There's no point in going to college anymore

[Anti_Illuminati]

Graduate tax will force students to pay back more for degrees
Business secretary Vince Cable announces plans to charge university-leavers according to how much they earn

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/jul/15/high-earners-pay-more-for-degrees?CMP=AFCYAH

Students who end up in highly-paid careers are likely to pay far more for their degrees in future, the business secretary said today, under plans to charge university-leavers according to how much they earn.

In his first major speech on universities, the business secretary Vince Cable said it was not right that teachers and care workers were expected to pay the same graduate contribution as top commercial lawyers or surgeons who earned much more.

And, in a speech entitled "the looming crisis", Cable warned that universities which were struggling financially would be left to go bankrupt in future.

The government wants to encourage the expansion of private universities and chains of globally-branded universities. This would inevitably lead to more competition and some universities would struggle, Cable said.

But he said that students at these universities would be protected. He used the analogy of a bank. "It would be similar to banks. Banks can fail, but depositors are still protected," he said. A handful of universities are known to be on an "at-risk" list because they are in danger of falling into very heavy debt.

Universities had to be prepared for a period of contraction, he said. Britain is a poorer country than two years ago with a loss of income of over 6%, and future spending had to be adjusted accordingly. He called for the public to "rethink the case for our universities from the beginning".

He said: "The university sector has experienced half a century or more of expansion – in numbers of students, staff and institutions. There is enormous forward momentum. I wonder how many people in this room really – deep down – are psychologically prepared for a period of consolidation, perhaps even contraction," he said.

"We need to rethink how we fund them, and what we expect them deliver for the public support they receive."

Cable insisted he did not want to see the quality of universities fall. "We don't want to narrow the opportunities for young people to go to university, so the only possible way forward is a bigger graduate contribution."

Cable said he had asked Lord Browne, the former BP chief executive charged with reviewing student finance, to consider varying the contribution that graduates pay according to how much they earn, and possibly which university they attended.

This would mean those that go into highly-paid finance jobs and attended Oxford or Cambridge would prop up those that went into nursing at lesser-known universities.

The funds collected would go to the graduates' universities. "We have impressed on Browne that [charging graduates different rates] is a very important priority," he said.

Cable said he, the prime minister and the chancellor were all in favour of a graduate tax – or contribution – under which university-leavers would pay a higher rate of tax. It would be unlikely that graduates would have to pay this back for the whole of their lives.

The government would pay fees directly to the universities instead of lending money to students to cover the cost of their studies. Students would pay the state back when they earned £15,000 or more.

Cable said it would be "quite tempting to use a Stalinist approach" and manoeuvre universities with levers such as cutting student numbers. "I don't want to do that; we are trying to get universities to develop themselves."

Professor Les Ebdon, chair of million+, a university thinktank that represents former polytechnics, expressed concern that students would pay more. "This has to be squared with the coalition government's commitment to social mobility," he said.

Professor Steve Smith, president of Universities UK, which represents university leaders, said he wanted an assurance that if graduate contributions were tied to earnings, the proceeds would go to universities. He said: "The university sector accepts the current restrains on all public spending but would urge against reducing investment in higher education, which would be economically self-defeating.

"We cannot turn back the clock to a society where we flourished with a small number of graduates. All our international competitors realise that they need to invest in undergraduate places, not disinvest."

But Wendy Piatt, director general of the Russell Group of leading research-intensive universities such as Oxford and Cambridge, said the current system had "all the positive features of a graduate tax without the downsides". "We, therefore, do not agree that a pure graduate tax would be a better or a fairer system.

"We are particularly concerned that it would be many years before revenue from a graduate tax becomes available, so until then there would be a requirement for a very major upfront investment in universities by government – a very costly solution."

She said it was hard to define a "graduate" and to recoup tax from EU students. "The fairest and most effective way of securing graduate contributions in order to protect the quality of UK higher education and its contribution to economic growth is through higher fees and income-contingent loans."

[phosphene]

lol! now the "successful" students will be ruining the curve for a change.

