Austrian School monetary theory

[lord edward coke]

So you have the decency honesty and virtue to admit its true, which counts for a lot in my book.

Naturally I forgive you having a little anger and venom in your post. That's good because we need people with a little backbone if we are to stand up to the bullying evil ones.



As to me being paid, or open to bribes that is laughable . . .
Consider what could they possibly offer me that I would accept as payment ?

Silly printed pieces of paper with occult symbols ?
Yellow metal that weighs more than lead - or polished beads ?
Bits of broken glass that are supposed to be rare ?
A bit of land that they can take back any time they please through emminent domain ?


What I do truly value, is my freedom, and that can not be bought, sold or traded. It is not theirs to give, grant, or take away - as it is mine by right of birth - my inalienable right granted by God.

Money is just a means of exchange for goods that have real value.
It is a means to and end, and not an end in itself.
You can not eat money, nor can you sow money, nor will it love you back.


Money is not a blessing, it is a burden of responsibility, for which God will hold us accountable.


I can forsee many people at some future date locked up in some FEMA death camp, thinking of their piles of gold buried at some secret location, wishing they had given it all away to The Money Bomb.

The things in life that have real value, such as friends, family and health - can not be purchased.

As to those private citizens or choose to invest a sensible proportion of their wealth in a few coins in order to protect their family and loved ones - I support that as part of a balanced survival and insurance plan.

  I didn't see any venom,just an observation anyone could surmise- after all the evidence presented was blindly rejected and not even addressed.You should try reading the scriptures a little more as it would clear up  your misconceptions on what is money.

[lord edward coke]

http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=adask.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fadask.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F04%2F090430-money16-blog1.pdf&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fadask.wordpress.com%2Fbooks%2F

The Nature of Money, 263 pages

[planning4acrash]

"Money is just a means of exchange for goods that have real value. It is a means to and end, and not an end in itself."

Well of course, but, the pursuance of untainted money, not used to wield power over the masses, either in the pursuit of funding corporate monopolies or tyrannical government, that is an end in itself. If I can contract with other human beings without the power brokers creaming value from every one of my transactions, and from every time period that I save currency.

So understand, for me, this is not a pursuit for money, this a pursuit to end the parasitic relationship between the money I use and the establishment that control and manipulate that money to STEAL the value I produce by working for other people, to meet their needs and, by using currency gathered from work to create demand for goods and services. It is that economic co-operation, that they manipulate money to steal from that produce what we called society.

[Bilderberg CEO]

"What if we should run out of gold?"

Price deflation.  It's a very simple mathematical problem.

There could even be wage deflation, but it wouldn't be bad because your purchasing power would remain the same or increase.  Yeah, it might sound bad if you boss says he's cutting your salary from 1 ounce to .9 ounces of gold per month, but as long as prices have deflated in unison, there's nothing to worry about.

[planning4acrash]

The Austrian school teaches that a gold standard could work on any volume of money. Its just that the price of gold must be higher if you have less gold. But this doesn't matter, because good money would displace bad, and gold would flood into the country, via demand and, as a result of the booming productivity that comes from a stable money supply.

Indeed a small amount can go a very long way, as physical coinage because gold is the most malleable and ductile of all metals; a single gram can be beaten into a sheet of 1 square meter, or an ounce  into 300 square feet. Just imagine how many gold backed paper notes one could produce with a gold strip threaded into the note, in place of the current security strip. You could make hundreds of thousands of dollar bills from an ounce, so could go straight into production even with a small quantity of gold in circulation.

Gold leaf can be beaten thin enough to become translucent. The transmitted light appears greenish blue, because gold strongly reflects yellow and red.[2]  Such semi-transparent sheets also strongly reflect infrared light, making them useful as infrared (radiant heat) shields in visors of heat-resistant suits, and in sun-visors for spacesuits.[3]  -  From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold

[Bilderberg CEO]

Note also that going back to real money (gold) doesn't mean everyone has to walk around with a pouch of coins.  You could use warehouse receipts just as we use cash today, except a warehouse receipt would actually represent something real, unlike the play money we have today. And the warehouse (bank) would have 100% reserves of course.

[agentbluescreen]

Price deflation.  It's a very simple mathematical problem.

There could even be wage deflation, but it wouldn't be bad because your purchasing power would remain the same or increase.  Yeah, it might sound bad if you boss says he's cutting your salary from 1 ounce to .9 ounces of gold per month, but as long as prices have deflated in unison, there's nothing to worry about.

Pardon me but all such theories are nonsense. Whenever one chooses a limited resource as the benchmark of values for an economic trade currency (barter-gaming poker chip), one encounters the classic endemic limitation to growth and competitivity imposed by the inherent conflict between exponential growth in demand versus a finite limited pool of resource supply.

