There's no point in going to college anymore

[phosphene]

pawn shops wont take your diploma for $40k either.

[nustada]

I beleive trade schools are the way to go for most people, after one gets and simultaneously has a related job. The exception are jobs that have been historically well paid, such as doctors, dentist, and so on. If you go after those, get into a school that is known for training the best and claims to focus on that field.

Also, remember, always question a professors motive to teach. If they are there for their tenure or "just a job", avoid that class. If the professor is on cutting edge science and is working toward some patent worthy breakthroughs, or the guy that is a contributor to industry standards and documentation, or the guy that did something amazing in his life and teaches because he wants to be involved in his industry but is semi-retired, those are the guys you want to learn from.

[freedom_commonsense]

I went to college to learn things and not get a piece of paper.  There will be experts you can learn from in colleges.  You are lucky you have someone with actual experience teaching.  Back in the 1980s when I headed up a computer club the local college computer science prof would shake if I asked him a question because I had actual programming experience and had shipped product.   It took until the mid-1990s for a lot of colleges to teach worthwhile computer classes.  They learned that graduating students who could program in Pascal wasn't very useful anymore.

If I was any good at software development, I would be doing a programming-focused version of this course, and probably already making a good living...

And depending on the individual a lot of stuff can be learned from books.  I am self-taught in computers but wound up teaching programming as well as managing programmers.  I would hire college grads at the junior programmer level but would often hire self-taught people at a higher level who had a portfolio of software they could show you and explain what they did.   Those were people who could get the job done and also help mentor the entry level junior programmers.

Well, in my experience, the real money in the support\installation\network side of IT is business-to-business. One of the things I'm going to build up at university is connections in the business world (that could be via job fairs or individuals for example). Then there's the fact I have use of much better equipment than I could afford otherwise - you can't really accurately simulate a corporate network at home with free software. The literary resources are again, better than what I can get for free online (eg hard copies of rare books instead of extracts).

pawn shops wont take your diploma for $40k either.

Most of the money is eaten up by obscene living costs in the UK which I'd incur regardless. Fees are about $10-15k. Geolibertarian's discussion on land ownership is a good reference point to understand why living costs are so high.

[nustada]

If I was any good at software development, I would be doing a programming-focused version of this course, and probably already making a good living...

Well, in my experience, the real money in the support\installation\network side of IT is business-to-business. One of the things I'm going to build up at university is connections in the business world (that could be via job fairs or individuals for example). Then there's the fact I have use of much better equipment than I could afford otherwise - you can't really accurately simulate a corporate network at home with free software. The literary resources are again, better than what I can get for free online (eg hard copies of rare books instead of extracts).

Most of the money is eaten up by obscene living costs in the UK which I'd incur regardless. Fees are about $10-15k. Geolibertarian's discussion on land ownership is a good reference point to understand why living costs are so high.

I believe college is the absolute worst coarse to go to for I.T., but if you started already it don't worry too much, you just will have a harder time to get a job. Trade schools are way more bang for the buck, if you pick the right trade school, you get taught by the people who actually write the Industry standards, and work closely with the major businesses in the area (They have a vested interest in getting good techs).

[ES]

+1 awesome post. Monkey is too busy making fun of others struggling to get by to loan out his money. Actually, he really reminds me of ebeneezer Scrooge, too rich for his own good.  Monkey now views ppl w/o millions like his old ass as weak and pathetic. It's funny because I've often wondered how the rich are able to delude themselves into thinking they are so much better than everyone else, and monkey just provided a glimpse into that window

Actually I was just kidding with monkey cause I know he ain't rollin in millions. But I heard he does snort geritol off of super-model's asses. 

[freedom_commonsense]

I believe college is the absolute worst coarse to go to for I.T., but if you started already it don't worry too much, you just will have a harder time to get a job. Trade schools are way more bang for the buck, if you pick the right trade school, you get taught by the people who actually write the Industry standards, and work closely with the major businesses in the area (They have a vested interest in getting good techs).

Ah, but this is 50% industry standards and 50% traditional computer science. I get Comptia, CCNA and MCSA fees included in the course. One of the modules is a near-mirror of the "Managing and Maintaining a Windows Server Environment" MCP for example. My assignments revolved around providing business solutions and justifying them, giving presentations to the non-technical folk and researching new technology.

This is the closest to a 'trade school' in the UK you'll get, employers don't run their own training, they outsource it. This course was meant to fill demand for practical expertise. Please try to read the thread first and let go of your prejudices  

[Monkeypox]

wow hey guy I have a job and I pay my own rent, utilities and car insurance (I own my shitty car). I said in my OP that my mom helps me with my massive student loan bills (about $350 a month) because she wants to and I could use the assistance. I guess accepting that money makes me a pussy to old farts like monkey here but I could care less because I don't value people by how much money they make and/or have...

You see monkey, you are no different then the very ppl enslaving us all and for that I pity you. How blind must you be to throw dirt in my face trying to feebly insult me when you don't know anything about me or my life situation. I guess whatever it takes to boost your geritol-ridden ego, eh monkey?

Apparently I hit a nerve, eh sonny?

Excuse me, I need to put in my hearing aid and false teeth before Lawrence Welk comes on...

[DireWolf]

True knowledge and wisdom are no longer taught in most universities. Truth and wisdom come from the asking of questions and the utilization of what one has learned.

[Protean]

Go to a 2 year technical arts college and triple your earning power--I did.
 

