|
Viper
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2010, 12:20:35 AM » |
|
 Strange position of liberty's head in this t-shirt, reminiscent of the masons apron. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2010, 09:34:06 PM » |
|
I can say from the position of a graphic designer, an audiophile, a musician, and hopefully (and eventually) an apprentice tattooist, that ya'll are mostly looking too hard into it.
Blue Eagle.) The words appear to be written in a Germanic pattern, but the only recognizable word in the whole lot is "leit" (lead), as well as "Die" ("the, in regards to female- or plural-gendered things", but it shouldn't be capitalized)... but the word after "Die" is "uinb", which is gibberish. I would bet it's nothing more than nonsense, akin to a German-appearing version of the Lorem Ipsum. And the star is to evoke the feeling of "rock *star*" (as opposed to a "rock roadie" or "rock cover band"...). The stars are inverted to draw the eyes down to the important part of the artwork: the body of the guitar; the other stars are drawn 'proper' to draw the eyes up and out into the signature (and unfortunately, I can't tell whose signature it is).
Skater Guitars.) ...And? So what if the guitars are pointy. Guitars in heavy music are often pointy, such as the Flying V, the Warlock, the Ironbird, the Beast, the Stealth (need I go into why a guitar is called an "axe"?)... Amps are used to play heavy music loudly... people skate to loud, pounding, heavy music. What am I missing here?
Chequed Wing.) Checkered patterns tend to evoke a sense of 50's Art Deco, which seems appropriate with the style of guitar chosen (a typical Fender-style electric guitar shape used in blues and early rock 'n roll, music styles iconic to that era). I'll state here and now that I have no clue as to why everyone uses the fleur-de-lis in the distressed look, beyond the fact that *genuinely* distressed things tend to involve things like wrought iron, fleur-de-lis, and 'haunted' plantations and mansions in New Orleans (or New Orleans Square at Disneyland). It has become a bit of a stereotype in iconography of "wear and tear from age", so much so that you'd think it was part of every package of brushes Photoshop users use. Again, most of the words I can read seem to be gibberish... the only word I can both make out and recognize as a word is "durch" (through), but I've not a clue what the rest of the word says because of the neck covering up a letter or two.
Cross.) Those are "heads", not "necks"..., you can only see the neck on the extended vertical portions. That one, yeah, I have a problem with. But, you have to consider the history of hard rock and metal, how many artists wore crosses, particularly because of Ozzy Osbourne. The hybrid cross-guitar points neither to Christ, nor to Satan, but rather, to rock and metal. As for the central icon, the skull and crossed-thighbones has meant "death" long before "Skull and Bones" was created, at very least by 200 years. And, well, metal is stereotypically all about death, so no surprise there.
"Pentagrams".) They're not pentagrams, they're pentacles. But it still follows the stereotyping of heavy metal music as being Satanic. (the irony... as I type that, I'm listening to Creeping Death by Metallica, a song that tells of the Passover).
Fleur-de-Wings.) Wings and feathers are a common tattoo choice. They are easy to draw, and cool to look at. Plop in some fleur-de-lis, and you have a recipe for yet-another-crappy-flash-tat-put-on-a-t-shirt.
Dark Star.) You really should be seeing a pattern here. These shirts are like the concept of "tramp stamps" and "tribal tattoos". The only reason people make them, is because people eat them up like crazy. ...but as for this one, they can't even draw very well. Ugh.
Dragons.) Eastern Dragons are different from Middle-Eastern or Western Dragons, in the sense that they are composite creatures (that are more akin to lions and fish than lizards) that are generally benevolent (or at very least, indifferent) symbols of the four elements, as opposed to being reptiles of fire and destruction. (...hey, even to us Westerners, a dog is "man's best friend", even despite the Bible's description of them as being worthless, disgusting, and foolish creatures).
Guitar and wing.) /facepalm. That's a *Flying* V guitar. I would be scratching my head at their artistic and musical influences if they put anything *other* than a wing, an airplane, or a bird there.
Destruction.) I would assume it means "destroy by man-made or natural methods".
Royal Crown.) Once again, Flying V. The crown evokes the imagery of "Britain", thus implying "The British Invasion" and "NWOBHM" (New Wave Of British Heavy Metal), that is, British musical acts that saw mainstream success in America, like The Beatles, Black Sabbath, Motörhead, King Diamond, Tom Jones, The Moody Blues, The Rolling Stones, Herman's Hermits, etc.
Skull.) I'm almost tempted to say they lifted those patterns off my baby blanket. But, yeah, it's a skull.
