Do you believe Satan is real?

[charrington]

What gets me that even if Satan or the whole Devil population is real why is it anyone possessed never goes on to become World Dictator ??

Usually they sit in bed and curse. vomit and pee...

Ususally it is people who have no demonic possession who are the most evil ?

Didn't Hitler want to get back at the Jews for being the Christ killers ?

Did Stalin, Mao or Pol-Pot get into any occult practices ??

Even if they did they went on to be kakistocrats by their own volition hence God keeping his promise of freewill.

It is always said that a Satanist will cause World War 3 but will it ?

I mean the NWO is into Molech worship ?  Even if Molech communicates with them they still are using their free will to enagage in any evil activity.

It seems to me the weak willed only ever get caught up is Satanism and all it ever leads to is ritualistic murders on a small scale.
A terrible thing don't get me wrong but sometimes the greatest of evils are committed in the pursuit of the greatest of nobilities.

Hey that's an interesting subject Rebelitarian -- they are possessed or at least persuaded.

Let me tell you an interesting bible passage that relates to this.

During Daniels time, he was to be given something special and the angel that was sent to him for that purpose got in a fight with the "Prince of Persia" and had to get help from another angel.

Medo-persia being the world power at that time. The bible points out world powers have demon princes over them is seen from the fact that Persia did; as the Bible records, the demon “prince of the royal realm of Persia” interfered with one of God’s angelic messengers in the days of Daniel.—2 Cor. 4:4; Dan. 10:13.

Every ruler has a demon assigned to him. I think most people have watched the exorcist (or some movie like it) and think that demonic possession is head spinning, foul mouthed  and puking. That rarely is the case.

Most of the time it can be uncontrollable emotional behavior, like crying, tantrums, attempted suicide,
self-mutilation and other violent behavior. Of course there are other strange occurrences that can correspond as well.

[charrington]

Ho……..
Well that’s ok then
To be honest I wasn’t expecting that!
It must be our mate Doc that does.
To be honest I love you all! I’d much rather spend my time debating this stuff than talking about whether or not Gillian really did faint?

Some here do believe that yeah - either way bottom line is we can't make that call -- in the end God reads the heart and decides - none of us have any say.

I do believe that at some point in time (soon) God will draw the line -- it can't continue forever. And people will be on both sides of that line.

[tennis shoe]

What gets me that even if Satan or the whole Devil population is real why is it anyone possessed never goes on to become World Dictator ??

Usually they sit in bed and curse. vomit and pee...

Ususally it is people who have no demonic possession who are the most evil ?

Didn't Hitler want to get back at the Jews for being the Christ killers ?

Did Stalin, Mao or Pol-Pot get into any occult practices ??

Even if they did they went on to be kakistocrats by their own volition hence God keeping his promise of freewill.

It is always said that a Satanist will cause World War 3 but will it ?

I mean the NWO is into Molech worship ?  Even if Molech communicates with them they still are using their free will to enagage in any evil activity.

It seems to me the weak willed only ever get caught up is Satanism and all it ever leads to is ritualistic murders on a small scale.
A terrible thing don't get me wrong but sometimes the greatest of evils are committed in the pursuit of the greatest of nobilities.

These entities are much smarter, faster, and stronger than humans.  They have been studying human behavior from the beginning.  Just as they can manifest exorcist style, they can also lie to appear benevolent or spend years in a host apparently dormant.  The Bible talks about evil “angels of light”.  The more the host willingly agrees with the demonic agenda of deceit, the less need there is for anything to manifest in the host.  Often the manifestations don’t start until the host has a change of heart and goes “turncoat”.  An example of this would be a high level occult practitioner that knows that she commands demons but is later surprised to find out that they are living inside of her.

Who’s to say that evil world leaders DON’T have anything going on in there?  Sort of a little insurance policy to make sure they do as they’re instructed?  Most certainly they are deceived if they use deception.  Deceitful agendas from outside the natural realm can easily be sugar-coated and peddled as good intentions.

[Kilika]

These entities are much smarter, faster, and stronger than humans.  They have been studying human behavior from the beginning.  Just as they can manifest exorcist style, they can also lie to appear benevolent or spend years in a host apparently dormant.  The Bible talks about evil “angels of light”.  The more the host willingly agrees with the demonic agenda of deceit, the less need there is for anything to manifest in the host.  Often the manifestations don’t start until the host has a change of heart and goes “turncoat”.  An example of this would be a high level occult practitioner that knows that she commands demons but is later surprised to find out that they are living inside of her.

Who’s to say that evil world leaders DON’T have anything going on in there?  Sort of a little insurance policy to make sure they do as they’re instructed?  Most certainly they are deceived if they use deception.  Deceitful agendas from outside the natural realm can easily be sugar-coated and peddled as good intentions.

From what I believe the Spirit has given me understanding, it seems to me that it's a matter of a sliding scale of sorts. Remember that if you offend in one point, your guilty of all, right? So that means there is no sin greater than another, other than the "sin unto death". If one steals,htey are guilty of murder, etc., which by the law the guilty are worthy of death. This I believe means that there will be different "levels" of sin, evil from the unbelieving, but it is their unbelief that is their sin. What they actually do in the physical world will vary I believe based upon their own delusions of unbelief. Some will think that it is okay for man to tamper with nature because these type unbelievers think there is no god so the universe is just there for the taking so to speak. These I believe tend to be eugenists types, so they end up doing all kinds of evil things to their fellow man because they believe they are "god".

