Important analysis concerning Jesse's Pentagon episode and the no plane theory

[jimd3100]

Does anyone have an estimate of the volume of people (in numbers) who actually saw the plane hit? Is it dozens or hundreds?

Hoffman has compiled a bunch...
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html#witnesses
I think all together it's around 100 on the record.

The forum member SHURE has called and talked to as many as he could find and posted the recorded interviews on his own forum.........

http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/topic/3459052/1/

[DAVIDE MTL]

i say the 9/11 truth stance on the pentagon should be we don't know what hit it

[Valerius]

i say the 9/11 truth stance on the pentagon should be we don't know what hit it

Exactly.

Concentrate on what we know, and ask them what we don't.

[Freeski]

Thanks. Have you ever seen this photo?



Don't go to the site though... it tries to load tons of stuff!

[citizenx]

Look at the bent steel.

That hole appears to have been blown out, not in.

(Besides the size of the hole vis-a-vis a jetliner's fuselage front profile.)

[agentbluescreen]

If all you are going to do here is to defend the official conspiracy theory fable of the Pentagon then you do not belong here, kindly apply for a job at CNN.

Where are you keeping the other 85 videotapes that back up these crazy 757 crash hearsay theories?  Why did the witness in Arlington Cemetery see the cargo jet fly over the building? Why are there no marks on the lawn, no engine holes, no wings, landing gear or even a tail section? How can any jet airliner ever fly at 575 MPH three feet or less off of the ground? Why are there no photographs of any aircraft wreckage of any sort  whatsoever being removed from that building? How could a commercial airliner be hijacked when the cabin door remained shut for the entire flight? How could a woman and child a few feet from a supposed "airliner crash" crawl out of a hole in the wall the size of a two car garage when it should have contained a roaring kerosene fire?

Why was there no NTSB air crash investigation?

[donnay]

Does anyone have an estimate of the volume of people (in numbers) who actually saw the plane hit? Is it dozens or hundreds?

According to this site:  http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/witnesses.html

at least 45    The amount of eye witnesses who reported seeing a plane and described it with words like: 'airliner', 'big', 'silver', 'roaring', etc.

[Freeski]

According to this site:  http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/witnesses.html

at least 45    The amount of eye witnesses who reported seeing a plane and described it with words like: 'airliner', 'big', 'silver', 'roaring', etc.

That's a lot, but not a lot - when you think from an evil point of view.

[MonkeyPuppet]

Where are you keeping the other 85 videotapes that back up these crazy 757 crash hearsay theories?  Why did the witness in Arlington Cemetery see the cargo jet fly over the building? Why are there no marks on the lawn, no engine holes, no wings, landing gear or even a tail section? How can any jet airliner ever fly at 575 MPH three feet or less off of the ground? Why are there no photographs of any aircraft wreckage of any sort  whatsoever being removed from that building? How could a commercial airliner be hijacked when the cabin door remained shut for the entire flight? How could a woman and child a few feet from a supposed "airliner crash" crawl out of a hole in the wall the size of a two car garage when it should have contained a roaring kerosene fire?

Why was there no NTSB air crash investigation?

Each and every one of these questions would/could be answered with the video from the ridiculous amount of cameras located on that side of the Pentagon and from nearby businesses.  Yet, we're to believe that since the government answered a FOIA request saying there is only ONE video from ONE angle of the entire event, that that is all there is?  I have my opinion on what MIGHT have happened, but that accounts for shit and I realize that.  All I want, and what I'm pretty sure everyone else wants, is the freakin' footage that we all know exists but has not been released.

Whatever the truth is, that is all that anyone wants, and to get it we need the additional footage.  Not releasing the footage only makes "them" look more guilty every damn day.

[agentbluescreen]

There are only four or five that actually saw some sort of a cargo jet plane fly-over before they heard the distant explosion, and one of them (on the other side in Arlington Cemetery) saw it fly right over the building. The rest just agreed that they saw the Pentagon fire after they heard the explosion, and were told it had been a plane crash.

Once eyewitnesses discover their new-found celebrity, they almost always exaggerate and embellish their stories.  There were twice the number of cameras than there were witnesses

[donnay]

That's a lot, but not a lot - when you think from an evil point of view.

Yeah, I agree.  I would agree with DAVIDE MTL  above, I have said from day-1, I have no idea what hit the pentagon but if they got nothing to hide why not release at least half of their tapes? 

Not to mention, we are talking about one of the most securest buildings on the face of the earth and their airspace was penetrated on 9/11.  They are also equipped with missiles on top of their buildings.

Let us not forget, it wasn't the 9/11 truth movement who said "missiles" it was Donald Rumsfeld and one of the 9/11 commissioners, Tim Roemer who made that Freudian slip!

Even CNN on the fateful day said no plane hit the pentagon when reporting it:  http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/Cnn%5B1%5D.Pentagon.Jamie.Mcintyre.swf

Also this is off topic but did your know...  "Construction on The Pentagon begun on September 11, 1941."

Sources:
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
http://oddyfunny.blogspot.com/2010/11/top-ten-most-secured-buildings-in-world.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/pentagon.htm
http://www.papermodelsonline.com/opentagon.html

[worcesteradam]

lets remember Government records only show two aircraft taking off
only two aircraft were ever seen by the public.