Longhorn Steer.) It has nothing to do with Baphomet, as that's not a goat, it's a Longhorn steer. That's also not a square and compass, that's the standard Old-English calligraphic capital letter "A" (same as "US of" is also in standard Old-English calligraphy). There is a semi-circle below the rays of light, indicating the rising sun... all of which, btw, are common motifs in late 1800-early 1900 product advertisements.
Honor and Conquer.) Not a whole lot to say about those two.
Medieval pic.) It plays on typical medieval art on Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell, put into a modern satire form.
Last one.) Yeah, that one speaks enough for itself, I don't need to put my 2 cents in.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
Jackson Holly
|
|
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2010, 06:20:01 AM » |
|
Seraphim, I would agree that some of the above designs are
clip-art derived 'Masonic-light' ... and that there is nothing new
and shocking about Satanic imagery in R&R. But, when you see
almost nothing but this stuff, on everybody from newborns to
gramps-on-his-harley, you gotta take notice. Coupled with masonic
tattoos everywhere you look, Satanic/alchemical-themed books
for pre-teens everywhere you look ... movies, TV shows, games,
jewelry, toys, comics, music videos, tennis shoes, sports equipment,
clothes, billboards ... the culture is AWASH in Satanic imagery.
If I see one more toddler wearing a skull~and~bones onesie I swear
I am going postal!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ex_nihilo
|
|
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2010, 06:39:33 AM » |
|
Seraphim, I would agree that some of the above designs are
clip-art derived 'Masonic-light' ... and that there is nothing new
and shocking about Satanic imagery in R&R. But, when you see
almost nothing but this stuff, on everybody from newborns to
gramps-on-his-harley, you gotta take notice. Coupled with masonic
tattoos everywhere you look, Satanic/alchemical-themed books
for pre-teens everywhere you look ... movies, TV shows, games,
jewelry, toys, comics, music videos, tennis shoes, sports equipment,
clothes, billboards ... the culture is AWASH in Satanic imagery.
If I see one more toddler wearing a skull~and~bones onesie I swear
I am going postal!
+1 This would be the gist of any reply I would have composed. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
An open mind, like an open wound, is prone to infection. -ex_nihilo
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2010, 12:32:17 PM » |
|
I can say from the position of a graphic designer, an audiophile, a musician, and hopefully (and eventually) an apprentice tattooist, that ya'll are mostly looking too hard into it.
Blue Eagle.) The words appear to be written in a Germanic pattern, but the only recognizable word in the whole lot is "leit" (lead), as well as "Die" ("the, in regards to female- or plural-gendered things", but it shouldn't be capitalized)... but the word after "Die" is "uinb", which is gibberish. I would bet it's nothing more than nonsense, akin to a German-appearing version of the Lorem Ipsum. And the star is to evoke the feeling of "rock *star*" (as opposed to a "rock roadie" or "rock cover band"...). The stars are inverted to draw the eyes down to the important part of the artwork: the body of the guitar; the other stars are drawn 'proper' to draw the eyes up and out into the signature (and unfortunately, I can't tell whose signature it is).
Skater Guitars.) ...And? So what if the guitars are pointy. Guitars in heavy music are often pointy, such as the Flying V, the Warlock, the Ironbird, the Beast, the Stealth (need I go into why a guitar is called an "axe"?)... Amps are used to play heavy music loudly... people skate to loud, pounding, heavy music. What am I missing here?
Chequed Wing.) Checkered patterns tend to evoke a sense of 50's Art Deco, which seems appropriate with the style of guitar chosen (a typical Fender-style electric guitar shape used in blues and early rock 'n roll, music styles iconic to that era). I'll state here and now that I have no clue as to why everyone uses the fleur-de-lis in the distressed look, beyond the fact that *genuinely* distressed things tend to involve things like wrought iron, fleur-de-lis, and 'haunted' plantations and mansions in New Orleans (or New Orleans Square at Disneyland). It has become a bit of a stereotype in iconography of "wear and tear from age", so much so that you'd think it was part of every package of brushes Photoshop users use. Again, most of the words I can read seem to be gibberish... the only word I can both make out and recognize as a word is "durch" (through), but I've not a clue what the rest of the word says because of the neck covering up a letter or two.
Cross.) Those are "heads", not "necks"..., you can only see the neck on the extended vertical portions. That one, yeah, I have a problem with. But, you have to consider the history of hard rock and metal, how many artists wore crosses, particularly because of Ozzy Osbourne. The hybrid cross-guitar points neither to Christ, nor to Satan, but rather, to rock and metal. As for the central icon, the skull and crossed-thighbones has meant "death" long before "Skull and Bones" was created, at very least by 200 years. And, well, metal is stereotypically all about death, so no surprise there.