All unbelievers have varing degrees of moral standards, running from virtually no morals at all when compared to the general population, while others do in their own minds all kinds of "good deeds" for humanity all the while they are not so blatant in their evil towards others, such as being a back-stabbing co-worker that looks to get people in trouble because they think it will make themselves look better, for the sole purpose of promotion and recognition which is really a love of money. It's not Pol Pot, but it's still an evil way to treat your fellow man. Others may just be aggressive types that get into fights or rob littlle old ladies. It's all evil, just different manifestations.

Are any of these possessed of demon(s)? I see no reason why not, as scripture clearly mentions many cases of such a thing. I believe it happens to this day, and as times passes and the end gets closer, I believe the evil that people will do and the demons present to stir them up will grow in intensity, so I see an increase in the occult and such in the world, and such things as demon possession.

The devil and his angels run the world. That's what I believe the scriptures say, so it stands to reason that demons are active in the world, busy messing with people, getting humans to not look to God, but to the lusts of the flesh.

People flopping on the floor or dancing in a voodoo ceremony is in part real I believe. I say in part because I know the devil is the father of lies, so some people tend to fake their appearence by claiming something like being possessed or whatever. That too is evil, being deception and fraud against their neighbor. I also think that we see different "levels" of evil from people because God is managing things like with the case of Job.

There are ALOT of Jobs out there. By letter of the law, we are all Job. Each of us in our lives encounter evil of all kinds, some more than others. Job happened to put his faith on God, whereas others put their faith and attention on worldly things because they don't believe. They have no Spirit to walk in the Spirit with. So thereby living under the law, they are subject to the law, which says that he who kills with the sword must die by the sword. The whole "eye for an eye" thing. Some in the world might call it the "law of the jungle". Science calls it a law of physics(3rd law?) such as "for every action ..." It literally is a dog eat dog world.

Telling someone to go f*** themselves is just as evil as theft or murder because it is not of love but hate, literally rendering evil for evil. But I believe the gospel of Christ is that we are to love our neighbors and not render evil for evil seeing that it says believers are no longer under the law but grace.

Demons get people to focus more on things of the flesh, and not the Spirit. And the "works of the flesh..." are many...
(the opposite, walking in the Spirit(charity) which only believers can do, is described in detail in 1 Corinthians 13) Unbelievers may have "a form of godliness", but that doesn't mean it's of the Holy Ghost, it just means it was an act they did with gain in mind rather than expecting nothing in return which is true charity)

16   [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 
17   For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 
18   But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 
19   Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 
20   Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 
21   Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 
22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
23   Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 
24   And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 
25   If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
26   Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. 
Galatians 5:16-26 (KJB)

[tennis shoe]

From what I believe the Spirit has given me understanding, it seems to me that it's a matter of a sliding scale of sorts. Remember that if you offend in one point, your guilty of all, right? So that means there is no sin greater than another, other than the "sin unto death". If one steals,htey are guilty of murder, etc., which by the law the guilty are worthy of death. This I believe means that there will be different "levels" of sin, evil from the unbelieving, but it is their unbelief that is their sin. What they actually do in the physical world will vary I believe based upon their own delusions of unbelief.

This got me thinking about “levels” of sin.  In this passage, Jesus clearly recognizes the world command structure and holds the highest levels accountable.  I see more people within the world system desiring authority while avoiding responsibility.  This emanates from the top of the pyramid.  GWB with the “bad apples” comment for example.

Jn 19:10-12

10  Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11  Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12  And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him:

2 Th 2:8-12

8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

It’s not done yet.  I believe the devil has to be given the chance to take his best shot to prove his point, that he can be like god.   

10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This identifies why someone is easily deceived/deluded.  This also confirms motive as being more important than apparent actions.

11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Note that if this happens to someone, they WILL believe the lie.  Nothing on this earth will ever change their minds.  It makes sense to me that if God sent the delusion, only he can remove it.

12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Demons get people to focus more on things of the flesh, and not the Spirit. And the "works of the flesh..." are many...
(the opposite, walking in the Spirit(charity) which only believers can do, is described in detail in 1 Corinthians 13) Unbelievers may have "a form of godliness", but that doesn't mean it's of the Holy Ghost, it just means it was an act they did with gain in mind rather than expecting nothing in return which is true charity)

This explains to me why unbelievers have such a disconnect with believers.  If unbelievers are assuming the goal is gain, then it makes sense that they would evaluate it as an attempt to control them through religion or they would dismiss the believer as having mental issues.

[charrington]

From what I believe the Spirit has given me understanding, it seems to me that it's a matter of a sliding scale of sorts. Remember that if you offend in one point, your guilty of all, right?

So that means there is no sin greater than another, other than the "sin unto death". If one steals,they are guilty of murder, etc., which by the law the guilty are worthy of death. This I believe means that there will be different "levels" of sin, evil from the unbelieving, but it is their unbelief that is their sin. What they actually do in the physical world will vary I believe based upon their own delusions of unbelief. Some will think that it is okay for man to tamper with nature because these type unbelievers think there is no god so the universe is just there for the taking so to speak. These I believe tend to be eugenists types, so they end up doing all kinds of evil things to their fellow man because they believe they are "god".

Or equal to God just as Satan told Adam and Eve they would also be.

