Austrian School monetary theory

[citizenx]

I want truth. If the real value of gold is $10,000/ounce, then may justice be done. Anything else is a lie "Do not bear a false witness".

How is that justice, when the people and institutions that bought the most gold stole the money to pay for it?

[citizenx]

That is why we should back Ron Paul's bill to end legal tender laws. They manipulated gold to move us towards paper, to expand their control. If I have gold in my hand, who has the greatest power of me? Myself maybe?

So sure, follow your idiocy and loose everything you have. Let them have power over you with fiat money so that they cannot control you with gold that you have in your own possession, go ahead and contradict yourself, because gold is of limited supply, if you have some, others have less.

OK.  Look, idiot (yes, I give as well as I get.)  The people who control the price f gold are the people who have the most of, who are the very people who have created the fiat money and therefore have the most of that.

You have been playing monopoly with Federico and he can print his own money.

Unless you are one of the global elite (in which case, fu#% you!), you may benefit from the new system (the sub-elite Zoellick is calling for a global gold standard right now, does that give you a woody?), but they will benefit more, and it will only be a matter of time before they have your gold also (confiscation) -- or whatever they decide to use for currency after that.

Anyway, I'm just a humble schoolteacher. I don't have a lot of extra bread to be spending hoarding gold coins or what not.  For all I know you are a banker yourself.  How do I know how you got your hands on your filthy lucre?

By nature, I am an atheist, but since my family and I are in a foxhole right now, that probably isn't a very wise policy.  So, if there is a God, I wouldn't want to be one of those idolaters that add an extra letter to his name.  I guess we'll see who the idiot is one day.  We will see who has the last laugh.

[planning4acrash]

OK.  Look, idiot (yes, I give as well as I get.)  The people who control the price f gold are the people who have the most of

AND, there is a limited quantity of gold on the planet so, the more We The People have, the less they have and thus the less power they have.

Roll back to fiat money? It is not limited in volume and, the more we have, the more they have, via fractional reserve banking, which they use to buy more gold. Avoiding gold means they have more of it. Going for paper gives them more gold. Its simple as that.

[citizenx]

AND, there is a limited quantity of gold on the planet so, the more We The People have, the less they have and thus the less power they have.

We, the people, have but a fraction of the gold.  The elite have the lion's share at present.

Roll back to fiat money? It is not limited in volume and, the more we have, the more they have, via fractional reserve banking, which they use to buy more gold.

Fractional reserve is irrelevant at this point, they don't have to really keep it on hand.  They have created many loopholes for themselves, and they are probably lying about keeping any gold at all in the Fed or the treasury's depositories.

[gold]
 Avoiding gold means they have more of it. Going for paper gives them more gold. Its simple as that.
[/quote]
Where have I told anybody not to buy gold?  (I used to sell it.)  Again, though, average people don't own very much gold (as a percent of the world total) and they are not about to in the forseeable future.

If they all wanted to (assuming they had the wherewithal), they would soon see the price rocket out of sight and out of their grasp.

[planning4acrash]

We, the people, have but a fraction of the gold.  The elite have the lion's share at present.[gold]

That is why we have to claim it. The more we have the less they have. It would probably take decades to reverse this, accelerated by law-suits which will strip them of their assets. All the more reason to begin now. OR, you can decide to fanny around with psychobabble and junk economics and rationalize not getting involved and not claiming your stake in the vast wealth created by you, your contemporaries and your ancestors.

[citizenx]

If you think you have decades, you might be quite wrong.  Another luxury item most of us do not necessarily possess.

[agentbluescreen]

Basically the only way that they can (now) reduce the value of finite limited-resource bimetallic money commodities is by decimating, reducing or reversing the growth of population/labor "currency". In other words, the finite pool of all-gold is worth, by simple division, what the popular labor-currencies (population) market's demand for it makes it worth, eg how many workers with how much "labor-currency" chase after their share of it for.

In the pre-1900 "undiscovered country" (falsely assumed to be) limitlessly expanding (non- and anti- Malthusian/Fabian, anti-American) mercantile-monopolist imperial-economic models (Austro-Imperial) it was always assumed that bimetallic gold/silver money supplies (of/for the noble Rothschild elites) would always increase along with the slaves it took to mine it for them. They hated and derided the Malthusian science because it implied a Fabian broader "great unwashed" moral societal responsibility that would ruin their game, forcing their patrician parasitic usurious exploitations to become regulated (and/or forcing them to have to become charitable).

The Adam Smith "well regulated" Malthusian/Fabian/American Model (Common-Cooperative Free Enterprise System aka wealth belonging to nations) presumed that the ownership of the currency would always belong to "We The People" collectively (Congressionally owned and issued currencies), not private-monopolist casino-gulag owner's fiat casino chips. It matters not one fig nor tinkle what a nation's people backs (or doesn't back) their fixed (or unfixed) common currency with, it's who owns, issues and rents it (profits from the usury of it) that counts!