Finite resources are history. They have all already occurred! Their presence or absence is both limited, static and finite. No economic gaming of them nor anything else can occur without work. For a "barter-gaming poker chip" to be a flexible, representative unit of growing socio-economic "value-currency" it cannot represent limited, finite resource unit. It must and can only represent a unit of work (labour).

In a growing socio-economic system, the token unit of supreme dynamic value is work alone, it is not and can never be the token of some mere static material of supply. Finite resource materials can be owned, work, alone, cannot be. The common-gaming currency value chip must always represent a dynamic asset-value that grows along with the socio-economic system like a poker chip shared, produceable and recognized by all players. In the fixed, owned, limited resource-token casino gulag model the only game in town is Blackjack (21) where the private house always wins all gaming by ruling all games due to it's monopoly upon controllably inflatable and limitable supplies.

By foolishly and mistakenly choosing a rare material as a unit of value one imprisons and entraps all socio-economic activities into an owned private casino-gulag enslavement "monetarist" system.

The inherently restrictive and limiting finite resource token model always inevitably leads to the "peak whateverthehell syndrome". Peak oil is already now the classic example of this ridiculous folly, but there are countless other examples. Consider using Van Gogh paintings, or antique telephones, or cheap, plentiful, common monopolized diamond-rocks or any other form of ownable limited (or mostly all already owned and mercantile-monopolist sequestered) resources as your token of value. The very notion is ridiculous stupidity itself.

All such limited resource tokenization models are totally and brutally corrupt and inherently deeply flawed. This doesn't mean that limited resource values do not all always rise with time, the simple fact is that they do. The corollary to using such static limited nonsense as a reference for a unit of currency is that nothing has any value without work!

If one chooses a currency limited by finite supply the ever growing units of work (socio-economic labor and trade demand populations) will always decline in value in their relation to the finite material elements of inherently limited supplies. The simple fact is that all materials can be replaced, modified or substituted for, but labour cannot be, yet it's pool is unlimited and proportional to growth itself.

An "honest" publicly owned public currency (as opposed to corruptly biased private casino-gulag tax-enslavement one) is representative of this current state of socio-economic population growth and nothing else. In that case alone population-inflation is really "deflationary" even though you have to print more of it to put an earned proportion of it into everyone's pockets.

Isack Asimov posited the classic explanation of this phenomenon in his classic parable of "population growth vs freedom of the bathroom". It's a simple analogy.

When two people live in a 3 bathroom house, you each have total freedom of the bathroom. You can put it in your constitution, have each your own and still guarantee freedom of the bathroom to your guests.

But once the population of the household increases above that value, that prior dilly notion of resource-freedom is gone. Two may own and lock their own bathrooms. then the remaining residents must barter or contest the use and/or availability of the bathroom al the time. They have to fight with each other and bang on the door, or beg for an opportunity to have use of any of it.

[Bilderberg CEO]

It's not a theory, it's simple math, and has been in practice for thousands of years.

[planning4acrash]

How people here can claim to be patriots yet be against constitutional money is beyond me. Have any of you bothered to read what Jefferson said about sound money? Have any of you tried to learn about the reasons the founders went for real money?

With a stable debt free money supply, only possible backed by gold and silver (other metals fluctuate too much in value because of their industrial use), with sound money, higher productivity results in prices falling relative to wages, redistributing wealth equitably amongst all folk who earn and have savings.

This can't be achieved with fiat money, because no government in history has not avoided the temptation to print money and cause inflation.

Compare this to a debt based fiat money, where deflation cannot occur without collapsing the system, where constant inflation (theft from savers and earners) is necessary to prop up debt. Combine this with the socialism necessary to prop up a fiat system.

Do you realize the powerful affect inflation has on stopping people want to work? To be moral, to do things for other people, to meet demand? Do you realize how much harder people would work if they were to earn sound money? How hard Americans did work when they did earn sound money? Just go into an antiques store and see the quality work we once did if you are in any doubt.

[EvadingGrid]

You can have inflation with gold money.

Of course feel free to disagree, but that will be an issue of your blind faith.

[citizenx]

+1  the big banks can inflate or deflate precious metals prices at their convenience and have done so time and time again.



JPMorgan, HSBC sued for alleged silver conspiracy


 By Jonathan Stempel

NEW YORK | Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:46pm EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - JPMorgan Chase & Co and HSBC Holdings Plc were hit with two lawsuits on Wednesday by investors who accused them of conspiring to drive down silver prices, and reaping an estimated hundreds of millions of dollars of illegal profits.

