SHITEGEIST 3: THE T[H]URD BOWEL MOVEMENT | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011

[lamourlady]

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/the-venus-project-is-not-just-non-profit/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L_er5qQP7mI

Scam artist.

Yep!

[citizenx]

Oh, God.

Becuase the first two left so many unanswered questions.

(They really did.)

[mr anderson]

why hasn't this movie been posted yet?

It's free online Jan 25th.

[carlee]

http://julezedward.com/2011/01/20/zeitgeist-moving-forward-movie-review/comment-page-1/#comment-783 here is a movie review

[mr anderson]

It's free online Jan 25th.

Streaming Jan 25th.

Online version delayed till Feb 7. 

[chrisfromchi]

found it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/911travistruth

1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlSK5XPrGZQ
2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uumu101R8kY
3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3nnT2DujII
4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUTPBgfB3k
5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRqZxLTEo4o
6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jChqiea1hjg
7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0eSoJyc1tg
8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MDy9tucoms
9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRQ9oSESaAA
10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sP8GmDCmEc
11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY1V3Og4zg8

[mr anderson]

Full Version -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR40w23p7Dc

All the Z-Troopers whining that it's not released "Officially, take it down". 

[chrisfromchi]

All the Z-Troopers whining that it's not released "Officially, take it down". 

V > Z

[mr anderson]

Full Version -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR40w23p7Dc

All the Z-Troopers whining that it's not released "Officially, take it down". 

Well Heir Joseph has complained to Youtube and they have complied swiftly.

Here's the torrent of the taken down documentary - http://onebigtorrent.org/torrents/10548/Zeitgeist-III--Moving-Forward--2011-mp4

[mr anderson]

Versions still up;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T3UVa7GjPU | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u31V1lE5x8Y

Update:
It will be a number of more hours. Render issues. Just check back to zeitgeistmovingfroward.com
Since the wrong version is now everywhere I'm done trying to stop it.
So much for trying to get a real statistical sense of the release online
or getting a cleaner, color corrected, proofed version online.
Peter

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=313474&limit=10&limitstart=20#313554

[Dok]

anyone watch it yet? I wont have time until next week.

[mr anderson]

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=313474&limit=10&limitstart=140#313738

Hi, I am G00dy317- the guy who uploaded the leak on Youtube. Immediately after I watched it I thought I would share it and the best place was to go on Youtube as the majority of people post the zeitgeist videos there... I mean there are far so many duplications I didn't think this theatrical release would even matter as it was only being uploaded 12 hours prior the "date of release".

People were so much concerned as to the views it would get on the "official" youtube page, rather than the message of the film. I was bombarded with absurd messages and comments posted on my youtube channel, calling me names... And these are the same people who follow this movement and want to get the message out there ? with what threats ? name calling ?

No one directed me to this forum, I have just come to know this link via facebook. If I had known the theatrical release was violating copyrights online, I wouldn't have uploaded to youtube as my channel was given 2 strikes before ( posting personal videos with "music that is copyrighted" ) I wouldn't have let my 4 year account vanish into thin air.

I did not mean any disrespect to JP or anyone out there. I wanted people to watch it and so I shared it amongst friends and family on facebook & twitter.

Only to find out, hours later they will all start questioning as to why the video was removed. So I received an email from Youtube :

YouTube account G00DY317 has been terminated because we received multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement from claimants including:

* PETER JOSEPH/ GENTLE MACHINE PRODUCTIONS

Just for trying to get the message accross, I get this. I sure hope people see this before posting it on youtube... and people are still threatening to take legal action to anyone who opposes this.

What a disappointment this has created.

Perhaps a simple note at www.zeitgeistmovie.com with a message saying do not post the theatrical release would have been a great help for us all who tried to share this. JP knew about the leak, why couldn't anyone update the site and have people approach any uploader out there with a decent manner ?

People only worrying about views ? if views is what you seek... make donations to have this as an AD on google, or be featured on youtube etc etc.
Reality, Justin Biever gets more views and people are far more concerned with entertaining than what's really going on in this world.

