How old is the Earth? ( old as dirt of course :-)

[Michal Ptacnik]

its only not a bird by our modern classification. As Fema has already pointed out, in Hebrew the word for bird meant anything with a wing. In the 1600's the word "bird" in English meant- chicken or the young of any fowl, or any flying animal.

So in actuality, the use of the word, as used at the times, is correct.

A bird is a bird...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NW7CZxOxhI

[Femacamper]

There are some who even consider the bird to be an actual dinosaur. According to this view, the bird is an avian dinosaur, and the older dinosaur a nonavian dinosaur.

Is this a bird?

[citizenx]

Bats are dinosaurs now.

I don't want some of you guys teaching my daughter science.

That's all I ask.

(Yes there were dinosaurs and they lived millions of years ago.)

[Femacamper]

(Yes there were dinosaurs and they lived millions of years ago.)

Prove that they lived millions of years ago. Make a time machine. (radiometric dating doesn't suffice)

[citizenx]

Ummm...yeah.  I'll get right on that.

[Femacamper]

Talk is cheap.

[citizenx]

Hey, Rome wasn't built in a day.

(I don't think so.)

[Femacamper]

Hey, Rome wasn't built in a day.

I debunk secular humanists, one brick at a time.

[poncho]

Prove that they lived millions of years ago. Make a time machine. (radiometric dating doesn't suffice)

Prove that what the Bible says is true...

Oh ya, it's a faith thing.

[Femacamper]

Prove that what the Bible says is true...

Oh ya, it's a faith thing.

Here you go.

And here.

And here!

Read those three through solidly, then you won't need to ask anyone that again, ever.

[poncho]

Here you go.

And here.

And here!

Read those three through solidly, then you won't need to ask anyone that again, ever.

I didn't read very far.  Couldn't get past the second paragraph with this bit of untrue text:
"However, Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible."

It slams all other religeons in one fell swoop, then proclaims that the Bible is the proof.  I don't dismiss any religeon so easily.

Instead as an agnostic, I can say that I don't know God.  I don't pretend to understand him/her/it.  He, if he exists is way beyond me.  And it wouldn't surpise me at all if we are just one of trillions of inteligent life forms that he has created, and are far from his favorite.
I'd love for God to manisfest and show himself to me. (Maybe not too )

But under no circumstance, do I belittle anyone's faith, like people who are commited to one religeon have a tendoncy to do other faiths.

So until God shows me the way, I trust in science.  (Besides, I think science is God's way.  It is his rules of the universe.  We are just begining to unlock his most basic fundimental bits of knowledge.)

[Dok]

I didn't read very far.  Couldn't get past the second paragraph with this bit of untrue text:
"However, Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible."

It slams all other religeons in one fell swoop, then proclaims that the Bible is the proof.  I don't dismiss any religeon so easily.

yet you just dismissed the Bible in one fell swoop. You even admit you didnt read barley anything. You let your own prejudice stop you from going any farther. You hit a part that you believe is wrong and stopped, without even seeing if possibly it is you that is wrong. 

So until God shows me the way,

That will never happen as you refuse to even look at what is shown.

[Seraphim]

I didn't read very far.  Couldn't get past the second paragraph with this bit of untrue text:
"However, Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible."

Alright, fair enough. Might I show you something of interest then?

"Then God said to Ezekiel, 'Now lie on your left side for 390 days to show Israel will be punished for 390 years by captivity and doom. Each day you lie there represents a year of punishment ahead for Israel. Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment. Each day will represent one year . . .'" - Eze. 4:4-6

Here, God tells Ezekiel to lie down for 390 days for the crimes of the 10 tribes of Israel, then 40 more days for those of the two tribes of Judah, with each day representing one year of captivity... a total of 430 years against the whole nation of Israel.

In 606 BC, Israel was in captivity in Babylon for 70 years (as prophesied by Jeremiah prior to captivity). So, 430 - 70 = 360 years remaining of "captivity and doom". Now, all through Leviticus ch. 26, God warns Israel "If you screw up, you'll see some discipline that'll lead you back the right way. But, if after all those punishments, you *still* don't obey, then I will punish you seven times more, and by scattering your people throughout all the other nations".