I feel we are on the verge of a big breakthrough if we can just figure out what they did. Why would they need to pretend there were four aircraft?
Maybe Operation Northwoods has some clues

[jimd3100]

If all you are going to do here is to defend the official conspiracy theory fable of the Pentagon then you do not belong here, kindly apply for a job at CNN.

I also defend the official conspiracy theory fable of planes at the WTC as well, and "my handlers" assigned me here not CNN.

Where are you keeping the other 85 videotapes that back up these crazy 757 crash hearsay theories?

In my basement.

Why did the witness in Arlington Cemetery see the cargo jet fly over the building?

No one saw any plane fly over the pentagon. Some did see a c 130. The reason they saw it was because it was there.

Why are there no marks on the lawn, no engine holes,

It flew into the building not the lawn, and there is a hole in the pentagon that is very similar to the hole at the WTC, caused mostly by the engines. Why would I continue to post these pictures when you ignore them and pretend they don't exist?

no wings, landing gear or even a tail section?

Planes do in fact have wings and landing gear and also a tail section. However when it hits a building there isn't much left, but the landing gear is made of steel and I've posted pictures of it several times. Why should I keep doing it and have you ask the same question over and over and over and over?

How can any jet airliner ever fly at 575 MPH three feet or less off of the ground?

The plane was descending until just before the impact. It flew more than a few feet off the ground

Why are there no photographs of any aircraft wreckage of any sort  whatsoever being removed from that building?

Why are you lying about no aircraft wreckage of any sort being photographed?

How could a commercial airliner be hijacked when the cabin door remained shut for the entire flight?

Because the FDR didn't record that data, that becomes obvious when it remained shut for the flight before and the flight before that and the flight before that. Either the pilots that flew the plane never ever went for a snack or even to the bathroom or the FDR didn't record that data.

How could a woman and child a few feet from a supposed "airliner crash" crawl out of a hole in the wall the size of a two car garage when it should have contained a roaring kerosene fire?

Maybe you should ask her that.

Why was there no NTSB air crash investigation?

What does this look like to you? And why do you pretend to care about any of this when it means nothing to you because you are married to your missile hit conspiracy theory?

https://www.ntsb.gov/Info/Flight_%20Path_%20Study_AA77.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_aa77_ua93_study.pdf

https://www.ntsb.gov/Info/ATC_%20Report_AA77.pdf

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/index.htm

[citizenx]

That's a lot, but not a lot - when you think from an evil point of view.

Look at how many first-responders are already dead -- some under mysterious circumstances.

Many whistle-blowers from 9/11 dead under mysterious circumstances.

That is my point exactly.

[chris jones]

 What does get to the bottom line is Americas Security was out to lunch.
The Pentagon, the very nucleus of our nations military was attacked, our fellow Americans were murdered.
What happened and why, we deserve all the facts. NORAD,FAA,NSA,DOD, to name a few, are they incompetant,were they ordered to stand down.??
These tapes, do they expect us to beleive that the pentagon does not have security cameras fixed on this area, WT &*¨. That our Intelligence agensy had to rely on a gas station video??
86 tapes and not a one of them has an actual visual. SURE, why were they not released immediatly, why the waiting period, whats the secret, these were our fellow Americans blown to bits.
 #I regress one of the tapes does, however the FBI found it nesessary to ENHANCE it??
                             This is a replay of the JFK assassination.

[Wintermute]

After reviewing the leaked pager texts from 9-11, it seems that some of the witnesses told a different story... 

2001-09-11 09:41:29 Arch [0821906] A  ALPHA  There are now reporting that a small explosion occurred at the Pentagon.  They're not sure if its construction related or something else. 
2001-09-11 09:42:21 Arch [0821906] A  ALPHA  A reporter now is saying a bomb exploded by the pentagon helaport!!!
2001-09-11 09:43:05 Metrocall [1116431] D  ALPHA  A BOMB HAS GONE OFF AT THE HELIPORT AT THE PENTAGON
2001-09-11 09:43:05 Metrocall [1067364] B  ALPHA  now they are showing the pentagon with a ton of smoke and saying that a bomb was detonated! pretty significant blast is what they are saying!
2001-09-11 09:43:10 Arch [0805152] A  ALPHA  Update - the pentagon was just bombed!
2001-09-11 09:43:20 Arch [1404529] A  ALPHA  Hi, there was just an explosion at the Pentagon.  There saying it was a bomb.  Kathy
2001-09-11 09:43:38 Arch [1618963] A  ALPHA  dbotting|They just blew up the pentagon. Not sure how bad the damage is.   
2001-09-11 09:43:52 Skytel [007464100] B  ALPHA  murphyjd_2000@yahoo.com|terrorism|A bomb just detenated at the pentagon heliport tooo. in Washington DC 
2001-09-11 09:44:11 Metrocall [1145034] C  ALPHA  PENTAGON HAS BEEN BOMBED, #3
2001-09-11 09:44:27 Metrocall [0777441] A  ALPHA  The Pentagon has just been hit by a major explosion and fire. owens ACO (ID: 1953)
2001-09-11 09:44:48 Skytel [003280658] A  ALPHA  jahart@us.ibm.com|Pentagon|A bomb just exploded at the Pentagon.
2001-09-11 09:46:48 Arch [1399051] C  ALPHA  Sir,  Pentagon just was hit by what looks to be fairly large bomb in vicinity of Heliport.  Base has gone to threatcon "C"  which essentially closes the base gates.  Trying to get more info.   2001-09-11 09:50:03 Arch [1020272] A  ALPHA  it's reported that a US military helicopter circled the building then crashed into or next to the Pentagon - it's not clear to whether it was the White House or the Pentagon - they are being evacuated
2001-09-11 09:50:46 Skytel [002353802] C  ALPHA  jackie.r.berry@lmco.com|4 bombs at the Pentagon|
2001-09-11 09:52:02 Metrocall {1175659} 1 2400 Frm: MSN Txt: Kavitha Sunand Nair: bomb was diffused at the heliport at pentagon. white house and pentagon being emptied.....
2001-09-11 14:54:07 Metrocall [0665556] B  ALPHA  Frm: Nora VanDoren Sub: Txt: "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