"Pentagrams".) They're not pentagrams, they're pentacles. But it still follows the stereotyping of heavy metal music as being Satanic. (the irony... as I type that, I'm listening to Creeping Death by Metallica, a song that tells of the Passover).
Fleur-de-Wings.) Wings and feathers are a common tattoo choice. They are easy to draw, and cool to look at. Plop in some fleur-de-lis, and you have a recipe for yet-another-crappy-flash-tat-put-on-a-t-shirt.
Dark Star.) You really should be seeing a pattern here. These shirts are like the concept of "tramp stamps" and "tribal tattoos". The only reason people make them, is because people eat them up like crazy. ...but as for this one, they can't even draw very well. Ugh.
Dragons.) Eastern Dragons are different from Middle-Eastern or Western Dragons, in the sense that they are composite creatures (that are more akin to lions and fish than lizards) that are generally benevolent (or at very least, indifferent) symbols of the four elements, as opposed to being reptiles of fire and destruction. (...hey, even to us Westerners, a dog is "man's best friend", even despite the Bible's description of them as being worthless, disgusting, and foolish creatures).
Guitar and wing.) /facepalm. That's a *Flying* V guitar. I would be scratching my head at their artistic and musical influences if they put anything *other* than a wing, an airplane, or a bird there.
Destruction.) I would assume it means "destroy by man-made or natural methods".
Royal Crown.) Once again, Flying V. The crown evokes the imagery of "Britain", thus implying "The British Invasion" and "NWOBHM" (New Wave Of British Heavy Metal), that is, British musical acts that saw mainstream success in America, like The Beatles, Black Sabbath, Motörhead, King Diamond, Tom Jones, The Moody Blues, The Rolling Stones, Herman's Hermits, etc.
Skull.) I'm almost tempted to say they lifted those patterns off my baby blanket. But, yeah, it's a skull.
Longhorn Steer.) It has nothing to do with Baphomet, as that's not a goat, it's a Longhorn steer. That's also not a square and compass, that's the standard Old-English calligraphic capital letter "A" (same as "US of" is also in standard Old-English calligraphy). There is a semi-circle below the rays of light, indicating the rising sun... all of which, btw, are common motifs in late 1800-early 1900 product advertisements.
Honor and Conquer.) Not a whole lot to say about those two.
Medieval pic.) It plays on typical medieval art on Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell, put into a modern satire form.
Last one.) Yeah, that one speaks enough for itself, I don't need to put my 2 cents in.
On this issue , this post is the height of good sense , thank you. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
Brocke
Eleutherophiliac & Drapetomaniac
Global Moderator
Member
 Offline
Posts: 9,403
I am not a number, I am a free man!
|
|
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2010, 12:57:34 PM » |
|
I can say from the position of a graphic designer, an audiophile, a musician, and hopefully (and eventually) an apprentice tattooist, that ya'll are mostly looking too hard into it...
As Graphic Designers we communicate with symbols. Every symbol has multiple meanings, including occult meanings. In Christianity feathers represent virtues. The image of three feathers symbolize Charity, hope, and faith. In "pagan" beliefs feathers often represent "sky gods". Feathers often represent; Truth, Speed, Lightness, Flight, Ascension. The fleur de lis or "lily flower" has consistently been used as a royal emblem. It often represents "female virtue and spirituality" Again in Roman Catholic symbolism it is associated with the Holy Trinity, with the band on the bottom symbolizing Mary. Bearing a likeness to the lotus flower and similarities to the trident the fleur de lis is an ancient occult symbol. As a designer you should care what you are communicating even if that meaning is unintentional or hidden. It is a responsibility. If you tattooed a sentence in English on a persons back the words have meaning and context and you need to make sure those words convey the message the wearer intents. So it is with symbols. We need to take responsibility for the messages we convey and not just design pretty pictures. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. ~Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2010, 01:46:47 PM » |
|
We as observers apply the meaning to a symbol , if one is unaware of the supposed "occult" meaning than the supposed effect of the symbol is zero.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
Brocke
Eleutherophiliac & Drapetomaniac
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Posts: 9,403
I am not a number, I am a free man!
|
|
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2010, 04:45:53 AM » |
|
We as observers apply the meaning to a symbol , if one is unaware of the supposed "occult" meaning than the supposed effect of the symbol is zero.
