lord of the abyss of water under the earth. (This inscription lists Ēl in second place in the local pantheon, following Ba`al Shamîm and preceding the Eternal Sun.)

Poseidon is known to have been worshipped in Beirut, his image appearing on coins from that city. Poseidon of Beirut was also worshipped at Delos where there was an association of merchants, shipmasters, and warehousemen called the Poseidoniastae of Berytus founded in 110 or 109 BCE. Three of the four chapels at its headquarters on the hill northwest of the Sacred Lake were dedicated to Poseidon, the Tyche of the city equated with Astarte (that is ‘Ashtart), and to Eshmun.

Also at Delos that association of Tyrians, though mostly devoted to Heracles-Melqart, elected a member to bear a crown every year when sacrifices to Poseidon took place. A banker named Philostratus donated two altars, one to Palaistine Aphrodite Urania (‘Ashtart) and one to Poseidon "of Ascalon".

Though Sanchuniathon distinguishes Poseidon from his Elus/Cronus, this might be a splitting off of a particular aspect of Ēl in a euhemeristic account. Identification of an aspect of Ēl with Poseidon rather than with Cronus might have been felt to better fit with Hellenistic religious practice, if indeed this Phoenician Poseidon really is Ēl who dwells at the source of the two deeps in Ugaritic texts. More information is needed to be certain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(God)
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« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2011, 11:17:40 AM »

Quote
[edit] PoseidonMain article: Poseidon
A bilingual inscription from Palmyra (KAI. 11, p. 43; KAI 129) dated to the first century equates Ēl-Creator-of-the-Earth with the Greek god Poseidon. Going back to the eighth century BCE the bilingual inscription (KAI 26) at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains equates Ēl-Creator-of-the-Earth to Luwian hieroglyphs read as da-a-ś ,[10] this being the Luwian form of the name of the Babylonian water god Ea, lord of the abyss of water under the earth. (This inscription lists Ēl in second place in the local pantheon, following Ba`al Shamîm and preceding the Eternal Sun.)
 


Yes, El is indeed the equivalent of ‘Il’ which is indeed the equivalent of Poseidon in the Greek mythos. In the Vedic texts the name is cognate with ‘Il Varuna,’ the Hindu god of the sea. In the Vedic texts, Il Varuna is among the oldest of gods, even the elder of Indra.

Quote
The Egyptian god Ptah is given the title ḏū gitti 'Lord of Gath' in a prism from Lachish which has on its opposite face the name of Amenhotep II (c. 1435–1420 BCE) The title ḏū gitti is also found in Serābitṭ text 353. Cross (1973, p. 19) points out that Ptah is often called the lord (or one) of eternity and thinks it may be this identification of ʼĒl with Ptah that lead to the epithet ’olam 'eternal' being applied to ʼĒl so early and so consistently. (However in the Ugaritic texts Ptah is seemingly identified instead with the craftsman god Kothar-wa-Khasis.)[4]
 

Yes, I quite agree. El, Il, Il Varuna appear to be names that are equivalent to the god, Ptah Tannin, of the Egyptians. It may be expedient to note however, that if you look up the word “dragon” which is the biblical equivalent of Satan, the Hebrew dictionary section of the Strong’s Concordance tells us that the Hebrew word for dragon is “Tannin,” a name which obviously points to the Egyptian god, Ptah Tannin.

The Biblical association of Ptah Tannin with the biblical dragon or Satan, may be found in the fact that all of these various god names have an association with the primordial sun god of antiquity, the god who was known as Vishnu in the Vedic religions. And, curiously enough, we find that “Satan” or spelling variants of this name are common name associations for Vedic deities associated with the worship of the sun god. For instance, under the Hindu beliefs, names beginning with Satan (or the variant Satin) account for two thirds of the Hindu Trinity.