The banks, among the world's largest, were accused of manipulating the market for COMEX silver futures and options contracts from the first half of 2008 by amassing huge short positions in silver futures contracts that are designed to profit when prices fall.

"Defendants reaped hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars in profits" from the conspiracy, one of the complaints said.

The respective plaintiffs, Brian Beatty and Peter Laskaris, each said they traded COMEX silver futures and options and contracts, and lost money because of the alleged manipulation.

continued:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69Q5HQ20101027
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeepers, Batman.

They can.

And have.

Time and time again in history -- real history.

[planning4acrash]

+1  the big banks can inflate or deflate precious metals prices at their convenience and have done so time and time again.

Yes, fraud is possible in any monetary system. But, your lack of non-linear thinking cannot separate the issues of justice + sound money. If fraud is possible in any system, then it is not a relevant factor. Indeed, government are more able to manipulate paper than they are able to manipulate gold, so this point is asinine. Just look at how they cannot keep gold prices down in the face of quantitative easing.

So yes, you need strong fraud laws and, strong checks and balances on government power, as suggested by the Founders, but this need has NO BEARING on whether you choose sound or fiat money, this is purely an economic decision on which is most suited for the purpose of protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Why do you think the Federal Reserve put so much effort into destroying the gold standard? And the semi-gold standard of Bretton Woods? America could NEVER had had the debt it has today had it stayed on a gold standard and spent within its means.

[freedom_commonsense]

Yes, fraud is possible in any monetary system. But, your lack of non-linear thinking cannot separate the issues of justice + sound money. If fraud is possible in any system, then it is not a relevant factor. Indeed, government are more able to manipulate paper than they are able to manipulate gold, so this point is asinine. Just look at how they cannot keep gold prices down in the face of quantitative easing.

So yes, you need strong fraud laws and, strong checks and balances on government power, as suggested by the Founders, but this need has NO BEARING on whether you choose sound or fiat money, this is purely an economic decision on which is most suited for the purpose of protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Why do you think the Federal Reserve put so much effort into destroying the gold standard? And the semi-gold standard of Bretton Woods? America could NEVER had had the debt it has today had it stayed on a gold standard and spent within its means.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg583558#msg583558

Do you really want mass deflation and further lowering of wages\unemployment? The inevitable mass foreclosure when people can't pay their debts as a result of the former?

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg599193#msg599193

Wait, you're going to tell me its their fault for being in debt right? 

[planning4acrash]

Deflation IS liberty. Deflation transfers wealth from those in debt, to those who save, work and earn, providing capital for the economy to grow.

Inflation transfers wealth from those who save, work and earn, to those in debt, reinforcing bad investments and ponzi schemes, starving the economy of capital. Yes, I have no debt, I don't want to subsidize those who pumped up this ponzi scheme nonsense. I don't want governments and mega corporations stealing from my efforts to work hard.

Currently we do have deflation, but the public cannot benefit from it, because they don't have their wealth denominated in gold, just like the government stopped the people benefiting from deflation in the 1930's when they confiscated the gold before doubling its price.

--------

Deflation and Liberty: This monograph addresses a critically important issue: the prevailing view that deflation is a catastrophe that must be stopped.  Read by Dr. Floy Lilley. [1:10:44]

http://mises.org/media/2765

[freedom_commonsense]

Deflation IS liberty. Deflation transfers wealth from those in debt, to those who save, work and earn, providing capital for the economy to grow.

Except I don't recall anyone having much in the way of savings, thanks to the economic collapse and the current monetary system.

See here for details:

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=160459.0

Currently we do have deflation, but the public cannot benefit from it, because they don't have their wealth denominated in gold, just like the government stopped the people benefiting from deflation in the 1930's when they confiscated the gold before doubling its price.

Deflation and Liberty: This monograph addresses a critically important issue: the prevailing view that deflation is a catastrophe that must be stopped.  Read by Dr. Floy Lilley. [1:10:44]

http://mises.org/media/2765

I suggest you read the thread I linked, there are plenty of sources within as well. This paragraph in particular is pertinent to the points you raised:

"The Austrian School approach is a non-solution at best, because it involves allowing the ever-worsening economic collapse to simply “run its course,” which means sheepishly letting the very bankers who engineered this collapse in the first place foreclose on everyone, even though they (the bankers) gave no lawful consideration for any of the collateral-backed IOUs they accepted in exchange for the non-existent "money" they loaned! And if that weren’t bad enough, it also involves adding insult to injury by euphemistically characterizing this parasitic transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to filthy-rich oligarchs as a mere case of “market forces” imposing a just and necessary “correction” on the economy (implying thereby that to politically interfere with this divine “correction” in any way would be to wage a blasphemous assault on “liberty” and the “free market")."

