Any Muslims out there? I've got questions.

[citizenx]

If there are any members or readers out there who are practicioners of Islam, I have some serious questions for you?  (non-confrontational/non-critical)

I know we used to have at least one active Muslim member.

As I stated in the title, Christian fundies or zealots need not apply.  My real goal is to make this a legitimate locus of cross-cultural understanding, and not a place to go to proselytize or save someone's soul -- from any religious perspective.

So, here we go.


                                                         Signed,
                                                         A Non-Crusader

[tinfoiltruth]

cool good Idea

[citizenx]

Thx

I wonder if Immortal Truth is still around somewhere.

Don't know if we have or had any other Muslim members, but maybe some Muslims are readers and can sign up or post as guests somehow.

[DAVIDE MTL]

My first question would be is it true muslims believe that right before Christ died on the cross that God replaced him with an imposture

[citizenx]

Good question.

Here is what Wikipedia says:

AscensionMain article: Islamic view of Jesus' death
 
Persian miniature of Jesus (Isa) of Sermon on the MountIslamic texts categorically deny the idea of crucifixion or death attributed to Jesus by the Bible.[5][18] The Qur'an states that people (i.e., the Jews and Romans) sought to kill Jesus, but they did not crucify nor kill him, although "this was made to appear to them." Traditionalists believe that Jesus was not crucified but instead, he was raised up by God unto the heavens. This "raising" is understood to mean through bodily ascension.

“ “That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto the himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.”[Qur'an 4:157–158] ”

According to some Muslim traditions, Jesus may have been replaced by someone who resembled him, or by one of the people that was about to crucify him; others suggest it may have been Simon of Cyrene, or one of the disciples such as Judas Iscariot. These theories, however, are not based on any textual evidences and are not found anywhere in the Qur'an.

The crucifixion interpretation, however, was rejected, and according to the Encyclopedia of Islam, there has been unanimous agreement amongst Islamic scholars in denying the crucifixion.[19] Modern commentators such as M. Hayek interpret the verse to say that the crucifixion "seemed thus to them" [i.e. the Jews].[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But, I'd still like to hear from a Muslim on that to see what they belive and what they think the prevalent belief is amongst Muslims.

[Satyagraha]

The Passion of Christ
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/623/

“Then when Jesus felt their (persistence in) disbelief, he said, ‘Who will champion with me God’s (cause)?’  The disciples said, ‘We are the champions (of the cause) of God.  We believe in God, and be a witness that we are Muslims (submitting to Him).[1]  Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the messenger, so write us down among the witnesses (to the truth).’  And they (who disbelieved) plotted, and God planned.  And God is the best of the planners.  When God said, ‘O Jesus, I will take you[2]  and raise you up to Me and clear you of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection.  Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you in the matters you used to disagree in.’” (Quran 3:52-55)

“And for of their saying, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God.’  But they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to look like him to them.[3]  And those who disagree over him are in doubt (of killing) him, they have no knowledge of it except the following of guesswork, and they did not kill him for certain.  But God raised him up to Himself.[4]  And God is All- Powerful, All- Wise.” (Quran 4:157-158)

=============================

Footnote 3:  The resemblance of Jesus was put on another, and it is he, not Jesus, who was crucified.  According to several commentaries on the Quran, the one who was crucified was one of the disciples, accepting the resemblance of Jesus, and martyring himself to save Jesus in return for paradise.

=============================

Muslims don't believe that Jesus died on the cross; they believe God took Jesus up to heaven. That's the teaching, according to the Quran. When muslims speak the words of the shahada, "There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his Messenger", they are declaring that there is no other God (hence, Jesus is not a God), and they believe that Mohammed was his messenger - the person to whom he delivered his 'word' in the form of the Quran, through the angel Gabriel. They believe that Jesus, Moses and Abraham were also messengers of God.

To be a true muslim, you believe in the teachings of the Quran; it's not open to debate. If a muslim does not believe that, it would be like a christian who didn't believe that Christ died on the cross. It's not an 'optional' belief.

[rabblevox]

My first question would be is it true muslims believe that right before Christ died on the cross that God replaced him with an imposture

I'm not a Muslim (or a Christian for that matter), but I've studied the religion respectfully.  I can answer with certainty that most Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross.  That's beyond argument.

After that? ...The details?... It's different factions with different interpretations, (that sound like any other religions you know?). But the "majority view" for Islam is that Jesus was taken bodily into heaven by God before his death.