Long since then, reality has intervened and the rampant mercantile monopolism on the imperial ownership of both infinite private currency and finite resources that marked the end (board game win) of the elite-noble's Monopoly Game back in 1913 is now taking it's toll. Since then we have been playing the game we'd already lost to the Austrian Rothschild Mafia using their hastily rewritten "extended debt-slavery rules" on the same already-lost game board ever since, and they have now puppeteered us all like little "pay-me slave-bots" past yet another of their pay-back times.

The fatal mistake of having allowed these noble privileged criminals to manufacture, own, rent-out and control our currency has left us all tax-debt homeless on our own entire planet. (forget this mere continent)

The only way they can diminish that proportional-share value of finite Bimetallic currencies now (that we have far better statistical-estimating quantifying methodologies) is by a massive kill-off of humanity.

Of one thing you can be certain, even if they "reduce the value" of an ounce of gold to be 20 SDRs those 20 SDRs would have to be the value of 200,000 Private Fed Ducats for this Jekyll Island Slavers Casino Gulag extended-debt-monopoly-game to be able to continue on.

[planning4acrash]

This is clearly a cut and paste job. Where the heck do you get the stupid notion that Adam Smith was Malthusian! He believed that the market was self-regulating, whilst Malthusians believe that the market cannot self-regulate!!

The people you describe know this, but they manipulate the market criminally, in ways which ensure that the market no longer functions. They know that a manipulate market must be a regulated (fascist) market, which is what we have today.

We really do have some very strange, bought and paid for lackeys, or simply gullible's, on this forum.

[worcesteradam]

The NWO are definitely Malthusian.
The school textbooks here promote him
And their agents always celebrate him

[freedom_commonsense]

The NWO are definitely Malthusian.
The school textbooks here promote him
And their agents always celebrate him

He supported free market economics but warned of cartels and private businesses conspiring to adversely influence it (and indeed politics) in "The Wealth of Nations". In what way is that NWO?

[worcesteradam]

Im not talking about Adam Smith.
Just pointing out what i have noticed

[planning4acrash]

The NWO are definitely Malthusian.
The school textbooks here promote him
And their agents always celebrate him

You miss the context. Adam Smith wrote about free, unregulated markets in a time period when gold was the established global reserve currency. Not via the force of a world government, but by choice, because of its use in storing and transferring wealth.

Because the world was on a gold standard, we did not have such inflation or wild swings that would require regulation. Back then, there was leverage and derivatives in some commodities and shares, which did cause booms and bust, such as the Tulip mania, caused by trading derivatives of tulip bulbs and, the railway bubbles, where fraud and leverage in stocks purchases created a bubble there. But for the man on the street, they were trading in sound money and indeed, the less regulated the more trade would grow.

We now live in a fiat world that is controlled by the State, so it must be regulated. The NWO apply Adam Smith's theories to this fiat world inappropriately therefore and call for no regulation, but with fiat money, you need a regulated economy, because a fiat economy is not regulated by free market forces.

[agentbluescreen]

Adam Smith did not write "The Wealth Of Rothschids", "The Wealth of Rockefellers, The Wealth of Morgans", "The Wealth of Blankfeins" "The Wealth of Buffetts" nor "The Wealth of Bernankes"! In the midst of the dawning of the (enlightened Malthusian/Fabian) American Revolution, he wrote to "We The People" of The Wealth of NATIONS, about "us" owning, managing and "well-regulating" the common-wealth of "our" new nation!

In the US colonies it was Continental Scrip (publicly owned, commonwealth issued and lent casino chips) that represented labor-currency tokenization (money tokens) not gold. A  labor-currency token (money) system is a means by which work, expense, savings, profits or value added productivities are exchanged or bartered for commodities (like, but seldom gold) or each other. Common token bartering-exchange is the essence of "commerce" and the foundation of all modern "markets".

There are five forms of static commodity resources. Rated in order of value, they are;
unique commodities (art),
rare commodities (antiques, platinum, rare-earths),
finite commodities (oil, gold, silver, prime real estate, resource licenses, less-rare),
plentiful (local) commodities (salt, diamonds and everything else) and
renewable commodities (agricultural)  

You can evaluate a common currency by it's day to day rated-commodity exchange values but the commodities themselves are not currency. Arbitrary or conditional vagaries of supply and demand for commodities, their finiteness, their renewability, rarity, storability, transportability and  verifiability make them unsuitable as a "merchantable" currency.  You cannot tell if a bar of gold is all-gold or gold plated tungsten without destroying it, nor can your cashier assay it's purity nor minter's/owner's provenance. If commerce were to rely on such commodities as "tender currency" markets could not function as it would be as much work to buy as it was to sell.

Buying and selling requires labor-currency (money) otherwise you are just "trading commodities". Without labor-currency your "well-regulating" national customs and excise treasuries would be full of gold nuggets, cloth-bolts, sacks of flour, cotton rolls, logs, chickens and pigs.

An hourly worker, conversely can easily evaluate any currency by the amount of work it costs him to attain a measure of it. No house or other merchantable item of salable goods was ever priced in ounces of gold, pounds of wheat or cotton, cords of wood, jugs of oil nor in tons of tobacco!