As for working hard, collectively the vast majority of the populace has been doing exactly that.

http://www.dallasfed.org/eyi/free/0406product.html

Referring back to the poverty and privation thread:

"What most people lack is the money with which to buy that wealth. And, as explained above, this is due to the combined effect of our parasitic money system, backwards tax system, oligopoly-creating regulatory system and race-to-the-bottom trade policy.

If the socioeconomic structure that currently underlies all economic activity is such that the bulk of the returns on new production is always appropriated by the top 20%, then increasing production will only enrich the top 20% that much further while leaving everyone else either little or no better off than before."

[planning4acrash]

Deflation also benefits those who earn, those who did save and have pensions. The trajectory of sound money and, the resultant price deflation, is that productivity is incentivised.

A gold standard actually stops monetary deflation, by fixing the supply of money. We do need a purge of debt, which is unavoidable, but to fix the remaining money to gold, would halt monetary deflation. However, with a stable money supply, which encourages production, consumer prices will fall, as more products become available, being chased by a constant supply of money, ensuring that the people, not the bankers, benefit from higher productivity.

Why do you think the bankers create inflation and avoid deflation like the plague? Because they benefit from inflation and suffer under deflation. If the NWO is against it, I'm for it.

[freedom_commonsense]

Deflation also benefits those who earn, those who did save and have pensions. The trajectory of sound money and, the resultant price deflation, is that productivity is incentivised.

Taken a look at any commodity prices lately? They're not decreasing at all.

A gold standard actually stops monetary deflation, by fixing the supply of money. We do need a purge of debt, which is unavoidable, but to fix the remaining money to gold, would halt monetary deflation. However, with a stable money supply, which encourages production, consumer prices will fall, as more products become available, being chased by a constant supply of money, ensuring that the people, not the bankers, benefit from higher productivity.

Except that production requires investment to start with, and you're saying that capping the possible investment allows growth? If prices fall in your scenario, costs have to fall or the businesses won't make a profit. Falling wages just puts people back to square one.

Why do you think the bankers create inflation and avoid deflation like the plague? Because they benefit from inflation and suffer under deflation. If the NWO is against it, I'm for it.

We are experiencing deflation already, in the sense that there is less and less money circulating in the economy. It's being swallowed up by the private banks (TARP, calling in loans, repayments taking both principal and interest - gotta love fractional reserve banking). Prices are staying high or increasing because costs of doing business are increasing, dropping them would be suicidal for most enterprises at this point. Servicing debt is becoming more difficult, land\property remain expensive, the service-heavy nature of the current economy means that trade deficits continue to increase.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=161315.msg958482#msg958482

There are stats in this post that discuss the purchasing power issue and why we aren't seeing price deflation.

[planning4acrash]

Many commodity prices are falling or remaining stable relative to gold. If your currency was gold, you would be paying a price for gasoline similar to that paid by your Grandparents during the 1950's. This is how much the Federal Reserve have stolen from you.

Price rises at the pump and elsewhere are almost entirely the result of fiat inflation. Money printed from thin air, to steal from you, to fund the expansion of government and global mega-corporations. But fine, avoid gold and loose everything you have and everything your parents and grandparents fought for. Be my guest.

[Bilderberg CEO]

+1  the big banks can inflate or deflate precious metals prices at their convenience and have done so time and time again.

Yes, and those actions are illegal. Get it?  Inflation, on the other hand, is accepted and often praised, even though it's just as immoral as fraud.  It is theft.

[freedom_commonsense]

But fine, avoid gold and loose everything you have and everything your parents and grandparents fought for. Be my guest.

I don't have two pennies to rub together most days, so explain how I am supposed to buy gold?

[citizenx]

OK, I have done (admittedly) a 180 on this:  I have been studying the constitution and I must admit, it ceratainly appears to support a demand for gold and silver backed money -- no matter how impractical that may be.

I am still a greenbacker, but I must admit to honsetly create a debt-free fiat currency that does not violate the constitution an amendment, at the least, woudl be necessary and should have been voted upon and ratified when the nation was taken off the gold standard, but never was.

In the absence of such amendment, a new fiat currency, whether it was issued by the Fed or the gov't. itself would stil be unconstitutional as is our current form of fiat currency, the Federal Reserve Note.

I am merely trying to be intellectually honest.

There is not enough gold at present in the world to back half the dollars in circulation.  There is not enough gold in the Federal Reserve's depositories and the gov't's depostories to back one sixtieth of the dollars in circulation  -- and that is if they are not lying (I believe they are).