As to none of the footage from the 85 fixed cameras being available.. didn't any of the witnesses have their own cameras?

[citizenx]

Look at the bent steel.

That hole appears to have been blown out, not in.

(Besides the size of the hole vis-a-vis a jetliner's fuselage front profile.)

Ok, I may have been wrong about that.  It could well be an exit hole on the opposite side of the E ring.

Can anyone verify?

I am willing to admit when I was wrong.  I'm not saying that everything about the offical version adds up vis-avis a plane crashing into the Pentagon on 9/11, but on that I am willing to concede that point if I am in fact wrong.

[pac522]

One cannot override the laws of physical flight science or the engineering design limitations of the vehicle to "do" something that is physically impossible for it to do. The so-called "flight data recorder" data was hastily falsified and released untested by incompetent hubris-filled idiots to make it superficially appear to support an impossible scenario. If this supposed "Flight 77" data was true it could be very simply and easily verified, but it can't, because it isn't.

You may have forgot that the planes flight computers have parameters set that can not be over ridden from the cockpit. This is where the CESAR software architecture comes in to play.

I don't really see any point in continuing to say release the videos! What are they hiding?! Because they already told us.

Here's the deal with the 85 videos....

Judicial Watch supposedly got the crappy video released that is supposed to show the plane impact. They got most of the press but actually it was a guy named Scott Bingham that did a FOIA that got it released. He was asking for any and all videos showing the plane impact at the pentagon. He had a website called www.flight77.info. It's no longer any good because he got tired of being harassed by "9-11 truthers". But using the wayback machine you can still see his FOIA request response letters.......

Again, NIST footage comes to mind. And I've said it before, arguing about the Pentagon is fruitless, like kissing your sister, it may feel good with your eyes closed, but it's just wrong, wrong, wrong. There are plenty of other concrete things about 9/11 to focus on.

[agentbluescreen]

Yeah.  Rumsfeld and Cheney might as well been caught with a smoking gun.  And Mineta's testimony - what about that?  Seemed like he tried to do the right thing - but Mineta seemed to go sortof silent too - must've got a message about his families' security.

Are you kidding? Stop discrediting and impugning the perfect and pristinely honest reputation of our poor, wonderful, happy, loving ex-Defense Secretary!

As our masters here have decreed, only the official 9/11 Commission Report version of the events at the Pentagon are the "9/11 Truth" all else is pure and total gnostic "cointelpro" heresy, solely and purposefully intended to discredit us!

[jimd3100]

Are you kidding? Stop discrediting and impugning the perfect and pristinely honest reputation of our poor, wonderful, happy, loving ex-Defense Secretary!

As our masters here have decreed, only the official 9/11 Commission Report version of the events at the Pentagon are the "9/11 Truth" all else is pure and total gnostic "cointelpro" heresy, solely and purposefully intended to discredit us!

No genius, I've pointed out repeatedly Rumsfeld's guilt on this board as you well know. The no plane theories are what is BS. And as for the 9-11 Commission report. It was a whitewash, but if you actually gave a sh*t about the truth, or a new investigation, what they say happened, or any of that, you might want to give it a read, but you aren't a researcher. You are just a conspiracy theorists who makes stuff up and then believes it. Case in point---Who was the young man asking "do the orders still stand'? For years "truthers" have been asking that. I gave you the answer. It's Doug Cochrane. How did I know? I studied the 9-11 Commission and the footnotes and the released notes.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=181511.0

In fact if you were to read the thread there, you might find evidence against Mr Rumsfeld, proving once again you tend to make stuff up.

That is a difference between us. I do research to seek the truth. You Spout your nonsense.

[jimd3100]

Michael Rivero’s Comments on What Really Happened at the Pentagon:

“This whole no plane at the Pentagon is a poison-the-well propaganda trick to discredit the 9/11 Truth Movement.”

"It’s a fraud. It’s a hoax.”

“Jesse Ventura got used by somebody…”

“It’s called poisoning the well.”

Michael Rivero gives his take ...

http://www.visibility911.com/downloads/mp3/whatreallyhappened_pentagon.mp3

from:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

[Damascus]

Yep lets just ignore the laws of physics, it just poisons the well. You have to conflicting stories both with some credible evidence. A few people trying to get to the bottom of this, while others dogmatically insist that it is a waist of time, and should move on to other things. I am really glad people in the truth movement are so open minded to tell people what should and should not be looked into.


Thought police much?