When the population pool is large enough that the productive trading economy can support a minimum unskilled labor wage rate of $4/hr, a unit of it's "currency" (dollar-money) is "backed" by up-to 15 minutes of (unskilled labor) work, nothing else is nor can be "actually" represented by that dollar! A labor-currency must therefore be kept at a supply level (monetization quantity) that it supports both it's hoarding by the greedy and it's distribution to put some liquidity into the pockets of each of the poor. In a "buddy can you spare a dime" depression the monopolist greedy have agglomerated, repossessed and hoarded it all. Printing more in such conditions merely supports these same greedy rentiers filling their vaults with more repayments, and further devalues the work of the producers (workers) who lost the monopoly game in 1913 that they have continued playing with their multi-masked man (banksters) neo-owner.

Money = Work! This is why unproductive, parasitic, riskless (secured) ab-"usury" of it is so perverse. Making "your" money "work for you' without participating in the risks of the enterprise thus "financed" is buying laziness and thereby rewarding counter-productive indolence. Such rewards should rightly be reserved solely for the owners of the currency who are the people of the nation, not some ennobled corporate economic-monopolist warlord, converting his own good fortune into tyranny, at the expense of the unregulated nation (slaves) which he is allowed to monopolize.


Brainwashed noble-corporate-socialist fascists (particularly neocon Tory RepublicRATs in Amerika) have a peculiarly perverse, tainted noble-socialist view of Malthusian science. Honest people naturally fail to understand their contrarian behavior, yet get easily sucked in to their anti-Fabian false growth-hope propaganda. The Fabian (American Freed Enterprise) libertarian-socialist theory arose out of the enlightenment of humanity to the simple, unassailable arithmetic facts of Malthusian economic science. Logarithmic growth-demands upon any and every finite-supply resource always inevitably result in peak exhaustion! (consolidation, collapse and depression).

Malthus simply pointed out that the economic universe (world) is a Monopoly Board. Once that board is purchased (the queer antisocial notion of property "rights") all players but the winner are to become slaves forevermore! Dr Isaac Asimov pointed out in his "Freedom of the Bathroom" constitutional analogy how the ownership of finite earthly resources is pure nonsense and a complete folly. The Malthusians, Fabians and Marx were not radicals, they are simply hated by the noble socialists, for awakening their slaves. They were no smarter than most aboriginal North Americans. When the right to property was enshrined in the US constitution it meant your home, your horse and carriage, your chattels, your guns, your farm, your store or your factory, not one guy's monopoly on all the oil in Pennsylvania! Only governments (nations, we the people) can own resources not individuals. Allowing individuals to own the people's very labor-currency itself is absolutely total insanity.

This tiny elite boardroom-socialist cabal of noble-socialists (and their enslaved neocon Tory-RepublicRAT minions) fully recognize and acknowledge it by hoarding unique, rare and finite commodities (art, antiques, gold etc, just exactly as their Hitlerian neo-noble-socialist NAZI likes also did) yet are the #1 purveyors of the BIG LIE of "Unlimited Economic Growth" to enlarge the slave-labor pool (and attendant monetization for it), to expand their corporate noble-religious-socialist racist-eugenic growth-pool of political "growth-slave" servants, to keep their compartmentalized ponzi-scheme slaves jockeying for a better losing position in their owned-monopoly board rat-race, to keep them killing each other and "conservatively" fighting among themselves over a cultist-order corporate love of Love Itself (different hateful corporatist religions), and mostly to prevent us from noticing that they've already won, and we are all no more than their waiting victims.

And now they want us off their lawns

[planning4acrash]

Oh, come on. Gold is a rare earth mineral damn it. Precisely because it is, I think, the most dense non-radioactive element on the periodic table.

The quantity mined since the beginning of recorded history would fill two olympic swimming pools so, give me a break. It is NOTHING LIKE oil and other things in your finite commodity list.

The disinfo agents here really do count on the ignorance of folk. I must say that Alex feeds this by being sucked in by schills like Bill Still who promote a paper currency. Incidentally, I've had conversations with Bob Chapman who thinks Bill is an agent, because history shows that ALL fiat currencies have fallen, because fiat gives humans power to print money, and in any system the scum rises to the top and they always debase the currency. So how can that work. He of course, confuses justice with sound money.

Yes, criminals own a lot of gold, but, with a rule of law and justice, they would loose their assets. This is a non-linear problem with multiple solutions, but brainwashed folk cannot deal with that reality, so get caught in the headlights of the dialectics placed before them. "you cannot have sound money because criminals stole the gold" NONSENSE!! This is like saying that we should not own real cars and should only cycle, because if we start buying real cars, then car thieves will benefit or, it is like saying that the elite produce organic produce, so we must continue eating junk so as to not line their pockets. Its all lies, lies, lies. May I remind you all of the commandment to "not bear a false witness".

Alan Watts often says that this the role of the education system is to banish non-linear thought and promote linear thought, because a public, capable of non-linear thinking would not put up with this bull and would, like your forefathers fight for simple, God given constitutional rights. But you can't, because you are brainwashed.