Now, apply that 7x factor in and it becomes 2,520 years. The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' of the Jewish hybrid Lunar-Solar calendar on schedule.  So, let's convert this prophecy into days: 2,520 x 360 = 907,200

From there, we translate those days into our calendar by dividing by 365.25 days (the .25 is our leap year). 907,200 / 365.25 = 2,483.78 Gregorian years

So, -606 - 70 = -536 (start of Babylonian captivity in BC, minus 70 years already fulfilled, captivity ended in 536 BC). -536 + 2483 + 1 = 1948

Their Babylonian captivity ended in 536 BC, add the "7x-punishment" years, and add one more year for the lack of a 0-year... the year their "captivity and doom" ended was in 1948, the very year Israel was recreated as a nation. (and for the record, the "scattered amongst the nations" bit occurred in 70AD with the Roman sacking of Jerusalem).

I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty accurate.

It slams all other religeons in one fell swoop, then proclaims that the Bible is the proof.  I don't dismiss any religeon so easily.

Neither did I, when I searched for the truth. But can you point to some other religion that can pinpoint the exact dates of the fulfillment of some prophecies? ...And for sake of Wikipedia's dates, give or take a few years.

Instead as an agnostic, I can say that I don't know God.  I don't pretend to understand him/her/it.  He, if he exists is way beyond me.  And it wouldn't surpise me at all if we are just one of trillions of inteligent life forms that he has created, and are far from his favorite.

I'll tell you this much, it is harder for us to get to know even Alex Jones, a person who is one of us in our shared ideology, than it is for us to get to know God. We just have to take the time to get to know Him.

I'd love for God to manisfest and show himself to me. (Maybe not too )

There have been many people with that attitude... and when God *did* manifest Himself to them, they called Him a liar, and had Him crucified for blasphemy.

Jesus once told a story, about a rich man and a poor man. The rich man went to hell, and was so miserable, even a drop of water to cool his tongue would have been comforting. The rich man saw how good the poor man had it in heaven, and asked Abraham to send the poor man to his family, so they don't have to endure the pain he's going through. Abraham replied, "No, they have the Moses and prophets telling them already about what the two of you are going through". The rich man said, "They won't listen to them, but if you send one who's already died and seen this, they'll listen". Abraham replies, "If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they listen to one who has risen from the dead".

Now... if you would not listen to Moses, or the prophets, or even the One who has risen from the dead... what makes listening to God Himself any different? Would you attribute Him to schizophrenia, hallucination, waking dream, odd natural occurrence, practical joke, distant megaphone...?

So until God shows me the way, I trust in science.  (Besides, I think science is God's way.  It is his rules of the universe.  We are just begining to unlock his most basic fundimental bits of knowledge.)

You ever listen to what scientists say about eggs? When I was younger, I remember commercials for "the incredible, edible, egg", saying just how healthy eggs were for you. Then, about 10 years later, there was this huge anti-egg hysteria, saying how eggs will murder you in your sleep with all of their high cholesterol... and then about 10 years after that, science is saying, once again, "eggs are good for you... just the whites this time, though".

Then there's butter... lovely butter... "BUTTER WILL KILL YOU! Use heart-healthy margarine", "Margarine is loaded with high cholesterol, use all-natural butter". Then there's the whole thing with calling high fructose corn syrup "corn sugar"...

Most scientists are nothing more than PR reps for companies in white lab coats. Inventors and archaeologists, I've respect for. Everyone else is trying to make life as painless as possible... but, "life is pain… anyone who says differently is selling something"... even if that "selling something" is their theistic or atheistic religion.

Don't get me wrong. I feel that, yes, the scientific method is the best way to determine how God has set the rules of reality in motion... but I realize just how fallible and corruptible humanity is. If someone is willing to put random bones together and call it "Brontosaurus", "Archaeoraptor", or "Hesperopithecus", and then proclaim it to be the infallible truth... if someone is willing to put medicine on the shelves with side effects including death... how much less can we trust the people making millions of dollars off these travesties?

[poncho]

yet you just dismissed the Bible in one fell swoop. You even admit you didnt read barley anything. You let your own prejudice stop you from going any farther. You hit a part that you believe is wrong and stopped, without even seeing if possibly it is you that is wrong. 

That will never happen as you refuse to even look at what is shown.

Not really.  I haven't dismissed it at all. I instead refuse to pick Christianity over any religeon. 

I'm waiting for God to show me the way.  I need something a wee bit more direct than some passages written by the hand of man.  Perhaps a giant face in the sky talking too just me...

