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iks83
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« Reply #320 on: February 17, 2011, 05:01:49 AM » |
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Let me say it again: Capitalism is just an interim state between one form of feudalism, feudalism proper, and another form of feudalism, which is what you call corporatisim.
Corporatism comes naturally when wealth coagulates in few hands. And that has to happen in free market capitalism. Therefore capitalism contains within itself the seeds of it's destruction. And if you somehow want to stand in the way of this, by protectionism or other methods, you will through socialism come to the very same feudalistic conclusions as before.
Yes it comes naturally in free market capitalism... but only if there are no laws or the laws are selectively enforced. BP is a good example. Massive devestation of the environment which was deliberately caused and they even dumped more poison on it... noone gets in trouble. They say corporations are like persons that have rights... well if a person commits a crime it gets thrown in jail, assets confiscated and for serious stuff that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt then sentenced to death. Oh but not corporations they get just rid of a CEO and then its business as usual. If the law isnt enforced that you will always have a system as we have now no matter if its under communistic rule, fascistsic rule, democratic rule or zeitgeist rule. |
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Novus Ordo
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« Reply #321 on: February 17, 2011, 07:18:40 AM » |
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Tilt that nose up higher.. it only serves to make ZTM advocates reputation as arrogant, narrow-minded, pseudo-intellectual, collectivists with blind obedience to the doctrines of ZTM & VP. If you do read books, documents, whitepapers, articles and reports that are on the 'no-no list', meaning anything outside the accepted doctrines of the ZTM then you'd come to understand how the VP's goals eerily mirror those of the globalists. That does not mean the VP is complicit in the globalists plans but rather that it has the potential to morph into a globalist orientated society through the many methods they use to hijack our society today.
It seems that Michal Ptacnik knows how to communicate without condescension. Give condescension, receive it.
M. Ptnacnik, even though he disagrees with me on my understanding and views on ZTM / VP, has the patience, respect and passion to educate me through polite reasoning.
But hey with all due respect to the reasonable ZTM / VP advocates here - I will not comply nor will you force me or others who choose not to live in this current society nor the Venus Project in it's future hijacked, co-opted technetronic eugenical form.
Be smug and arrogant enough to think that I'll die off and you'll live to see the Venus Project... you'll only witness and feel pain, suffering and death of your fellow man as the system collapses and society turns on itself, totally ignoring and forgetting the 60s throwback to a futuristic society.
I wish no ill-will towards you but what will arise from the ashes of this collapse will not be the Venus Project, it'll be the Georgia Guidestones Project.
Sorry you feel that way, I bow down to your superior condescension. |
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« Reply #322 on: February 17, 2011, 07:20:02 AM » |
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Didn't sound terribly condescending to me...not like when you tried to say I hadn't even watched the movies.  |
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chrisfromchi
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« Reply #323 on: February 17, 2011, 11:54:47 AM » |
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Didn't sound terribly condescending to me...not like when you tried to say I hadn't even watched the movies. qft They are just bitter we don't acquiesce with their cylon tripe. |
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chrisfromchi
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« Reply #325 on: February 17, 2011, 06:27:06 PM » |
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mr anderson
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« Reply #326 on: February 17, 2011, 11:47:16 PM » |
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Tilt that nose up higher.. it only serves to make ZTM advocates reputation as arrogant, narrow-minded, pseudo-intellectual, collectivists with blind obedience to the doctrines of ZTM & VP. If you do read books, documents, whitepapers, articles and reports that are on the 'no-no list', meaning anything outside the accepted doctrines of the ZTM then you'd come to understand how the VP's goals eerily mirror those of the globalists. That does not mean the VP is complicit in the globalists plans but rather that it has the potential to morph into a globalist orientated society through the many methods they use to hijack our society today.
It seems that Michal Ptacnik knows how to communicate without condescension. Give condescension, receive it.
M. Ptnacnik, even though he disagrees with me on my understanding and views on ZTM / VP, has the patience, respect and passion to educate me through polite reasoning.