Theatrical release leaked or not, people would have still watched the complete internet release REGARDLESS.... there would have been still your precious views count.

After all these copyrights reports and not allowing people to watch the theatrical release for free online (even when mentioned before that some places they got to see it for free or a donation) I have changed my mind about this zeitgeist group... there is something fishy going on here.

But then again I am just one person nobody would care about, and possibly would be banned from here as well.

Anyways, time to start off again from the beginning. Hopefully I will avoid these sort of negativity that goes around the world and keep on smiling.
Just my 2 cents.

[chrisfromchi]

anyone watch it yet? I wont have time until next week.

i did...its was preachy and PJ narration gets really kinda college knowitall at some points.
 i could go more into it, but it doesn't grab the viewer like the first one did.

[sharpsteve]

ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

This is the Official Online (Youtube) Release of "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward"

[Dok]

I have noticed that around 7 and a half minutes into it, they show Nazi tanks fighting. On these tanks they ahve the swastika. The only problem is it is a left hand swastika and the germans used the right hand. The left hand is used by esoteric groups and the theosophical society. hmmmm... have to find some other gems.

[sharpsteve]

I have noticed that around 7 and a half minutes into it, they show Nazi tanks fighting. On these tanks they ahve the swastika. The only problem is it is a left hand swastika and the germans used the right hand. The left hand is used by esoteric groups and the theosophical society. hmmmm... have to find some other gems.

Sounds like someone flipped the footage.

[charrington]

Sounds like someone flipped the footage.

That's what I thought also. I think it raises more questions then it answers. Devalues Governmental change, involvement and crisis way too much. But it is interesting.

[Dok]

Sounds like someone flipped the footage.

Doubt it, it is probably intentional.

[lovkarpin]

I saw the theatrical version last night and it must be said that it appears like the Zeitgeist movement most important "development" it took from its
previous films is the notion that there is NO conspiracy. (a news article about a Peter Joseph interview that denies government involvement in 9/11 comes to mind...)
Its not the government's fault, its not the banker's fault, its not human nature and its not even a "secret cabal"'s fault.
so what is the cause of all the wrongs in the world today? It is the Socioeconomic foundations of the world.
This is almost a direct quote from Peter Joseph somewhere halfway through the movie, but since i don't have the movie in front of me it is not 100% word by word.

Then Peter Joseph goes to examine what can solve all the problems in a very short and cynic segment.
Politics? since republicans and democrats didnt help us so far, politics wont help us.
Religion? he says he looked through the holy book (animation of a bible opening) and he again cynically saying that no answer can be found in religion.
Than whats left? Science. through science we can calculate all humanity's needs and through the famous resource based economy we will realize that private
property and ownership is a perversion, egoistical and is harmful to the environment. There is a short segment where he explains why if you need a car for
45mins everyday it does not make sense that you would own one. We need a computerized system that will maximize our efficiency in resources and only this
will redeem us from the misery of our world today.

But besides the Cybernetic propaganda which is prevalent in healthy doses during the entire second part of the film there are few very wrong conclusions
Peter Joseph reaches, and with those false conclusions he basically sets the rational for his cybernetic fantasy land.
The main false conclusion I noticed is that MONEY IS BAD. He doesn't say it directly but he doesn't have to, there are many "dramatized segments" (don't
really know how to call those, since characters are played by really bad actors, and there's dramatic music in the background) especially in the final part
of the film where people literally throw money in the garbage.
He reaches the conclusion that Money is bad from looking at very specific facts. First the monetary system, Money is debt, all money must be borrowed from
a banking cartel with interest. And that's that, Than he looks at John Locke's and Adam smith's view of the economy mainly Austrian school thinkers, he is
spending some time joking about the "invisible hand" of the market that will fix things when the time is right. and basically leaves it at that.
By combining the monetary theory of debt based money, and the economic philosophy of the Austrian school. he proves that money is bad.
What he does here is basically dumbing down his viewers since he presents the facts that: money can only be created as debt, and economic philosophy can
only be derived from the Austrian school economics.