All unbelievers have varing degrees of moral standards, running from virtually no morals at all when compared to the general population, while others do in their own minds all kinds of "good deeds" for humanity all the while they are not so blatant in their evil towards others, such as being a back-stabbing co-worker that looks to get people in trouble because they think it will make themselves look better, for the sole purpose of promotion and recognition which is really a love of money. It's not Pol Pot, but it's still an evil way to treat your fellow man. Others may just be aggressive types that get into fights or rob littlle old ladies. It's all evil, just different manifestations.

Are any of these possessed of demon(s)? I see no reason why not, as scripture clearly mentions many cases of such a thing. I believe it happens to this day, and as times passes and the end gets closer, I believe the evil that people will do and the demons present to stir them up will grow in intensity, so I see an increase in the occult and such in the world, and such things as demon possession.

The devil and his angels run the world. That's what I believe the scriptures say, so it stands to reason that demons are active in the world, busy messing with people, getting humans to not look to God, but to the lusts of the flesh.

Take it a step further and realize that this world is nothing more then a visage' created by Satan for the world to be absorbed as "the real world". Everything you do in this world that is presented as the real world - the way things really are, is Satans influence on man from the very beginning of time. It's hard not to do something (if not impossible) in this world that doesn't have Satan's influence in it. Satan makes almost unnoticeable changes in how people view things, so gradually they become acceptable to society. Little by little taking them further and further from God's original purpose without them even noticing it. It's one of his favorite methods and he uses it constantly and through time.

You see it everyday but not from a Scriptural side -- You might see --
The NWO is stripping away your civil rights and sovereignty very slowly a little bit at a time. Satan has been doing that for thousands of years and has done that to many a world power, all of them in fact. That is why you can right fully say "History repeats itself", because thanks to Satan it truly does.

Once you become aware of this fact.. the sheep wake up - Oh? wait a minute .. that's not right -- I'm being controlled by the Governments of the world (which Satan is and has complete control over) and we start the process of waking up.

In the mean time Satan has every red herring there is know to mankind in front of you waiting to keep you from noticing him. It's the Illuminati, no it's the Masons , no it's ZOG etc. Add to that all the distractions he has setup to dumb you down and keep you entertained and it's almost impossible to see whats really happening. Until you read the Bible. Any true student of History needs to read the bible and see for themselves how consistent it is with current and secular history.

But this world is nothing like it should be or will be in the future. Even people that don't support the Bible's beliefs can see that were hundreds of years behind where we should be as a race.

People flopping on the floor or dancing in a voodoo ceremony is in part real I believe. I say in part because I know the devil is the father of lies, so some people tend to fake their appearence by claiming something like being possessed or whatever. That too is evil, being deception and fraud against their neighbor. I also think that we see different "levels" of evil from people because God is managing things like with the case of Job.

There are ALOT of Jobs out there. By letter of the law, we are all Job. Each of us in our lives encounter evil of all kinds, some more than others. Job happened to put his faith on God, whereas others put their faith and attention on worldly things because they don't believe. They have no Spirit to walk in the Spirit with. So thereby living under the law, they are subject to the law, which says that he who kills with the sword must die by the sword. The whole "eye for an eye" thing. Some in the world might call it the "law of the jungle". Science calls it a law of physics(3rd law?) such as "for every action ..." It literally is a dog eat dog world.

Telling someone to go f*** themselves is just as evil as theft or murder because it is not of love but hate, literally rendering evil for evil. But I believe the gospel of Christ is that we are to love our neighbors and not render evil for evil seeing that it says believers are no longer under the law but grace.

Demons get people to focus more on things of the flesh, and not the Spirit. And the "works of the flesh..." are many...
(the opposite, walking in the Spirit(charity) which only believers can do, is described in detail in 1 Corinthians 13) Unbelievers may have "a form of godliness", but that doesn't mean it's of the Holy Ghost, it just means it was an act they did with gain in mind rather than expecting nothing in return which is true charity)

16   [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  
17   For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.  
18   But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.  
19   Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,  
20   Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,  
21   Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  
22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,  
23   Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.  
24   And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.  
25   If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.  
26   Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.  
Galatians 5:16-26 (KJB)

[tennis shoe]

Add to that all the distractions he has setup to dumb you down and keep you entertained and it's almost impossible to see whats really happening. Until you read the Bible. Any true student of History needs to read the bible and see for themselves how consistent it is with current and secular history.

Why do some people read the bible and conclude that it’s rubbish?  Or why do occultists study and use the Bible in their own rituals?  Why do some believe that it’s written by men and not God’s word?

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Mt 16:16-17
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I believe one must be enabled by the Holy Spirit prior to picking up the book.  Long before Jesus Himself spoke to a crowd, the Spirit was at work to enable people to understand what He was talking about.  “He who has an ear, let him hear!” 

This illustrates to me how someone could be standing directly in front of Jesus Christ, listening to him, and even seeing miracles performed, and still not believe that He is who He says He is.

Dok posted the solution to this problem earlier in the thread and I agree.

[independentWV]

There are NO Scriptures that say believers cannot have demons.

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. Luke 7:33

Jesus was constantly speaking to the demons as he drove them out when he cured people. The apostles drove out demons. The Bible speaks of people who were perfectly sane, who Jesus cast spirits of deafness or dumbness, even blindness or infirmities out of (Luke 13:11, Mark 9:25, Matthew 12:22) Therefore, if a person is under the power of a spirit of blindness, they won't see (Matthew 12:22), if they are under the power of a spirit of infirmity, they will have some sort of physical infirmity (Luke 13:11), if they are under the power of a spirit of fear, they will be fearful, or if they are under the power of a spirit of anger, they will have uncontrollable anger. A person can be under the 'influence' of a demon.