SATANAND = LORD VISHNU

SATINATH & SATINDRA = LORD SHIVA

http://www.indianhindunames.com/indian-hindu-boy-name-s.htm

As far as I can determine, this same deity known as El, Il,  Il Varuna and Ptah Tannin is also equivalent to Ea or Ea Nudimmud in the Babylonian texts and the god known as Enki in the Sumerian histories. Like Poseidon, both are considered water gods. So, we are not only dealing with the fact that the El-Il deity was evidently known by a different name in each country where he was worshipped, said deity was evidently known by multiple names even in a single country. For instance, El may have also been known by the name ‘Dagon’, who is depicted as a god that is a man with the lower extremities of a fish, which stresses his role as a god of the sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

Now, compare the picture of Dagon with that of Matsya in the Hindu religion. Both gods are depicted in exactly the same way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsya

Both Dagon and Matsya, like Il Varuna and Poseidon, represent power over the sea and maritime trade, which was of course, the primary source of income for the Phoenicians. In the Vedic texts, Il Varuna is considered both a solar god and an ocean god. In the Vedic religion, Matsya, the “fish god” is considered the very first avatar or incarnation of Vishnu, the Hindu sun god, who is also known as “the god with a thousand names."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu

Curiously, the Hebrews seem to have borrowed most of their god-names from the Phoenicians, and the Phoenicians in turn, appear to have adapted their god names from the Vedic civilization of ancient India.

One of the Hebrew names for god, ‘Adonai’ is borrowed directly from the Phoenician god system. Adon was simply another version of sun god worship. If you are interested, here is an excellent site discussing the Phoenician god system.

http://phoenicia.org/pagan.html

It's all very curious, isn't it?



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« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2011, 12:07:21 PM »

So later cultures took the variants of older names and added new aspects to old stories...
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« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2011, 12:33:20 PM »

So later cultures took the variants of older names and added new aspects to old stories...

not really all the pagan babylonian religions worshiped multiple gods, muslims (i believe) and christians worship a single all powerful creator. fundamental difference.
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« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2011, 12:49:22 PM »

Judaism is derived from ancient race myths.
Christianity is a plagiarism of the above.
Islam is a plagiarism of the two above.
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« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2011, 01:22:24 PM »



Yes, El is indeed the equivalent of ‘Il’ which is indeed the equivalent of Poseidon in the Greek mythos. In the Vedic texts the name is cognate with ‘Il Varuna,’ the Hindu god of the sea. In the Vedic texts, Il Varuna is among the oldest of gods, even the elder of Indra.

Yes, I quite agree. El, Il, Il Varuna appear to be names that are equivalent to the god, Ptah Tannin, of the Egyptians. It may be expedient to note however, that if you look up the word “dragon” which is the biblical equivalent of Satan, the Hebrew dictionary section of the Strong’s Concordance tells us that the Hebrew word for dragon is “Tannin,” a name which obviously points to the Egyptian god, Ptah Tannin.

The Biblical association of Ptah Tannin with the biblical dragon or Satan, may be found in the fact that all of these various god names have an association with the primordial sun god of antiquity, the god who was known as Vishnu in the Vedic religions. And, curiously enough, we find that “Satan” or spelling variants of this name are common name associations for Vedic deities associated with the worship of the sun god. For instance, under the Hindu beliefs, names beginning with Satan (or the variant Satin) account for two thirds of the Hindu Trinity.

SATANAND = LORD VISHNU

SATINATH & SATINDRA = LORD SHIVA

http://www.indianhindunames.com/indian-hindu-boy-name-s.htm

As far as I can determine, this same deity known as El, Il,  Il Varuna and Ptah Tannin is also equivalent to Ea or Ea Nudimmud in the Babylonian texts and the god known as Enki in the Sumerian histories. Like Poseidon, both are considered water gods. So, we are not only dealing with the fact that the El-Il deity was evidently known by a different name in each country where he was worshipped, said deity was evidently known by multiple names even in a single country. For instance, El may have also been known by the name ‘Dagon’, who is depicted as a god that is a man with the lower extremities of a fish, which stresses his role as a god of the sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

Now, compare the picture of Dagon with that of Matsya in the Hindu religion. Both gods are depicted in exactly the same way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsya

Both Dagon and Matsya, like Il Varuna and Poseidon, represent power over the sea and maritime trade, which was of course, the primary source of income for the Phoenicians. In the Vedic texts, Il Varuna is considered both a solar god and an ocean god. In the Vedic religion, Matsya, the “fish god” is considered the very first avatar or incarnation of Vishnu, the Hindu sun god, who is also known as “the god with a thousand names."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu

Curiously, the Hebrews seem to have borrowed most of their god-names from the Phoenicians, and the Phoenicians in turn, appear to have adapted their god names from the Vedic civilization of ancient India.