But hey with all due respect to the reasonable ZTM / VP advocates here - I will not comply nor will you force me or others who choose not to live in this current society nor the Venus Project in it's future hijacked, co-opted technetronic eugenical form.
Be smug and arrogant enough to think that I'll die off and you'll live to see the Venus Project... you'll only witness and feel pain, suffering and death of your fellow man as the system collapses and society turns on itself, totally ignoring and forgetting the 60s throwback to a futuristic society.
I wish no ill-will towards you but what will arise from the ashes of this collapse will not be the Venus Project, it'll be the Georgia Guidestones Project.
Sorry you feel that way, I bow down to your superior condescension.
*shrugs shoulders. I bow down to your superior diversionary skills by making it not so much about the subject matter that is being discussed specifically but making it about me. Of course don't provide constructive criticisms of my observations, create a personal avenue of distraction for me to focus on while you create more and more of them guiding me off the subject matter.  I'm being straight up, no ad-hominems, stereotypes, slurs. Genuine criticisms, observations and predictions dare I say it of a futuristic society & it's advocates (vast in views, philosophy & methods) It means well but may, in the end, lead to unimaginable pain, suffering and bondage. But if you cannot even admit that there's a possibility of the VP being hijacked, co-opted and subjugated into an oppressive technetronic control grid then all the best to you. But I've told you point blank - Do not force me or others, through coercion or violence to accept the VP involuntary if we choose to seek another form of society. I will obviously do likewise. I hold out hope for a VP project that is all that it says it is... Didn't sound terribly condescending to me...not like when you tried to say I hadn't even watched the movies. You mean - The Island, Demolition Man, Brave New World, 1984, Aeon Flux, Equilibrium, THX 1138, They Live, Escape from New York & LA?  All good movies. |
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WeAreChange BrisbaneI hold personal views, beliefs and opinions that do not necessarily reflect the beliefs and opinions of WeAreChange Brisbane as a whole.Our Bitcoin address: 1Fzb4bp48oMr7CFzT3SbkTzKpMSvWW1X1t
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #327 on: February 18, 2011, 01:33:55 AM » |
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This is their greatest problem and I absolutely don't understand why they don't start local. They should be pushed towards changing that policy, and soon. |
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EvadingGrid
Toxophillite
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« Reply #328 on: February 18, 2011, 01:47:41 AM » |
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*shrugs shoulders. I bow down to your superior diversionary skills by making it not so much about the subject matter that is being discussed specifically but making it about me. Of course don't provide constructive criticisms of my observations, create a personal avenue of distraction for me to focus on while you create more and more of them guiding me off the subject matter. I'm being straight up, no ad-hominems, stereotypes, slurs. Genuine criticisms, observations and predictions dare I say it of a futuristic society & it's advocates (vast in views, philosophy & methods) That is one of the classic hallmarks of a Troll ... That is why you are on the receiving end from the Troll Novus Ordo ... As to Novus Ordo, the neo-communist in denial, stop trying to divert onto personalities just because you are getting annihilated in the debate. |
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Dicecube
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« Reply #329 on: March 30, 2011, 03:57:05 AM » |
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I apologize in advance for the bump. It took me awhile to read the whole thread. That's it? No one has addressed the psychological part of the movie! I was wondering if anyone had something to say about all the psychological mumbo jumbo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shS35LO-ubw&feature=related. Sounds like Joseph wants us to submit to generational genetic manipulation once the VP cities are complete. No more addictions because we'll have seratonin-intake-inhibitors, no more work because everything will be run by machines, no more abhorrent behavior (because Peter Joseph says so), and no more child abuse because there's no family. I guess we'll all be bred from test tubes so we have the perfect genetics...Brave New World anyone? |
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tritonman
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« Reply #330 on: March 30, 2011, 04:15:27 AM » |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #331 on: March 30, 2011, 05:39:27 AM » |
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That's it? No one has addressed the psychological part of the movie! I was wondering if anyone had something to say about all the psychological mumbo jumbo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shS35LO-ubw&feature=related. Sounds like Joseph wants us to submit to generational genetic manipulation once the VP cities are complete. No more addictions because we'll have seratonin-intake-inhibitors, no more work because everything will be run by machines, no more abhorrent behavior (because Peter Joseph says so), and no more child abuse because there's no family. I guess we'll all be bred from test tubes so we have the perfect genetics...Brave New World anyone? No one wants to abolish the familly in the ZTM or to make people addicts, on the contrary, the ZTM world would be free of many of the unnatural components of our air and our food. It is not about genetics as much as it is about behavior and the social atmosphere and the way society functions. From my experience as a child I can tell you that if you do not expose a child to a competitive environment, he will have a natural tendency towards cooperation and will consider competition a very strange and in my case even alien and alienating thing indeed. Likewise, if you never expose people to material shortages, they will have little or no tendency towards greed, stealing and all the rest of the junk. The same if you stop the tendency to bombard the people with sex and sexual disfunction and criminality. These all are the fruits of a captialist society, or more broadly, of a competition violence and shortage based one. Remove that and you will have a natural drop in criminality on every scale without an ounce of control directed towards the people, and without having to built one penentiary facility. People are not naturally good, they are naturally, well, natural, but this natural tendency towards mischef and selfishness is not what we see here. Here we see a society that trives on strife, that turns people purposefuly into monsters that they would otherwise not be. That must stop. |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #332 on: March 30, 2011, 06:24:37 AM » |