One who chooses not to read has no advantage over one who can't. (to paraphrase Mark Twain) I'm not referring to any spooky magickal effect or bad juju. I'm talking about understanding symbols and using them in their proper context. Creating a design to merely be pretty without any meaning is pornographic in my opinion. It's just eye candy and not worth the time it took to create. Meaning is everything.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. ~Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2010, 04:43:12 PM » |
|
I rather think this whole bit is nothing but paranoia born from a Christian point of view , in order to enhance the victim status and the "Good" V "Evil" BS paradigm. There's actually nothing more to this "occult" conspiracy than tactics which historically have no basis beyond what some "conspiracy theorist" has proposed. Just like the satanic panic of the eighties which was utterly fabricated on all fronts. Every court case in that era about satanism was thrown out due to complete lack of evidence.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
Brocke
Eleutherophiliac & Drapetomaniac
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Posts: 9,403
I am not a number, I am a free man!
|
|
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2010, 06:20:44 PM » |
|
I rather think this whole bit is nothing but paranoia born from a Christian point of view , in order to enhance the victim status and the "Good" V "Evil" BS paradigm. There's actually nothing more to this "occult" conspiracy than tactics which historically have no basis beyond what some "conspiracy theorist" has proposed. Just like the satanic panic of the eighties which was utterly fabricated on all fronts. Every court case in that era about satanism was thrown out due to complete lack of evidence.
"paranoia born from a Christian point of view" Well, there is that. Of course, taking the opposite position is probably incorrect as well. If you don't believe in the power of symbols that's cool. As a Graphic Designer I am convinced they do contain an inate vibrational influence...but I would wouldn't I. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. ~Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2010, 08:18:37 PM » |
|
"paranoia born from a Christian point of view" Well, there is that. Of course, taking the opposite position is probably incorrect as well. If you don't believe in the power of symbols that's cool. As a Graphic Designer I am convinced they do contain an inate vibrational influence...but I would wouldn't I. I believe symbols can have power only if you know the intention to begin with , upon seeing it at that point the perception of the meaning can resonate for an observer , beyond that I don't think the average observer is influenced by something they are unaware of. If I know nothing of science , and am constantly seeing the symbol for mercury , I won;t have a clue what it means and will only have significance if I seek out it's meaning. I also feel that the opposite of a christian view is actually just reasoned thinking. I believe in God myself though I believe this as well: "Belief in God is faith , belief about God is religion" |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
|
el midgetron
|
|
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2010, 11:24:55 PM » |
|
One who chooses not to read has no advantage over one who can't. (to paraphrase Mark Twain) I'm not referring to any spooky magickal effect or bad juju. I'm talking about understanding symbols and using them in their proper context. Creating a design to merely be pretty without any meaning is pornographic in my opinion. It's just eye candy and not worth the time it took to create. Meaning is everything. [/quote Good shit man!! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2010, 05:04:04 PM » |
|
As Graphic Designers we communicate with symbols. Every symbol has multiple meanings, including occult meanings.
...
As a designer you should care what you are communicating even if that meaning is unintentional or hidden. It is a responsibility. If you tattooed a sentence in English on a persons back the words have meaning and context and you need to make sure those words convey the message the wearer intents. So it is with symbols. We need to take responsibility for the messages we convey and not just design pretty pictures.
People realize basic symbols, "skull and crossbones = death, poison, or pirates", "bolt of lightning = electricity", "bald eagle = freedom". Going deeper, and feeling someone supports "Skull and Bones" when they wear clothing that bears a skull and crossbones is absurd. They aren't wearing it because of Skull and Bones, but rather, "it is a death symbol, and death symbols are worn by bada$$es, so I'll wear it because I am/want-to-be a bada$$ too". Symbols are romanticized to the public... people see "the jolly roger", but don't think "torture, rape, theft, the miseries of vitamin C deficiency, and false flag operations under orders of the European governments", nor do they think of a "cookbook", but rather, they think "Capt. Jack Sparrow, yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum, skeletons with cutlasses, avast ye scurvy dogs, and buried treasure". Back when I first started using Photoshop, I wanted to draw a still-life of a basket of fruits and veggies. It was intended for a game that was being developed, so I needed to make it small. I spent a week drawing it, putting in incredible detail on it. When I was done, I changed it into the custom file format that was being used, and in the process, it got resized to something incredibly tiny. Every grain in the ear of corn blurred together, the seeds within the strawberry were no longer visible, the shine upon the grapes warped the color of the grapes. Despite all of the pixels I knew were there in the original picture, in the eyes of the public, none of that existed. Those who got to see it, saw a yellow blob and thought "I think that's an ear of corn", a purple-red blob and thought "a bunch of red grapes" (instead of purple grapes with magenta highlights), a red blob and thought "a small apple" (and not "a strawberry"). So it is with symbolism. Despite what intents the designer makes, the more that people see it the more people will make of it what they will, regardless of original intent... The "smaller" the designer's original intents become, the less relevant they are in "the bigger picture". I mean, to you, what does this symbol mean: {(_!