Can you prove to me that, for example the Bible wasn't written by early NWO folks 300 years ago?  The dead sea scrolls were planted by them?  (Can't trust science here, because you guys don't trust carbon dating.)


Every technique you use to disprove aspects of science, I can use the same techniques to disprove all religeons.  At least science is observable and measurable usually.  Religeon points to words, written by unknowns...

[Dok]

Not really.  I haven't dismissed it at all. I instead refuse to pick Christianity over any religeon. 

Sure you did, with your very own words.

I didn't read very far.  Couldn't get past the second paragraph with this bit of untrue text:


That right there shows you are not willing to even look beyond anythinf that does not fit with your perceived way of thinking.

I'm waiting for God to show me the way.  I need something a wee bit more direct than some passages written by the hand of man.  Perhaps a giant face in the sky talking too just me...

That will NEVER happen if you are unwilling to even look into it, as you have so stated.

Can you prove to me that, for example the Bible wasn't written by early NWO folks 300 years ago? 

Sure, but youd have to acvtually look at the evidence, and well you do not have a good tract record so far. If you did you wouldnt of even stated such a dumb request.

 The dead sea scrolls were planted by them? 

    wow...


(Can't trust science here, because you guys don't trust carbon dating.)

Just so you know, no radiometric dating works, period. That is a scientific fact. But your not much into facts, just personal opinions.


Every technique you use to disprove aspects of science, I can use the same techniques to disprove all religeons.  At least science is observable and measurable usually.  Religeon points to words, written by unknowns...


Sport, i dont use religion to dismiss science, i use science to dismiss religion. Once you understand that phrase than you will undersatnd how the wool has been pulled over your eyes.

[poncho]

All right.

So I can tell with your reponse, that you think Hinduism is fake.
Ditto For Budhism.  
 
Both of these religeons are 2000 to 3000 year older than Christianity.  Combined, the account for 2 billion+ people on planet Earth.
And that bit of passage, calls them fake, untrue.   I took offense to it.  That killed my interest right there.

How would you feel about a passage like this:
"However, Hinduism is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Vedas."

[Dok]

All right.

So I can tell with your reponse, that you think Hinduism is fake.
Ditto For Budhism.  
 
Both of these religeons are 2000 to 3000 year older than Christianity.  Combined, the account for 2 billion+ people on planet Earth.
And that bit of passage, calls them fake, untrue.   I took offense to it.  That killed my interest right there.

How would you feel about a passage like this:
"However, Hinduism is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Vedas."

I never said they were fake. Hindus can actually do the powers they say they can. Are they worshipping God though? no. It is a false religion. How can i say this? Because i have looked into it.

[poncho]

I never said they were fake. Hindus can actually do the powers they say they can. Are they worshipping God though? no. It is a false religion. How can i say this? Because i have looked into it.

Boom!  Guilty as charged.
Perhaps you have not looked into it enough.  Oh yeah, that is what you are accusing me of.  Yet, you can dismiss it, without knowing everything about Hinduism....

[Dok]

Boom!  Guilty as charged.
Perhaps you have not looked into it enough.  Oh yeah, that is what you are accusing me of.  Yet, you can dismiss it, without knowing everything about Hinduism....

you apparently did not read what i said.  must have stopped at the beginning.

[ex_nihilo]

Actually, the San Diego zoo isn't big enough!!! (Could only hold less than 10%)

10% of what? Do you somehow know the exact number of animals that boarded the ark?

How did the polar bears get from the artic?
How did kangaroos cross the ocean?

You assume that the earth has always looked the same. Surely you've heard of tectonic plates and fault lines and such? At one point the land areas was all together. I seem to remember this being called "pangea" in school. Before the flood there would be no "arctic" nor localized populations such as kangaroos and polar bears.

How did all species of trees survive?  (Not all seeds float, and pressur will kill most)

The seeds don't have to float. Vegetation, which seeds are generally attached to, does however.

Where is the flood evidence on top of Mt Everest?

Mt. Everest is located in the Himalayan mountain range. Mountain ranges are formed from the uplifting pressure of two tectonic plates moving toward each other.

Trilobites (which live in water) have been found on the summit and the mountain's rock is Metamorphic and Sedimentary, consistent with being under water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_everest#Geology

Where did the water go after the flood.  (Invokes magic God wand)

The earth is 75% covered in WATER. I wonder where it all went!!

What about fresh water fish, now living in salt water?

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=351

Seriously, Noah's ark is mostly a myth to me.