[citizenx]

Before his death?

I thought he was supposed to come back in Islam to join the Mahdi in defeating the Dajjal.

Again, I'd really rather hear answers from a Muslim, though.

[rabblevox]

Before his death?

Yes, assumed bodily from the cross before his death.  The Q'uran isn't that hard to Google.

[Satyagraha]

Before his death?

I thought he was supposed to come back in Islam to join the Mahdi in defeating the Dajjal.

Again, I'd really rather hear answers from a Muslim, though.

You can walk into any mosque and ask to speak to the Imam. They are happy to answer questions and you should not worry about asking them. That's probably a better way to get information than asking a "muslim" on an anonymous forum... which puts the muslim on the spot, makes him or her an automatic spokesman, and you can't actually be certain you're talking to someone who is really a muslim. I mean how can you be sure you haven't already been talking to a muslim? See? Go to speak to an Imam and get answers to your questions, and probably some reading material to take with you.

[citizenx]

Actually, from what I have read Muslims believe Jesus hasn't died at all yet but will return from heaven to defeat the antichrist (Dajjal) with the Mahdi, who will die.  Jesus will then rule for forty more years on earth before he dies.  I'll try to find you a link though.

And, yes, I have Googled it, but I wanted to hear from some Muslims.

That sounded just a little smart-alecky, Rabblevox.

[citizenx]

You can walk into any mosque and ask to speak to the Imam. They are happy to answer questions and you should not worry about asking them. That's probably a better way to get information than asking a "muslim" on an anonymous forum... which puts the muslim on the spot, makes him or her an automatic spokesman, and you can't actually be certain you're talking to someone who is really a muslim. I mean how can you be sure you haven't already been talking to a muslim? See? Go to speak to an Imam and get answers to your questions, and probably some reading material to take with you.

OK, well there is a Central Masjid, and if and when I have the chance to do that, I just might.

But that is a good sugggestion.  No argument.

And my intention is definitely not to put any Muslims on the spot.  Far from it.

Also, quite right.  It is possible there are anonymous Muslims on the forum as well, and I could respect and understand that.

[citizenx]

For Rabblevox:

Second comingSee also: Second Coming
Muslims believe that Jesus will return at a time close to the end of the world. The Qur'anic verse they allude to as an indicator to Jesus' future return is as follows:[5]

“ “And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.”[Qur'an 43:61] ”

According to Islamic tradition which describes this graphically, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi (lit. "the rightly guided one"), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist (al-Masīkh ad-Dajjāl, "false messiah") and his followers.[20] Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes – his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Antichrist. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist, and then everyone from the people of the book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam.[21]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the 'pigs', and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks.[20] Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die. Muslims will then perform the funeral prayer for him and then bury him in the city of Medina in a grave left vacant beside Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar (companions of Muhammad and the first and second Muslim caliphs respectively).[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

[rabblevox]

That sounded just a little smart-alecky, Rabblevox.

It was a little "smart-alecky", citezenx.  

I"m actually a little boggled that you would expect insight into Islamic  doctrine about Jesus  by asking a random Muslim.  It would be just as logical to ask a random Christian for insight on transubstantiation.  Quakers, Catholics, and Westboro Baptists will give you very different answers.

[citizenx]

I'm just not that curious about Christianity, and I don't personally know any Muslims.

But I really don't get it.

Anyway, haven't heard from anybody claiming to be a Mulsim yet, so I don't see what you are so freaked out about.

If I started a thread asking Christians for answers to a bunch of questions, I would probably get a lot of responses and nobody would be telling me not to do it.

In fact there are only about ten thousand threads on Prison Planet Forum from random Christians espousing their opinions on every point of Christian theology -- most of them worth the paper they are not printed on IMO.

[DAVIDE MTL]

You can walk into any mosque and ask to speak to the Imam. They are happy to answer questions and you should not worry about asking them. That's probably a better way to get information than asking a "muslim" on an anonymous forum... which puts the muslim on the spot, makes him or her an automatic spokesman, and you can't actually be certain you're talking to someone who is really a muslim. I mean how can you be sure you haven't already been talking to a muslim? See? Go to speak to an Imam and get answers to your questions, and probably some reading material to take with you.

what are u talking about? how are u putting them on the spot? this ain't a forum where we'll know who the person is anyway

[citizenx]

how are u putting them on the spot? this ain't a forum where we'll know who the person is anyway

That is true.  Good point.

