Ice cores show old earth?

[Amishism]

AJ made some confusing comments today about the Biblical creation mixed with 20,000 year old ice core samples/tree rings, clearly grasping at straws to support the old earth that has been debunked as pagan mythology.

First off claiming this is a devisive thread is choosing sides on the side of the globalist who are pagans and run our Marxist indoctrination system, so, I just want to get out of the way that it is claims made by Alex Jones on radio that are devisive, with untold numbers of listeners including children, about 20,000 + year old anything including ice core samples, that not only CANNOT be substantiated by him or anybody else, but can be proven wrong by a phone caller calling in too disagree on air. It is Alex Jones' comments that were devisive. I have sent AJ materials recommended that shows the undeniable fallacies of these pagan claims of 'science'. He has either chosen not to seek out this material or does not care.

There are no trees over 4500 years old.

Ice cores show old pagan earth?

ICE CORES AND THE AGE OF THE EARTH
By: Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.

Introduction

Based on flow models, the variation of oxygen isotopes, the concentration of carbon dioxide in trapped air bubbles, acid concentrations, and particulates, they believe the lowest layers of the ice sheets were laid down over 160,000 years ago. Annual oscillations of such quantities are often evident in the record near the top of the ice sheets.

Are these records in the ice legitimate? Do they cause a problem for the recent-creation model of earth history? What are we to make of these data? This article will show that the great ages reported for the bottom layers of ice sheets depend on assumed models of past climate.  Direct counting of annual layers is valid downward in the ice sheets for 2-3,000 years in the past, but prior to that there are many gaps in the record and the layers are probably not due to annual accumulation.  An alternative model of ice sheet formation following the Flood described in Genesis will be suggested.


World War II Airplanes Under the Ice

The Greenland Society of Atlanta has excavated a 10-foot diameter shaft in the Greenland ice sheet in the late 1980’s to remove two B-17 Flying Fortresses and six P-38 Lightning fighters trapped under an estimated 250 feet of ice for almost 50 years (Bloomberg, 1989). Aside from the fascination with salvaging several vintage aircraft for parts and movie rights, the fact that these aircraft were buried so deeply in such a short time focuses attention on the time scales used to estimate the chronologies of ice core data.

If the aircraft were buried under about 250 feet of ice and snow in about 50 years, this means the ice sheet has been accumulating at an average rate of five feet per year. The Greenland ice sheet averages almost 4000 feet thick. If we were to assume the ice sheet has been accumulating at this rate since its beginning, it would take less than 1000 years for it to form and the recent-creation model might seem to be vindicated.

Greenland Ice Cores

However, life is never as simple as implied above. In making our calculations, we did not take into account the compaction of the snow into ice as it is weighted down by the snow above. Neither did we consider the thinning of ice layers as the tremendous weight above forces the ice at lower levels to squeeze out horizontally. More importantly, we did not consider the average precipitation rate and actual depths of ice for different locations on the Greenland ice sheet.

When these factors are taken into account, the average annual thickness of ice at Camp Century located near the southern tip of Greenland is believed to vary from about fourteen inches near the surface to less than two inches near the bottom (Hammer, et al., 1978). If, for simplicity, we assume the average annual thickness to be the mean between the annual thickness at the top and at the bottom (about eight inches), this still gives an age of less than 6000 years for the 4000-foot-thick ice sheet to form under uniformitarian conditions.

[Amishism]

Evidence for a Young World/Universe
by Dr. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D., ICR associate professor of physics

1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast.
2. Too few supernova remnants.
3. Comets disintegrate too quickly.
4. Not enough mud on the sea floor.
5. Not enough sodium in the sea.
6. The earth’s magnetic field is decaying too fast.
7. Many strata are too tightly bent.
8. Biological material decays too fast.
9. Fossil radioactivity shortens geologic “ages” to a few years.
10. Too much helium in minerals.
11. Too much carbon 14 in deep geologic strata.
12. Not enough Stone Age skeletons.
13. Agriculture is too recent.
14. History is too short.



EVIDENCE FOR CREATION

1. The Fossil Record...Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of "primitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today. Yet, "since only a small percentage of the earth's surface obeys even a portion of the geologic column the claim of their having taken place to form a continuum of rock/life/time over the earth is therefore a fantastic and imaginative contrivance.1" "The lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled."2 This supposed column is actually saturated with "polystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame. "To the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." 3

2. Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the molecules necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.