So, it would mean that our entire economic system and our government would be immediately insolvent (our government, arguably, already is).

Either the dollar would have to be devalued accordingly -- losing 59/60ths of its value -- or, the price of gold would simply sky-rocket to sixty times its present price and only the very wealthiest would be able to buy any significant amount of gold (at nearly 100,000$/oz.).

In other words, the system would simply be collapsed intentionally overnight that.

The logical solution to this, in my opinion, is to have a constitutional amendment ready to create a new constitutional currency in the even that the Federal Reserve, after being audited, is foudn insolvent or in need or being placed into national receivership.

In short, I am stil not a "goldbug", but I have come to believe that we should honor our own constitution at last in order to create a permanent sensible financial system.

OK.  Now let the stone throwing commence.  I imagine they will be coming from two different directions, but that is (as I see it) how it must be.

(If someone can show me where I am wrong about the constitution, no one would be happier than I to hear it at this point.)


CX

[EvadingGrid]

The evil ones came to power through manipulation of Gold.

I'm waiting for a real answer to that problem. Not some religious cult rant from a non scientific pseudo economic school.

[citizenx]

I understand, EG.  The problem, however, is our constitution -- in the United States.  Gold isn't a practical basis of a currency right at the moment.  It's a different issue altogether.

In a way, our constitution needed to be amended earlier in the twentieth century to allow fiat currencies, but instead the Fed and Gov't. just went ahead and did it without taking the appropriate steps.  If you have godlike power, you are sometimes allowed to cut the Gordian knot. Of course, it's never a good idea to grant human beings godlike power.

[jerryweaver]

I am looking at the IMF and the Fed as just being too big.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That a fiat currency that is controlled by secret cabal using secret accounting  and is the international standard for energy and international loans at interest is the root of the problem. I'm thinking the solution lies in examining the problem and taking opposite action.

Local currency issued from local sources to facilitate most purchases a person would make in a lifetime.

[planning4acrash]

I don't have two pennies to rub together most days, so explain how I am supposed to buy gold?

If you can't buy gold, hoard silver (whilst you can get it) hoard pre-1991 bronze pennies. They swapped bronze for copper plated steel (which, unlike bronze, is magnetic). Buy lead, buy storable foods, buy real things!!!! Its very simple.

If you haven't saved money to date, then don't blame me, blame yourself.

[EvadingGrid]

If you can't buy gold, hoard silver (whilst you can get it) hoard pre-1991 bronze pennies. They swapped bronze for copper plated steel (which, unlike bronze, is magnetic). Buy lead, buy storable foods, buy real things!!!! Its very simple.

If you haven't saved money to date, then don't blame me, blame yourself.

Wow !

We agree on something on this thread !!! 

Yea, your 100% right when you advocate purchasing real things of real value. I also think we all agree the Federal Reserve notes are imoral, and intrisicley worthless... and like you say the best thing to do is to swap the toilet paper for real things.

[planning4acrash]

I have been studying the constitution and I must admit, it ceratainly appears to support a demand for gold and silver backed money -- no matter how impractical that may be.

What? Appears to support gold and silver backed money?

NO, NO, NO!! It does not support paper money backed by silver, it states that NOTHING be used by government for money except silver and gold coins.



Whilst you may think its impractical to not have this, the laws of economics do not wait for fools. To be uneducated does not free you from cause and affect. Priced in gold, your oil would be the same price now that it once was for your grandparents during the 1950's.

[planning4acrash]

Local currency issued from local sources to facilitate most purchases a person would make in a lifetime.

 - Local corruption is just as bad as global corruption. You can only make people accept paper currency via the force of legal tender laws, because people are being asked to swap something that has value for something that doesn't.

BUT, if your coins are backed by real assets that have real value, then force is not required. Any money backed by force, is also backed by power, corruption and immorality, because all force, other than self defence, is illegitimate.

[citizenx]

What? Appears to support gold and silver backed money?

NO, NO, NO!! It does not support paper money backed by silver, it states that NOTHING be used by government for money except silver and gold coins.



Whilst you may think its impractical to not have this, the laws of economics do not wait for fools. To be uneducated does not free you from cause and affect. Priced in gold, your oil would be the same price now that it once was for your grandparents during the 1950's.

It's not enough I agree with you on this one point, you still have have to call me a "fool"?

Chuck you farley!

And you have never once answered my objections dealing with the gold supply fomr day one, because you can't.

Like have an a$$-kicking contest with a one-legged man.  You're just no fun.