_)} ...most people who frequent 4chan (or have been corrupted in some way by 4chan) would see that as being mooned with the butt waving around, and the "average joe" can't make heads or tails out of it without being told what it means, but apparently that means "low tire pressure" in cars... When emoticons cease to exist, then the "mooning" understanding of it will cease to matter. Ford or Chevy aren't trying to moon us, they're just using what they believe looks like a flat tire. A black cat to Americans is very unlucky symbol, but to the Japanese, it is very lucky. So, who is right? Both and neither. Me personally, I like Bombay cats because they are pretty, and not because they are lucky or unlucky. On that note, many artists and genres thrive on eye candy... I mean, I wouldn't exactly consider webpage design, portraits, still-life, or impressionism to be that friendly towards symbolism. But, regardless as to what you or I feel about symbols as individuals, it does not affect what the public feels about them. If they want eye candy, then they will buy eye candy. If they want symbols, they will buy symbols. Everything can be a symbol, or everything can be just decoration... it is all dependent upon the artist and the viewer whether it is or it isn't. @ Kilgore... I wouldn't say a "Christian point of view", but rather "the over-sensitive neocon uber-conservative Pharisaical Christian point of view". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
ekimdrachir
|
|
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2010, 05:27:33 PM » |
|
Ive seen FEDERAL RESERVE hoodies being worn by wannabe gangsters with the all seeing eye and everything, and you can bet they just think its "cool". Theres another one with Ben Franklin (?) and the federal reserve stuff. Bling bling yo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2010, 06:33:49 PM » |
|
People realize basic symbols, "skull and crossbones = death, poison, or pirates", "bolt of lightning = electricity", "bald eagle = freedom". Going deeper, and feeling someone supports "Skull and Bones" when they wear clothing that bears a skull and crossbones is absurd. They aren't wearing it because of Skull and Bones, but rather, "it is a death symbol, and death symbols are worn by bada$$es, so I'll wear it because I am/want-to-be a bada$$ too". Symbols are romanticized to the public... people see "the jolly roger", but don't think "torture, rape, theft, the miseries of vitamin C deficiency, and false flag operations under orders of the European governments", nor do they think of a "cookbook", but rather, they think "Capt. Jack Sparrow, yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum, skeletons with cutlasses, avast ye scurvy dogs, and buried treasure".
Back when I first started using Photoshop, I wanted to draw a still-life of a basket of fruits and veggies. It was intended for a game that was being developed, so I needed to make it small. I spent a week drawing it, putting in incredible detail on it. When I was done, I changed it into the custom file format that was being used, and in the process, it got resized to something incredibly tiny. Every grain in the ear of corn blurred together, the seeds within the strawberry were no longer visible, the shine upon the grapes warped the color of the grapes. Despite all of the pixels I knew were there in the original picture, in the eyes of the public, none of that existed. Those who got to see it, saw a yellow blob and thought "I think that's an ear of corn", a purple-red blob and thought "a bunch of red grapes" (instead of purple grapes with magenta highlights), a red blob and thought "a small apple" (and not "a strawberry"). So it is with symbolism. Despite what intents the designer makes, the more that people see it the more people will make of it what they will, regardless of original intent... The "smaller" the designer's original intents become, the less relevant they are in "the bigger picture". I mean, to you, what does this symbol mean: {(_!_)} ...most people who frequent 4chan (or have been corrupted in some way by 4chan) would see that as being mooned with the butt waving around, and the "average joe" can't make heads or tails out of it without being told what it means, but apparently that means "low tire pressure" in cars... When emoticons cease to exist, then the "mooning" understanding of it will cease to matter. Ford or Chevy aren't trying to moon us, they're just using what they believe looks like a flat tire.
A black cat to Americans is very unlucky symbol, but to the Japanese, it is very lucky. So, who is right? Both and neither. Me personally, I like Bombay cats because they are pretty, and not because they are lucky or unlucky. On that note, many artists and genres thrive on eye candy... I mean, I wouldn't exactly consider webpage design, portraits, still-life, or impressionism to be that friendly towards symbolism. But, regardless as to what you or I feel about symbols as individuals, it does not affect what the public feels about them. If they want eye candy, then they will buy eye candy. If they want symbols, they will buy symbols. Everything can be a symbol, or everything can be just decoration... it is all dependent upon the artist and the viewer whether it is or it isn't.
@ Kilgore... I wouldn't say a "Christian point of view", but rather "the over-sensitive neocon uber-conservative Pharisaical Christian point of view".
I'm sure you're right because you seem very "liberal" for a "Christian" as opposed to what I've seen here. Not so much liberal but reasonable.. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2010, 08:26:15 PM » |
|
I'm sure you're right because you seem very "liberal" for a "Christian" as opposed to what I've seen here. Not so much liberal but reasonable..