3. The Global Flood... The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 M.E. Clark and Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent. 6 Secular scholars report very rapid sedimentation and periods of great carbonate deposition in earth's sedimentary layers..7 It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.8
Polystrate tree fossil, a result of rappid deposition flood sediment.


4. Population Statistics...World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

5. Radio Halos...Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

6. Human Artifacts throughout the Geologic Column...Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock – point to the fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past.11

7. Helium Content in Earth's Atmosphere... Physicist Melvin Cook, found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12

8. Expansion of Space Fabric...Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data.13 The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator14. Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.

9. Design in Living Systems...A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17

10. Design in the Human Brain...The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe.18 It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells.19 This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. 20 In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans - all without knowing they are doing so.21

1Woodmorappe, John, "The Essential Non-Existence of the Evolutionary Uniformitarian Geologic Column: A Quantitative Assessment," Creation Research Society Quarterly, vol. 18, no.1 (Terre Haute, Indiana, June 1981),pp. 46-71

2 Nilsson, N. Heribert, as quoted in Arthur C. Custance, The Earth Before Man, Part II, Doorway Papers, no. 20 (Ontario, Canada: Doorway Publications), p. 51

3Corner, E.J.H., Contemporary Botanical Thought, ed. A.M. MacLeod and L.S. Cobley (Chicago: Quadrangle Books, 1961), p. 97

4Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)

5Blick, Edward, A Scientific Analysis of Genesis (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1991) p. 103

6Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., "Fluid Mechanic Examination of the Tial Mechanism for Producing Mega-Sedimantary Layering" (Third International Conference on Creation, Pittsburg, July 1994)

7Ager, Derek, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record (New York: John Wiley and Sons) p. 43 and p. 86

8West, John Anthony, Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt (New York: Julian Press, 1987) pp. 13-14

9 See Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, CA: Master Books)

10Gentry, Robert, Creation's Tiny Mystery (Knoxville, Tenn.: Earth Science Assoc.,1988)

11 Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)

12Cook, Melvin, "Where is The Earth's Radiogenic Helium?" Nature, Vol. 179, p. 213

13Cowan, R., "Further Evidence of a Youthful Universe," Science News, Vol. 148, p. 166

14Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22

15Humphries, Russell, Starlight and Time (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1994)

16Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Maryland: Adler & Adler, 1986) p. 263

17 Mastropaolo, Joseph, "Evolution Is Biologically Impossible," Impact # 317 (El Cajon, CA: Institute For Creation Research,1999) p. 4

18Restak, Richard, The Brain: The Last Frontier, 1979, p. 390

19The Brain, Our Universe Within, PBS Video

20Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Video Series

21Weiss, Joseph, "Unconscious Mental Functioning," Scientific American, March 1990, p. 103

[Cruise4]

Fascinating stuff. 

[clint]

Hmmmmmmm. 

[TimeLady]

OK, are you simply a Christian who believes in young earth creationism, or ... what?

Because there are plenty of people who can give evidence for an exceedingly old earth.

Also those who can give evidence that an empire called "Atlantis" once existed.

[drewt431]

Amishism is correct.  For a boatload of info. on this topic go to-
http://www.drdino.com/downloads.php
There is both audio and video of Kent Hovind's amazing seminar.  Note-  Hovind is now in jail for fighting the income tax!

[whitelocust]

dinosaur.

[drewt431]

Dinosaurs go GRRRRRRRRR!!

[TimeLady]

Interesting. Although I don't agree with his science at all, I remain convinced that he could be the victim of persecution by the government for his theories.

Imprisonment for "income tax fraud" is a BS charge that dates at least to the imprisonment of Al Capone.

[drewt431]

Hovind actually ran his ministry (tax wise) the same as big shot Rick Warren does.  It's fishy how Hovind can get thrown in jail, and Warren can have Hillary Clinton go to his church and speak.  hmmmm.....

[TimeLady]

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

Don't worry, all you have to do is agree with the "official" theology and they'll leave you alone. That chip they want to put in the right hand or forehead? No no, that can't be the mark of the Beast at all...

[LarryInColumbus]

I followed the Kent Hovind tax story.  He did what the IRS told him to do and they even admitted it.  They then convicted him of failure to withhold taxes from employees and the media claimed that he failed to pay taxes which he owed.  They really railroaded him.  That is and always has been a sign that someone is doing God's work.