Much more can and will be said about this film, but my personal feeling is that it really is a step down from the previous films.
Mainly in the aspect of presenting information in an easy to digest and introductory manner. What i mean is that if in the previous films
he illustrates (using motion graphics and other methods) information for example about how all religious beliefs are derived from astrology (I know that this has been
debunked like 1000 times but you must admit that the zeitgeist films explained that false notion in a pretty convincing manner as long as you don't really
check the facts behind it) or for example how it explained the federal reserve system, how it explained the time lines of 9/11 etc.
in Zeitgeist 3 it is mainly a series of long interviews in a very scientific tone. Explaining to the viewer very scientifically about genetics and human
and social behavior. It scientifically explains the limited resources the planet has, peak oil included, and how irresponsible it is to not take all those finite resources into account when calculating that ultimate social structure for humanity.

Still a very important film to watch in order understand why Peter Joseph rhetoric of his utopian heaven are fundamentally wrong, and his method of dripping a
little bit of truth in every big lie, which seems to be a course of action of many NWO propaganda outlets.

[Aden]

I was very surprised how badly made this film is in every way.  From the corny mock-society with bad actors, the half-assed interviews that say nothing, the unintentionally condescending pseudo-intellectual tone throughout, to the immature jabs at perceived detractors.

The indisputable low point...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKDgmtKfPA&t=1m5s

I want to note that Max Kaiser and Michael Rupert are the only big names featured in the film.  To me, both are 'NWO infiltrators', witting or unwitting.  I'm sure some will recoil at the thought, but I'm confident in my analysis.

It seems like Peter saw momentum had been lost in his movement and just gave up halfway through the making of the film.  And so it ends.

[Michal Ptacnik]

Those of you who believe that a market economy works do not understand that the very fact things like NWO and social-capitalism of the EU exist prove that the market economy does not work. It has degenerated by coagulation of power and resource and is rapidly speeding towards something else; and it will obviously always degenerate thus, or be held forcibly in place, in which case it will cease to be a market economy.
Joseph's insights are rational, and the points he brings about cyclical consumption and profiteering on social factors that would otherwise be unfavorable for the people are quite remarkable. Yes, he is a new ager and not a fundamentalist Christian so I can expect oposition from that angle, but what would you want to have? A world of mandatory fundamental Christianity? Can not a non Christian engage in an activity to which a Christian should be at least indifferent towards, e.g. making this world a better place? A non Christian has nothing else but what is here and now, even according to your doctrines, so isn't that only natural? And if the ZTM triumphed, it would destroy the NWO; it would not be a utopia and it could later on degenerate, but that's the way of all worldly things, and those people do know it.

They never claimed their "tower of Babel" ever could, or even should, raise up to Heaven. That is, they don't claim to be creating a perfect utopia without God, they just want to create a world that is actually a little less insane and a little more livable; yes, they don't care much about the Bible, but does the current system care? Did any system, ever, really care about these things? And can it? Here, it is always gray, never white, and sometimes pitch black.. to an extend they aim for the impossible, but they try to fall short of that goal in a controlled manner, so that a movement forward is achieved.

I've seen people who claim that the more hellish this planet is, the better for the souls since they can see that the here and now is worthless and can orient themselves on God. There is some wisdom in it, but you really can not think about divine matters very much, at least most of us can't, if we are starving to death or if we worry about surviving in a country ruled by a brutal dictator. So why would they be your enemies?

You might point at their anti-religion mentality, but in that case, I have news for you (for Dok, and Leo, etc.): You already pretty much fill the definition of being adherents of a "spirituality" and not religion. You are different in doctrines from those truly alternative ones, but you do take it seriously, on a personal level, and do not join big groups or accept big doctrines. You even advocate freedom of thought, to a certain extent, and it is much better than what goes in Catholicism and other religions that would probably have a problem in a ZTM world. If the ZTM inspired government was to be rational in this respect, you would be allowed to worship and evangelise in peace in a world full of new agers (and not lukewarm church robots) and in such a world, if all that is New Age is demonic, you would very easily demonstrate the truth of your Christianity by giving deliverance, etc. I don't think you would be much more worse off than under the current system of 501c3 and other nonsense that goes around.