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While worshipping technology and our ability to use it is dangerous and wrong, ludditism is wrong and shortsighted in turn. ZTM does a remarkable job in trying to achieve a balance between the two. |
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Kilgore Trout
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« Reply #333 on: March 30, 2011, 11:59:27 AM » |
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While worshipping technology and our ability to use it is dangerous and wrong, ludditism is wrong and shortsighted in turn. ZTM does a remarkable job in trying to achieve a balance between the two.
booked for yt link. |
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"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
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iks83
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« Reply #334 on: March 31, 2011, 12:55:37 AM » |
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No one wants to abolish the familly in the ZTM or to make people addicts, on the contrary, the ZTM world would be free of many of the unnatural components of our air and our food.
It is not about genetics as much as it is about behavior and the social atmosphere and the way society functions. From my experience as a child I can tell you that if you do not expose a child to a competitive environment, he will have a natural tendency towards cooperation and will consider competition a very strange and in my case even alien and alienating thing indeed. Likewise, if you never expose people to material shortages, they will have little or no tendency towards greed, stealing and all the rest of the junk. The same if you stop the tendency to bombard the people with sex and sexual disfunction and criminality. These all are the fruits of a captialist society, or more broadly, of a competition violence and shortage based one. Remove that and you will have a natural drop in criminality on every scale without an ounce of control directed towards the people, and without having to built one penentiary facility.
People are not naturally good, they are naturally, well, natural, but this natural tendency towards mischef and selfishness is not what we see here. Here we see a society that trives on strife, that turns people purposefuly into monsters that they would otherwise not be. That must stop.
Yeah in a magical dreamworld that will be the case. As if there absolutely can be no people that are mentally deranged so they never can be greedy or violent or whatever. And for your experience as a child with all the ifs and maybes and perhaps... its just wishful thinking, some theory of yours. And always blame capitalism as if the other systems the world has seen were so much better. Capitalism is no problem in a world where you have human rights and the law is being equally enforced. But we are far from that. We live in a fascist world run by psychopaths (that still would be psychopaths if you dont expose them to a competative environment and no material shortages). Where corporations make the laws, where BP can ruin the gulf, doesnt get into trouble and the people have to pay for the clean up. Where a nuke plant can blow up and the radiated population of japan has to pay for the cleanup. Same with pharmaceuticals. Absolutely no liability. That is not capitalism and a free market in a country where the constitution is the supreme law. I know many want to go back to the constitution... and its getting a bit off topic now... but I say make a new, better constitution with clear lines drawn and a language that absolutely makes sure that anyone who steps over it gets hanged. Like no central bank period. Those who want one and try to get one installed get executed. No corporate lobbying of goverment. Only the people can lobby for something... its usually called protesting, voting, etc. If a corporation breaks something it has to fix it and if it doesnt do that in a timely fashion or the solution is causing even more damage (like corexit) then it will be liquidated and a new company formed with the explicit goal to fix the damage. There can be so much improvement, something the founding fathers never thought of because they had to deal with different problems. |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #335 on: March 31, 2011, 05:07:03 AM » |
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Yeah in a magical dreamworld that will be the case. As if there absolutely can be no people that are mentally deranged so they never can be greedy or violent or whatever. And for your experience as a child with all the ifs and maybes and perhaps... its just wishful thinking, some theory of yours. And always blame capitalism as if the other systems the world has seen were so much better. Capitalism is no problem in a world where you have human rights and the law is being equally enforced. But we are far from that. We live in a fascist world run by psychopaths (that still would be psychopaths if you dont expose them to a competative environment and no material shortages). Where corporations make the laws, where BP can ruin the gulf, doesnt get into trouble and the people have to pay for the clean up. Where a nuke plant can blow up and the radiated population of japan has to pay for the cleanup. Same with pharmaceuticals. Absolutely no liability. That is not capitalism and a free market in a country where the constitution is the supreme law.