That's why you can't answer simple questions such as the ones you've previously posted. It's because you've already decided your stance. If you could be a bit more objective you could come to logical conclusions, instead of dismissing things out of hand.

While it's possible that Noah was real, he didn't gather all species of animals.  

I agree, and so does the bible. The animals came to Noah.

Genesis 6:20
...two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

The flood was also not worldwide, but instead a very small local flood.

Why then would sedimentary rock layers be found world wide with corresponding layers spanning even across the continents?

[poncho]

you apparently did not read what i said.  must have stopped at the beginning.

I think I understand what you wrote better than you do.  Perhaps you didn't notice what you wrote.

But, you claim they don't worship God.  Correct, not your God.  But that doesn't mean they are wrong, and you are right.  That kind of logic works both ways.

You do claim their religeon is false. You better not go to India with that kind of belief.  It may very well get you killed.

[Dok]

I think I understand what you wrote better than you do.  Perhaps you didn't notice what you wrote.

But, you claim they don't worship God.  Correct, not your God.  But that doesn't mean they are wrong, and you are right.  That kind of logic works both ways.

You do claim their religeon is false. You better not go to India with that kind of belief.  It may very well get you killed.

No there is only 1 God, and a slew of other "spiritual beings", it is these other spiritual beings that they worship. Big difference.

[poncho]

10% of what? Do you somehow know the exact number of animals that boarded the ark?

So how big is the ark?  Seriously.  It would have to be huge.  Not just because of the space needed for the animals, but also the shear volume of weight.  The largest cruise ship in the world wouldn't come close to the job.  So you tell me, how big was the ark?

You assume that the earth has always looked the same. Surely you've heard of tectonic plates and fault lines and such? At one point the land areas was all together. I seem to remember this being called "pangea" in school. Before the flood there would be no "arctic" nor localized populations such as kangaroos and polar bears.

I do believe in Pangea.  I'm surprised you brought it up. For entire continents to move thousands of miles, would take millions of years.  But you are telling me God moved them.  OK fine, he displaces time and space, it's fine. But why not just make it that way from the get go. If he uses the laws of physics to move them, we have a problem.  The earthquakes would kill all life.  The 10 mile high tidal waves would kill all life.  The giants rifts where the plates come apart would spew lava and poisons killing all life.  I don't think he did this.  Not even over the course of 2,000 years.  That would be quite some movement even then.

The seeds don't have to float. Vegetation, which seeds are generally attached to, does however.

Uh, huh. All existing vegitation, mushrooms, brushes, and molds survived by floating.  Even those that don't float.  Crazy miracle there!

Mt. Everest is located in the Himalayan mountain range. Mountain ranges are formed from the uplifting pressure of two tectonic plates moving toward each other.

Trilobites (which live in water) have been found on the summit and the mountain's rock is Metamorphic and Sedimentary, consistent with being under water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_everest#Geology

Indeed.  Trilobites and Dinosaurs can be found all over the planet.  Buried sometimes under miles of rock... Do you really want to open yourself up with this?

The earth is 75% covered in WATER. I wonder where it all went!!

I guess we are still 100% covered with water, eh?

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=351

That's why you can't answer simple questions such as the ones you've previously posted. It's because you've already decided your stance. If you could be a bit more objective you could come to logical conclusions, instead of dismissing things out of hand.

Ha, me not logical.  If you knew me, you would laugh at that.  Anyway, all the religeous zealots dismiss any aspect of science, history, beliefs, ways of life that do no co-incide with thier point of view.  

I agree, and so does the bible. The animals came to Noah.

Genesis 6:20
...two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Explain how the Polar bears made it to the middle east?
How did the Koala bears from Australia?
What about Black footed ferrets from North America?  
Etc... for millions upon millions of species in the reptile, antropod, Mammalian, Avian, Insects, Arachids, etc you get my point.

The simplistic view, totaly discounts how animals behave.  You think a Queen ant and a fertilizing male is all that is required to make an ant colony?

Why then would sedimentary rock layers be found world wide with corresponding layers spanning even across the continents?

OK.  Any massive volcano could do this.  Same for a Comet, or large meteor strike.  Even a very large dust cloud could do that.
On the other hand, a large worldwide flood, would not necessarily deposit sediment worldwide.  Many factors come into play.
Per say, what layer of Earth are you refering too?