One of the Hebrew names for god, ‘Adonai’ is borrowed directly from the Phoenician god system. Adon was simply another version of sun god worship. If you are interested, here is an excellent site discussing the Phoenician god system.

http://phoenicia.org/pagan.html

It's all very curious, isn't it?




OK, as long as we can do away with this "Allah is the mon god, Sin/Nanna" nonsense.  The Muslims have never actually denied that "Allah" was originally used to denote a pagan god before Muhammad, anyway.  Muslims acknowledge in their histories that the people of the Arabian peninsula were almost all pagan except for a few hanifs (discoverers of monotheism) before Muhammad's day.  There were Jews and Syriac Christians and others among them, but the Bedouin tribes were polytheist.  This Muslims do not deny.  Far from it.  They celebrate Muhammad's bringing them monotheism from what I can see.

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« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2011, 01:42:45 PM »

not really all the pagan babylonian religions worshiped multiple gods, muslims (i believe) and christians worship a single all powerful creator. fundamental difference.

There is so much obfuscation around the real origins of religious mythology , no one can say for certain.
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2011, 01:53:20 PM »

Quote
OK, as long as we can do away with this "Allah is the mon god, Sin/Nanna" nonsense.  The Muslims have never actually denied that "Allah" was oroginally used to denote a pagan god before Muhammad, anyway.  Muslims acknowledge in their histories that the people of the Arabian peninsula were almost all paganexcept for a few hanifs (discoverers of monotheism) before Muhammad's day.

I honestly do not see how you can do away with Nannar Sin, because he was most definately the moon god worshipped in both Ur and Haran and Sin is definately the name of the god worshipped by Abraham's ancestors.

Sin was no minor deity. The entire Sinai Penninsula was named after him, most probably at the same time that Naram Sin, the grandson of Sargon the Great, led a campaign against Egypt. Some of the most violent wars connected to the Assyrian pantheon of gods were led by god-kings devoted to the worship of Nannar Sin.

In my studies, the evidence indicates that Nannar Sin was probably a title, rather than a name. Nannar meant "bright and shining" (as in the Moon) while its shortened form, 'Nanna' would refer to the patriarch or elder of the Sumerian people. 'Sin' is most probably a shortened form of "Sind" which was a region in southwest India. As Sin was defined as a "moon god," this title more or less identifies him as an elder patriarch of the lunar dynasty cults originating in the Sind region of India.

In at least one hymn dedicated to Nannar Sin, he is called "Anshar" who is called the "grandfather of the gods" in the Babylonian Creation text; The Enuma Elish.

How can you do away with Sin? If the Muslim's claim that they worship the god of Abraham, and Abraham came from Ur, then Sin was the god originally worshipped by Abraham and his ancestral race.

Read the Sumerian texts. It's no secret who the god of Ur was.
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2011, 02:13:38 PM »

I honestly do not see how you can do away with Nannar Sin, because he was most definately the moon god worshipped in both Ur and Haran and Sin is definately the name of the god worshipped by Abraham's ancestors.

Sin was no minor deity. The entire Sinai Penninsula was named after him, most probably at the same time that Naram Sin, the grandson of Sargon the Great, led a campaign against Egypt. Some of the most violent wars connected to the Assyrian pantheon of gods were led by god-kings devoted to the worship of Nannar Sin.