[larsonstdoc]

  They must of been smokin some pretty good weed to come up with this proposal.  Maybe some LSD was also involved.

[Monkeypox]

The UK has gone off the deep end in so many ways...

[freedom_commonsense]

I wonder how much these academic staff get paid?

With the lack of scholarships and private grants, I expect it'll be near pointless to go to university here under the current system. Unless you're from a wealthy family, in which case you never needed it anyway.

[worcesteradam]

you dont get much teaching at a university anyway
everybody is there for the qualification.
and because its a right of passage.

[freedom_commonsense]

you dont get much teaching at a university anyway
everybody is there for the qualification.
and because its a right of passage.

I get more than just a degree from the university I'm at, I also get preparation for professional certifications (which are also included) and enough free time to do year-round placements\work. The exact kind of vocational stuff that the boomers\early generation X complain about people not doing.

As for the rite of passage thing...I'm not into the casual sex\booze side. If I meet a nice girl, and form a relationship great. The social side is obviously there, but not the primary reason.

[Rebelitarian]

I must disagree.

If you have a 20 year old you get him or her into higher education while their minds are still expanding and fertile. 

I've met many adults down here in Florida from 20-70 and many of them are just clueless about what is going on in the world.  I was in this one class where a guy's girlfriend didn't even know what the census was.  Some still think the currency is backed by gold.  Others have no idea what the New World Order is and why I come across as being so "obsessed about it."   Then there are others who have no idea how fractional reserve banking works and wonder why they have to work 2 jobs to live.

The New World Order will fail eventually as more people wake up.  Kids will only be 20 once.  Get them in college and have them start absorbing knowledge.

Knowledge comes from taking things apart. - Wisdomcomes from bringing things together.

With great knowledge comes great power and with great power comes great responsibility.

They are the next generation teach them what it means to be responsible.

[kushfiend]

I got a BA in economics from south fla and it's funny because I currently make less than a teacher. My mom can have fun paying my student loans forever for forcing me through brainwashing academy all those years. I remember taking enviromental Econ and being forced to regurgitate how global warming was real and how the govt supposedly needed to sanction all natural gas and oil.

It's all a massive set up.

[Cryptvill]

Good link, thanks for this

[Rebelitarian]

Stick to the Math/Science and History Departments.

[Monkeypox]

I got a BA in economics from south fla and it's funny because I currently make less than a teacher. My mom can have fun paying my student loans forever for forcing me through brainwashing academy all those years. I remember taking enviromental Econ and being forced to regurgitate how global warming was real and how the govt supposedly needed to sanction all natural gas and oil.

It's all a massive set up.

Your Mommy pays your Student Loans for you?

How proud you must be of yourself.

[LivingintheMatrix]

i haven't gotten into the brainwashing colleges yet, i'm currently at a community college but i do hope that i am never forced to write about such upserd beliefs

I must disagree.

If you have a 20 year old you get him or her into higher education while their minds are still expanding and fertile. 

I've met many adults down here in Florida from 20-70 and many of them are just clueless about what is going on in the world.  I was in this one class where a guy's girlfriend didn't even know what the census was.  Some still think the currency is backed by gold.  Others have no idea what the New World Order is and why I come across as being so "obsessed about it."   Then there are others who have no idea how fractional reserve banking works and wonder why they have to work 2 jobs to live.

The New World Order will fail eventually as more people wake up.  Kids will only be 20 once.  Get them in college and have them start absorbing knowledge.

Knowledge comes from taking things apart. - Wisdomcomes from bringing things together.

With great knowledge comes great power and with great power comes great responsibility.

They are the next generation teach them what it means to be responsible.

True, and once if we survive long enough some of us may end up in their seats or at their jobs and counter-react the dumbing down of the masses by teaching them whats really going on in our world.

[CaptBebops]

In this day in age there are so many fast ways of learning a field of study that colleges are almost archaic.  As a part time teacher myself I observed that over the last 50 years we have become more systematized in presenting subjects, finding ways to quickly present information and bring people up to speed plus adapt to different ways of learning.  Colleges are supposed to provide you with the tools to help earn a living not just a piece of paper so you can put some letters behind your name.  Funny thing is some organizations like the letters behind the name than actual knowledge in the head.  No wonder the corporate world is falling apart.