---
My problem with so called most modern religeous folks is that they still adhear to the concept of the Dark Ages.  
Kill the unbeliever.  Silence him.  How dare he spout blashemy. Off with his head.  
The church and state did kill people for believing the world was round back in the day.
Progress was stiffled.  Usually with a sword.

Weirdly, I've never heard of a violent Atheist...  
But get some of those Pro life folks near an abortion doctor. Boom. Dead doctor. (Remember, the "thou shall not kill" line fools)

[poncho]

In a nutshell.

Religeon goes out of it's way to disprove science.  Some of you claim it's the other way around. Fair enough.
--
I don't think most scientists goals when creating a theory is:
"I've got to find a way to debunk the Bible"

On the other hand, a religeous response to something that conflicts in some way with the Bible is:
"That is going against the Bible, so it's wrong."  And they set about trying to surmise how so.

---

So to me it looks like this:

The Bible.

vs.


Biology.
Paleontology.
Astronomy.
Historians.
Chaos Theory (Mathematics)  Your reading a computer , thanks to this field.
Physics.
Chemistry.
etc.


In a sense, almost all fields of science have conflicting areas with the Bible.
Yet, very few complain about the tangable benefits such science brings. E.g. Satelites in space.

For example. Just because DNA is not mentioned in the Bible,doesn't mean DNA is wrong.  Would the original authors of the Bible even understand the concept of DNA? They were putting holes in people's heads to release demons(headaches) back in the day. That was the top of the line medical field then.

[Dok]

They were putting holes in people's heads to release demons(headaches) back in the day. That was the top of the line medical field then.

 

That was the middle ages, you should really look into the ancient medical practices. you will be quite amazed.

[poncho]

That was the middle ages, you should really look into the ancient medical practices. you will be quite amazed.

My wife is a doctor.
I'm well versed in the medical field.  (Not claiming to know even 3% of what a below average Doctor does though.)

Many civilizations throughout history have done that practice.  Quite barbaric.  I can only imagine that it did releave some pain, albeit by creating new differing pain.
In theory, someone with brain swelling, might actually be saved by such a proceedure.  But odds are, infection will later claim them.

[ex_nihilo]

So how big is the ark?  Seriously.  It would have to be huge.  Not just because of the space needed for the animals, but also the shear volume of weight.  The largest cruise ship in the world wouldn't come close to the job.  So you tell me, how big was the ark?

I've already posted that.

I do believe in Pangea.  I'm surprised you brought it up. For entire continents to move thousands of miles, would take millions of years.  But you are telling me God moved them.  OK fine, he displaces time and space, it's fine. But why not just make it that way from the get go. If he uses the laws of physics to move them, we have a problem.  The earthquakes would kill all life.  The 10 mile high tidal waves would kill all life.  The giants rifts where the plates come apart would spew lava and poisons killing all life.  I don't think he did this.  Not even over the course of 2,000 years.  That would be quite some movement even then.

Wow, you just described the flood scenario, in which killing all life was the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9LvkTZrsEM&feature=related

Uh, huh. All existing vegitation, mushrooms, brushes, and molds survived by floating.  Even those that don't float.  Crazy miracle there!

Examples?

Indeed.  Trilobites and Dinosaurs can be found all over the planet.  Buried sometimes under miles of rock... Do you really want to open yourself up with this?

Are you saying the flood could not have deposited miles of material for the composition of rock?

I guess we are still 100% covered with water, eh?

What?

Ha, me not logical.  If you knew me, you would laugh at that.  Anyway, all the religeous zealots dismiss any aspect of science, history, beliefs, ways of life that do no co-incide with thier point of view.  

Conjecture and sweeping generalization fallacy. Logic??

Explain how the Polar bears made it to the middle east?
How did the Koala bears from Australia?
What about Black footed ferrets from North America?  
Etc... for millions upon millions of species in the reptile, antropod, Mammalian, Avian, Insects, Arachids, etc you get my point.

They didn't, at least not from your designated areas. Before the flood the land masses were connected, so migration was not a problem. 

The simplistic view, totaly discounts how animals behave.  You think a Queen ant and a fertilizing male is all that is required to make an ant colony?

You think only one queen and one fertilizing male ant is all that survived? Insects and their eggs could easily survived on floating vegetation mats, even on food Noah gathered.

OK.  Any massive volcano could do this.  Same for a Comet, or large meteor strike.  Even a very large dust cloud could do that.
On the other hand, a large worldwide flood, would not necessarily deposit sediment worldwide.  Many factors come into play.
Per say, what layer of Earth are you refering too?