In my studies, the evidence indicates that Nannar Sin was probably a title, rather than a name. Nannar meant "bright and shining" (as in the Moon) while its shortened form, 'Nanna' would refer to the patriarch or elder of the Sumerian people. 'Sin' is most probably a shortened form of "Sind" which was a region in southwest India. As Sin was defined as a "moon god," this title more or less identifies him as an elder patriarch of the lunar dynasty cults originating in the Sind region of India.

In at least one hymn dedicated to Nannar Sin, he is called "Anshar" who is called the "grandfather of the gods" in the Babylonian Creation text; The Enuma Elish.

How can you do away with Sin? If the Muslim's claim that they worship the god of Abraham, and Abraham came from Ur, then Sin was the god originally worshipped by Abraham and his ancestral race.

Read the Sumerian texts. It's no secret who the god of Ur was.

All right, I'm starting to get where you are coming from.  I'll have to do more research into Ur, Naanar Sin, Abraham, Terah (his father) and possible conncetions to Allah, but I find the Sin/Sind linguistic connection very weak.

At least it has been an intelligent conversation.  It's been a while since I had one.  You're all right.

The fundies love to throw around the "Allah is the moon god" without looking at the pagan origins of Judaism and Christianity, so I was a little wary of it.

I can see you are not going down that road, and I commend you for it.

I guess you are a real pilgrim.
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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2011, 02:24:24 PM »

Here ya' go. Does this sound like a god everybody should simply ignore?

Hymn to the Moon-God

O Lord, hero of the gods, who in heaven and earth is
exalted in his uniqueness,
Father Nanna, lord Anshar, hero of the gods,
Father Nanna.  Great lord Anu, hero of the gods,
Father Nanna lord Sin, hero of the gods,
Father Nanna, lord of Egishshirgal, hero of the gods,
Father Nanna, lord of the shining crown, hero of the
   gods,
Father Nanna, who is grandly perfected in kingship,
   Hero of the gods,
Father Nanna, who solemnly advances in garments of
   Princliness, hero of the gods,
Ferocious bull, whose horn is thick, whose legs are
   Perfected, who is bearded in lapis, and filled with
   Luxury and abundance,
Offspring which is self-created, fullgrown in form,
   Pleasant to the sight, whose exuberance is un-
   Restrained.
Womb that gives birth to everything which dwells in
   A holy habitation with living creatures,
Begetter, merciful in his disposing, who holds in his
   Hand the life of the whole land,
O Lord, thy divinity fills the wide sea with awe, as well
             As the distant heavens.

(Ist Stanza only, Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, with Supplement, James Pritchard, Princeton University Press, 1969, p 385)

I hope you appreciate it too, because dude, you have no idea how much I hate typing up Sumerian Poetry. Tongue
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2011, 02:39:38 PM »

"Great Lod Anu"  very interesting.

Thanks for all your work.  Hope your fingers are OK.

But, hey, what do you have against Sumerian poetry?  I find it kind of interesting myself.

Appreciated.
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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2011, 02:45:47 PM »

WAS or IS Allah, the God of the Muslims (and of all the Arab polytheists of the pre-Islamic era, or Arab deists of yore and today, including Christian Arabs), A MOONGOD in any way, shape or form?

http://www.allah-moon-god.com/

A brief synopsis of the counter-assault against fallacies circulated by wily foes and duped regurgitators of black propaganda about the identity of the Muslim supreme deity:

- If Allah is really a moon god, you would think that there would be much eulogical and celebratory banter about the supposed divinity of the moon in the Quran or the Sunnah or even the bulk of theological writings of recognized Muslim scholars since the early days of Islam till very recently, i.e. until the archaeological discoveries supposedly made by some non-believer in Islamic teachings and then interpreted to suit their own theories which they then force upon a millenium-old philosophical tradition.. What does the main textbook of the religion has to say about the moon? Is there any allusion about its divinity? Nada. "They ask you about the new moons. Say: These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage." [Noble Quran 2:189]

---

(from the above-mentioned site:)

So, why does Islam follow a lunar calendar?

Answer:

In both the Bible and the Quran religious festivals are regulated by the lunar calendar. Jews and Muslims have kept to these regulations which they believe to be from God. Why does Christianity follow a solar calendar?