Incidentally, gold fits into an additional category. It is primarily a monetary metal. Over 80% of that mined in known history still exists as bullion, held to be a store of wealth. A very small proportion of supplies are used in industry, and much of that is recycled. Therefore, unlike platinum, oil, and to a smaller extent silver, gold does not suffer demand destruction during recessions. Its value is therefore less volatile. Indeed, the absence of counterparty risk means that gold benefits from turmoil. This is precisely why it is a good store of wealth and, thus, a good means of exchange.

This is why you see silver being more volatile than gold, because it is affected not only by monetary demand, but also industrial demand. Silver is a quasi monetary metal that is also a rare earth mineral, that is ideal for monetary exchange. Its volatility however, means that it is not so good as a long term store of wealth, which is why it was traditionally used as small change. Dimes, quarters and halves. This is the primary reason why gold will tend to be more expensive than silver, even during times when there is less silver around.

[freedom_commonsense]

A store of wealth is not a good medium of exchange, precisely because it will be hoarded to earn interest. You keep obsessing over the value of a piece of metal, which quite frankly is irrelevant. I can't house my children with it, I can't eat it, I can't keep warm with it. Apart from being a minor component of the PCBs in this computer, gold is useless to me.

If people are being wiped out by a deflationary depression, losing all their assets to globalist bankers...the system has failed.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/world-bank-chief-calls-for-new-gold-standard-2010-11-07

In calling for a gold standard you're siding with the likes of Robert Zoellick at the World Bank. You also keep (indirectly) advocating anarcho-capitalism which is fundamentally flawed. I suggest you research the gilded age before you claim the gold standard hasn't failed.

[planning4acrash]

A store of wealth is not a good medium of exchange, precisely because it will be hoarded to earn interest.

Gold does not earn interest by doing nothing, unlike fiat money. Traditionally, gold is either hoarded, with no interest payable or, is invested in a savings and loans bank, which provides interest as a result of INVESTING that bullion into enterprise which will produce products or services. Note, that the gold investor will only invest in something that adds real value, unlike a fiat investor, who will invest in junk businesses primarily to off-set the affects of inflation.

Thus, gold, when deposited in a bank, is not just hoarded. It is invested to produce products, which the person who saved money, contributing to that investment, will be able to afford. Hence, savers defer spending to invest in future production, which they will then be able to afford, fueling the economy. In a traditional, gold backed currency, savings are what drive the economy. In a fiat economy based on money printing, savings have little to no use, because their affect is overwhelmed by inflation.

I wouldn't mind, but you seem awfully confident, yet your entire rant is on the basis of gold receiving interest for nothing. No, you are describing fiat money and are inappropriately projecting that experience onto the economy of a real money commodities like gold. This simply is not the case. Please, can people here at least attempt to be a bit modest if they have not read significant amounts of literature on the subject? If you haven't read major books on Austrian economics, then chances are, you will not understand the complexities of how an economy functions under a gold standard vs a fiat standard.

When the dollar collapses, you will not be able to feed your children if you do not own real currency. Go ask folk who suffered Wiemar Germany. The cost of living there became significantly cheaper for those who had their wealth in gold and foreign currencies. Those who stuck with the junk paper currency lost EVERYTHING. So, that stupid cliche about not being able to eat gold is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.


Please listen to these podcasts:
 - Peter Schiff: "Why Was Anyone Surprised By the Crash?": http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/index.php?p=episode&name=2009-03-15_104_why_was_anyone_surprised_by_the_crash.mp3
 - Lew Rockwell interviews Jorg Guido Hillisman: "The Austrian theory of the Business Cycle": http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-08-11_017_austrian_theory_of_the_business_cycle.mp3
 - What You Should Know About Inflation by Henry Hazlitt (1964): "What you should know about inflation": http://mises.org/daily/2914
 - Jorg Guido Hullisman "The Cultural and Spiritual Legacy of Fiat Inflation": http://mises.org/media/3200

[citizenx]

If gold became the medium of exchange, it would (as Iwantacrash clearly admits) lead to hyperdeflation -- of gold.  Each oz. of gold would climb in value until it became worth 50,000$ or 100,000$.  Iwantacrash knows this, admits this and wants this, as he owns some of this piss-colored metal.

It would crash the world economy immediatealy.  Iwantacrash doesn't care.

Now, that we have established all that, I suppose we can return to the larger topic of the thread -- Austrian economic theory in general, instead of focusing on one small aspect of it.

[freedom_commonsense]

When the dollar collapses, you will not be able to feed your children if you do not own real currency. Go ask folk who suffered Wiemar Germany. The cost of living there became significantly cheaper for those who had their wealth in gold and foreign currencies. Those who stuck with the junk paper currency lost EVERYTHING. So, that stupid cliche about not being able to eat gold is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I don't have currency just sat there doing nothing, I'm not rich enough for that.   As I've said before I'd be stockpiling non-perishable food over precious metals.

Now, that we have established all that, I suppose we can return to the larger topic of the thread -- Austrian economic theory in general, instead of focusing on one small aspect of it.

Anarcho-capitalism you mean?

[citizenx]

Precisely, and its opponents (comme moi).

(Really, just another thin disguise for corporatism/fascism.)

[freedom_commonsense]

Precisely, and its opponents (comme moi).

(Really, just another thin disguise for corporatism/fascism.)