Not referring to any specific layer, just the fact that they exist.

My problem with so called most modern religeous folks is that they still adhear to the concept of the Dark Ages.  
Kill the unbeliever.  Silence him.  How dare he spout blashemy. Off with his head.  
The church and state did kill people for believing the world was round back in the day.
Progress was stiffled.  Usually with a sword.

No one is advocating any of what you say. This is delusion on your part.

Weirdly, I've never heard of a violent Atheist...  
But get some of those Pro life folks near an abortion doctor. Boom. Dead doctor. (Remember, the "thou shall not kill" line fools)

Ever heard of Lenin or Mao? There are nuts in every camp.

[Kilika]

My wife is a doctor.
I'm well versed in the medical field.  (Not claiming to know even 3% of what a below average Doctor does though.)

Many civilizations throughout history have done that practice.  Quite barbaric.  I can only imagine that it did releave some pain, albeit by creating new differing pain.
In theory, someone with brain swelling, might actually be saved by such a proceedure.  But odds are, infection will later claim them.

I'm sure your doctor wife knows that proceedure today is called a Crainiotomy, and knows that in fact, not theory, it's used all the time with head injuries. It's about their only chance because there is nowhere for the brain to go except down through the base of the skull and that's not good!

The proceedure was being done as earlier as the ancient Egyptians supposedly. And the actual proceedure is still very "barbaric" today seeing all they do is drill a hole in the skull to relieve pressure by allowing room for the brian to swell, but sometimes they take out larger sections of the skull and have been known to "store" the removed skull section in the stomach cavity till the swelling goes down.

The bible says that there is nothing new under the sun.

[mbacolas]

when science cant explain it it is Gods miracle. The easy way to explain things. I wouldnt mind being christian though. It would require little thinking and provide you with all the answers. Unlike being agnostic where you dont know anything Better to have All the answers than none 

[Femacamper]

when science cant explain it it is Gods miracle. The easy way to explain things. I wouldnt mind being christian though. It would require little thinking and provide you with all the answers. Unlike being agnostic where you dont know anything Better to have All the answers than none 

You claim to know nothing. That itself is knowledge. Thus you contradict yourself.

[mbacolas]

Fine smart @$$, let me reword what i meant to say. I know very little, i dont make large claims to know lot

[citizenx]

Socrates said he knew nothing.

I though it was the Socratic thing.

I think Paul said something like it though (supposedly).

[mbacolas]

thats exactly who i stole the quote from, but i love socrates wisdom. He is far wiser than every single person here, and that you can count on. No disrepect to anyone here of course

[Kilika]

Socrates said he knew nothing.

I though it was the Socratic thing.

I think Paul said something like it though (supposedly).

1   Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 
2   Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 
3   But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 
4   For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 
5   Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 
6 ¶ And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1 Corinthians 4:1-6 (KJB)


1   Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 
2   And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 
3   But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 
4   As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one. 
1 Corinthians 8:1-4 (KJB)

[Femacamper]

Socrates said he knew nothing.

I though it was the Socratic thing.

I think Paul said something like it though (supposedly).

True enough,

"Those who think they know something still have a lot to learn." - 1 Corinthians 8:2

I too know very little, but what I do know is some pretty important stuff.

[thebiblicaldude]

So I can tell with your reponse, that you think Hinduism is fake.
Ditto For Budhism.  
 
Both of these religeons are 2000 to 3000 year older than Christianity.  Combined, the account for 2 billion+ people on planet Earth.
And that bit of passage, calls them fake, untrue.   I took offense to it.  That killed my interest right there.

I love people that can't think outside the box. IF you actually studied Christianity you would see that what Abraham believed is all that Christianity is. Christianity did not start with Christ, it was made perfect with Christ. Do you homework.

[thebiblicaldude]

Gal 3:6 KJV - Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 KJV - Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 KJV - And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 KJV - So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

[Femacamper]

Abraham worshipped I AM.

Jesus claimed to be I AM and was recognized as such by his followers. He was executed for his claim of being I AM.

So he was either a liar, a lunatic, or I AM.

[poncho]

I love people that can't think outside the box. IF you actually studied Christianity you would see that what Abraham believed is all that Christianity is. Christianity did not start with Christ, it was made perfect with Christ. Do you homework.

Think outside the box?
You mean think inside your Christian box.  