[jerryweaver]

- Local corruption is just as bad as global corruption. You can only make people accept paper currency via the force of legal tender laws, because people are being asked to swap something that has value for something that doesn't.

BUT, if your coins are backed by real assets that have real value, then force is not required. Any money backed by force, is also backed by power, corruption and immorality, because all force, other than self defence, is illegitimate.

Ithica Hours have been in use for over a decade in Ithica NY.
The accounting is open to the public. This currency and others like it
is a community based project not government and backed by business and labor of Ithica NY. I think it accounts for ten percent of the local economy.
http://www.ithacahours.com/archive/0001.html

I find it inspiring when people decide to not do the fearful feudal serf thing. I bet they don't have to lock everything down either.

These types of currency experiments are popping up all over the country. I found out there are two such city currencies in Arizona. One in Tucson and one in Flagstaff.

Here are some more currency projects and volunteers:

Christina Lake BC/ Steve Brewster
The Social, Ecological & Economic Development [SEED] Society
9A Johnson Road, Christina Lake, BC V0H 1E2
hayseed@sunshinecable.com (250) 447-9591

COASTAL GEMS/ Darlene Bowden,
GENERAL DELIVERY, PARRSBORO
NOVA SCOTIA B0M 1S0 CANADA
101B@parrsboro.ednet.ns.ca (9042) 254-2994

Prince George HOURS/ Andrea Dulmage/ Prince George Barter/
715 Victoria St. Rm. 208, Prince George, BC, Canada, V2L-2K5
(250) 964-0488 fx 1-250-562-4271 tnthomas@indy1.pgweb.com

TORONTO HOURS/LETS/ Joy Kogawa 103005.255@compuserve.com

Val-David HEURES/ Alain Bellay, Val-David Quebec
abellay@polyinter.com

UNITED STATES
California
BERKELEY BARTER NETWORK
Lawrence Schectman (510) 527-6688
Aikya Param aikya@ix.netcom.com
Ms. Param, by the way, is Publisher of Women and Money and provided this comprehensive listing of nongovernment currency systems.


BERKELEY HOURS (DAILY BREAD)
Box 3973, Berkeley, CA 94703 (510) 704-5247
Jyl Safier JYLSAFIER@AOL.COM,
Miyo Sakashita MiyokoS@aol.com

Humboldt HOURS/ George Kirkpatrick
2204 Freshwater Rd. Eureka, CA 95003
georgek@tidepool.com (707) 444-9489

SAND DOLLARS (HOURS)/ AMITA
BOX 554, BOLINAS CA 94924
grupmind@well.com (415) 868-9036
JILL WHITCROFT (415) 868-2602 JWhitcroft@aol.com

SEQUOIA HOURS/ JACK MAGUIRE
BOX 398, GARBERVILLE, CA 95542
PAUL ENCIMER (707) 923-4488

KENSINGTON James Durkin colabtek@vdn.com

OAKLAND cbrouillet@igc.apc.org

PALO ALTO pfc@thecity@sfsu.edu
Debbie Mytels (415)856-7580

Santa Barbara Community Currency
POB 91533, Santa Barbara, CA 93190
Amory Starr Sustain@silcom.com (805) 682-9972
Bruce Bigenho: CoHearts@aol.com
http://www.silcom.com/~sustain/SBHours

SAN FRANCISCO/Andrew Michael
Partnership for Change pfc@thecity.sfsu.edu

SAN LUIS OBISPO/ Bruce Banner
POB 15609, San Luis Obispo, CA 93406
Hopedance@aol.com; Diane Hull DHull1CPA@aol.com

Santa Monica HOURS/ Lori Klaidman, John Stein, Billie Beach,
Grace Kirschenbaum, Alan Kaminishi klaidman@hsc.usc.edu

Santa Rosa HOURS/ Bill North and Allan Nauman
1306 Dutton Ave, Santa Rosa, CA. 95407 (707) 573-8703

Colorado
COMMUNITY CASH (HOURS)/ Sarah Syverson
Women's Resource Center, Box 2132,
Durango, CO 81302 (970) 247-1242 women@rmi.net

SPUDS (HOURS)/CARBONDALE, CO Krista Paradise
66 N. 6th St., #4, Carbondale, CO 81623
paradise@sopris.net 970-963-3678

Neighbor to Neighbor @ Womens Resource Center/ Jen Morobitto
JKMOROBITTO@FORTLEWIS.EDU
835 E. 2nd Ave. Room 228, P.O.Box 2132
Durango, Colorado 81302

Connecticut
THREAD CITY BREAD (HOURS)
Donna Nicolino
P.O. Box 788, Willimantic, CT 06226, 860-456-9213 dnicolino@juno.com