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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2011, 02:49:28 PM »

Why does Christianity follow a solar calendar?


[/quote

YES.
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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2011, 02:58:35 PM »

Oh, I get it. Christians worship a SUN-GOD, maybe we can make that instant 'wonder wheel' connection from just the fact that they follow a solar calendar..
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2011, 03:24:22 PM »

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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2011, 03:47:55 PM »

Quote
…but I find the Sin/Sind linguistic connection very weak.

You know, five years ago I would have completely agreed with your assessment, but then I expanded my studies of Near and Middle Eastern texts and histories to include the Vedic histories, and immediately underwent an entire paradigm shift in what I thought I knew. I quickly found out how wrong I’d been.

Do you see the fourth line in the above poem? It reads: “Father Nanna, Great lord Anu, hero of the gods…”

Now that’s the key! Right there! THAT’S THE MYSTERY. The name Anu…

Now, if you read Sumerian, Babylonian and even Egyptian history, Anu (and variations of his name) represented some great god in heaven. All the gods call themselves “the sons of Anu”, particularly the Babylonian and Sumerian gods, and even the gods typically associated with the Elohim pantheons are identified with “the sons of Anu” or the “Anunnaki” in various texts. So, you’d think Anu was worshipped far and wide, right?

Not so, my friend! Anu, as it turns out, was one of the “five sons of Yayati” (it’s smack dab out of the Rig Veda, so we’ve got to include India) and these five sons of Yayati are the patriarchs of the “five peoples of man” in the Vedic texts. Ultimately Anu represents this huge tribe in Northern India, in the region we know today as the Punjab, which is a land of fertile, rolling foothills at the base of the Himalayan mountain range.

Anyway, the tribe of Anu and the tribe of Druhyus, and a bunch of other guys whose names I cannot pronounce form a coalition of ten kings, and they go to war with a guy named king Sudas in the famous “Battle of the Ten Kings” which is the major war detailed in the Rig Veda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings

According to the Vedic scholar, David Frawley, author of Gods, Sages and Kings: Vedic Secrets of Ancient Civilizations (Passage Press, 1991) the Tribe of Anu was called “the people of the harmful speech”. Some scholars suggest they spoke a language other than Sanskrit (which is true of the Sumerian civilization which did not speak an Indo-European language) and other scholars suggest the tribe of Anu were simply liars and a people whose word could not be trusted.

In any event, the Tribe of Anu and the coalition of ten kings lost the war with king Sudas. The Rig Veda reports:

“The king defeated the twenty-one famous peoples of both Vaikarnayas…
…Of the Anus and Druhyus sixty thousand, six thousand and sixty six warriors were put to sleep. (RV VII.18, 11, 14)

Frawley reports that according to the Rig, the remaining people still living from the tribes of Druhyus and Anu were “partially driven out of India.” And he suggests that it was these people who ultimately settled first in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran, and they are probably the people associated with the Indus Valley civilization; a group that like the later Sumerians, definitely did not speak the Sanskrit language of India proper.

We know from several Near and Middle Eastern texts, including the famous Babylonian Creation Epic (the Enuma Elish) as well as a collection of Hurrian Texts known as “The Kumarbi Cycle” that Anu, or probably more realistically, the Tribe of Anu, began an attack against the indigenous people of Sumer,(at the ancient site of Eridu), either killing them off or enslaving them, and then set themselves up as “the gods” of the Near and Middle East.

So when you see that forth line in the above poem that describes Nannar Sin as the god Anu, understand there is a whole, huge bunch of history that goes along with that.

I feel justified in suggesting that Nannar Sin originally came from the Sind region, because the Sind region was where the famous Sindhu river flowed, which is better known to us today as the Indus river. And “Sindhu,” by the way, becomes translated “Hindu” in the Sanskrit language.

Thus I make no apologies for suggesting that Nannar Sin represents the lunar dynasty cult of the Sind region, because ultimately, we are probably dealing with a group of people who entered Sumer from the Indus Valley (Sind) civilization.
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