The deflation you refer to (in prices) isn't likely to happen very quickly - prices and wages are often locked into contracts and people don't like lowering them. This means you'll get mass unemployment instead, which is why I condemn anyone trying to make money more scarce than it already is under the current fractional reserve\interest-bearing system.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg703230#msg703230

As the above post points out, the levels of money in circulation obviously requires proper controls in order to avoid unwanted fluctuation. It's backwards to stifle the economy and thus the conditions of ordinary people by choking the monetary base cross-of-gold style.

[Freeski]

Precisely, and its opponents (comme moi).

(Really, just another thin disguise for corporatism/fascism.)

Citizenx, are you saying that austrian school principles/beliefs are a "thin disguise" for fascism?

If so, I find that perplexing.

[freedom_commonsense]

Citizenx, are you saying that austrian school principles/beliefs are a "thin disguise" for fascism?

If so, I find that perplexing.

Anarcho-capitalism, and indeed the attitude that the state is the source of all evil while ignoring the role of private corporations. Did you bother reading Geolibertarian's monetary reform thread?

[citizenx]

The deflation you refer to (in prices) isn't likely to happen very quickly

If we went over to a gold standard overnight, yes there would be an immediate and logarithimic increase in the value of gold which actually is manipulated now and extremely undervalued (on that even those of us opposed to a gold standard and its proponensts can agree).

- prices and wages are often locked into contracts and people don't like lowering them.

Correct.  Businesses will go under unable to complete contracts.

This means you'll get mass unemployment instead

Exactly.

, which is why I condemn anyone trying to make money more scarce than it already is under the current fractional reserve\interest-bearing system.

Quite.  Such a scheme to be at all practical would have to be phased in gradually, and based on what the actual value of the dollar would be with a gold price that corresponded to the real availbalility of gold about 1/100,000th of an oz. per dollar -- not a very practical unit of currency it would seem.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg703230#msg703230

As the above post points out, the levels of money in circulation obviously requires proper controls in order to avoid unwanted fluctuation. It's backwards to stifle the economy and thus the conditions of ordinary people by choking the monetary base cross-of-gold style.

Again, quite.  But, it wouldn't just be subject to fluctuations if a gold standard were re-imposed overnight, it would be a shock to the system from which the system would not recover as gold would increase exponentially in price and there could be no stability.  Complete and instant crash.  it is a bad idea whether your name is Zoellick or planning4acrash.

[citizenx]

Anarcho-capitalism, and indeed the attitude that the state is the source of all evil while ignoring the role of private corporations. Did you bother reading Geolibertarian's monetary reform thread?

Exactly, excellent suggested reading.

Merely doing away with all market regulation without limiting the present power and influence of the great transnational corporations and the international private bankiung cartel is merely playing right into the hands of the corporatists/fascists.

Creating a new entrpeneurial climate and fostering free enterprise also means ending the private-public partenerships which are at present choking it off.

We should be doing away with restrictions and regulations on small business for instance, while doing away with all subsidies for big business (reall the reverse socialism we presently live under in the U.S.) as well as those regulations which were really put into place to support, protect and benefit the large corporations.

In the U.S. we also need immediate poltical (campaign and campaign finance) reform to do away with the institutional and systematic power of the large corporations.  This must go hand-in-hand with deregulation, or we are merely cutting our own throats and handing the country to the globalists once more on a silver (or, perhaps, golden) platter.

That is what I mean when I say that Austrian economic theory is or (perhaps, more correctly) has become a thin disguise for corporatism/fascism, especially that which falls under the rubric "Anarcho-capitalism".  I believe in capitalism, but I am not an anarchist of any stripe, but a strict constitutionalist and and a defender of our (U.S.) constitutional republic.

freeski,

If you have another flag, that is your prerogative I guess.  Vous-etes un Canadien, n'est-ce-pas?

[planning4acrash]

"A high gold price"
would crash the world economy immediatealy.  Iwantacrash doesn't care.

My issue with the economy, is that government is too big, that supermarkets have destroyed independent shops and that Monsanto has destroyed the family farm. All I want is for that parasitic part of the economy to crash. We can then have a real economy based on local savings and loans, dominated by family businesses that care deeply about their local economy.

I have boycotted corporations for two years now. Only purchase food from local farms and farmers markets. That is the economy that will boom from deflation, putting capital into the hands of those who produce. Goldman Sachs will be destroyed by deflation, but I will bear no tears.

To destroy the New World Order involves the Justice, may the heavens fall of dismantling their phony economy. You pussy foot cakes don't seem to understand that this is a war, for our liberty to direct our own future. To achieve that, their ability to manipulate the economy must fall. The process will be like going through chemo for some BUT, all that will be destroyed is debt. When the debt goes, the economy can recover. If we retain the debt, we will be share croppers to the IMF, as Nigerians are today.

So you have a choice, dismantle the debt system that destroys family farms and mom and pop shops or, fear debt destruction and pay interest on the debt until you have no money left for food. WAKE UP.

[planning4acrash]

Anarcho-capitalism you mean?