[Freeski]

I'm just not that curious about Christianity, and I don't personally know any Muslims.

Come to Canada and hop in a cab - some of the most interesting discussions I've ever had were with those dudes, especially in the lead up to the Iraqi mass murder.

[Satyagraha]

what are u talking about? how are u putting them on the spot? this ain't a forum where we'll know who the person is anyway

Asking someone to come forward as a spokeman for all muslims is asking them to represent millions of people; that's putting someone on the spot.

And to your point, "this ain't a forum where we'll know who the person is anyway" is exactly why I suggested citizenx visit a mosque to get info directly from an imam, who will have been trained in islamic ideology. Going to a reputable source is a better way to get information than from an anonymous poster to a forum who will present personal opinion and may or may not be a muslim.

[citizenx]

That doesn't stop a lot of random posters from presenting their view of Christianity.

If I was a random Muslim poster, I'd go for it.

What the heck.

[Dok]

wow, just amazing and just what i would expect. Lets have a muslim board, where only muslims should answer, but hey, lets talk about Jesus. Typical, citizenx, no surprises there.

bye now... 

[Satyagraha]

wow, just amazing and just what i would expect. Lets have a muslim board, where only muslims should answer, but hey, lets talk about Jesus. Typical, citizenx, no surprises there.

bye now... 

Well you say that like Jesus is exclusive to Christian ideology... He's not... he's a prophet in Islam. A 'messenger of God', and discussing Jesus in a thread about Islam makes perfect sense, particularly for people who are not familiar with the similarities/differences between Islam and Christianty (and Judiaism; Moses is a prophet too...).

But you're just picking a fight Dok.

[citizenx]

Aren't there like ten thousand threads about Christianity started by Christians here?

Why can't we have ONE about Islam?

By the way, if you haven't noticed, I've been leaving y'all alone on your fundie Christian debate threads, like the "KJV only" thread which is always at the top of my replies box (boy am I sorry I ever posted there!)

So, if you don't like the thought of this thread even existing, get over it.

Just don't visit.

Still waiting for one Muslim.

I knew it would draw some other folk out of the woodwork though.

Like clockwork.

:boring:

[Dok]

Well you say that like Jesus is exclusive to Christian ideology... He's not... he's a prophet in Islam. A 'messenger of God', and discussing Jesus in a thread about Islam makes perfect sense, particularly for people who are not familiar with the similarities/differences between Islam and Christianity (and Judaism; Moses is a prophet too...).

But you're just picking a fight Dok.

Jesus is God in flesh, it serve you good if you get that now and soon. Second, no I'm not looking for a fight, i can pick those up all day on any number of Prison Planet Forum posts. But its really funny, hey lets make a thread just about Islam, no Christians aloud, and just talk about Jesus.   from a guy that attacks Jesus regularly. nice.

Maybe a better starting point would be is Allah even a god or is he just an idol god of the moon? Allah was the seventh in a pantheon of 360 differnet gods, Allah was the MOON god. That is why all their flags have the moon in it. And Allah had no son, that's true, he did have at least 3 daughters.  

that's picking a fight.    

[Satyagraha]

Jesus is God in flesh, it serve you good if you get that now and soon. Second, no I'm not looking for a fight, i can pick those up all day on any number of Prison Planet Forum posts. But its really funny, hey lets make a thread just about Islam, no Christians aloud, and just talk about Jesus.   from a guy that attacks Jesus regularly. nice.

Maybe a better starting point would be is Allah even a god or is he just an idol god of the moon? Allah was the seventh in a pantheon of 360 differnet gods, Allah was the MOON god. That is why all their flags have the moon in it. And Allah had no son, that's true, he did have at least 3 daughters.  

that's picking a fight.    

LMAO! Dok - this is turning into a Christian discussion dressed up in a hijab.

Allah is the God of Abraham.
God (the Christian and Jewish God) is the God of Abraham.
Same God.

[Dok]

LMAO! Dok - this is turning into a Christian discussion dressed up in a hijab.

Allah is the God of Abraham.
God (the Christian and Jewish God) is the God of Abraham.
Same God.

No its not, sorry, Allah is the arabic pagan moon god. The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is none other than Jesus. Not the moon god.

here is his idol.