So let's have at it. If the system looked like it claims to look like in future, it would be a minimal government technocracy, based on rational principles and control of resources, but not of the people. Yes, you would lose some freedoms, but you would gain others which you had never even thought you could have in here; and it would be much less belligerent. At worse, it would end up as a rather effective socialism like structure, but still better than the kleptocracy into which we are rapidly sliding. At worst, well, it would end up like what the current "at worst" would look like. The issue is, aren't those people entitled to try to follow their hopes? Their good is worldly and limited, but it is much better than apathy, no? You can point out that they are actually aiming too low, but that's the only problem I'd have with them. And even the Bible hints at the fact that some people simply are not "chosen," as Jesus (or was it Paul?) would put it. "Many are called, few are chosen." That even means some are not "called" at all! Let those people built what they can built, if for them, the best they can think of is a finite, local "paradise," at least in so far. They might awaken later, but not if you bible bash them out of their dreams into stupor.

[Michal Ptacnik]

As for "technocracy" not being a swear word but rather a good thing, see one of my older posts. In short, technocracy aims at the rule of reason and facts, at objectivising rule, whereas the current republics are largely a rule by fiat. Which is the more corrupt system, the peer review of objective research or the current politicking? The latter is the very definition of corruption made manifest, IMO, and whereas the former is not perfect either, it is still the better of the two rotten variants.

[mr anderson]

As for "technocracy" not being a swear word but rather a good thing, see one of my older posts. In short, technocracy aims at the rule of reason and facts, at objectivising rule, whereas the current republics are largely a rule by fiat. Which is the more corrupt system, the peer review of objective research or the current politicking? The latter is the very definition of corruption made manifest, IMO, and whereas the former is not perfect either, it is still the better of the two rotten variants.

Zbigniew Brzezinski - Between two ages: America's role in the technetronic era
http://www.takeoverworld.info/Zbigniew_Brzezinski__Between_Two_Ages.pdf

[Michal Ptacnik]

His is one view on technocracy. That does not make the entire idea bad. Hitler did (well, actually he most likely did not but for the sake of the popular argument) believe in Theosophy, does that make Theosophy itself evil? If Theosophy is evil, and to determine the facticity of the statement, you have to look at the tenets and examine them, see if they are evil, and not to look at one deranged man who might have believed in some of the tenets, of course twisted on the way through his evil mind, and throw the baby with the bathwater.

I am pointing out that technocracy uses as it's core mechanics a process that seems to be a bit less corruptible and a lot more up to date than the current system of administration. That is all. You point that these ideas can be twisted, well, of course, they can, have been and will be misused, just as any ideas. Just as politics now swiftly lead us to someplace where we do not want to be. Your argument could be turned on it's head and I could say that there were in history very evil people that came to power predominantly through political measures and used these measures to enslave the populace.

[Michal Ptacnik]

+1000 to the last part, about motivation. That's why I like Zeitgeist. And also the justice part. Obviously there is some choice but most of it is environment.

[Djævlen]

WOW MP, you said it better than Peter Joseph himself. Very well written response. I'm still watching it, the first 20-30 min or so about societal imprints on the human organism in development vs genetic disposition is something I think we can all agree on (gets a bit into eugenics as well).

[tritonman]

I saw the theatrical version last night and it must be said that it appears like the Zeitgeist movement most important "development" it took from its
previous films is the notion that there is NO conspiracy. (a news article about a Peter Joseph interview that denies government involvement in 9/11 comes to mind...)
Its not the government's fault, its not the banker's fault, its not human nature and its not even a "secret cabal"'s fault.
so what is the cause of all the wrongs in the world today? It is the Socioeconomic foundations of the world.
This is almost a direct quote from Peter Joseph somewhere halfway through the movie, but since i don't have the movie in front of me it is not 100% word by word.