[Dig]

Yep lets just ignore the laws of physics, it just poisons the well. You have to conflicting stories both with some credible evidence. A few people trying to get to the bottom of this, while others dogmatically insist that it is a waist of time, and should move on to other things. I am really glad people in the truth movement are so open minded to tell people what should and should not be looked into.


Thought police much?

Damascus, no one on this forum has researched the events on 9/11 more than jimd3100, and I mean no one (feel free to contest it anyone). I would recommend reading his last 100 posts or so (or do an advanced search with his user name and the word "pentagon"). It is very difficult to actually support your argument because it is just an argument that people should have an open mind. Jimd3100 has actually studied the evidence, the witnesses, the official documents, the off the record interviews, everything. Please at least review what exactly it is you are arguing. thanks

[agentbluescreen]

Damascus, no one on this forum has researched the events on 9/11 more than jimd3100, and I mean no one (feel free to contest it anyone). I would recommend reading his last 100 posts or so (or do an advanced search with his user name and the word "pentagon"). It is very difficult to actually support your argument because it is just an argument that people should have an open mind. Jimd3100 has actually studied the evidence, the witnesses, the official documents, the off the record interviews, everything. Please at least review what exactly it is you are arguing. thanks

I have thoroughly reviewed all of this so-called "research" and much more, thank you Dig. I simply cannot and do not agree with the erroneous and ill-explained and self-contradictory conclusions that you here oddly seem far too eager and happy to accept without any further investigation whatsoever.

 I equally cannot accept the patently false description of the air-dropped Pegasys JPADS naval Boeing AGM 86C missile launching cargo-palette platform dressed up as a "tent" (with fasteners at 20" centers) with a front launch tube door and exhaust burns in it's skirts as "a Korean War era floorless tensioned arch 16' X 20' Jamesway Hut, (which has only 4' centers and no structurally integral floor) being hustled off the lawn from a position on the lawn coincident with the angle of trajectory of the AUP PENETRATOR missile impact.

I equally cannot accept your explanation of the high Depleted Uranium radiation readings in the Arlington area long after the penetrator missile explosion and fire at the Pentagon

If there are 84 other stolen and hidden camera view recordings of the Pentagon that morning 10 years ago that show nothing more than what any passerby could have seen and yet somehow "do not show" an airplane crashing into the Pentagon, then why not release them all? OBVIOUSLY they must show something else.

[Damascus]

Damascus, no one on this forum has researched the events on 9/11 more than jimd3100, and I mean no one (feel free to contest it anyone). I would recommend reading his last 100 posts or so (or do an advanced search with his user name and the word "pentagon"). It is very difficult to actually support your argument because it is just an argument that people should have an open mind. Jimd3100 has actually studied the evidence, the witnesses, the official documents, the off the record interviews, everything. Please at least review what exactly it is you are arguing. thanks

I still have the problem of the laws of physics, they just won't go away no mater how much to reread his "research". And this very indecent is the thing that led me to the truth movement in the first place. I have read 4 or 5 book on this and gone over what ever evidence I can find on the internet. Theses stories do not add up, and just ignoring it is a lame excuse. Deferment to "authority" dose not work on me.

[DAVIDE MTL]

I have thoroughly reviewed all of this so-called "research" and much more, thank you Dig. I simply cannot and do not agree with the erroneous and ill-explained and self-contradictory conclusions that you here oddly seem far too eager and happy to accept without any further investigation whatsoever.

 I equally cannot accept the patently false description of the air-dropped Pegasys JPADS naval Boeing AGM 86C missile launching cargo-palette platform dressed up as a "tent" (with fasteners at 20" centers) with a front launch tube door and exhaust burns in it's skirts as "a Korean War era floorless tensioned arch 16' X 20' Jamesway Hut, (which has only 4' centers and no structurally integral floor) being hustled off the lawn from a position on the lawn coincident with the angle of trajectory of the AUP PENETRATOR missile impact.

I equally cannot accept your explanation of the high Depleted Uranium radiation readings in the Arlington area long after the penetrator missile explosion and fire at the Pentagon

If there are 84 other stolen and hidden camera view recordings of the Pentagon that morning 10 years ago that show nothing more than what any passerby could have seen and yet somehow "do not show" an airplane crashing into the Pentagon, then why not release them all? OBVIOUSLY they must show something else.

I would agree with this, we don't know what hit the pentagon, why should 9/11 truth paint itself into a corner and state "100% a 747 hit the pentagon" or "I think it was a missile"...what's wrong with stating we just don't know

[citizenx]

Simple, in America you are not allowed to simply state you don't know something. 

One of our cultural Achilles' heels.  (We have many more than one.)

[jimd3100]

I am really glad people in the truth movement are so open minded to tell people what should and should not be looked into.

No one is telling you what should and shouldn't be looked into. In fact what I've been trying to do for the last 3 years is get people to look into this, to expose how 9-11 truth has been conned and lied to with edited clips and manipulative photos. I've always encourged looking into All Areas. It seems to be fine if I look into it. But I should not show all the overwhelming evidence of a plane impact at the pentagon because it "supports the official story". That's not very realistic. Using that logic we should stop saying planes flew into the WTC.

Thought police much?

No, and the "group think" canard doesn't work either since I never bought into the group think of a missile hitting. It seems it's fine if I post how the towers shouldn't have collapsed, how there was a stand down and so on, but if I'm not a pentagon no planer I am "dogmatic" and "suspicious". I am being the opposite of dogmatic. I prefer to deal with reality. On 9-11 planes flew into buildings. There is no reason for me to think a plane did not hit the pentagon. That's not being dogmatic.  There are lots of reasons for being convinced it did happen. On 9-11 planes did in fact fly into buildings.