Anarcho-capitalism is the freedom to transact without State intrusion and regulation. However, it is not without a rule of law. Common Law and Constitutional rights can be used to provide redress to fraud and harm caused by activities. Indeed, the role of most regulations are to get rid of your Common Law and Constitutional protections in ways that let Corporations do what they like.

I like the anarchy of Billy Bob being able to produce what he wants for his customers, without any protection from litigation should he harm his customers or defraud them and, he will have no protection from the state should he go bankrupt. If that applied to the Corporations, they too would toe the line and, Billy Bob would not have restrictions stopping him compete with the big boys.

[planning4acrash]

(Really, just another thin disguise for corporatism/fascism.)

Corporate fascism is the partnership between corporate and state powers!! Anarcho-Capitalism is where there is a separation between corporations and the State, where there are no bailouts, no protection for Monsanto from litigation, no limitations to Billy Bob if he wants to set up a small shop or business so long as he complies with Common Law and Constitutional requirements.

You folk unfortunately, being linear thinkers, cannot grasp the difference between regulation and a rule of law. Fascism is about regulations, but the rule of law provides a quasi-anarchistic relationship, where individuals interact directly, with Common Law and Constitutional protection applied equally, to all. This is what made America great, but you fear freedom and will thus die poor, raped by the Corporations who say that the regulations, written by them, that oppress you are necessary.

[planning4acrash]

Anarcho-capitalism, and indeed the attitude that the state is the source of all evil while ignoring the role of private corporations. Did you bother reading Geolibertarian's monetary reform thread?

Nonsense. The entire idea of a Corporations is Fascism. The US Constitution didn't allow Corporations to exist prior to 1913. A Corporation is a government regulated and government protected entity.

Prior to 1913, if a business did something wrong, We The People were free to sue it for redress. Now, we have regulated Corporations that we have no protections against. We gave up our Constitutional rights to have influence over businesses that affect us, handing that power to Congress, which of course operates a revolving door with Corporations. An economy with Corporations IS fascistic.

Anarcho-Capitalism involves free individuals doing business with no protections from Corporate status. Monsanto would not exist within Anarcho-Capitalism, Neither would Goldman Sachs. Your local bank would exist, as a non-incorporated business. If you sued it, you would not sue the business, you would sue the Directors, as Sovereign individuals. With Corporations, you sue the non-entity which is the fictional corporation, and you can only rarely sue the Directors. Thus, the corporation is more powerful than the person. The Framers of the Constitution sought to avoid that and did, until 1913.

[planning4acrash]

Merely doing away with all market regulation without limiting the present power and influence of the great transnational corporations and the international private bankiung cartel is merely playing right into the hands of the corporatists/fascists.

Regulation IS fascism. It is the partnership between state and corporate powers. All regulations layer above and destroy Common Law and Constitutional rights.

For example, regulation of toxic materials lets regulators approve, for example, GM Crops. At this stage you cannot sue Monsanto because it is approved. However, get rid of the regulations and you can sue Monsanto. Get rid of government sponsored Corporation status, and you can sue the directors of Monsanto and the staff that developed and sold the toxic product.

The entire purpose of regulation of markets and regulation of businesses is to STOP YOU from getting in their way. Well, the other purpose is to write regulations in ways that inhibit grass roots enterprise from competing with the big boys. For example, expensive animal ID for small farmers, cheap premises ID for corporate farmers.

[worcesteradam]

the corporations run the government

[citizenx]

Iwantacrash (a.k.a. Ebenezer)

If you are going to quote me, DON'T CHANGE MY FU#%ING WORDS!

If gold became the medium of exchange, it would (as Iwantacrash clearly admits) lead to hyperdeflation -- of gold.  Each oz. of gold would climb in value until it became worth 50,000$ or 100,000$.  Iwantacrash knows this, admits this and wants this, as he owns some of this piss-colored metal.

It would crash the world economy immediatealy.  Iwantacrash doesn't care.

[agentbluescreen]

Oh, come on. Gold is a rare earth mineral damn it. Precisely because it is, I think, the most dense non-radioactive element on the periodic table.

The quantity mined since the beginning of recorded history would fill two olympic swimming pools so, give me a break. It is NOTHING LIKE oil and other things in your finite commodity list.


Yes, criminals own a lot of gold, but, with a rule of law and justice, they would loose their assets. This is a non-linear problem with multiple solutions, but brainwashed folk cannot deal with that reality, so get caught in the headlights of the dialectics placed before them. "you cannot have sound money because criminals stole the gold" NONSENSE!! This is like saying that we should not own real cars and should only cycle, because if we start buying real cars, then car thieves will benefit or, it is like saying that the elite produce organic produce, so we must continue eating junk so as to not line their pockets. Its all lies, lies, lies. May I remind you all of the commandment to "not bear a false witness".

I will readily agree with you that gold straddles the "Rare" and the "Finite" commodity classes, but it is certainly much less rare and finite than platinum. This is really a small yet inexorable temporal-scale (timebase) distinction, as mathematically, in relation to steady and inexorable population growth on a mostly all already-privately "owned" and thus already reserved finite Monopoly Board (economic planet) all finite commodities of all scales shall eventually become ever rarer and rarer still.