Then Peter Joseph goes to examine what can solve all the problems in a very short and cynic segment.
Politics? since republicans and democrats didnt help us so far, politics wont help us.
Religion? he says he looked through the holy book (animation of a bible opening) and he again cynically saying that no answer can be found in religion.
Than whats left? Science. through science we can calculate all humanity's needs and through the famous resource based economy we will realize that private
property and ownership is a perversion, egoistical and is harmful to the environment. There is a short segment where he explains why if you need a car for
45mins everyday it does not make sense that you would own one. We need a computerized system that will maximize our efficiency in resources and only this
will redeem us from the misery of our world today.

But besides the Cybernetic propaganda which is prevalent in healthy doses during the entire second part of the film there are few very wrong conclusions
Peter Joseph reaches, and with those false conclusions he basically sets the rational for his cybernetic fantasy land.
The main false conclusion I noticed is that MONEY IS BAD. He doesn't say it directly but he doesn't have to, there are many "dramatized segments" (don't
really know how to call those, since characters are played by really bad actors, and there's dramatic music in the background) especially in the final part
of the film where people literally throw money in the garbage.
He reaches the conclusion that Money is bad from looking at very specific facts. First the monetary system, Money is debt, all money must be borrowed from
a banking cartel with interest. And that's that, Than he looks at John Locke's and Adam smith's view of the economy mainly Austrian school thinkers, he is
spending some time joking about the "invisible hand" of the market that will fix things when the time is right. and basically leaves it at that.
By combining the monetary theory of debt based money, and the economic philosophy of the Austrian school. he proves that money is bad.
What he does here is basically dumbing down his viewers since he presents the facts that: money can only be created as debt, and economic philosophy can
only be derived from the Austrian school economics.

Much more can and will be said about this film, but my personal feeling is that it really is a step down from the previous films.
Mainly in the aspect of presenting information in an easy to digest and introductory manner. What i mean is that if in the previous films
he illustrates (using motion graphics and other methods) information for example about how all religious beliefs are derived from astrology (I know that this has been
debunked like 1000 times but you must admit that the zeitgeist films explained that false notion in a pretty convincing manner as long as you don't really
check the facts behind it) or for example how it explained the federal reserve system, how it explained the time lines of 9/11 etc.
in Zeitgeist 3 it is mainly a series of long interviews in a very scientific tone. Explaining to the viewer very scientifically about genetics and human
and social behavior. It scientifically explains the limited resources the planet has, peak oil included, and how irresponsible it is to not take all those finite resources into account when calculating that ultimate social structure for humanity.

Still a very important film to watch in order understand why Peter Joseph rhetoric of his utopian heaven are fundamentally wrong, and his method of dripping a
little bit of truth in every big lie, which seems to be a course of action of many NWO propaganda outlets.

You saw the same film that I saw and did a very good job of describing it . 

[agentbluescreen]

Thanks Freeski!

Ok. As we all know, Bush is NOT a Christian. He's a damned liar. Christianity specifically warns against and decries liars and lying. Politicians and everyone else who have control over policies, their issue is that they lie, not what religion they claim to practice. I'll take an honest muslim or hare krishna guy over a lying christian anyday. Everytime. In fact I'd say that most major religions decry lies and liars. As to the folks that they dupe, well they should have a little more integrity and not just follow blindly. What would Jesus do, indeed? Jesus would have exposed the liars and corrupt bankers, as he did, and that's why they killed him.

I sort of came to this conclusion after reading Sun Tzu's "Art of War", where he states that the heart of warfare is deception. I sort of concluded after that that everyone who is lying to me is actively waging war on me and trying to steal my favor or resources. It's true. I even sort of suspect that most if not all political systems and idealogies would probably work just fine if you could eliminate corruption, and more specifially, lies. Really there can be no corruption without lies, since the criminals would be detected and presumably brought to justice almost immediately. I also suspect that's why Lucifer is referred to as "The Lord of Lies".