[drewt431]

If anyone wants to keep track of the Hovind situation go to www.cseblogs.com.  Hovind's letters from jail are posted there and also news updates.  Also, his info. is very good and he handles his copyright the same as Alex Jones does, so if anyone wants to get active you can download his materials, burn them to DVD and hand out to people.  The link for that is http://www.drdino.com/downloads.php

[Kregener]

Here is a 140 million-year-old "fossilized" hammer:




Not to mention all the ancient figurines, and pictographs showing tribes doing battle with dinosaurs:





But what probably happened, was these ancient people simply were really into archeology, and they excavated some millions-year-old fossils, accurately reconstructed the extinct dinos using river clay, and THEN drew the pictures of them.

[Amishism]

Ice Cores and the Age of the Earth
by Larry Vardiman, Ph.D.
Introduction
It is not uncommon to read that ice cores from the polar regions contain records of climatic change from the distant past. Research teams from the United States, the Soviet Union, Denmark, and France have bored holes over a mile deep into the ice near the poles and removed samples for analysis in their laboratories.

Based on flow models, the variation of oxygen isotopes, the concentration of carbon dioxide in trapped air bubbles, the presence of oxygen isotopes, acid concentrations, and particulates, they believe the lowest layers of the ice sheets were laid down over 160,000 years ago. Annual oscillations of such quantities are often evident in the record.

Are these records in the ice legitimate? Do they cause a problem for the recent-creation model of earth history? What are we to make of these data? This article will show that the great ages reported for the bottom layers of ice sheets depend on assumed models of past climate and are not the result of direct counting of layers. An alternative model of recent glacier formation following the Flood described in Genesis will be suggested.

World War II Airplanes Under the Ice
The Greenland Society of Atlanta has recently attempted to excavate a 10-foot diameter shaft in the Greenland ice pack to remove two B-17 Flying Fortresses and six P-38 Lightning fighters trapped under an estimated 250 feet of ice for almost 50 years (Bloomberg, 1989). Aside from the fascination with salvaging several vintage aircraft for parts and movie rights, the fact that these aircraft were buried so deeply in such a short time focuses attention on the time scales used to estimate the chronologies of ice.

If the aircraft were buried under about 250 feet of ice and snow in about 50 years, this means the ice sheet has been accumulating at an average rate of five feet per year. The Greenland ice sheet averages almost 4000 feet thick. If we were to assume the ice sheet has been accumulating at this rate since its beginning, it would take less than 1000 years for it to form and the recent-creation model might seem to be vindicated.

Greenland Ice Cores
However, life is never as simple as implied above. In making our calculations, we did not take into account the compaction of the snow into ice as it is weighted down by the snow above. Neither did we consider the thinning of ice layers as the tremendous weight above forces the ice at lower levels to squeeze out horizontally. More importantly, we did not consider the average precipitation rate and actual depths of ice for different locations on the Greenland ice sheet.

When these factors are taken into account, the average annual thickness of ice at Camp Century located near the northern tip of Greenland is believed to vary from about fourteen inches near the surface to less than two inches near the bottom (Hammer, et al., 1978). If, for simplicity, we assume the average annual thickness to be the mean between the annual thickness at the top and at the bottom (about eight inches), this still gives an age of less than 6000 years for the 4000-foot-thick ice sheet to form under uniformitarian conditions.

This is in relatively good agreement with the number of annual oscillations of ð18O currently observed in Greenland cores. Although occasional ambiguities occur, it is relatively easy to count annual layers downward from the surface through considerable depths in the Greenland ice sheet. This is possible because of the large precipitation rates in Greenland and the preservation of the annual effects.

It is also possible with a high degree of accuracy to cross check the counting of annual layers with occasional peaks in acidity and particulates from the fallout of historic volcanic events. Hammer, et al. (1978) have correlated the peaks in the mean acidity of annual layers from 553 to 1972 A.D. with historic volcanic events. About a dozen historical volcanic eruptions are evident in the ice core from Crete in central Greenland. Several unknown eruptions are also documented in the ice core record.

The confidence in the chronology becomes less the lower in the ice sheet one goes, however. The amplitude of the annual oscillations slowly decreases relative to other factors, and historic markers are fewer and farther apart. Glaciologists estimate that uncertainties in identification of layers will probably limit the number of countable layers to less than about 8,500 (Hammer, et al., 1978).