[PullMyFinger]

i haven't gotten into the brainwashing colleges yet, i'm currently at a community college but i do hope that i am never forced to write about such upserd beliefs

True, and once if we survive long enough some of us may end up in their seats or at their jobs and counter-react the dumbing down of the masses by teaching them whats really going on in our world.

Wait for it.My son was in a CC taking welding but was also forced to take phsycology.

[Amos]

what a truth,

you know why people go to college?

so they can work for the guy who dropped out of high school!

[Rebelitarian]

If the NWO is successful in bringing in neo-feudalism than education will be passe.

Get all the education you can while you can.

The NWO will not succeed over the long term.

Too many people are waking up their tyranny will be short term at best,

[freedom_commonsense]

In this day in age there are so many fast ways of learning a field of study that colleges are almost archaic.  As a part time teacher myself I observed that over the last 50 years we have become more systematized in presenting subjects, finding ways to quickly present information and bring people up to speed plus adapt to different ways of learning.  Colleges are supposed to provide you with the tools to help earn a living not just a piece of paper so you can put some letters behind your name.  Funny thing is some organizations like the letters behind the name than actual knowledge in the head.  No wonder the corporate world is falling apart.

Part of the reason I started an IT degree was because of the last thing you said. However, it is vocational and the tutors are good (in my opinion), although I dislike the state-managed system of funding. If I'm learning useful things like how the internet works (underlying infrastructure), and how to develop new computer systems, is that "just a piece of paper"?

[Amos]

If the NWO is successful in bringing in neo-feudalism than education will be passe.

Get all the education you can while you can.

The NWO will not succeed over the long term.

Too many people are waking up their tyranny will be short term at best,

you don't need to go to college to do that, college is designed to dumb you down

[freedom_commonsense]

you don't need to go to college to do that, college is designed to dumb you down

It's still going to cost me to run a business and comply with regulations, I'll still need a loan, in fact more so than this course which is a limited duration with a flat fee. As long as I do the work I get the certification, teaching, career support etc. I could work hard in my business and get very little as I have been for some time now - partially because of qualification bias, but also because I'm not capable of servicing large businesses who have the capital for profitable IT contracts. Something wrong with trying an alternative?

[kushfiend]

Your Mommy pays your Student Loans for you?

How proud you must be of yourself.

wow my mother helps pay my student loans, I'm 23 years old get over yourself. Why attack me because I'm in debt?? I guess it must be nice rolling in millions but the rest of us are struggling to get by. Thanks for your support.

[Monkeypox]

wow my mother helps pay my student loans, I'm 23 years old get over yourself. Why attack me because I'm in debt?? I guess it must be nice rolling in millions but the rest of us are struggling to get by. Thanks for your support.

I didn't have squat when I graduated college (and for many years after), and I spent 12 years paying off my loans - 100% by myself.  It was like a car payment every month.

Your generation is pathetic, always expecting someone else to carry you.

[freedom_commonsense]

Your generation is pathetic, always expecting someone else to carry you.

How many 20-somethings run banks and financial institutions that were bailed out? That hold us to economic ransom? You're just repeating the same nonsense every generation does - whining about the youth is a centuries old pastime.

[worcesteradam]

wow my mother helps pay my student loans, I'm 23 years old get over yourself. Why attack me because I'm in debt?? I guess it must be nice rolling in millions but the rest of us are struggling to get by. Thanks for your support.

Moneypox sounds bitter
dont let it get to you

[Monkeypox]

Moneypox sounds bitter
dont let it get to you

Yeah, but my Mommy doesn't pay my bills.

[Monkeypox]

How many 20-somethings run banks and financial institutions that were bailed out?

My guess would be ZERO.

[larsonstdoc]

My guess would be ZERO.