Mark 9:17-29 tells us of a story of the disciples trying to cast a demon out of a child. They were unsuccessful, so the boy was brought to Jesus, and He cast it out, but also told us that this kind of demon (a very strong demon) ONLY comes out through prayer and fasting!

Isaiah 53:5, prophecies about some of the things that Jesus will do for us, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Do you think this verse was talking about things that Jesus did for unbelievers?

[Kinpa]

Hey that's an interesting subject Rebelitarian -- they are possessed or at least persuaded.

Let me tell you an interesting bible passage that relates to this.

During Daniels time, he was to be given something special and the angel that was sent to him for that purpose got in a fight with the "Prince of Persia" and had to get help from another angel.

Medo-persia being the world power at that time. The bible points out world powers have demon princes over them is seen from the fact that Persia did; as the Bible records, the demon “prince of the royal realm of Persia” interfered with one of God’s angelic messengers in the days of Daniel.—2 Cor. 4:4; Dan. 10:13.

Every ruler has a demon assigned to him. I think most people have watched the exorcist (or some movie like it) and think that demonic possession is head spinning, foul mouthed  and puking. That rarely is the case.

Most of the time it can be uncontrollable emotional behavior, like crying, tantrums, attempted suicide,
self-mutilation and other violent behavior. Of course there are other strange occurrences that can correspond as well.

prove this without using a reference from the bible? show us the evidence...you state this as a fact, and we know what the bible says on the matter, and therefore the bible is not objective in stating this, so show evidence of this that does not come from the bible, otherwise, state that this is just your OPINION of what the case may be, and understand, that i dont necessarily disagree with you, that isnt the point im making, the point is that i wouldnt say such a thing without making the distinction that this is merely my opinion, and i MAY be right or i MAY be wrong with that conclusion, but you have made no such distinction, you just assume it as fact without any evidence other than some bible passages...i have seen several individuals be literally possessed by evil entities, for get the movies, let's talk about real, actual experience and proofs, do you have any? i do...how do you know what demonic possession CAN be most of the time? i want to hear about your direct experiences with such, not what bible verses have to say on the matter...would you know if a demon came along to trick you?how do you know one hasnt already done so? centuries ago? how would you know? do you have discernment of spirit? tell us what experiences youve had in life giving you such, because you cant get discernment simply from reading the bible, it takes much more than words in a book, and if you disagree, you only prove my point...

[tennis shoe]

Do you think this verse was talking about things that Jesus did for unbelievers?

Yes.  Because being under the influence intentionally distorts perception of who God is.  I suppose one could also break this down to depth of belief as well.

I was once in physical pain for an extended period of time for medical reasons.  An interesting side effect was that I developed tunnel vision and failed to notice obvious things going on around me due to constantly focusing on pain control.  Everybody in the neighborhood could have painted their houses purple and I wouldn’t have noticed

In my case, prior to removal of entities that I thought were just a natural part of me, I understood God/Christ intellectually but it was more of a story to me with a hope that maybe it was true.  I also was unable to read the Bible.  It made me sleepy kind of like trying to read a college textbook.  However, the desire to know whether it was all true or not was growing within me as was the desire to touch the very face of God.

The whole thing didn’t become “real” to me until after the hindrances were removed.  The "becoming real" part is still ongoing. The hindrances were removed after I offered Him my mind, will, and emotions to do with as He saw fit.

[decepticon]

it takes much more than words in a book

not a book, THE book. i could ramble on about spiritual battles to fill up this whole page. including demonic influence/expulsion, but everything i have ever done or learned in life has only strengthened my beliefs in the book. not a word of it has ever been disproven. and its not all magic and fairy tales, there are numerous stories of kings, nations, peoples, historical facts. and not one word shown to be false. all the prophecies that have been fulfilled have been fulfilled to the letter, as we watch the mark of the beast being fulfilled before our own eyes. try to predict something 2000 years in the future 

bottom line...christians don't look to external sources to prove the bible, we look to the bible to prove external events. the bible is the anvil, not the malleable metal. make no mistake, people have tried to hammer the anvil, but it remains unscathed. you want some random persons experiences to validate these things for you ? and ignore the infallible word of the almighty ? you are attempting to forge your sword on a bale of hay. quite frivalous, but maybe you already knew that 

[Kinpa]

not a book, THE book. i could ramble on about spiritual battles to fill up this whole page. including demonic influence/expulsion, but everything i have ever done or learned in life has only strengthened my beliefs in the book. not a word of it has ever been disproven. and its not all magic and fairy tales, there are numerous stories of kings, nations, peoples, historical facts. and not one word shown to be false. all the prophecies that have been fulfilled have been fulfilled to the letter, as we watch the mark of the beast being fulfilled before our own eyes. try to predict something 2000 years in the future 

bottom line...christians don't look to external sources to prove the bible, we look to the bible to prove external events. the bible is the anvil, not the malleable metal. make no mistake, people have tried to hammer the anvil, but it remains unscathed. you want some random persons experiences to validate these things for you ? and ignore the infallible word of the almighty ? you are attempting to forge your sword on a bale of hay. quite frivalous, but maybe you already knew that 

prove what you claim, or likewise, make the distinction that this is your OPINION...