I know many want to go back to the constitution... and its getting a bit off topic now... but I say make a new, better constitution with clear lines drawn and a language that absolutely makes sure that anyone who steps over it gets hanged. Like no central bank period. Those who want one and try to get one installed get executed. No corporate lobbying of goverment. Only the people can lobby for something... its usually called protesting, voting, etc. If a corporation breaks something it has to fix it and if it doesnt do that in a timely fashion or the solution is causing even more damage (like corexit) then it will be liquidated and a new company formed with the explicit goal to fix the damage. There can be so much improvement, something the founding fathers never thought of because they had to deal with different problems. There will still be psychopaths and people who commit crimes because we won't ever be able to solve all the criminogenic social factors. Period. This is no magical dreamworld matter, this is returning man to his natural minimum, or so to say, and bursting the bubble of artificially inflated tendencies that the system desires to put in our psyche in order to make us into better consumers. It won't be utopia, but it will be a lot better than what we have now. Capitalism will naturally turn into something like the current system, or some other derived system that you will not like; and that is my problem with capitalism: It is not stable. Power will coagulate in centers and then either the people will try to overthrow it, or not. If they do, but they don't remove the bones of the system, the monetary system, the competition factor, the mentality of shortage, the "bad" type of socialism and fascism will come; if they don't, we're about to see in the near future what will be the result; we use a good name for it: The New World Order. Therefore it is not that I blame capitalism and want some other currently existing system, I blame competition and want a system that does not promote it! For millenia morality guides tried to promote harmony and moderation and now we are promoting competition, selfishness and greed! Any system that works promoting competition (and these other things) is bad; unfortunatelly, you really can not compare anything before 1800s because society was more primitive and more violent, so I think we've never ever had a good system - perhaps the first USA, the USA as the FFs would concieve it ALMOST qualified, but keep in mind that they had slavery, they had rampant poverty, bigotry and other things that we should not try to return to. But the beating heart of the system was just about correct in many ways, they just didn't have the skill and infrastructure to follow the rabbit trail to the logical conclusions. We do. |
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tritonman
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« Reply #336 on: March 31, 2011, 05:10:54 AM » |
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Of course Zager and Evans had it correct, Your fantasy awaits you.  |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #337 on: March 31, 2011, 05:20:15 AM » |
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"Everything you did thing or say is in the pill you took today?" Sounds like the year 2025 more likely, if we continue on the way we are.
You guys don't realize how much stress and drain is this world on the human psyche. Most of my friends are on some kind of pills and when I tried to talk them away from those I did realize that their problems were real and crippling that they could not live normal lives without those pills anymore! This is not because they have "bad genes" (which is btw. what some psychiatrists apparently want them to believe) but because this unnatural moloch we call the society is draining them further and further towards a state of dependency; because that is, ultimatelly, where it wants to have them. Guess what my friends and me have in common? Above average IQ and lack of conformity! Do the math, will you please? In the year 2025 there will be two kinds of people, the "average joe" who is to conformist to care or be influenced, who just accepts what he is told, and people on drugs and "pills," people who would otherwise be able and willing to change something but who are now locked in a private hell of their psyche that refuses to cope with our collective insanity, but that sees no refuge BUT in the pills that "conformize" it!