Hehehe, thank you. Hey, God put me here to serve, and I can't serve anyone if I'm stubborn and can't see things how others see 'em. ^_^ I mean, going back to the 80's, I remember that whole Satanic scare thing... Look at the whole thing on backmasking. If a certain phrase gives a backmasked phrase (like "Spongebob Squarepants" played backwards can be heard as "Snow froze Bob, yes"), it doesn't matter who you are, the words will always sound like that given the same intonation (I mean, I saw something on Barack Obama a month ago or so, and it said something like "Satan loves you" or some BS like that, so I went and recorded myself saying the same line, and sure enough, my own words said the same thing)... it's not Satanic, it's the same thing as seeing shapes in a cloud, you hear what you believe or want to hear, and that's the only thing you wind up hearing from those sounds. Then there was the D&D thing, which was a farce, as D&D is nothing more than "rules on how to play cops and robbers, but with knights, wizards, and dragons instead". But because people didn't take the time to look into either of them, it turned into a panic that seemingly affected everyone, and then into one gloriously absurd witch hunt for teens and geeks who like to hide in their basements. I'll be honest, I would bet $5 (if I had it) that in everyone's house, there is some occult, NWO, or subliminal symbol on it that you don't know about. I don't mean like Eye of Horus, or rising sun, or unfinished pyramid... (looking around at the crap on my desk...) Got Sam's Cola? Occult (white magic pentacle). Wrangler cigarettes? Subliminal (phallus). Crayola crayons? Occult and NWO (names, icons, examples). Acco paper clips? Occult (moon icon). Starcraft 2? Occult (eagle icon). Counterstrike? NWO (skin origins). Premium Remanufactured Ink Cartridge? Occult and NWO (logos). HP computer? Subliminal (logo). The absolutely random pits on my desk from wear and tear from not using a mousepad? Yup, I got half-a-dozen occult symbols in there. Doesn't matter where you look, you can find an "evil symbol" no matter where, if you look hard enough and think "It looks like a...". We're just surrounded in it, and there is no escape. Thing is, the escape is there if one simply stops caring. There is only one symbol that can hurt us- 666 affecting our hand or our head (even on a metaphorical level, permitting the will of man, instead of the will of God, affecting our thoughts and deeds). Everything else is meaningless and harmless beyond that which we permit a meaning to. Ain't no idols: only carved rocks and metals; ain't no unclean foods: only an unclean heart and mind; ain't no evil symbols: only evil thoughts and deeds. In the end, it's all about spreading the truth... and sometimes the truth only comes out when you stop caring about the little things, like symbols or taxes, and start caring about the big things, like rights and lives. Sometimes... apathy ftw. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2010, 08:59:59 PM » |
|
Hehehe, thank you. Hey, God put me here to serve, and I can't serve anyone if I'm stubborn and can't see things how others see 'em. ^_^
I mean, going back to the 80's, I remember that whole Satanic scare thing... Look at the whole thing on backmasking. If a certain phrase gives a backmasked phrase (like "Spongebob Squarepants" played backwards can be heard as "Snow froze Bob, yes"), it doesn't matter who you are, the words will always sound like that given the same intonation (I mean, I saw something on Barack Obama a month ago or so, and it said something like "Satan loves you" or some BS like that, so I went and recorded myself saying the same line, and sure enough, my own words said the same thing)... it's not Satanic, it's the same thing as seeing shapes in a cloud, you hear what you believe or want to hear, and that's the only thing you wind up hearing from those sounds. Then there was the D&D thing, which was a farce, as D&D is nothing more than "rules on how to play cops and robbers, but with knights, wizards, and dragons instead". But because people didn't take the time to look into either of them, it turned into a panic that seemingly affected everyone, and then into one gloriously absurd witch hunt for teens and geeks who like to hide in their basements.
I'll be honest, I would bet $5 (if I had it) that in everyone's house, there is some occult, NWO, or subliminal symbol on it that you don't know about. I don't mean like Eye of Horus, or rising sun, or unfinished pyramid... (looking around at the crap on my desk...) Got Sam's Cola? Occult (white magic pentacle). Wrangler cigarettes? Subliminal (phallus). Crayola crayons? Occult and NWO (names, icons, examples). Acco paper clips? Occult (moon icon). Starcraft 2? Occult (eagle icon). Counterstrike? NWO (skin origins). Premium Remanufactured Ink Cartridge? Occult and NWO (logos). HP computer? Subliminal (logo). The absolutely random pits on my desk from wear and tear from not using a mousepad? Yup, I got half-a-dozen occult symbols in there. Doesn't matter where you look, you can find an "evil symbol" no matter where, if you look hard enough and think "It looks like a...". We're just surrounded in it, and there is no escape. Thing is, the escape is there if one simply stops caring. There is only one symbol that can hurt us- 666 affecting our hand or our head (even on a metaphorical level, permitting the will of man, instead of the will of God, affecting our thoughts and deeds). Everything else is meaningless and harmless beyond that which we permit a meaning to. Ain't no idols: only carved rocks and metals; ain't no unclean foods: only an unclean heart and mind; ain't no evil symbols: only evil thoughts and deeds.