I agree that we must buy and possess unique, rare and finite commodities (the upper-3 finites) as truly reserved savings, just as the elites and wealthy noble-socialists do if we wish to save the fruits of our life's labors without having them steadily eroded away by normal growth-flation, monetization (retiring debt-flation) and corporatist military-industrial government contract fraud-flation, corporate/public welfare-fascist bailout-flation and regressive, ongoing interest/tax bond-flation, by keeping them stored as labor-currency.

In fact art and antiques are a far better store of savings-wealth than other merely ubiquitous raw commodities are, since their value (to wealthy aficionados) is far less contingent upon demand and market liquidity, and they are far more difficult to tax, outlaw/seize or trade-legislate against. Their safety and appreciation-rates may be better but they are also rather more cumbersome and unwieldy, which makes precious metals a great, if somewhat more risky, acceptable alternative.

Where I must disagree with you is in your myopic "finite-standard" labor-currency since that notion is completely economically unsound. The rare case of a "sole proprietor" miner or farmer may work "for a commodity" but he must sell it for labor-currency to obtain for himself the many other commodities he needs for sustenance.  

Gold, (as an example) as part of the upper-3 finites, is an ever-diminishing, in relation to population growth, resource. An ever-expanding productive (working) economic labor-exchange system, with an ever expanding number of new participants based upon an ever-proportionally-diminishing labor-currency would be ever more confined and thus inevitably contract into exhaustion (depression). As the free supply of it's sole medium of exchange continues to diminish in relation to both the number and weights of it's participants, the scarcity of labor exchange media (money tokens) ends all commerce. The entire labor tokenization system then collapses back into primitive commodity bartering once again, which was the impediment to all commercially efficient enterprising growth, pricing-standard valuations and well-regulation of trading commerce in the first place.

In an ever-expanding (growing) productive (working) economic labor-exchange trading system the only thing that currency represents is stored or promised work value. An honest money is always "backed" solely by labor value, nothing else! It is thus natural that it gradually depreciate to some normal extent is a mathematical function of labor-commodity growth and/or as a consequence of declining productivity. Most other far more corrosive and demeaning forms of depreciative inflation however have more sinister, criminal and corrupt causes.

The disinfo agents here really do count on the ignorance of folk. I must say that Alex feeds this by being sucked in by schills like Bill Still who promote a paper currency. Incidentally, I've had conversations with Bob Chapman who thinks Bill is an agent, because history shows that ALL fiat currencies have fallen, because fiat gives humans power to print money, and in any system the scum rises to the top and they always debase the currency. So how can that work. He of course, confuses justice with sound money.

Bill Still is (as is Ron Paul) completely unconfused. There is nothing "fiat" about publicly owned, issued (expanded to meet valid proportional public needs) and rented for public profit labor-currency! Privately owned Casino-Gulag chips owned issued and rented by and for the sole benefit of privateers is rule by "noble-fiat" currency! the Jekyll Island Slaver's Casino Chip is a fiat token of slavery to unending, unrepayable ever-increasing debt for all the dependent losers (including their 2nd place government) of their Monopoly game who's exchange value they can change on a whim as it suits only them. the monarch always rules by "fiat".

 The "honest" public scrip represents the ever-expanding profit(assuming positive productivity) and/or value of "we, the people's" productive work, continually somewhat offset by the expansion of the size of the labor-commodity pool. When the public owners (we, the people) are the rentiers of their own labor currency the income of it's usury-interest makes expensive and regressive, intrusive secondary (income/property/sales)taxation to pay corrupt usurious, parasitic third parties obsolete.

[jerryweaver]

I posted this to craigslist.
The fraudsters have electronic based implantable verichips for us to use as e currency.
Your value will be personally managed under their  system.
Esoteric blather about gold or faith based systems are meaningless.
 Start a community currency in your town

Community Currency. Project

Date: 2010-11-12, 6:47PM MST
Reply to: comm-aeax5-2057392185@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

In 1763, Benjamin Franklin was asked by the Bank of England why the colonies were so prosperous, and this was his response….

“That is simple. In the colonies we issue our own money. It is called Colonial Script. We issue it in proper proportion to the demands of trade and industry to make the products pass easily from the producers to the consumers.

In this manner, creating for ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power, and we have no interest to pay to no one.”

#4 The Currency Act of 1764 ordered the American Colonists to stop printing their own money. Colonial script (the money the colonists were using at the time) was to be exchanged at a two-to-one ratio for “notes”
Later, in his autobiography, Benjamin Franklin explained the impact that this currency change had on the colonies….

“In one year, the conditions were so reversed that the era of prosperity ended, and a depression set in, to such an extent that the streets of the Colonies were filled with unemployed.”

I don't want to be King
The current one has lost his mind and we need a successor.
Looking for volunteers.
Tucson and Flagstaff both have a community currency project.
Email if interested in nominating a Treasurer and Board of directors to pursue a local banking project.

[jerryweaver]

Gold or script system are corruptible. What matters is who runs the books. Service to self or service to others.  During the soviet meltdown people sold their gold for food. I affected the market by quite a margin.