Just because George W. Bush is a damned liar it is unfair to attack all christians. Some are the most delightful, helpful, loving, wonderful folks. Many of them are fighting the New World Order with all they have.

Beware of lies. Be devoted to the TRUTH.

That's the path that leads to Realization, Integrity, Love, and Freedom.

In my humble opinion.

Disagree if you want. You're free to do so.

 

The Ninja warrior fights only that all people should live together in happiness, for that is the only constructive "truth" in this universe.

All established "corporate" religions are fashioned upon lies.

[37]

Man, the Venus Project is the most ridiculous idea ever.

Those cities are such a joke.  How much of Mother Earth is going to be bulldozed flat to allow those machines to start construction?

How many cities will have to be built for 7 billion people?

Between this and the President's train, I can't decide which is the bigger waste of human resource.


Peter Joseph likes to focus on money and the financial collapse as the end of current society.  Michael Ruppert sees Peak Oil, and the eventual end of oil, as the mechanism for societal collapse.  

To me, both of those things are merely symptoms of the true collapse in society...the collapse of the concept of centralization.  We have reached, and surpassed, the limits of the usefulness of this idea.  Every telephone pole along the side of the road is a testament to the wastefulness of centralized energy.  Every empty house in a dead neighborhood is little more than a headstone in a graveyard called Central Banking.  

Corporations are merely a product of this concept and it's no surprise that corps keep merging with the state power...they are twins from the same mother. And, they want the same thing...control.

Fresco and Joseph want you to submit to their computer.  It is going to control you.  You will ask it for permission to have a baby.  If you don't comply, your dome-icile will not have water or electricity and you will not receive food.  I see little difference between this and what the elite want for us.  

Fresco likes to act like he thinks differently, but he seems to think just like Obama...

Obama Makes TSA Joke About Airport Grope Downs At State Of The Union
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGyuvhKQ-HQ


Why is Peter Joseph showing a simulation of a machine building a traditional four walled home?  Fresco talks about domes.  Plus, above ground homes are horribly inefficient.  Homes should be surrounded by ground over three quarters high.  It's more energy efficient.  They should have an atmospheric water generator and produce their own clean water supply.  And, their own wind and solar generators.  Joseph shows wind farms...completely wasteful.  And illustrating he and Fresco's inability to think outside of the concept of centralized control.

They don't want free and independent people.  They want compliant slaves.  Obama wants us to waste money, resources and human energy on a pointless project that would only be used as another control mechanism.  No more interstate, or deciding where you want to go on a whim.  And, the big computer brother will be tracking your travel at all times.

These people are propagandists for the elite.  And, like their masters, they fear free and independent humans.  

Peter Joseph is a talented filmmaker...but his work is little more than propaganda for the Elite vision of the future.

[Polaris]

ZEITGEIST IS COLLECTIVIST BULLSHIT. I will go read Jekyll Island again to reclaim my sanity.

[Polaris]

I am pretty sure Cass Sunstein is behind the zeitgeist movement.

[Djævlen]

I am pretty sure Cass Sunstein is behind the zeitgeist movement.

link? proof? or just the parroted speculation of an Alex Jones groupie?

[Dok]

link? proof? or just the parroted speculation of an Alex Jones groupie?

Top Obama czar: Infiltrate all 'conspiracy theorists'
Presidential adviser wrote about crackdown on expressing opinions

Sunstein also recommended the government send agents to infiltrate "extremists who supply conspiracy theories" to disrupt the efforts of the "extremists" to propagate their theories.


Read more: Top Obama czar: Infiltrate all 'conspiracy theorists' http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=121884#ixzz1CGYd1yBF

[tritonman]

I am pretty sure Cass Sunstein is behind the zeitgeist movement.

It would be interesting to know where their funding comes from I agree.

[lamourlady]

It would be interesting to know where their funding comes from I agree.

Ditto!