[Damascus]

No one is telling you what should and shouldn't be looked into. In fact what I've been trying to do for the last 3 years is get people to look into this, to expose how 9-11 truth has been conned and lied to with edited clips and manipulative photos. I've always encourged looking into All Areas. It seems to be fine if I look into it. But I should not show all the overwhelming evidence of a plane impact at the pentagon because it "supports the official story". That's not very realistic. Using that logic we should stop saying planes flew into the WTC.

Hum see you trying to shift the argument and shut me down! We have many many  cameras for the 2 towers, and I never brought that up, you did. I am surprised you did not accuse me of thinking aliens did it.

No, and the "group think" canard doesn't work either since I never bought into the group think of a missile hitting. It seems it's fine if I post how the towers shouldn't have collapsed, how there was a stand down and so on, but if I'm not a pentagon no planer I am "dogmatic" and "suspicious". I am being the opposite of dogmatic. I prefer to deal with reality. On 9-11 planes flew into buildings.

Ok the physical hole not being big enough, the plane seemingly being completely denigrated, the lawn not being tore up, the flight recorder that shows stuff the plain nor pilot could not do, the conflict of the eye witnesses in where the flight path was. I never said it was a missile just that the freaking evidence dose not fit! Maybe we should just trust our government that the other cameras have nothing on them? Just like every other false flag they have pulled off. I really like it that your now the self appointed expert and that no of the rest of us can hold a candle to you. So much for not infighting!

[Dig]

I have thoroughly reviewed all of this so-called "research" and much more, thank you Dig.

You have? In your mind? In some cloud architecture that has absolutely no point of reference whatsoever? Please simply add some links to the research you have done and the specific information that relates to the argument. I mean, do not get me wrong, I can rant as good as anyone, but simply ranting when such a plethora of sound, documented, referenced material has been provided is a bit odd and makes it difficult to support the argument of "because I said so."

I simply cannot and do not agree with the erroneous

care to givwe an example of this?

and ill-explained

another example please?

and self-contradictory conclusions

another example if you do not mind kind sir.

that you here oddly seem far too eager and happy to accept

you will never find any example of this one, I am very confident on this.

without any further investigation whatsoever.

again, likely you were in the heat of the moment when you posted that part because you know you cannot back it up.

I equally cannot accept the patently false description

some sourced documentation please.

of the air-dropped Pegasys JPADS naval Boeing AGM 86C missile launching cargo-palette platform dressed up as a "tent" (with fasteners at 20" centers) with a front launch tube door and exhaust burns in it's skirts as "a Korean War era floorless tensioned arch 16' X 20' Jamesway Hut, (which has only 4' centers and no structurally integral floor) being hustled off the lawn from a position on the lawn coincident with the angle of trajectory of the AUP PENETRATOR missile impact.

there should be a good 100 sourced references for this one given all of the iron clad details.

I equally cannot accept your explanation

my explanation? when did i attempt to explain something that you have not referenced (as far as I know).

of the high Depleted Uranium radiation readings in the Arlington area long after the penetrator missile explosion and fire at the Pentagon

again, there should be at least 10 references of this.

If there are 84 other stolen and hidden camera view recordings of the Pentagon that morning 10 years ago that show nothing more than what any passerby could have seen and yet somehow "do not show" an airplane crashing into the Pentagon, then why not release them all? OBVIOUSLY they must show something else.

nothing wrong with that question, but there is a problem with simply ignoring the fact that over 100 items supposedly saying that a missile hit the pentagon have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be suspect or outright lies. jimd3100 has thoroughly documented these cases and just ignoring them as if they did not exist represents the so called "group think" stuff that have led millions to support the snake god operation called global warming and population threats to the earth.

[jimd3100]

Hum see you trying to shift the argument and shut me down!

LOL! Yes, obviously I am trying to censor you. Might want to get a grip on your paranoia.

We have many many cameras for the 2 towers,

Good thing too, or you would question wether a plane flew into the WTC. If you deny it explain why. There were more parts recovered from a plane at the pentagon than the WTC and no black boxes (so they say)found at the WTC, so without videos you would deny a plane impact at the WTC. The witnesses said a plane hit, just like at the pentagon.

and I never brought that up, you did. I am surprised you did not accuse me of thinking aliens did it.

Who is trying to shift the argument again?

Ok the physical hole not being big enough

You think this is a hole at the pentagon. Nope a plane can not fit fit in there....But this is no plane propaganda designed to deceive you..this is a picture of the water covering the hole


Hole at WTC caused by a plane....


No water covering hole at pentagon

the plane seemingly being completely denigrated,

The parts not heavy i.e. engine landing gear etc....was NOT disintegrated....like I said, more parts were found at the pentagon than the WTC

the lawn not being tore up, the flight recorder that shows stuff the plain nor pilot could not do,

The plane flew into the building not the lawn, and the plane obviously did do what it did all it did was fly into a building. I have doubts that Hani Hanjour could do it though, he seemed to be an expert that day. It was nice of him to hit the one spot just refurbished to cause the least amount of damage, I do find that suspitious since he went out of his way to do it.

the conflict of the eye witnesses in where the flight path

They saw a fast moving object for a few seconds coming in at an angle, is no surprise some witnesses would have the flight path off more than others, but they do all agree on one thing.....it hit the building. Since you like videos here's the deal. Post 1 video of a witness saying anything other than a plane hit and I will post 3 that say they saw a plane fly into the building.