So don't be telling me 'bout no pills, man, this is not ZTM you are describing, this is this here real world! Comming to your homes in near future!
I see that ZTM has problems, I know that it will probably not be viable with it's all or nothing attitude but it does good job in showing us that the shift has to be TOTAL, not just "a return to the Constitution" or what-ever. That we must do away with blackmail and competition, that we must rationalize and that we have to stop distrusting man's ability to govern himself - even though that ability is by no means an infinite one. And that ludditism sucks. This for me is the message that ZTM should spread.
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LibertyCity
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« Reply #338 on: April 04, 2011, 10:25:01 AM » |
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I think people here critisizing The Venus Project and a Resource Based Economy, besides not grasping what the concept is about on different areas, actually think things will get any better if Ron Paul gets elected for president of the USA next year.
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EvadingGrid
Toxophillite
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« Reply #339 on: April 04, 2011, 11:27:24 AM » |
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I think people here critisizing The Venus Project and a Resource Based Economy, besides not grasping what the concept is about on different areas, actually think things will get any better if Ron Paul gets elected for president of the USA next year.
What is your fear of Ron Paul ? That he would end foreign wars of empire ? That he would restore the constitution ? You got some real problems with your "thinking" . . . |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #340 on: April 04, 2011, 04:55:14 PM » |
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I think he would make some things better... though it would ultimatelly not do nearly as much good as many here expect. The system itself is broken so you can't try to reform it without being really radical, without practically destroying it's heart in the process. You can bypass it though, and that is what ZTM should focus on - to form a new culture amongst the old, so that it would naturally grow and grow as the people living within the old system find out that the new way is a better way. The way ZTM is currently kind of counts in our old world colapsing before it can be implemented.
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Kilgore Trout
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« Reply #341 on: April 04, 2011, 06:12:38 PM » |
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I think he would make some things better... though it would ultimatelly not do nearly as much good as many here expect. The system itself is broken so you can't try to reform it without being really radical, without practically destroying it's heart in the process. You can bypass it though, and that is what ZTM should focus on - to form a new culture amongst the old, so that it would naturally grow and grow as the people living within the old system find out that the new way is a better way. The way ZTM is currently kind of counts in our old world colapsing before it can be implemented.
I think that culture is growing as we type , the more truth that gets out the more people will learn to see through the BS in this cultural siberia and long to create , through their will alone , a new paradigm. |
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"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
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DAVIDE MTL
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« Reply #342 on: April 04, 2011, 07:28:14 PM » |
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I think people here critisizing The Venus Project and a Resource Based Economy, besides not grasping what the concept is about on different areas, actually think things will get any better if Ron Paul gets elected for president of the USA next year.
I don't think you've grasped what's behind the Venus project, Ron Paul will never be president because the powers that be won't let it happen |
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Freeski
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« Reply #343 on: April 04, 2011, 08:14:11 PM » |
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I think people here critisizing The Venus Project and a Resource Based Economy, besides not grasping what the concept is about on different areas, actually think things will get any better if Ron Paul gets elected for president of the USA next year.
What you seek is a planned society, right? So who gets to plan it? |
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"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it." Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #344 on: April 05, 2011, 03:19:24 AM » |
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People cooperating with machines on local level. As we now plan our society through the rigged market games, then it will be through the scientists who've actually studied to qualify and not through businessmen who don't even pretend anymore that they are in it for their own profit. As society is now built on competition, then it will be on cooperation. As now only short term goals matter, then there will be a greater power of the people, and the society will have the ability to set long term goals.
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iks83
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« Reply #345 on: April 05, 2011, 06:07:19 AM » |
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That is wishful thinking BS.