[Protean]

Apparently I hit a nerve, eh sonny?

Excuse me, I need to put in my hearing aid and false teeth before Lawrence Welk comes on...

Hey, don't dis the Welkster, a one-a, and a two-a...(cue bubbles.)

[nustada]

Ah, but this is 50% industry standards and 50% traditional computer science. I get Comptia, CCNA and MCSA fees included in the course. One of the modules is a near-mirror of the "Managing and Maintaining a Windows Server Environment" MCP for example. My assignments revolved around providing business solutions and justifying them, giving presentations to the non-technical folk and researching new technology.

This is the closest to a 'trade school' in the UK you'll get, employers don't run their own training, they outsource it. This course was meant to fill demand for practical expertise. Please try to read the thread first and let go of your prejudices  

When I was in trade school, my friends and I made a lot of money going over to fix things caused by a nearby universities IT admin/dept head. So maybe I am biased, these kids were paying literally 10x for education than me, and I was actually making enough money off of their idiotic teacher to pay for my schooling.

Those kids thought that just because they were going to a "good" school, and they were "cramming" their certs they had it made.

[freedom_commonsense]

When I was in trade school, my friends and I made a lot of money going over to fix things caused by a nearby universities IT admin/dept head. So maybe I am biased, these kids were paying literally 10x for education than me, and I was actually making enough money off of their idiotic teacher to pay for my schooling.

Not someone from the industry then. Maybe you should have gotten a long term contract with them 

Those kids thought that just because they were going to a "good" school, and they were "cramming" their certs they had it made.

Well, unfortunately I missed out on a trainee place in the IT department, it was down to me and 4 other guys. Oh well. Maybe next year...

I could turn round and say, "Why should I take trainee wages, $18k, when I have 5 years experience?" but I'm not that arrogant. 

[Rebelitarian]

you don't need to go to college to do that, college is designed to dumb you down

I won't disagree with you I have noticed that the higher you go in levels of education the more they discourage creative or innovative thinking and they gear you more towards "procedures" & "policies".

However stick with the math and the sciences you'll be good to go.

[phasma]

I went to uni - did a BSc, then a Mres then a PhD. . . I`d have been better off just going ahead and getting a job straight after I got my first deree - my friends who did are better off!

My daughter said the other day she doesn`t want to go to uni just to work on the tills at tesco . . . many graduates end up there now, there are not the jobs.

She wants to go for an "apprenticeship" thing. It gives you the equivalent of 5 A levels, plus it pays you while you do it (about 9k a year while you train). If she did the two year apprentiship, and saved all her wages, she could go to uni later and not have any debt - she would also have 2 years of experience under her belt if she decided not to go to uni and that would be more likely to get her a job than a peice of paper would.

Its the way to go i think.

I advise my kids to learn a trade - plumbing, electronics, etc etc because there is alwys a need for these people.

[worcesteradam]

when i was at uni all they cared about was referencing.
you had to do the references exactly right
nobody cared about learning

[CaptBebops]

The real money in programming is management.  You are hired to "herd cats" or be a babysitter.  To be good at you have to know what your programmers are doing and that is why good programmers are often (or were often) promoted to management positions and compensated well for it.  To me just being an IT tech would be boring and grunt work.  I'm a creative programmer and not someone you want to hire for fixing code or systems.  The latter is a left brained field.  Right brained programmers are what you hire to solve problems and give you new solutions.  They are more like artists than engineers.

Unfortunately Edward Yourdon's 1990s prediction of a flooded programmer market came true.  It is still hard for businesses to separate the wheat from the chaff but they often will risk a late release by hiring cheap inexperienced young programmers over older more experienced who know what roads to go down to bring the product in on time.  Sometimes when I go to sites like YouTube they look like they were definitely done by 20 somethings with no experienced supervision.  There are obvious design gaffs.  And sometimes I think the "take downs" of things like Alex's videos are more due to an exuberant young employee there trying to empress his manager or not really sure what constitutes "inappropriate" material and a more seasoned employee or manager wouldn't have bothered.
 

[nustada]

The real money in programming is management.  You are hired to "herd cats" or be a babysitter.  To be good at you have to know what your programmers are doing and that is why good programmers are often (or were often) promoted to management positions and compensated well for it.  To me just being an IT tech would be boring and grunt work.  I'm a creative programmer and not someone you want to hire for fixing code or systems.  The latter is a left brained field.  Right brained programmers are what you hire to solve problems and give you new solutions.  They are more like artists than engineers.

Unfortunately Edward Yourdon's 1990s prediction of a flooded programmer market came true.  It is still hard for businesses to separate the wheat from the chaff but they often will risk a late release by hiring cheap inexperienced young programmers over older more experienced who know what roads to go down to bring the product in on time.  Sometimes when I go to sites like YouTube they look like they were definitely done by 20 somethings with no experienced supervision.  There are obvious design gaffs.  And sometimes I think the "take downs" of things like Alex's videos are more due to an exuberant young employee there trying to empress his manager or not really sure what constitutes "inappropriate" material and a more seasoned employee or manager wouldn't have bothered.
 

If you can find a niche you are good to go freelance as well. An example, A friend of mine, he writes software tailored to farmers, that ties data and equipment health monitoring from their weight scales, water pumps, storage volume and so on with  the ability to do accounting, automatic supply ordering, employee auditing and so on.

Worked himself to death setting it up, now he gets fat royalties.