Antarctic Ice Cores
The claims that layers of ice were formed 160,000 years ago or more come primarily from interpretation of ice cores in Antarctica (Jouzel, et al., 1987; Barnola, et al., l987). The Soviet Antarctic Expeditions at Vostok in East Antarctica recovered an ice core which was almost 7,000 feet long in a region where the total ice thickness is about 12,000 feet (Lorius, et al., 1979; Lorius, et al., 1985). Since the current precipitation rate is so much less than Greenland (on the order of one inch per year) the crude calculation of age, without corrections for compression and horizontal motion for the lowest layers is more than 100,000 years.

However, such estimates are critically based on the assumption that the accumulation rate has not varied greatly over the past. Unlike the Greenland ice cores, annual oscillations of ð18O and other parameters cannot be traced deeply into the ice sheet on Antarctica. In Greenland, the high precipitation rates not only provide relatively thick annual layers for analysis, but the accumulating snow quickly seals off the ice beneath and protects the record from metamorphosis by pressure and temperature changes in the atmosphere. In Antarctica, by the time the ice has been buried deeply enough to no longer be influenced by the atmosphere, annual variations have been greatly dampened by diffusion (Epstein, et al., 1965; Johnsen, et al., 1972).

The technique used to estimate the age of an ice layer deep in the ice sheet is to measure its ð18O content and compute the atmospheric temperature which is observed to produce such concentrations today (Jouzel and Merlivat, 1984). Through a second-known relation between temperature and precipitation rate, again observed in today's atmosphere, the accumulation rate for a given layer is calculated (Lorius, et al., 1985). Once the accumulation rate is calculated for each layer, the depth and age for each layer in the ice is calculated by integrating the annual accumulation downward from the surface.

There are several historical markers in Antarctica which can be used to cross check these calculations for the past few thousand years. But historical volcanic events are not known beyond a few thousand years in the past which provide any certainty to the calculation of age. This method would be reasonably reliable if precipitation rates had been similar in the past. However, some creationist models predict significant quantities of snow immediately after the Flood (Oard, 1990). Perhaps as much as 95% of the ice near the poles could have accumulated in the first 500 years or so after the Flood.



Wild ice-core interpretations by uniformitarian scientists
by Michael J. Oard
The wild oscillations in the oxygen isotope ratio during the Ice Age is interpreted by uniformitarian scientists as catastrophic changes in temperature in the North Atlantic region. These are used to justify speculation on rapid climate change in the present climate due to increased greenhouse gasses. It is the uniformitarian stretched-out time scale that is the main cause of the problem. Within a creationist model,1 the large fluctuations can be explained by events during the Ice Age. With much thicker annual layers in the Ice Age portion of the core, the oscillations could simply be annual layers caused by seasonal changes in temperature or more prolonged changes in temperature caused by variable volcanic dust loading in the stratosphere.

Interpretation of ice cores is another example where different assumptions, using the very same data, result in quite different conclusions.

[Amishism]

500,000 years
5000.00 years


False History
by David Down

Bible history of Israel is divided into four neat eras for which we should expect solid archaeological evidence. First, the Exodus and military occupation of Palestine followed by the period of the Judges. There should be evidence of destruction and fire (of the Canaanite civilization), and above that, the appearance of a new people (the Israelites) with new pottery styles, different burial practices and manufacturing skills (Exodus 35:30–35).

This is exactly what we find at the end of the Early Bronze Age and the beginning of the Middle Bronze I Period. Kathleen Kenyon, who excavated Jericho, wrote in her book, ‘The final end of the early Bronze Age civilization came with catastrophic completeness. The last of the Early Bronze Age walls of Jericho was built in a great hurry, using old and broken bricks, and was probably not completed when it was destroyed by fire. Little or none of the town inside the walls has survived subsequent denudation, but it was probably completely destroyed, for all the finds show that there was an absolute break, and that a new people took the place of the earlier inhabitants. Every town in Palestine that has so far been investigated shows the same break. The newcomers were nomads, not interested in town life, and they so completely drove out or absorbed the old population, perhaps already weakened and decadent, that all traces of the Early Bronze Age civilization disappeared.’