Florida
Gainesville HOURS/ Shanti Vani
Box 12504, Gainseville FL 32604
1002 NE 15th St. Gainesville FL 32601
(352) 376-1606 s.vani@worldnet.att.net
Darren Burgess: DarrenB@aol.com

Georgia
ATLANTA HOURS/ HUGH ESCO
BOX 5332, ATLANTA GA 30307
(707) 368-2805

Idaho
BOISE HOURS/ Neysa Jensen, 1809 N. 7th St, Boise ID 83702
NeysaJensen@compuserve.com

Indiana
INDIANAPOLIS BARTER BUCKS (HOURS)
JOHN GIBSON, 3038 Fall Creek Parkway
INDIANAPOLIS IN 46205 (317) 925-9297 icaindy@aol.com

Kansas
LARRY/KONZA HOURS/ 305 w. 14th Up, Lawrence, KS 66044
Boog Highberger (913) 843-0995
Clark Coan (913) 842-3458 841-6934
Joe Harrington jharring@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, jassch@falcon.cc.ukans.edu

KANSAS CITY BARTER BUCKS/JEAN ROGERS
707 E. 34th Street, Kansas City, MO 64109
(816)753-4235 (816)531-4671

Louisiana
Mo Money/Alexander Kim
2121 Joliet St, New Orleans, LA 70118
(504) 862-9347 ALiNOLA@aol.com
office: 2340 Washington Avenue, New Orleans, LA 70115
(504) 895-4777 fax# (504) 895-6333

Massachusetts
UNIVERSAL TRADE HOURS/ DAVID GROSACK
BOX 390979, CAMBRIDGE, MA 01239
(617) 925-5253 DCG3@IX.NETCOM.COM

Amesburg HOURS/ Julie Meyer/ Carl Todd
70 Madison St. #13 Amesbury MA 01913
(508) 388-1095 chtodd@seacoast.com

Maine
WALDO HOURS/ GARY & RABABA ROBB
BOX 157, UNITY, ME 04988 (207) 948-6162
Garyrobb@uninet.net
HANNA HATFIELD (207) 437-2482 (207) 342-4171
http://www.greens.org/maine

Michigan
GREAT LAKES HOURS/ EDEN WINTER
4605 CASS AVE., DETROIT MI 48201
MGALVIN@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (313) 831-6916 (313) 832-2904
Missouri
KANSAS CITY BARTER BUCKS/ JEAN ROGERS
707 E. 34th St. KANSAS CITY MO 64109
(816) 753-4235; (816) 531-4671

ST LOUIS HOURS/ MARY LEHMANN MLLEH@HOME.STLNET.COM
BILL RAMSEY

Columbia HOURS/ DEVON SCHERUBEL
Box 7653, Columbia MO 65205
304 SANFORD AVE Columbia, MO 65203
(573) 443-6832 (home office) (573) 499-5790 (mobile phone)
dscherub@mail.coin.missouri.edu

Montana
Missoula HOURS/ Kathy Witkowsky (406) 549-3454 kwit@marsweb.com
bdm@montana.com, mcneal@selway.umt.edu

New Hampshire
BRATTLEBORO HOURS
COMMUNITY CURRENCY PROJECT/ PAUL EAGLE
BOX 177 W, CHESTERFIELD NH 03466

New Mexico
SANTA FE HOURS/ Box 22485, SANTA FE, NM 87502
CHRISTINE REECE (505) 473-3621; (505) 986-8776;
GUEST@ZUMACAFE.COM (505) 988-1720; (505) 988-7962; BBS (505) 989-2571

Grant County Community Exchange
P.O. Box 2721
Silver City, NM 88062
We are a LETS with 50 members, have been in existence over 3 years, and have done over $50,000 worth of trading.


NEW UPDATE
New York
BROOKLYN HOURS/ TANIA HOLLANDER
1702 11th AVE., BROOKLYN NY 11218
(917) 232-4995
tania@taniahollander.com
Rachel Treichler (718) 783-0042 ecobooks@interport.net, whodini@earthling.net
George McGuire drnoe@luminet1.luminet.net, cseeman@earthlink.net
http://www.panix.com/~levner/nygreens/tohtml.cgi?locals/brooklyn/greenbacks.htm

BUFFALO HOURS/ JOE TODARO
BOX 974, BUFFALO, NY. 14213
jt512@buffnet.net (716) 635-4926
Rust Belt Books: Brian Lamkin
Joe Burke (716) 853-1134
Elissa Feit: feit@buffnet.net 716 881 6051
http://www.buffnet.net/~feit