[decepticon]

prove what you claim, or likewise, make the distinction that this is your OPINION...

if there were proof, there would be no faith. you want me to prove things from another dimension with anecdotes from this dimension ? as if our minds could truly comprehend inter-dimensional anamole's ?  ahh how the sword bounces on the hay

see this is where the mind of man ends and the mind of god begins.

[Kilika]

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 (KJB)

[independentWV]

Yes.  Because being under the influence intentionally distorts perception of who God is.  I suppose one could also break this down to depth of belief as well.

I was once in physical pain for an extended period of time for medical reasons.  An interesting side effect was that I developed tunnel vision and failed to notice obvious things going on around me due to constantly focusing on pain control.  Everybody in the neighborhood could have painted their houses purple and I wouldn’t have noticed

In my case, prior to removal of entities that I thought were just a natural part of me, I understood God/Christ intellectually but it was more of a story to me with a hope that maybe it was true.  I also was unable to read the Bible.  It made me sleepy kind of like trying to read a college textbook.  However, the desire to know whether it was all true or not was growing within me as was the desire to touch the very face of God.

The whole thing didn’t become “real” to me until after the hindrances were removed.  The "becoming real" part is still ongoing. The hindrances were removed after I offered Him my mind, will, and emotions to do with as He saw fit.

The Biblical definition of hope is "confident expectation." Hope is a firm assurance regarding things that are unclear and unknown. Hope is a fundamental component of the life of the righteous (Proverbs 23:18.)

Without hope, life loses its meaning (Lamentations 3:18, Job 7:6) and in death there is no hope (Isaiah 38:18, Job 17:15).

Matthew 12:43-45, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."

[Kilgore Trout]

The bible , like all religious texts , is a sign post , a directional clue to God , though too many lose sight of what these signs and "pointers" or directional clues actually point to. Don't mistake any book for the thing it actually points to.

[Kilika]

24   For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?  
25   But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].  
Romans 8:24,25 (KJB)

[decepticon]

The bible , like all religious texts , is a sign post , a directional clue to God , though too many lose sight of what these signs and "pointers" or directional clues actually point to. Don't mistake any book for the thing it actually points to.

so the bible, koran, and satanic bible all point to the same being ?

[Kilgore Trout]

so the bible, koran, and satanic bible all point to the same being ?

The satanic bible was written by vaudvilian clown , and the rest ....YES

[Amos]

The bible , like all religious texts , is a sign post , a directional clue to God , though too many lose sight of what these signs and "pointers" or directional clues actually point to. Don't mistake any book for the thing it actually points to.

Hi Trout,
I see the bible more as a wash basin than a sign post, and is the express image of God, and I agree the it is easy to mistake to what it is when we are looking at what we think it is pointing too.

[decepticon]

The satanic bible was written by vaudvilian clown , and the rest ....YES

ah ta ta !! cannot have it both ways. one could say the bible was written by a vaudvilian of the torah. and the koran as a vaudvilian of the torah as well, or vice versa i'm ignorant to chronological order sometimes.

regardless, all religion is merely conjecture by this thinking, if it all stems from the same fairyland, shouldn't all rules apply equally and universally, as you originally implied ?

seems like if all these religions have the same omnipotent being as their inspiration they would maybe get along a little better ? maybe not mass murder each other ? maybe slow down a little on the human sacrifice ? no ?

[independentWV]

The bible , like all religious texts , is a sign post , a directional clue to God , though too many lose sight of what these signs and "pointers" or directional clues actually point to. Don't mistake any book for the thing it actually points to.

What I see for example is leaders without hope/hope dead intentionally trying to destroy US and yes it is getting 7 times worse. So when hope is dead you see what happens.

I do not consider someone with hope an unbeliever.

[Kilgore Trout]

ah ta ta !! cannot have it both ways. one could say the bible was written by a vaudvilian of the torah. and the koran as a vaudvilian of the torah as well, or vice versa i'm ignorant to chronological order sometimes.

regardless, all religion is merely conjecture by this thinking, if it all stems from the same fairyland, shouldn't all rules apply equally and universally, as you originally implied ?

seems like if all these religions have the same omnipotent being as their inspiration they would maybe get along a little better ? maybe not mass murder each other ? maybe slow down a little on the human sacrifice ? no ?

My point is the Satanic bible is not "divinely inspired" it was written in the 60's by Anton Lavey who admitted he really didn't even believe in "satan".

All of these religions point to "God" , through cultural bias they believe their "God" is somehow different or better than another. You see , no matter what religion people adhere to , the goal is always to please God , or to have union with the divine , or whatever other fancy term you might want to use , they all use mostly the same prejudices and judgments to wrangle in their faithful , and they mostly all describe that one being that every follower of any religion thinks is the one and only God. It matters not , these things are are different cultural roads and traditions in seek of the same entity. Too many people stare at the finger which points rather than what the finger points at.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What I see for example is leaders without hope/hope dead intentionally trying to destroy US and yes it is getting 7 times worse. So when hope is dead you see what happens.

I do not consider someone with hope an unbeliever.

I myself do believe in God , I think my understanding of God tells me that every religion talks of the God I believe in , I have this quote I like :

"Belief in God is faith , belief about God is religion"

I don't think I have my own God , to me every religion is a cultural interpretation of the same entity.

[decepticon]

If all religions are inspired by the same being. why would one religion advocate allowing your enemy to attempt to destroy you and emphasize that you not lift a finger to try to stop them. specifically you should "turn the other cheek" and allow them to abuse you even further still. while other religions advocate anyone who attacks you/your religion should be murdered where they stand by your own hand ? seems like a fundamental differing, no ?

i think one reaction is carnal and the other truly divinely inspired, because it makes no logical sense of course.