I'm able to look at all religeons with skepticism, curiosity, a sense of wonder, admeration, attraction and sense of confusion.
You, being a Christian, have a biased point of view.  You're religeon is right, all others are wrong.  And as such, even if you study another religeon, you cannot give it a fair shake due to your beliefs.

[poncho]

I've already posted that.

I saw your picture from before. I was hoping you had something better than that.
That ship, is woefully undersized for the task at hand.
Maybe it could handle all the species of deer on planet earth.
That's about it.  It would be full almost to the point of sinking even with that load.

Now if you say, believed in Evolution like I do being gods mechanism to create life, you would have an escape route.  You could say that all species of deer, evolved from the one species of deer put on the ARK.  But, as we both know, Darwin is at the heart of science vs. religeon.

Wow, you just described the flood scenario, in which killing all life was the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9LvkTZrsEM&feature=related

The waters on planet earth rising over 5 miles in very quick like fashion.  That would create a series of tidal waves at least a mile high.  That was one heck of a wooden boat to survive hundreds of these waves!!!! I'm impressed.  That wooden boat containing all earths life, survived the ravaging waves.

Examples?

Just about all seeds.  If you have enough agitation in the water, most seeds will sink.

Are you saying the flood could not have deposited miles of material for the composition of rock?

I'm not saying it's not possible.  Just that there is no proof.  Besides, if the entire earth had that much soil in the WORLD WIDE ocean, it would have killed all the fish in the ocean.  Besides being toxic, it would have killed most if not all the plankton, mainly due to lack of light being able to penetrate.  And that alone would doom all life in the ocean.

What?

You stated that 100% of the earth is covered by water in the flood.   Yet you state that the 75% of ocean coverage is where the water went.  What happened to the missing 25%? (actually it's higher than that, closer to 33%)
If you want to say that god waved a magic wand, and boom, less water, fine.
On the other hand, if you state that that 5 miles of extra water still exists, where is it?  That is a massive amount of water.

Conjecture and sweeping generalization fallacy. Logic??

OK, I did commit a logical fallacy and a sweeping generaliztion.
But, my point is still valid. Just replace the word 'all' with 'most'.

They didn't, at least not from your designated areas. Before the flood the land masses were connected, so migration was not a problem. 

Even if the creation of Pangea through massive violence on planet earth was survivalable (It couldn't be), there are still area's of planet earth that are now land based that didn't exist then.  Yet, there are animals, that live in only those places and cannot survive anywhere else on planet earth.

You think only one queen and one fertilizing male ant is all that survived? Insects and their eggs could easily survived on floating vegetation mats, even on food Noah gathered.

More than 8000 distinct species of ants all floating with literally million of other displaced creatures all at once?  Really, you believe this?
So the queen, is able to survive with the attending army needed to keep her alive, all the while, lacking the food needed to survive.  And they survive the massive tidal waves to boot.  In an asounding bit of luck, all 8000 species end up landing, in just the right place on planet earth, so they can prosper.
Why don't we declare the Noah's Ark flood, to be the biggest bit of miracles, since Genesis?  Because there was litteraly billions of miracles those days to pull it off.
Never mind, the massive killing of animals and men. 

Not referring to any specific layer, just the fact that they exist.

You claimed it.  Proof?

No one is advocating any of what you say. This is delusion on your part.

Wrong.  There are still people who would kill you for speaking your mind.  Care to go to Saudia Arabia and spoke your faith?

Ever heard of Lenin or Mao? There are nuts in every camp.

Fair enough.  I forgot about them.

----
I'm curious how you feel about civilizations that have history longer than 6000 years.
Take the Mayans and thier calander.  I hope that you don't deny that thier calander is amazing even by todays standards.  And that means that they created it long before the dead sea scrolls. It had to be long before 5200 years ago. To be more specific, they would have had to survive at least one cycle of thier calander, to have created it in the first place.  That puts thier culture out at least 10,000 years.

No if Aliens, gave them the tech, that is a whole different ball game, and the existance of aliens complicates religeon.
On the other hand, if god game them the calander, why didn't they worship god?

An even better question is, why did the most early people not worship the Bible's God?  You would think that Adam and Eve would kind of pass down such knowledge to all thier prodigy.  So, beside the fact that all the varried peoples of planet Earth came from a gene pool of just 2 seperate DNA (precluding the varations that do exist), these first peoples all over the world did not worship God.  How did that happen?