  Correct

[Amos]

college just sets you up to recieve slave wages, i'm sorry, it is all about make us slaves, and if you really end up learning something, then it curtains for you

[kushfiend]

Yeah, but my Mommy doesn't pay my bills.

wow hey guy I have a job and I pay my own rent, utilities and car insurance (I own my shitty car). I said in my OP that my mom helps me with my massive student loan bills (about $350 a month) because she wants to and I could use the assistance. I guess accepting that money makes me a pussy to old farts like monkey here but I could care less because I don't value people by how much money they make and/or have...

You see monkey, you are no different then the very ppl enslaving us all and for that I pity you. How blind must you be to throw dirt in my face trying to feebly insult me when you don't know anything about me or my life situation. I guess whatever it takes to boost your geritol-ridden ego, eh monkey?

[jofortruth]

I would say that students should be very selective in what they study. Make sure it's something that is needed in society. Trades fit the bill, among other things. You can always work for yourself in that capacity and not depend on others for a job.

Don't just spend your money getting a degree you won't be able to use. Be smart in your choices!

[donnay]

College does nothing but keep people in perpetual debt.  Besides I learned more out of college than I learned in.   

[Georgiacopguy]

College does nothing but keep people in perpetual debt.  Besides I learned more out of college than I learned in.   

College is also their last organized attempt aside from the the media and pop culture to brainwash you.

[TheHouseMan]

A lot of smart people in the truth movement. You'd be stupid to not get a degree, make as much money as possible, save it, and use it to build the resistance. Just play the system.

Go to college, or at least, know what career you want and the qualifications you need.

[freedom_commonsense]

College does nothing but keep people in perpetual debt.  Besides I learned more out of college than I learned in.   

Replace "college" with "school" and I agree. Self-learning the protocols holding up networks and the internet is somewhat more difficult. The 50-something tutor I have for a particular module has been through years of industry development and worked for major firms like Deutsche Bank. He's not some Marxist-wannabe idiot who only went through teacher training...

I know universities have their problems, but to dismiss all of them and all of the courses in one fell swoop is just as ignorant as believing it's perfect.

[MonkeyPuppet]

College/University offers nothing more than a structured environment.  The problem is with who controls that structure.

As for the "education" received there... it's hype for the most part.  Sure, many do benefit, but that doesn't mean everything they did happen to learn wasn't freely available for them to research on their own or among like-minded others.  Big business and corporations that either directly or indirectly base their business off of the existence of government tend to be the most demanding of degrees or other academic qualifications.  Small to medium size companies are in general not so strict, but may require that you start at the bottom if you lack experience (which is more valuable than that "education" anyway).

The days of limited access for rural or urban dwellers to literary works, advanced concepts and what may otherwise be doled out in "higher education" establishments are long gone.  EVERYTHING is at our fingertips, as are others from whom you can learn a great deal.  Pick just about any subject with practical use in the private sector that can result in an acceptable remuneration for your time, skill and energy input and you will find a vast number of resources for research as well as opportunities to get your "foot in the door", so to speak... even if it seems unrelated.

Further taxing one's sweat equity simply for having managed to enjoy a head-start due to making good use of what little university has to offer is only going to discourage attendance.  As long as more people realize those institutions are more-often-than-not unnecessary, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.  The awakening should include not only awareness of world events that truly effect each and every one of us, but also that "education" is better served by interest and enthusiasm than credential requirement.

[Geolibertarian]

I know universities have their problems, but to dismiss all of them and all of the courses in one fell swoop is just as ignorant as believing it's perfect.

True, but at the same time there's no disputing that colleges in general have become glorified debt traps for virtually anyone who doesn't come from an exceptionally wealthy family:

       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_24uSPedM

And therein lies the irony: a college degree is supposedly the means by which one becomes financially independent, yet in many if not most cases, people have to sacrifice that very independence on the altar of astronomical student debt in order to get that degree.

[freedom_commonsense]

College/University offers nothing more than a structured environment.  The problem is with who controls that structure.