[tennis shoe]

The Biblical definition of hope is "confident expectation." Hope is a firm assurance regarding things that are unclear and unknown. Hope is a fundamental component of the life of the righteous (Proverbs 23:18.)

Without hope, life loses its meaning (Lamentations 3:18, Job 7:6) and in death there is no hope (Isaiah 38:18, Job 17:15).

Matthew 12:43-45, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."

My previous “hope” was sort of a human one.  Like living in poverty and hoping, somehow, things will get “better” without knowing how or why.  Perhaps a better term would be “wish”.

As far as the definition being “a firm assurance regarding things that are unclear and unknown” -- Frankly, with me that fluctuates and usually takes a hit when I see debate about the meaning of scripture.  Thus, I must depend on Christ directly to show me what I need to know.  I suppose my hope and assurance is in His faithfulness to do what He said He is going to do.

About the empty house problem – I highly doubt Jesus Christ would have called demons out of people knowing that He was going to make their situation worse.  I do see it as a warning to all would-be exorcists though, such as I've seen on YouTube.  It applies to the person doing the call-out.  If you don’t know what you’re doing, you are causing harm.  If you’re doing it to make yourself look good then that’s an auto-fail and you might end up as one of these guys:

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

There is a time and a place for all things best decided by Him.  How everything occurs is best decided by Him.  There is no room for presumption.  In hindsight, I can track back years of preparation that the Holy Spirit was doing with me just to bring me to that moment in time.  It’s critical that the holes in the soul that used to have things of the world in there be back filled with the things of God

[Kilgore Trout]

If all religions are inspired by the same being. why would one religion advocate allowing your enemy to attempt to destroy you and emphasize that you not lift a finger to try to stop them. specifically you should "turn the other cheek" and allow them to abuse you even further still. while other religions advocate anyone who attacks you/your religion should be murdered where they stand by your own hand ? seems like a fundamental differing, no ?

i think one reaction is carnal and the other truly divinely inspired, because it makes no logical sense of course.

That which advocates the destruction of any of God's children is the influence and bias of man. Bibles and religios texts are attempts by man to quantify the unquantifiable.

[decepticon]

That which advocates the destruction of any of God's children is the influence and bias of man. Bibles and religios texts are attempts by man to quantify the unquantifiable.

ok, i think we're making progress. so back to our analogy, one sign pointing one direction, another sign clearly pointing the other direction. and you say that whoever painted the arrow on the sign pointing in the direction YOU KNOW in your heart to be wrong, was skewed by a bias traveler. fair enough. then surely this sign does not point to the true god, right ? surely you cannot take us as fools and tell us both signs point the same direction, can you ? regardless if the sign was made by man, god, or a man/god mix, the sign is the sign. and it points where it points. and not all signs point the same direction.

[Kilika]

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death." Proverbs 16:25 (KJB)

[Kilgore Trout]

ok, i think we're making progress. so back to our analogy, one sign pointing one direction, another sign clearly pointing the other direction. and you say that whoever painted the arrow on the sign pointing in the direction YOU KNOW in your heart to be wrong, was skewed by a bias traveler. fair enough. then surely this sign does not point to the true god, right ? surely you cannot take us as fools and tell us both signs point the same direction, can you ? regardless if the sign was made by man, god, or a man/god mix, the sign is the sign. and it points where it points. and not all signs point the same direction.

Of course you are not fools , but this is why man should not look to religions and their texts to know God. Like Love God cannot be described adequatly to one who knows not the experience , to read the impressions of others is a far cry from actually having an experience which tells you of the divine force which is God.

No amount of language can describe God or love , to know these things one must experience them for themselves. anything else is relying on the perceptions of others which can be usefull in becoming aware that there is something to experience at all , but it is for the experience one should pray or meditate upon. Since when has it been good enough to take someone elses word for something regarding your own soul..? You should find out for yourself. The paramters set in books are too limiting to the magnificant awakening God allows.

[charrington]

prove this without using a reference from the bible? show us the evidence...you state this as a fact, and we know what the bible says on the matter, and therefore the bible is not objective in stating this, so show evidence of this that does not come from the bible, otherwise, state that this is just your OPINION of what the case may be, and understand, that i dont necessarily disagree with you, that isnt the point im making, the point is that...

So let me get this straight -- Satan who is first mentioned in the Bible (some would say invented in the Bible) ergo the Bible being the foremost document on that subject (Satan) should NOT be used to verify that Satan and Satanic or demonic possession exist and how it manifests itself?


Actually if you look at most of the resources for possession you'll find they are tied to religious artifacts and to religion in general. Why? -- because Satan has to do with Religion and the Bible eh? Those type of sites (aside from the lame cable ghost hunter type shows) are where you'll find most of the demonic reports of possession. So showing evidence that is not of Biblical and religious background is suspect to personal hearsay.

Although most cases of possession involve a single evil spirit, it's possible for a person to be taken over by several spirits simultaneously. In a modern case , a victim spoke in different voices which claimed to be the same demons that had previously possessed Judas Iscariot, Emperor Nero, Adolf Hitler, and several other well-known evildoers. I think we all know what their behavior was like.