People cooperating with machines? Or cooperating people with machines? Anyways... so if we get rid of the riggend market games then everything should be fine. No need for a new scientific dictatorship. Oh and the half god scientists who have studied and qualified themselfs by themselfs, like all the global warming fanatics, will run everything so much better. Of course they would never do such a thing for their own profit. Nono they are much better people and as we know genius level people never lack anything in the mental department that would be harmful to others... no no no.
This society also isnt build on competition. Competition is a sin... wasnt it Rockefeller who said that? You are not alone with that thinking. The only competition we have is who can better loot the people while gaining as much control over them as possible. Tell me how is it better when scientists run the show or a computer, that has to be programmed by someone who is just as flawed as everyone else. So one day he will activate the backdoor and then there is a new player in town muahahaha. We dont need that to have greater power of the people. All it needs is for the people to get rid of this system we have now and not install a new smooth and shining scientific tyranny in its place.
Seriously your thinking is so narrowminded. Why does society not set long term goals? Governments spend trillions... but on what? Wars, ponzi schemes, eugenics and so on... Why? Cause psychopathic demons are running the show. How does it help when other psychopathic demons run a new version of their slaughterhouse and call it venus project. You really think people want their money spent on wars and wall street and the banker bailouts? Of course not. All we need to do is get rid of those psychopaths. Install a improved constitution that will prevent those bastards from rising up again and the world will be fine. We will have the long term goals and it wont be a silly scientific dictatorship when many died to rid the world of the old one.
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #346 on: April 05, 2011, 06:44:34 AM » |
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This is not a scientific dictatorship, this is a mercantile oligarchy, it has ZERO in common with science. In fact eugenics is also not science, it is an ideology. And IMO NWO has much less in common with eugenics than it has in common with perpetuating the power of those who are currently in power. We don't live in a scientific dictatorship.
Science, true science, is superior to politics in control and in precision. And it is also easier to control than politics by peer review, by expert and popular control. It is superior, pure and simple, because it is less corruptible. You must divorce science from economy and then you get a system as incorruptible as humanly possible. So yes, I would rather be "ruled" (if you can call it that way) by scientists than by people elected by manipulated ballots and supported by oligarchic rulers behind the scenes.
As for competition being a "sin," Rockefeller was right in this one, pure and simple. The clock that stops gets it right two times a day. Being an oligarch does not equate with being always wrong. I would not use the religious terminology, but competition is bad, no question about that.
The world is moving on into an age of greater and greater technical progress and unless there are oligarchs to prevent progress, which there currently are, and no question about that, they ought not to be, we will have to somehow incorporate greater knowledge and technical prowess into our governments. To use technology to the betterment of man. And above all, to realize that we are all brothers and sisters and that we should drop any and all ideologies that separate us artificially and that make us fight each other. Utopia? Perhaps. But I would advocate nothing less.
As for the "new constitution" while competition and market economy is in place, scarcity and stress rules and the laws of nature will in time crown new oligarchs. It is a flawed system, it will degenerate, period.
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Novus Ordo
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« Reply #347 on: April 05, 2011, 06:45:54 AM » |
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"We've arranged a global civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."
"I worry that, especially as the Millennium edges nearer, pseudoscience and superstition will seem year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive. Where have we heard it before? Whenever our ethnic or national prejudices are aroused, in times of scarcity, during challenges to national self-esteem or nerve, when we agonize about our diminished cosmic place and purpose, or when fanaticism is bubbling up around us - then, habits of thought familiar from ages past reach for the controls.
The candle flame gutters. Its little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir."
Carl Sagan
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WakeUpAmerica
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« Reply #349 on: April 06, 2011, 08:44:54 AM » |
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This is not a scientific dictatorship, this is a mercantile oligarchy, it has ZERO in common with science. In fact eugenics is also not science, it is an ideology. And IMO NWO has much less in common with eugenics than it has in common with perpetuating the power of those who are currently in power. We don't live in a scientific dictatorship.
Science, true science, is superior to politics in control and in precision. And it is also easier to control than politics by peer review, by expert and popular control. It is superior, pure and simple, because it is less corruptible. You must divorce science from economy and then you get a system as incorruptible as humanly possible. So yes, I would rather be "ruled" (if you can call it that way) by scientists than by people elected by manipulated ballots and supported by oligarchic rulers behind the scenes.