I never said it was a missile just that the freaking evidence dose not fit!

It fits fine from where I sit.

Maybe we should just trust our government that the other cameras have nothing on them?

They will show a plane, if they show anything. I say that not because I believe the government but because every witness that was there said it.

I really like it that your now the self appointed expert and that no of the rest of us can hold a candle to you. So much for not infighting!

I've never claimed to be an expert or a leader. I post on this message board and I've never stopped you from posting anything. You are the one pissing and moaning that I have some nerve presenting this stuff. I wonder why?

As for me being some expert or leader my response can be seen at the 1:28 mark of this video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kOhaIg4e_k

[Dig]

Hum see you trying to shift the argument and shut me down! We have many many  cameras for the 2 towers, and I never brought that up, you did. I am surprised you did not accuse me of thinking aliens did it.

did you even read what he wrote?

Ok the physical hole not being big enough,

did you read his sourced research?

the plane seemingly being completely denigrated,

ditto

the lawn not being tore up,

ditto

the flight recorder that shows stuff the plain nor pilot could not do,

ditto

the conflict of the eye witnesses in where the flight path was.

Which eyewitness?

I never said it was a missile just that the freaking evidence dose not fit!

which parts? and have you read the information about pretty much each piece of evidence?

Maybe we should just trust our government that the other cameras have nothing on them?

Weren't you just complaining about using this kind of logic, even though jimd3100 did not actually use it the way you thought he did, go back and read it.

Just like every other false flag they have pulled off.

Yes, like every one they create so many conflicting stories that the only way to get a hold on the situation is to leave no stone unturned which is what jimd has done and what you have absolutely refused to do.

I really like it that your now the self appointed expert and that no of the rest of us can hold a candle to you.

HE IS NOT SELF APPOINTED!

I BANNED HIM FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING ALL ALONG...EXPOSING EVERY MINISCULE DETAIL OF THE EVENTS OF 9/11 BECAUSE I WAS CAUGHT UP IN THE "GROUP THINK" ABOUT THE PENTAGON AND REFUSED TO READ THE EVIDENCE HE SO GENEROUSLY PROVIDED! HE HAS BEEN FIGHTING FOR TRUTH SINCE DAY ONE AND HAS NEVER LET UP, EXPOSING SO MANY ATTEMPTS TO SABATOGE EVERYTHING SO MANY HAVE COMMITTED THEMSELVES TO. HE AIN'T SELF APPOINTED AT ALL! AND ALTHOUGH HE WOULD NEVER REGARD HIMSELF AS SUCH, HE EARNED THAT TITLE OF EXPERT IN MY MIND THROUGH AN INEFFIBLE DESIRE TO SEE TRUTH BE KNOWN THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL. HE DOES THIS UNCONDITIONALLY, WITHOUT ANY AGENDA WHATSOEVER, AND WITH TOTAL AND COMPLETE CONCERN FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT UNDER CONTINUAL ATTACK AND THE INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS THAT THIS CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC PROTECTS.

AND ANYONE CAN HOLD A CANDLE TO HIM IF THEY SIMPLY RESEARCH AND EXPOSE THE TRUTH AS HE HAS BEEN DOING.

So much for not infighting!

That is a commitment, so please do the research (even one tenth of the research, something at least) so that the infighting you are creating can disappear and rational, sourced discourse can commence.

thanks

[Damascus]

I am not at all impressed with your assertions. I could point out the holes in your evidence but since your the expert and chose the evidence to fit I leave it to you. I have seen many pics that refute your pics. I could point out the fact of scale, the parts seemingly laying on the ground(not dug in at all) like they were placed there afterward. I will leave you be because arguing with you anymore is pointless I say it is all dogma an this is your forum after all.

[Damascus]

dig I have and still disagree is that ok or should I just bow down right now? Did you see Jessie's show at all and the video evidence(I saw this before the show) the was shot right after the crash? Maybe that was just a plant. I still say the argument is being skewed. It seem that both of you have mind set on this and no matter my argument it will still be unproductive as we do not have the tapes.

[Dig]

I am not at all impressed with your assertions.

Well if you are impressed with your own assertions based on zero supporting documentation then not being impressed with another who does provide a plethora of such information and referenced materisl should hardly be a surprise.

I could point out the holes in your evidence but since your the expert and chose the evidence to fit I leave it to you.

Well judging by the logic in your other arguments, this actually makes a lot of sense. We are nearing an Ionnescoesque phase...I can sense it.

I have seen many pics that refute your pics.

Where? In a Britney Spears video? Why not docuemt the argument? Why just concede without providing a shred of evidence?

I could point out the fact of scale, the parts seemingly laying on the ground(not dug in at all) like they were placed there afterward.

Why wouldn't you do this with evidence so that it can be reviewed and further details can be incovered? Isn't that the point of being a bona fide movement of researchers who refuse to be manipulated by "group think"? 

I will leave you be because arguing with you anymore is pointless I say it is all dogma an this is your forum after all.