There have been modern cases of people exhibiting forms of mental illness that have gone through exorcism and seemingly cured. So you see it is true that demonic possession isn't always head spinning and puking. And it does happen to be pretty obvious to most people that actually read the Bible that world leaders exhibit qualities of Satan - how many times have you heard others say the world has gone mad - just look now at what the TSA is doing. That's not normal thinking ---

There are thousands of them you can Google for yourself and I hope others will do so to... So I wouldn't call it just my opinion - Science will tell you otherwise and if you chose to believe what science offers for it's explanation that's your choice. There is also a difference between Demonic oppression and possession. Look up Demonic oppression and see if you have any of those behaviors.

Here is one I Googled just now that says exactly what I said in my post.
http://fspp.net/warn%20poss.htm

i wouldnt say such a thing without making the distinction that this is merely my opinion,

Laff -- you mean like - saying that homo sapiens and Neanderthal had sex to create Nephilim was a fact?
You've taken it personally that a few of us have pointed out that you are being hypocritical and this is just another way of trying to take the heat off without having to admit to it.

and i MAY be right or i MAY be wrong with that conclusion, but you have made no such distinction, you just assume it as fact without any evidence other than some bible passages...i have seen several individuals be literally possessed by evil entities, for get the movies, let's talk about real, actual experience and proofs, do you have any?

See above

i do...how do you know what demonic possession CAN be most of the time?

Because it's a much written about subject. It's not in hiding you can look it up yourself. Did you think it was a state secret or something?

i want to hear about your direct experiences with such, not what bible verses have to say on the matter...

My direct experience with a demon is that one cooked my mother, her sister (my aunt) and myself breakfast and folded all of our laundry. But again that isn't' a common experience or possession but it was extremely eerie. Most of the ones you read about that catch the Media's attention will be "hollywood" and shock dramatic. Yet if you start looking at search results or read books you'll find there are MANY ways they manifest themselves in others and influence in others.

I also know of a young woman from Ghana in my faith that when she was first approached and as soon as a Bible discussion was begun, she would start weeping. ‘A spirit possessed her, and whenever it did, it made her weep, and any money she happened to have on her vanished.’

Demons are not stupid and it does NOT serve they would exhibit obviously rash behavior when in possession of an authority where in other cases it would serve them better to be flamboyant. They only have to fool people like yourself.

would you know if a demon came along to trick you?

Yes, I would

how do you know one hasnt already done so?

So if you've been reading the bible you'd exactly how they work and what your protection is.

centuries ago? how would you know?

Lets start with the fact that Demons and Satan are biblical creatures - hence if you believe in the existence of Satan and demons then you in essence are saying you believe in at least one aspect of the bible because Satan doesn't exist without the Bible -  To say you believe in Satan and don't believe in God isn't cohesive thinking because God is the inspired author of the Bible. No other doctrine predating the bible uses the translated word Satan. They are eternally connected.

So unless you believe that neither exist and both are "man made" in which case your point is mute, then both God and Satan exist. It would follow then that since we obtained this information about Satan and God from the Bible and and God being the omnipotent being in the cosmos according to the information in the Bible that he would make sure his message was safe from a fallen Angel or Angels for all mankind to benefit from as he promised?

If you compare dates, times, rulers, places, artifacts and any of the details in secular history to the bible it stands up to scrutiny. We've done HUGE posts on this in other threads so I'll not go deep into it here.
There is enough accurate information in the bible to trust it as a book of fact and prophecy that has no comparison. Go and look it up all the work as been done for you.

Either you believe the bible is the word of God or you don't.

do you have discernment of spirit? tell us what experiences youve had in life giving you such, because you cant get discernment simply from reading the bible, it takes much more than words in a book,

Yes, the bible is the key to discernment and is based not on my own human imperfect unreliable understanding but the actual inspired word of God. Fearing God is the start of true wisdom. If you base your wisdom on little voices and self contained experiences there's nothing biblical about it and therefore can't be trusted. More then words in a book and more then words in someones head.

So what exactly was your "discernment" based on again?

and if you disagree, you only prove my point...

If you don't agree with the patriot act you are not a patriot... I think they call that being intellectually dishonest. Don't be an idiot you're not talking to an adolescent.

[charrington]

The bible , like all religious texts , is a sign post , a directional clue to God , though too many lose sight of what these signs and "pointers" or directional clues actually point to. Don't mistake any book for the thing it actually points to.

Some don't use any signs at all and paint their own. How lost is that?

[lamourlady]

There are NO Scriptures that say believers cannot have demons.

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. Luke 7:33

Jesus was constantly speaking to the demons as he drove them out when he cured people. The apostles drove out demons. The Bible speaks of people who were perfectly sane, who Jesus cast spirits of deafness or dumbness, even blindness or infirmities out of (Luke 13:11, Mark 9:25, Matthew 12:22) Therefore, if a person is under the power of a spirit of blindness, they won't see (Matthew 12:22), if they are under the power of a spirit of infirmity, they will have some sort of physical infirmity (Luke 13:11), if they are under the power of a spirit of fear, they will be fearful, or if they are under the power of a spirit of anger, they will have uncontrollable anger. A person can be under the 'influence' of a demon.

Mark 9:17-29 tells us of a story of the disciples trying to cast a demon out of a child. They were unsuccessful, so the boy was brought to Jesus, and He cast it out, but also told us that this kind of demon (a very strong demon) ONLY comes out through prayer and fasting!

Isaiah 53:5, prophecies about some of the things that Jesus will do for us, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Do you think this verse was talking about things that Jesus did for unbelievers?