As for competition being a "sin," Rockefeller was right in this one, pure and simple. The clock that stops gets it right two times a day. Being an oligarch does not equate with being always wrong. I would not use the religious terminology, but competition is bad, no question about that.
The world is moving on into an age of greater and greater technical progress and unless there are oligarchs to prevent progress, which there currently are, and no question about that, they ought not to be, we will have to somehow incorporate greater knowledge and technical prowess into our governments. To use technology to the betterment of man. And above all, to realize that we are all brothers and sisters and that we should drop any and all ideologies that separate us artificially and that make us fight each other. Utopia? Perhaps. But I would advocate nothing less.
As for the "new constitution" while competition and market economy is in place, scarcity and stress rules and the laws of nature will in time crown new oligarchs. It is a flawed system, it will degenerate, period.
You must be trolling. You really think competition is a sin? Also where is this absurd idea of total abundance you have coming from? |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #350 on: April 06, 2011, 01:58:18 PM » |
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We currently have the technology to care for the needs of most people. Competition and the market system, which is another word for institutional blackmail, prevents us from truly organizing our resources on principles of common good. After that, there will be some scarcity and will have to be adressed to, but that will be a very different society, a very different mankind that will be adressing those issues. So no, not total abundance, but that is not necessary.
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EvadingGrid
Toxophillite
Global Moderator
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Posts: 10,704
Rat Catcher
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« Reply #351 on: April 06, 2011, 03:43:11 PM » |
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We currently have the technology to care for the needs of most people. Competition and the market system, which is another word for institutional blackmail, prevents us from truly organizing our resources on principles of common good. After that, there will be some scarcity and will have to be adressed to, but that will be a very different society, a very different mankind that will be adressing those issues. So no, not total abundance, but that is not necessary.
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #352 on: April 07, 2011, 04:34:36 AM » |
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And again, you are mentioning abuse of the system. I wonder where the FFs would be if they had though like this. "Hey George, I think we should stay under the brits." "Why is that, Tom?" "Well, I believe that there could be someone who abuses the newfound freedom. Geez, I think we belong to the cages of taxation and police abuse..."
Nonsense.
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iks83
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« Reply #353 on: April 07, 2011, 11:21:03 PM » |
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And again, you are mentioning abuse of the system. I wonder where the FFs would be if they had though like this. "Hey George, I think we should stay under the brits." "Why is that, Tom?" "Well, I believe that there could be someone who abuses the newfound freedom. Geez, I think we belong to the cages of taxation and police abuse..."
Nonsense.
What a joke. Well the FF tried to create a system with checks and balances so that it wont be that easy to abuse. Also they said right from the start that when their new system stops working for the people then the people should abolish it. You dont hear that kind of talk from the Geister do you? So where are the checks and balances in the Venus Project? Of course the scientists and self proclaimed leaders will check and balance themselfs.... right. Or the super computer that runs everything. Who is deciding who will become leader? I doubt the people cause you cant just let the common prolls decide who rules them... cause they dont know any better. |
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #354 on: April 08, 2011, 01:54:22 AM » |
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The ZTM does not concern itself with checks and balances now because it is concerned with explaining it's economic system. Of course, if it is ever to be applied, it will have to have checks and balances. But without money, checks and balances are rather simple to enact (as a lawyer I sort of... can imagine that), because you basically only work to limit behind-the-scenism and power hunger, and not overt greed. Certainly you will have much lesser people/to/psychopath ratio since the above aforementioned criminogenic factors of stress from competition and of people brainwashed to basically be each other's enemy do not exist.
So if the right people take the idea and expand on it, it will end with more checks and balances than we would have thought possible. If not, it won't exist in the real world.
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jesussdad
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« Reply #355 on: April 14, 2011, 07:24:22 AM » |
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just a quick q for the z's. do you feel we should do something about our corrupt leaders to make them answer for their crimes?