As for the "education" received there... it's hype for the most part.  Sure, many do benefit, but that doesn't mean everything they did happen to learn wasn't freely available for them to research on their own or among like-minded others.  Big business and corporations that either directly or indirectly base their business off of the existence of government tend to be the most demanding of degrees or other academic qualifications.  Small to medium size companies are in general not so strict, but may require that you start at the bottom if you lack experience (which is more valuable than that "education" anyway).

The days of limited access for rural or urban dwellers to literary works, advanced concepts and what may otherwise be doled out in "higher education" establishments are long gone.  EVERYTHING is at our fingertips, as are others from whom you can learn a great deal. Pick just about any subject with practical use in the private sector that can result in an acceptable remuneration for your time, skill and energy input and you will find a vast number of resources for research as well as opportunities to get your "foot in the door", so to speak... even if it seems unrelated.

Further taxing one's sweat equity simply for having managed to enjoy a head-start due to making good use of what little university has to offer is only going to discourage attendance.  As long as more people realize those institutions are more-often-than-not unnecessary, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.  The awakening should include not only awareness of world events that truly effect each and every one of us, but also that "education" is better served by interest and enthusiasm than credential requirement.

Well, when you're competing against the 30-50% of locals that have degrees you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. I appreciate your point, and the qualification mania is getting to silly levels (a degree being required for a $15,000 administration job) but what else do you suggest? I'm not eligible for unemployment benefits and I'd be booted out very quickly with no means to pay rent...self employment is not producing a steady income and I've exhausted most charitable options.

My experience alone isn't getting me anywhere, or I wouldn't be needing to make this difficult choice. I spent months back in 2009 arguing with people about the financial cost and agonising over whether it was the right thing to do.

The sentence of yours I bolded is exactly what I kept in mind while choosing a course - at least in theory, looking at the contracts being offered, I have the potential to at least triple my income (from the mind-numbing warehouse work which was the last steady income I had).

And therein lies the irony: a college degree is supposedly the means by which one becomes financially independent, yet in many if not most cases, people have to sacrifice that very independence on the altar of astronomical student debt in order to get that degree.

The repayment terms for what I borrowed are soft compared to a bank loan. I pay 9% of my income above a certain amount. It gets cancelled after 25 years, or if you retire. You could even in theory go abroad and disappear, never paying it back. The interest rate is currently zero.

As I said above, it's a calculated risk.

[ES]

I didn't have squat when I graduated college (and for many years after), and I spent 12 years paying off my loans - 100% by myself.  It was like a car payment every month.

Your generation is pathetic, always expecting someone else to carry you.

Hey Monkey can I borrow a few of your millions from you or do you need them to roll around in this weekend. 

[kushfiend]

Hey Monkey can I borrow a few of your millions from you or do you need them to roll around in this weekend. 

+1 awesome post. Monkey is too busy making fun of others struggling to get by to loan out his money. Actually, he really reminds me of ebeneezer Scrooge, too rich for his own good.  Monkey now views ppl w/o millions like his old ass as weak and pathetic. It's funny because I've often wondered how the rich are able to delude themselves into thinking they are so much better than everyone else, and monkey just provided a glimpse into that window

[CaptBebops]

Part of the reason I started an IT degree was because of the last thing you said. However, it is vocational and the tutors are good (in my opinion), although I dislike the state-managed system of funding. If I'm learning useful things like how the internet works (underlying infrastructure), and how to develop new computer systems, is that "just a piece of paper"?

I went to college to learn things and not get a piece of paper.  There will be experts you can learn from in colleges.  You are lucky you have someone with actual experience teaching.  Back in the 1980s when I headed up a computer club the local college computer science prof would shake if I asked him a question because I had actual programming experience and had shipped product.   It took until the mid-1990s for a lot of colleges to teach worthwhile computer classes.  They learned that graduating students who could program in Pascal wasn't very useful anymore.

And depending on the individual a lot of stuff can be learned from books.  I am self-taught in computers but wound up teaching programming as well as managing programmers.  I would hire college grads at the junior programmer level but would often hire self-taught people at a higher level who had a portfolio of software they could show you and explain what they did.   Those were people who could get the job done and also help mentor the entry level junior programmers.