Interesting question, IndependentWV.  I'd have to say that it would be highly impossible for a believer to be possessed for they have the Holy Spirit living within them.  There are many scriptures which deal with this in that you cannot bow down to both, you are either a believer or not.  Both cannot occupy the soul of a person.  Besides, a believing Christian is told that it is forbidden to dabble in anything that deals with demons, therefore anyone dabbling more than likely isn't a believer.  BUT, I do believe that even Christians are hounded by demons.  I mean what good is there to hound those who already deny Jesus Christ, other than to do the demons bidding? 

1 Corinthians 10:21 (King James Version)

 21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Peter 5:8 (King James Version)

 8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

[Kilgore Trout]

Some don't use any signs at all and paint their own. How lost is that?

You certainly couldn't say with any amount of validity. You apply the words of others as a surrogate for true experience. As I've written , that might be useful to become aware of the fact that their is something to experience , but it is not meant to be in place of personal spiritual communion.

[lamourlady]

prove this without using a reference from the bible? show us the evidence...you state this as a fact, and we know what the bible says on the matter, and therefore the bible is not objective in stating this, so show evidence of this that does not come from the bible, otherwise, state that this is just your OPINION of what the case may be, and understand, that i dont necessarily disagree with you, that isnt the point im making, the point is that i wouldnt say such a thing without making the distinction that this is merely my opinion, and i MAY be right or i MAY be wrong with that conclusion, but you have made no such distinction, you just assume it as fact without any evidence other than some bible passages...i have seen several individuals be literally possessed by evil entities, for get the movies, let's talk about real, actual experience and proofs, do you have any? i do...how do you know what demonic possession CAN be most of the time? i want to hear about your direct experiences with such, not what bible verses have to say on the matter...would you know if a demon came along to trick you?how do you know one hasnt already done so? centuries ago? how would you know? do you have discernment of spirit? tell us what experiences youve had in life giving you such, because you cant get discernment simply from reading the bible, it takes much more than words in a book, and if you disagree, you only prove my point...

Kinpa, the Bible is a book of history, just as any other history book.  That would be like asking you to prove any one point in history without using any written word.  How is that possible for anyone?  It is a ridiculous request.  Anything in the past has already happened, therefore NONE of us was there to be a witness and must rely on the word of other men.  This is true with anything really, unless you personally were there.  Do we then deny everything we haven't been personally involved in?  Do we deny the whole of human history then because you or I cannot prove it with material evidence or personal experience?

[Kilika]

That's just his juvenile way of rejecting the Word of God.


"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48 (KJB)

[lamourlady]

That's just his juvenile way of rejecting the Word of God.


"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48 (KJB)

It is easier to attack another's personal opinion than the power within the Word of God; of course they don't want us to use it.

[charrington]

There are NO Scriptures that say believers cannot have demons.

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. Luke 7:33

AFTER mentioning the virtues of John the Baptizer, Jesus turned attention to the proud, fickle people who are around him. “This generation,” he declares, “is like young children sitting in the marketplaces who cry out to their playmates, saying, ‘We played the flute for you, but you did not dance; we wailed, but you did not beat yourselves in grief.’”

What does Jesus mean? He explains: “John came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, ‘He has a demon’; the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, ‘Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’”

His point was that John had a demon? Not ... but that people accused him of it wrongly.

It's possible that those of faith have had a demon in them and expelled or not to say they can't get them - but John wasn't one of them. And of course they do and will attack God's people "Demonic Oppression" and that will indeed change their behavior.  

Just to be clear.

Jesus was constantly speaking to the demons as he drove them out when he cured people. The apostles drove out demons. The Bible speaks of people who were perfectly sane, who Jesus cast spirits of deafness or dumbness, even blindness or infirmities out of (Luke 13:11, Mark 9:25, Matthew 12:22) Therefore, if a person is under the power of a spirit of blindness, they won't see (Matthew 12:22), if they are under the power of a spirit of infirmity, they will have some sort of physical infirmity (Luke 13:11), if they are under the power of a spirit of fear, they will be fearful, or if they are under the power of a spirit of anger, they will have uncontrollable anger. A person can be under the 'influence' of a demon.

Mark 9:17-29 tells us of a story of the disciples trying to cast a demon out of a child. They were unsuccessful, so the boy was brought to Jesus, and He cast it out, but also told us that this kind of demon (a very strong demon) ONLY comes out through prayer and fasting!


Isaiah 53:5, prophecies about some of the things that Jesus will do for us, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Do you think this verse was talking about things that Jesus did for unbelievers?

[charrington]

bottom line...christians don't look to external sources to prove the bible, we look to the bible to prove external events. the bible is the anvil, not the malleable metal. make no mistake, people have tried to hammer the anvil, but it remains unscathed. you want some random persons experiences to validate these things for you ? and ignore the infallible word of the almighty ? you are attempting to forge your sword on a bale of hay. quite frivalous, but maybe you already knew that 

Bravo ...

[Kilgore Trout]

It is easier to attack another's personal opinion than the power within the Word of God; of course they don't want us to use it.

There is no power for me in the words in a book , use it away , it doesn't even pass it's own tests. The bible is a game of "telephone" , speaking of juvenile.

I wonder why Christians don't believe one when they tell them they are a child of God , Jesus rejected much of the "laws" of the jews too , it is the same today , and Christians are the persecurtors of God's children , by insisting that they adhere to established "law" , too many of you have nothing but law and not any of the spirit.