Dogma is blind faith, you are the only one wishing to be blind by refusing to openly expose what you feel is legitimate. Just argue the points, provide evidence, wtf? Isn't that what you have been arguing for? You win, you have the floor, state the case, provide the details and supporting info

[Dig]

dig I have and still disagree is that ok or should I just bow down right now?

who said you cannot disagree? that is all you have been doing. it just would be helpful if you explained what it is you are disagreeing with and some supporting documentation.

Did you see Jessie's show at all

You tell me...

Jesse covered multiple areas that require more investigations and he left the evidence out there for the general public to investigate further. Here were the areas that he brought to the public's attention:

1] Impossibility for alleged "terrorist" to fly flight 77 into the Pentagon. He really left no room for doubt on this one. He interviewed his instructor, senior pilots, and even had flight simulation footage to expose the absurdity corroborated by a seasoned pilot.
2] The motive of the $2.3 Trillion missing funds. He exposed the Rumsfeld footage on September 10, 2001. He also exposed Resource Services Washington which accounted for the most concentration of Pentagon assassinations (34 out of the 45 workers were murdered on 9/11/2001). They were the mostly civilian accountants who were busy finding out which defense contractors and black operations were stealing trillions of dollars from the American taxpayers. He also exposed WedgeOne which was where these people were working on this investigation and coincidently was exactly where the assassinations took place.

More:
An office of the Army that had just re-occupied the Pentagon's recently renovated Wedge One, named Resource Services Washington, lost 34 of its 45 employees. Most were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and budget analysts.
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/victims/pentagonkilled.html

http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-01/12-20-01/a02wn018.htm

The following is a debunking site, but it actually exposes so much more evidence about this incontrovertible motive that was even unknown by the 911 commission.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Missing_Trillions

http://www.nooniefortin.com/thepentagon.htm
3] He exposed that the 9/11 commission was stopped from a full investigation by timelines, budget crunches, and lack of full subpeana power. He confronted a member of the 9/11 commission who was mind bogglingly unaware that $2.3 Trillion in American taxpayer money was stolen by defense contractors and black operations, and that it was exposed less than 24 hours before the 9/11 attacks. He also got her to admit that protecting the establishment was the utmost goal of the 9/11 commission and not to find out the truth. I cannot help but think how stupid these people are because the only thing that will truly protect our constitutional government is the truth. The reason that people think they are anti-government when they are really anti-globalist slow coup d'etat of our constitutional government is because of morons like this commissioner who do not follow their oaths to the constitution.
4] He exposed the stand down orders from the Ray Mineta congressional testimony and Dick Cheney's command and control while Bush was reading to school children. This to me was extremely powerful because he also exposed how Mineta's testimony was deleted from the 9/11 commission report and how his video testimony has been erased from the 9/11 commission master multimedia records. This is absolutely shocking. Additionally, he interviewed a witness who said NORAD had stand down order which he heard about on his radio and that initially the report was that a missile hit the Pentagon. He also exposed the fact that over a hundred videos from the over one hundred video cameras loooking at the Pentagon 24/7 have been confiscated and hidden from the public for over 9 years.
5] He proposed that the possibility of something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon based on testimonies including a witness who was in the building at the time. Her testimony I never saw before. She told investigators she heard a bomb and they told her she needed to stick with the official story. Also the covnversation about the nose of the plane and the lack of engines causing damage to the outer ring was brought up. He also interviewed the camera man that was on the scene very quickly and explained the lack of debris. Jesse also speculated about a possible flyover. But, he did not spend the entire episode speculating about such things. He was very focused on physical evidence and not speculation. He also never stated any theory as absolute fact and the entire episode shows how to go about investigating such stuff.
6] The Ted Olson cell phone call was disputed but in a way that does not target Olson. They say he was likely duped and they show technology that easily could have been the phone call to Ted (and possibly others). The ramifications of this technology are widespread and possibly expose more about the cybernetics agenda than anything else. I am surprised this got allowed to be exposed because it really exposes much of the reasons for all of these massive Iron Mountain Eschelon Stasi multimedia files on everyone.

7] Jesse speculates on the possibility that the Pentagon attack was a bonus, possibly part of a shelved operation (we know that because of the pictures months earlier in the Pentagon Plane Attack war game) that was added at the last minute to use the 9/11 attacks as cover for more damage that serves more purposes. By doing this, Jesse masterfully separates the attacks and possible motives for the attacks. This allows tems of millions more people who cannot possibly accept that crazy Arabs did not bring down the towers to investigate the motives behind the Pentagon attack on its own.

Overall, it was fricking awesome! I still have no clue how this stuff gets shown and I am positive that many people have risked so much to see that these shows get out to the world. I thank everyone known and unknown for all they have done that no one will likely ever know about to get the truth out!

He ended the show with the following which required no additional comments:

DON'T QUESTION MY PATRIOTISM BECAUSE I AM LOOKING FOR ANSWERS!
ONE THING I HAVE LEARNED, IF YOU DO NOT HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE, EVERYONE GETS BURNED!

and the video evidence(I saw this before the show) the was shot right after the crash? Maybe that was just a plant.

I adressed it and this thread got split off from that main thread because we wanted the show to stand on its own and the one piece of the show about speculating what hit the pentagon was to be discussed in a research thread. That is the purpose of this thread to continue jesse's investigation on what hit the pentagon and see if any witnesses have been compromised, if there were other sound arguments to the contrary, etc.