[worcesteradam]

I have seen newspaper articles complaining about art works being held in private collection, saying they should be on show for all to see.
I wondered whether it might be a first step in confiscating art and antiques from private owners.

[planning4acrash]

I will readily agree with you that gold straddles the "Rare" and the "Finite" commodity classes, but it is certainly much less rare and finite than platinum.

Platinum is no good as a primary monetary metal, because it is an industrial metal. Its price falls when industrial activity falls, unlike gold, which is primarily used for bullion. Contracts require predictability and stability. Gold provides that. This is why it has been used as money for over 6,000 years.

People here should instead learn their history and, rather than rationalize why this or that potential currency could theoretically work, should instead attempt to understand why gold did work in the past and why it has been considered money for over 6,000 years. Particularly, they should read the works of the founding fathers and why they, through their historical understanding, chose gold as constitutional money. No amount of naval gazing can counteract the need for a good understanding of history.

[Freeski]

Merely doing away with all market regulation without limiting the present power and influence of the great transnational corporations and the international private bankiung cartel is merely playing right into the hands of the corporatists/fascists.

Creating a new entrpeneurial climate and fostering free enterprise also means ending the private-public partenerships which are at present choking it off.

I agree with that completely, but I doubt I've ever argued against limiting the present power and influence of the corporations at the same time, because corporations get their power from the state -- and I don't think the state should be involved except, possibly, in cases of criminality. As mentioned by planninging4acrash, regulation is a big part of the reason for the current corporate stranglehold, along with a serious decline in personal responsibility which is the result of the state's relationship with corporations (including education) -- and all of it is enabled because of state meddling in what is supposed to be a free and chaotic marketplace. If it's not chaotic/free, it's controlled, and therefore rigged by default.

To equate austrian school thinking with facism, like I said before, perplexes me -- because the two cannot coexist in harmony.

As an aside, sometimes miscommunication occurs when people don't distinguish between the goal and the process of getting there. Obviously you can't just eliminate all market regulation in one fell swoop because the current managed (fascist) marketplace is made up of billions of people who have been neutered of their natural born inclination to live and let live as free-trading people. We have been trained to fear the marketplace.

[Freeski]

Anarcho-capitalism, and indeed the attitude that the state is the source of all evil while ignoring the role of private corporations.

I asked Citizenx if he was saying that Austrian school principles/beliefs are a "thin disguise" for fascism? Anarcho-capitalism is not neccessarily the same thing as Austrian school thinking/beliefs, nor have I ever stated that we should let corporations continue on their state-backed path.

Did you bother reading Geolibertarian's monetary reform thread?

Indeed I have. I read most of his stuff, including many of his external links, and agree with a great deal of it. I think he's laid out many excellent and well thought out ideas for reform.

[citizenx]

Freeski, I can't speak for you and won't, but I think we are pretty much aiming at the same thing and by similar approaches.  It sounds like your favor a reasonable gradualist return to a free market.  That is all I am really arguing for that deregulation go hand in hand with dismantling the interventions that have given the international banking cartel and other large conglomerates the upper hand.  Deregulation has to be gradual and smart -- not fast and dumb.  Same with currency reform IMO.

At this point, I am not a radical anything.  I've had it up to here with radicalism of every stripe.

I guess I see no reason why a proponent of Austrian economics could not be such a gradualist, but many aren't.

And as you say, there are so many regulations to reverse at this point, we cannot re-create free enterprise overnight.  Rome was not built in a day, and (as it was destroyed several times) it could not be re-built in a day either.

That doesn't mean we have the luxury of time at this point, only that we have to act in a smart way to really achieve our goals instead of relying on reductinionist thinking and radical solutions that are entirely myopic.

[planning4acrash]

Freeski, I can't speak for you and won't, but I think we are pretty much aiming at the same thing and by similar approaches.  It sounds like your favor a reasonable gradualist return to a free market.  That is all I am really arguing for that deregulation go hand in hand with dismantling the interventions that have given the international banking cartel and other large conglomerates the upper hand.  Deregulation has to be gradual and smart -- not fast and dumb.  Same with currency reform IMO.

You are correct. Regulations needed when government controls markets, because those markets are no longer regulated by the free market. For example, currencies must be regulated when they are paper monies, because at this point government or central banks, not free markets, regulate the value of the currency thus, government must regulate fiat money. So, if you go to sound money you can get rid of the regulations. The role of regulations is to stop the system from collapsing BUT, they cause problems of their own, so only serve to delay the inevitable collapse.

Another example, I'm a town planner. BUT, town planning is only required because inflation concentrates wealth in the hands of a few developers, creating uneven patters of development, whilst inflation also limits developer's ability to purchase good materials and hire decent architects and craftsmen. Also, inflation means that private estates cannot sustain themselves on freeholder charges alone, because freehold rents cannot keep up with inflation, so local council's take over. Bring in sound money, get rid of mortgage fraud, and we won't need town planning. Town Planning only began in the UK after World War II as a result of us coming off the gold standard. We didn't need town planning prior to that BUT, I advocate keeping town planning until we go onto a gold standard. However, there is a catch 22. These regulations mask problems inherent in the system and folk often only act during times of crisis.