[Michal Ptacnik]

Well, yes, yes he does not see beyond control. This is because when too much power can be obtained for too little efford, too much power to wreak havoc, something needs to be kept in check. The current system states that it's the people, Zeitgeist would instead have resources in control and the people would not be kept under it; if the control of the resources was rational and liberal enough, it would be much better than what we are riding into now, don't you think?

[tritonman]

I think we lost you Michal, try re phrasing it?

[Michal Ptacnik]

Alright. When people can easily buy a gun and kill people really en masse, when people can sabotague something electronically and the result would be a loss of wealth and even lives, when society becomes more and more interconnected and "overcrowded" not in the sense of "the planet being too small" but the cities, the society being too tight, then a form of control is needed.

What is the controlled thing is the question here. You can either control people and prevent them from doing something, or you can control the things they do these things with.

This is not only a matter of security but, perhaps more importantly, of resources and their consumption. Under the current system you control people, by alloting them money on certain principles. In RBE you would control the resources directly but the people would be free to do what they would and if they did not behave completely against the system, they would live without poverty. Yes, it can be misused, but so can monetary systems be misused. I find the latter idea, the control of resources, of things, much better than the control of the people or, as it may be now, of their time and energy.

You will find that the "freed" workforce will not be just lazy blobs, as PJ would say, but they would be vibrant with new energy stemming from the fact that they have one more basic need met by the society. The society is a necessary loss of freedom to get something else; I say that now, we give too much freedom for too few goodies. Under RBE, we would give less freedom and get more goodies.

[Michal Ptacnik]

To answer the critique that states that "ZTM does not want free thinking people but compliant slaves," that is a gross misunderstanding; in fact the RBE under the ZTM model could never work with compliant slaves, precisely because slaves work because they have to and so won't do one iota of work unless there is a threat of a whiplash. Today's workers are pretty much slaves by this definition and so we see that if they are not lashed enough, they will have a tendency to compensate with lazyness. But what if you remove the whiplash and leave the people be? They will no longer be slaves.

Yes, there will be a necessity to compell with certain things, certain rules, but rules are in every society; you do not murder, you do not steal; you have to work, now. Under ZTM you will probably not be allowed to hoard obscene ammounts of consumable resources; there will be some items that will not be easilly accessible, such as paintings that will have to have a niche built for their redistribution; though that can be resolved by making them sort of communal. But yes, generally, the people will have to give up the drive to "have" for the freedom of being able to "use." To give up the idea of property for the idea of availability. No real communism ever even dared experiment with that idea, but I find it rather rational; natural communities of man work like that, tribes and so on, the ones that tend to be able to sustain themselves for a very long time.

Beyond that, many of the fears that I see here are pure paranoia and logical fallacies, just as the "it's theosophy so it's evil" chant that goes on here, or even better, the it's theosophy so it's antisemitic so it's evel one. The closest thing to a rational argument I see is that it is prone to abuse; yes, it is because it has not been tried. When it is tried, it will be polished and fitted with respect to this issue so that it is no longer so prone to abuse; or it will die.
I mean, to discard ideas just because they could be abused is to stay in caves, simple as that. You'd be still a british colony if the FFs did think like this "so OK, it would be kinda nice if we could be independent but hey, we might lose our freedoms and madmen can get in power, so let's just keep the king." The same mode of thinking really.

I think I've adressed the fundamental christianity fears further above. Unless they were really biased or co opted, ZTM won't be used to bash you, because it is closer to spirituality than to drone-religion.

[37]

WTF?  Am I the only one that sees that Jacque's designs won't work in the real world?  It's a f**king joke.  They're going to use alternative energy but still centralize and ration it out.  Wind farms?  Useless idea.  Wind generator on your house, excellent idea.


And, who will give the computer the formula for figuring out the carousel "carrying capacity" of the planet?  Jacque?  Al Gore?  Peter Josephus?


Plus, you gotta love how the New Age Drones always have to label opinions they don't agree with as fundamental christian.     Fvcking give me a break.