In the end, it's all about spreading the truth... and sometimes the truth only comes out when you stop caring about the little things, like symbols or taxes, and start caring about the big things, like rights and lives. Sometimes... apathy ftw.
I agree , though i think most of the fundimentalists would take issue with your outlook. but for me you make sense ,I tried to say something similar , in that symbols are only there to be intepreted by the observer. They are only dangerous if the person observing them reads that into them. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2010, 03:07:45 AM » |
|
I agree , though i think most of the fundimentalists would take issue with your outlook. but for me you make sense ,I tried to say something similar , in that symbols are only there to be intepreted by the observer. They are only dangerous if the person observing them reads that into them.
True, but the thing is, is one can't point out the sliver in someone's eye, when they've got a log in their own, ya know? Because it's so pervasive, sure, it's easy to point out the inverted star on a shirt... but you willing to cut up that Shell gas card, or switch brands of cola or lunchmeat, for the same reason? And where does it stop? Do you examine your favorite musicians? Your job? Your house? Look hard enough, and you'll see there's nothing left that hasn't been touched... and all you can do is curl up in the dust, eat the crickets off the ground, and drink the rain from the sky. That's one qualm I have with the "neocon Fundies", because I actually tried to purge myself of everything of a pagan or evil origin. While I learned a lesson in "material things don't matter" (and another lesson in "always use safety goggles when breaking fragile things with a hammer"), I also came to realize that if I didn't stop at some point, I wouldn't even have clothes on my back. Legalism in any form does nothing but cause misery, as it takes away the freedom to do good while preventing the ability to do evil... it is "prejudice against action"... thoughtcrime prevention, in a sense. ...The Antichrist is evil, and so is his mark; legalism says "allowing any symbol on your head or hand is evil, because you might take the mark and not realize it... thus, you cannot have any marks on your body, because one might accidentally get on your hand... you cannot get cut on your body, because cuts leave marks... you cannot ride a bike because falls off a bike leaves cuts..."... the whole point of "willfully choosing evil" is lost over the possibility of a scraped knee. It is the same way with worrying over symbols- The NWO, pagans, and Masons use the "eye" symbol, therefore, all eye symbols are evil... all eye symbols are evil, thus I will not go to the optometrist... the optometrist is evil for using an eye symbol, but other doctors use evil symbols too, so I won't see a doctor... In the end, what matters is, "Do you choose good or evil?", no symbol can make you evil, nor can any symbol make you good- you must be that way of your own volition. At best, you can only be affected by a symbol if you choose to be. To misquote Elenor Roosevelt, "Nobody can make you good or evil without your permission". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2010, 02:54:20 PM » |
|
Much respect to you Seraphim , the rare and elusive reasonable Christian.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2010, 05:53:30 PM » |
|
Much respect to you Seraphim , the rare and elusive reasonable Christian.
Thank you, but it's not me... I just nutshell what God says. Give the respect to the One who gave me something worthwhile to say. ^_^ Besides, I have my unreasonable side too. I refuse to eat cauliflower or sufu, or touch moldy bread. ^_^ |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2010, 07:08:33 PM » |
|
Thank you, but it's not me... I just nutshell what God says. Give the respect to the One who gave me something worthwhile to say. ^_^
Besides, I have my unreasonable side too. I refuse to eat cauliflower or sufu, or touch moldy bread. ^_^
I wonder how it is then that your understanding of things seems so much more reasoned than most of the fundamentalist set...? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2010, 10:00:01 PM » |
|
I wonder how it is then that your understanding of things seems so much more reasoned than most of the fundamentalist set...?