[Satyagraha]

Maybe a better starting point would be is Allah even a god or is he just an idol god of the moon? Allah was the seventh in a pantheon of 360 differnet gods, Allah was the MOON god. That is why all their flags have the moon in it. And Allah had no son, that's true, he did have at least 3 daughters.  

BTW - We need source links for that info.

[Dok]

BTW - We need source links for that info.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

[Satyagraha]

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

LMAO! Of course, get your source information on Islam from the fundamentalist Christians.
And do you get your information on Christianity from Islamic websites? 
Puhleeeeeze.

[Dok]

LMAO! Of course, get your source information on Islam from the fundamentalist Christians.
And do you get your information on Christianity from Islamic websites? 
Puhleeeeeze.

im sorry, can you disprove it? lets see you try.

[citizenx]

And this is why no sane, non-masochistic,  self-respecting Muslim would ever show up here.

But I wish they would to set Dok straight on his misunderstanding of their religion.

[Dok]

And this is why no sane (non-masochistic) self-repsecting Muslim would ever show up here.

But I wish they would to set Dok straight on his misunderstanding of their religion.

  truth hurts, dude you had no desire to discuss the Islamic faith.

[citizenx]

Yes, I do, Dok.

Just not with you.

[Satyagraha]

im sorry, can you disprove it? lets see you try.

The issue is the source link you offer: it's not a scholarly source for information about Islam.
Geeze dok - don't you have a search engine?
Try going to an Islamic website for information about Islam. What's hard about that?

Or try a library. In fact, you can find information on wiki... and no moon-god bs is seen. For moon-god references, you need to go to co-opted fundamentalist websites funded by NWO foundations determined to keep the slaves fighting amongst themselves. The same people who believe you should follow the rules laid out by unconstitutional governments and their military-industrialist pals

[Dok]

The issue is the source link you offer: it's not a scholarly source for information about Islam.
Geeze dok - don't you have a search engine?
Try going to an Islamic website for information about Islam. What's hard about that?

Or try a library. In fact, you can find information on wiki... and no moon-god bs is seen. For moon-god references, you need to go to co-opted fundamentalist websites funded by NWO foundations determined to keep the slaves fighting amongst themselves. The same people who believe you should follow the rules laid out by unconstitutional governments and their military-industrialist pals

couldnt do it could you. so you give just a standard Prison Planet Forum responce when the truth hurts to much, enjoy.

[citizenx]

What's a "standard Prison Planet Forum response", Dok?

What's your beef with the majority (entirety?) of posters on the forum?

BTW, Dok, maybe I don't have a problem with Jesus, only your "Jesus".

[foreverfree]

it is somewhat suspect that a thread is created to learn about the Muslim faith and yet it goes quickly into talk about Jesus and yet he claims he doesn't want to fight with those fundamentalists.  What was the motivation in the Jesus discussion?  If it was to compare the faiths, then obviously one is false.  Jesus cannot both die on the cross and also have an impostor to die in his place.  So that would mean one text is false or has a false account and therefore one entire religion cannot be trusted.

But I doubt that was the true reason for the thread.  This forum is about the search of TRUTH, more than anything.  That is why you don't see much Muslim discussions.  

this thread is bait for a fight and nothing else.  his intentions were exposed in the second post.

[citizenx]

Most Mulsims do not believe an impostor was sent to die on the cross from what I can see, only that the Jews and Romans were led to believe Jesus died on the cross when he did not.

But I could be wrong.

I honestly did not start this thread to pick a fight.

If I did I would have posted it in the Religion/Bible-thumping/Atheism forum.

I can see why Immortal Truth might have left though.  I have some idea.

[DAVIDE MTL]

Asking someone to come forward as a spokeman for all muslims is asking them to represent millions of people; that's putting someone on the spot.

And to your point, "this ain't a forum where we'll know who the person is anyway" is exactly why I suggested citizenx visit a mosque to get info directly from an imam, who will have been trained in islamic ideology. Going to a reputable source is a better way to get information than from an anonymous poster to a forum who will present personal opinion and may or may not be a muslim.

who's asking for someone to be a spokesman to represent millions of muslims? it's an honest question for muslims, do they believe Jesus was replaced by an imposture before his crucifiction? that's not putting anyone on the spot, if citizen x wants to visit a mosque that's great too.

[citizenx]

I do actually, but I work on Fridays, so it will have to be some different day.