I still say the argument is being skewed.

You are right, we simply feel it is important to provide evidence and research on such matters as the 911 truth infiltrators have already been pushing many various narratives which have been proven false through research.

It seem that both of you have mind set on this and no matter my argument it will still be unproductive

Your arguments are unproductive because they do not include referenced evidence or because they have holes in them. Yhey certainly can be productive by simply sourcing your info.

as we do not have the tapes.

The tapes are 1/100th of the issue (at least) and still can be manipulated. We know that 7/7 was an inside job not simply because of missing tapes but because Reed Elsevier hired 1,000 people to do the exact same drill involving the exact same events at the exact same time as well as hundreds of other things.

[jimd3100]

9-11 happened in broad daylight in front of lots of people on a clear day. (WTC- Pentagon) there are families still grieving for their loved ones that were on those planes. Not a single witness in Arlington Virginia that saw what hit the pentagon said anything other than a plane hit the building. The rescue crews cleaned up the mess inside the pentagon and lots have been interviewed. Not by attention seeking lying loons who accuse everyone under the sun of being an "agent" if they don't agree with them but but researchers who compiled their work into a book that can be read for free at your public library.
http://www.amazon.com/Firefight-Inside-Battle-Save-Pentagon/dp/0891419055
There is no reason to insist a plane did not hit the pentagon. The whole no planes hoax started at the pentagon and you are living proof of how effective that hoax was. It was so effective some even fell for no planes at the WTC. The no planes stuff is a hoax.  If the 9-11 truth movement truly wants to be effective we need to get our shit together and stop falling for hoaxes. They are put out there for a reason and the reason is to discredit us and make us appear as loons. Mike Rivero is aware of this and so is Jim Hoffman.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/noplane/index.html

Hoffman fell for it too he lived and learned, the forum member SHURE fell for it to and is now exposing this BS, no one is perfect, get mad at the people promoting these hoaxes not the ones who live and learn like DIG ME Hoffman and Rivero   I'm not out to hoax anybody. I'm out to put some guilty people in prison. That will never ever happen if we keep saying "a plane didn't hit the pentagon we don't know what happened to it, it was a missile or a flyover no one saw."  These are hoaxes.  

[agentbluescreen]

Show me the 86 other stolen and hidden video recordings and I'll apologize for being an "idiot", "wretched toady" and "agent of the NWO". All those miscellaneous bits of junk could have been planted in that building, or dragged out and strewn about on the lawn by a tow package on the missile. The witness accounts are subjective, contradictory and inconclusive, the alleged flight recorder data is false and/or falsified the video shows a collision and projectile that could not possibly ever have been a 757 at such altitude, attitude, trajectory nor speed.

[Dig]

Show me the 86 other stolen and hidden video recordings and I'll apologize for being an "idiot".

i do not believe i ever called you an idiot and if i did i apologize

[jimd3100]

Show me the 86 other stolen and hidden video recordings and I'll apologize for being an "idiot".

I can't I don't have them the Government does. Evidently you trust the Government more than all the witnesses that were there and the rescue crews. But your response is one reason why I would never release them if I was the Government. Try putting a FOIA for them. I don't know why you trust them so much but I guess you have your reasons. I don't have a FOIA in for that because I don't give a shit what the tapes the Government has for these reasons...they already said they have no other videos of the impact at the pentagon so what's the point. If it shows a plane no planers will say it flew over the pentagon and fooled everyone. If you want to believe it shows a missile, even though there is not a shred of evidence a missile hit the pentagon you can believe anything you want. But you don't really care about those tapes as much as you care about your missile theory otherwise you'd be filing FOIA requests for them.

Show me the 86 other stolen and hidden video recordings and I'll apologize for being an "idiot", "wretched toady" and "agent of the NWO".

Who's stopping you from a FOIA since you trust Government videos so much?

All those miscellaneous bits of junk could have been planted in that building

The "junk" is called physical evidence and you have zero proof any of it was planted. Just keep expanding the conspiracy to include more and more and more people which is exactly what they would NOT do. They flew planes into buildings in NY they did the same thing in Arlington, you are just making up stories. Since you will never ever read this book because you only care about spreading your silly "theories" I'll show you how well they "planted" some parts....

Evidently for your theory to work one agent doing the "planting" was Agent Paul Bunyan....

"FEMA crews used a blowtorch to free the core of the motor from the column in which it was embedded. Then Fitch and several others used pieces of six-by-six to pry the motor loose from the column and push it off the pile" page 425
http://www.amazon.com/Firefight-Inside-Battle-Save-Pentagon/dp/B002NPCSXM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1293170313&sr=8-1

or dragged out and strewn about on the lawn by a tow package on the missile.

Funny how no one noticed that...or did you just make that up to? Yes, you did.

The witness accounts are subjective, contradictory and inconclusive,

If by subjective you mean they are all sure it was a plane, and by contradictory you mean they all agree it hit the pentagon and by inconclusive you mean they are sure of it ...then yea. Otherwise you seem to be in some alternative universe.

the alleged flight recorder data is false and/or falsified the video shows a collision and projectile that could not possibly ever have been a 757 at such altitude, attitude, trajectory nor speed.

Where did they find this flight data recorder? And no one who was there agrees with you. This is surely a big plus for the "truth" movement to be spreading this stuff. right?