Well, I've seen all sides of just about everything... I'm ambidexterous; repentant bisexual; been Christian, Satanist, atheist, agnostic, gnostic, and seemingly everything else inbetween...; lived in the desert, lived by the bay, and lived in the forest; been rich and been poor; caused and received suffering; had hundreds of friends when I wanted none, and had no friends when I wanted some; have family who are white, black, latino, asian (okay, actually Polynesian, but still...), Jew, and Gentile; been on both sides of the law... my life has been one walking example of "extremes". There is little left for me to judge based on appearances only (spiders, bees, wasps, and other poisonous/scary creepy crawlies are about it, and that falls under my "unreasonable" side... I </3 ugly bugs). So, I've had to learn to judge by experience and thorough understanding. As Paul said, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." (1 Cor. 9:19-23) After that, I sat down and actually read the Bible, cover to cover (well, admittedly, I have never gotten through Numbers, I keep falling asleep). As a kid, I used to have a photographic memory (which took a sudden nose dive when I started smoking, and now I honestly can't remember what I ate for breakfast), but occasionally I'd have flashes of insight where if I was reading "this book, that chapter", something would 'click', and I'd remember something in the front of the Bible that would put 2+2 together... I would understand, "oooh, okay, *this* is why it says 'Thou shalt not...'", or whatnot. God is called "Our Father" for a reason... And I realized that, just like the ideal earthly dad, God didn't say "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not" without a good reason, just as I don't tell my kids "Don't put your finger in the light socket" without having a good reason either. And generally that reason is, "Do it to make your life easier" and "Don't do it, or you're gonna get yourself sick, hurt, or killed". In time, I came to realize that the Law is meant to act as a mirror to our souls, not as a spotlight to others' souls. I realized that, in my heart, I was a liar, a murderer, a thief, an adultress, an abomination, arrogant, selfish... amongst a great many other vile things... and that I deserved every bit of punishment due unto me. In the sight of God, I am wretched, vile... unto the point where God would probably rather step in dog poo, than deal with me. I deserved Hell as much, if not more than everyone else who has walked the face of this earth. ...But God is loving. As much as I deserved it, He doesn't want me to experience Hell... and truth be told, realizing just how disgusting a creature I was, was Hell enough... Yet, God gave His life up for *me*. I didn't deserve it, and there was nothing I could have done to earn it, for what good is giving up all my "green bits of paper" when the streets of Heaven are paved in gold? What good is a single act of kindness, when God does a huge act of kindness every day just by permitting the sun to rise once again upon the earth? Yet, forgiveness is a gift freely given, all that requires of it is to accept it. The only condition to accepting it is that I learn to forgive too, because everyone else in the world is just as wretched as I am, in their own unique ways. Everyone wants a second chance, just as I so desperately wanted a second chance... so I should give it to them. Everyone wants to be understood... so understand them. Everyone wants mercy... give it to them. Everyone wants help when it is needed... help them when it's good to help. All everyone really wants... from the racists, to the gangbangers, to the bikers, to the cowboys, to the murderers, to the thieves, to the moms, to the dads, to the kids, to the elders... all everyone really wants... is to live their lives in peace. Give the peace of Jesus Christ to them. Everyone says things are either a "black and white" issue, or "shades of grey"... I'm a competitive gamer, and to be such, you have to realize the outcome of every decision you make many "moves" before the first move is made... you must determine the endgame before the first piece is even decided upon... just as a chess game can be won or lost based upon the first move made, so too, can people's hearts and minds be won and lost based upon "that first move". There is no "black", "white", or "grey". There is only check and checkmate, correct and incorrect moves. What is always correct? Love, peace, joy, happiness, mercy, kindness, patience... everyone is won over by those, so they should be both the opening move, and the checkmate move. This is what it means to me to be a Christian. I am to be "a little Christ" so to speak. I am to walk like Him, talk like Him, share in His likes and dislikes, His deeds become my deeds, His ways my ways. Having the Holy Spirit within me permits me to act against my natural wants, but even so, I realize that I always walk a fine line between "success" and "failure", and slipping back into "failure" is a frightening thing... I know what I once was, and I never want to go back. In the end... it's not about me... it's about God, and it's about everyone else. I'm just the messenger 'tween the two. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
Jackson Holly
|
|
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2010, 06:07:58 AM » |
|
Seraphim ... I believe you are converting me, one post at a time.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Seraphim
|
|
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2010, 08:25:47 AM » |
|
^_^ All I would ask is my words be considered, nothing more. I know that what God says is fact... but it is for you to find out for yourself as well.
"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." - 1 John 4:10-12
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for. - Mentor
|
|
|
|
StDoomsayer
|
|
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2010, 02:11:38 AM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
A=6 B=12 C=18
You do the math
|
|
|
|
ex_nihilo
|
|
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2011, 09:49:22 PM » |
|
Couple more. Kinda hard NOT to see.   |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
An open mind, like an open wound, is prone to infection. -ex_nihilo
|
|
|
|
Kilgore Trout
|
|
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2011, 05:11:27 PM » |
|
Test all things. I guess occult really means ancient wisdom hidden from slaves. I choose to uncover the power that rules me and use it to my liberation , not hide from it because of Constantinian writ.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
|
|
|
|
|
|