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #356 on: April 14, 2011, 08:48:32 AM » |
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For starters, they should be made leaders no more. I myself don't believe much in worldly justice (I am a lawyer, remember), but if that is what it takes to make them step down, then fine, they should answer for their crimes, though I doubt it would be a standart court. They, after all, most of the time, do not do anything wrong according to the corrupt, imperfect law that they operate under. It would be a Nuremberg. But they definitelly should leave, and with them, the whole system that they were a part of. The Zs are more radical in this than you guys, while you want a "revolution" in the traditional meaning of the word, a return to the better past, we want an evolution towards a new future that will leave the wrongs of the past behind, as much as it will be able to.
So in very short: Yes, prosecute them. Make them leave power, they must have it no more. And ensure the support system is gone so that never can others take their place; ensure there is no more place to take.
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Dicecube
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« Reply #357 on: July 13, 2011, 10:12:08 PM » |
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Since no one has posted in months, I will review.
I'm just sick of all this "If you can't beat em', join em', it's all fictional, nobody runs the world, the elite never do anything wrong, but they don't exist and their books and memoirs don't exist, it's all history and history is bunk so HAIL FORD and JUST DANCE like Lady Gargoyle" culture. How do you expect to beat a system whose roots are burrowed in royalty? How can we possibly come to understand 100% their plans for the world and why would these powerful banking elite would want to listen to anything a few fanatical fifth-columnists have to say? They use you! This isn't just about money, it's about control! Michael Ptacnik, you have no interest in dismantling the system. You want keep it going! Make it 'better' even. How do you know for sure that getting rid of money will solve all the worlds' problems? What is to say that it won't make things worse? Why do you prefer social justice over common-sense morality? Does morality even come into the equation?
Is there a reason we completely block out anyone who speaks with a religious tone? Why do we try so hard to believe good and evil don't exist?
I'm agnostic. I've never read the bible, and I'm just your average joe, but even though Zeitgeist has "Divided us", it has in fact been very educational to me. If it were not for this forum, I would have never have known about Theosophy, Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Jiddu Krishnamurti and especially the awesome "New Age Movement" (Or was it the "Christian Nicean Creed Movement"?) In other words, I think it's healthy to share what we know while at the same time having tolerance for one another. Sometimes you just have to stop and laugh at yourself. It takes alot of patience and I get a few giggles here and there, but bong hits and NaturalReader help me get through all the religious stuff on the ZA forum ^_^. Wasn't there even a communist who made a few long posts? I think the concept of an NWO is quite apparent and even if Peter Joseph and the Zeitgeist movement don't see it in the same light. So why go back to sleep and close the debate here? The ZA forum was 40 pages long and this one's only 9? What happened to Sane, and GeoLibertarian? I wonder what their thoughts are. Should we beat Obama's New International Order, or join it? Step up to the plate!
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Michal Ptacnik
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« Reply #358 on: July 13, 2011, 11:39:51 PM » |
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No. It is in fact you who want to make it better. We want to dismantle it, along with the false divisive "states," with capitalism and with money. Ultimatelly, even with scarcity of the common goods. How can you call us fifth columnists. Is it possible to dismantle the System? Yes, but I don't really think the Z movement will be the vessel, it has too many flaws. But it serves the purpose of formulating that there IS an alternative and that capitalism is NOT a holy cow and The Only Way Humanity Can Manage Stuff. Too few of us are prepared, though, to give up the divisions they have given to us in order to... well, divide us. If I tell here that we should burn those flags they use to enslave us, you are ready to stone me...
When we are ready to give up money, to reconstruct society from bottom up and top to bottom, and to do it in reality, e.g. incrementally, then we have a chance. When youths refuse to join the army/desert en masse, when workers stop going to work that is dehumanizing and wrong, when even rich men refuse to join the system that they grow rich from, then we might have a chance. Or if the system breaks in and of itself somehow. But your way is no way. Making this system work is impossible, it has to go, with it's core of Capitalism. While you do not adress the beating heart of the System, you are not radical enough.
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Femacamper
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« Reply #359 on: July 14, 2011, 07:03:50 AM » |
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Shitegeist, the third bowel movement.
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