‘An absolute break … a new people … every town in Palestine … newcomers were nomads … completely drove out or absorbed the old population …’. Could we expect to find a more apt description of the Israelite invasion, nomads from the desert who initially were not interested in living in the cities?

Left: A thick layer of black ash from the end of the Early Bronze period at Jericho.
Right: Tel Dothan, typical of the mounds containing the ruins of Old Testment cities.

Still more correlation

Next came the period of affluence and power during the centuries of the Israelite monarchy. Concerning the Middle Bronze IIB Period, prominent Israeli archaeologist Dr Amihai Mazar wrote, ‘The Middle Bronze Age architecture was to a large extent innovative and original. Together with the massive fortifications of this period, it evidences a thriving, prosperous urban culture. The magnitude of the palaces and temples manifests the wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the autocracy and theocracy of the period.’5

Then came the exile into Assyria and Babylon when large portions of the population were despatched into captivity. Soon after the Assyrian conquest of Israel, the prophet Isaiah wrote, ‘Your land is wasted, your cities burned with fire. Strangers devour your land right before your eyes, and it is wasted, as overthrown by strangers’ (Isaiah 1:7). We should find in the next layer, the Late Bronze Age, evidence of a depleted population, and we do.

Israeli archaeologist Israel Finklestein wrote, ‘The entire country flourished in MB IIB … fortified cities, villages, and individual farms—were founded throughout the region … . In contrast to the extraordinary prosperity of MB II, the Late Bronze period was characterized by a severe crisis in settlement … . Moreover, those sites where occupation did continue, frequently shrank in size.’6

Fourth came the return from exile, when many of the Israelites migrated back to their original lands. ‘The whole congregation together was forty-two thousand, three hundred and sixty’ (Ezra 2:64). Finklestein says, ‘The Iron I period again witnessed a dramatic swing in the population of the hill country, this time in the opposite direction.’7 And then he voices the dilemma that faces archaeologists because of their wrong dates: ‘… MB II, Late Bronze and Iron I periods … leave two critical questions for which satisfactory answers must be found: Why and to where did over half of the MB II population, i.e., virtually all the inhabitants of the hill country, “vanish”? From where did the people who settled the hundreds of sites in Iron I “materialize”?’7 If Israel Finklestein changed his dates, he would soon have the answers.

It was a period of danger and hardship. Building activity was slow. ‘The ones who built on the wall, and the ones who carried burdens; with those who were lifting, one a worker in the work, and one held a weapon’ (Nehemiah 4:17). This then is the early Iron Age, which Mr Lazare so loudly trumpets to be a period of poverty, which cannot fit the reign of Solomon. You are right, Mr Lazare. It does not fit the reign of Solomon, but if you get your dates right, it perfectly fits the return from exile.

Let the archaeological history be rewritten, then, and it will be found to give remarkable support to the Biblical records. David and Solomon did exist and were the triumphant builders of a great nation that dominated Palestine and the surrounding areas.

[lord edward coke]

OK, are you simply a Christian who believes in young earth creationism, or ... what?

Because there are plenty of people who can give evidence for an exceedingly old earth.

Also those who can give evidence that an empire called "Atlantis" once existed.

atlantis             evidence please 

[Kregener]

He is not saying HE believes in Atlantis, just that some people do. Like alien spacecraft or reptilian shapeshifters or 9/11 inside job or....well...I hope you get the idea.

Atlantis may very well have existed, but was lost in the flood.

[lord edward coke]

He is not saying HE believes in Atlantis, just that some people do. Like alien spacecraft or reptilian shapeshifters or 9/11 inside job or....well...I hope you get the idea.

Atlantis may very well have existed, but was lost in the flood.

timelady is a HE?     things are definetly not what they seem.

[TimeLady]

timelady is a HE?     things are definetly not what they seem.

I HAVE MASTERED CUBIC TIME.

DIFFERENCES BETWEN MAN/WOMAN ARE TAUGHT BY EVIL BIBLE-INFLUENCED SCIENCE.

...

and such. Really, it's too early for me to be making Timecube-based rants.

[lord edward coke]

I HAVE MASTERED CUBIC TIME.

DIFFERENCES BETWEN MAN/WOMAN ARE TAUGHT BY EVIL BIBLE-INFLUENCED SCIENCE.

...

and such. Really, it's too early for me to be making Timecube-based rants.

scarry