Capitol Area Self-Sustaining HOURS/ JOHNATHAN FINN
340 FIRST STREET, ALBANY, NY 12206 (518) 465-0622
fax 518-465-0623 75221.1262@COMPUSERVE.COM

CHENANGO HOURS/ JOHN VAN LIERDE (607) 859-2538
Box 252, SOUTH NEW BERLIN, NY 13843
Stacie Edick (607) 843-6721 Stedick@juno.com
COLUMBIA COUNTY HOURS/ VIRGINIA OSBORNE
BOX 300, PHILMONT NY 12565
VIRGINIA OSBORNE (413) 672-4597
ANN GREENBERG (413) 672-4332

ITHACA HOURS/ PAUL GLOVER
BOX 6578, ITHACA, NY 14851
(607) 272-4330 hours@lightlink.com
http://www.publiccom.com/web/ithacahour/

STONERIDGE HOURS/ Christina Campion
BOX 691 Kerhonkson, NY 12446-0691
Paul Tobin at the Cultural Coop
(914) 687-7423 in Stoneridge or, home (914) 657-6818.

North Carolina
MOUNTAIN MONEY/ JANE THREATT-MORGAN,
BOX 103, MARS HILL, NC 28754 (704) 689-5974
ANNE WHITEFIELD, BOX 27A RTE. 1,
HOT SPRINGS NC 28743 (704) 622-7603
ANNEW@MADISON.MAIN.NC.US

Earthaven HOURS
Box 1107 Black Mtn, NC 28711 (704) 669-6760
Molly Mills, 30 Blake St., Asheville, NC 28801

Charlottesville HOURS/Alexis Zeigler
1014 Grove Street, Charlottesville, VA 22903 feb4q@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu

Ohio
CUYAHOGA HOURS/ DAVID ELLISON
C/O N.E. OHIO GREENS, 530 EUCLID AVE #200,
CLEVELAND OH 44113 (216) 631-0557
Katherine Clark (216) 261-4785, dellison@igc.apc.org,
Daryl Davis, 216-236-5801 or daryl@igc.apc.org

PORTAGE HOURS/ JEFFERSON BECK
BOX 3231, KENT OH 44240 jfsnbeck@waonline.com
TOM ALBANESE (216) 677-9781,
BILL SCHULTZ, 117 EAST OAK, KENT, OH 44240,
(216) 673-8216

SIMPLY HOURS/ MARILYN WELKER
335 E. 19TH AVE., COLUMBUS, OH 43201
(614) 291-0834 bwelker@iwaynet.net,
jwbrown@envirolink.org, adwyer@ee.net

SUMMIT HOURS/ GREG COLERIDGE,
513 WEST EXCHANGE ST., AKRON OH 44302
(330) 733-0842 (216) 253-7151
(216) 996-4664 afscole@aol.com
GLORIA BLOORE 1758 FORD AVE AKRON OH 44305

WOOSTER HOURS (WAYNE COUNTY)
MARTY BRENEMAN, 10736 LAUTENSCHLAGER RD.,
APPLE CREEK OH 44606 (216) 698-7911

Oklahoma
HOURS PROGRAMS STARTING UP:
TULSA HOURS/ Ken Hess
2301 W. Galveston St., Broken Arrow, OK 74102 kenhess@ionet.net Joyce
Nipper 827 N. Norfolk, Tulsa, OK 74106

Oregon
CASCADIA HOURS/ JOHN D VAN HOVE
BOX 5290, EUGENE, OR 97405
DON HOF (503) 297-4386 CAROL COOPER (503) 393-6071
JONLIB@AOL.COM (503) 343-5066
Russell Martin, Portland, Oregon rmartin@europa.com
http://www.europa.com/~rmartin/cascadia/

Pennyslvania (Philadelphia and Surrounding Area)

EQUAL DOLLARS/ VANESSA WILLIAMS
RESOURCES FOR HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
4333 KELLY DR., PHILADELPHIA, PA 19129 (215) 951-0300
BOB FISHMAN rfishman@dynanet.com, 0004250245@mcimail.com

LEHIGH VALLEY HOURS/GUY GRAY/GRETA BROWNE,
801 VERNON ST., BETHLEHEM, PA 18015
(610) 865-9050 ads4@lehigh.edu (Alan Streater)

PHILADELPHIA-EASTERN HOURS/ OLAF EGEBERG
7059 EASTERN AVENUE, TAKOMA PARK MD 20912
(301) 608-8008 OEGEBERG@CAPACCESS.ORG

Texas
DILLO HOURS/ LYNDON FELPS,
2206 MATTERHORN, AUSTIN, TX 78704
(512) 448-0717 rainfall@swbell.net

Coastal Cash/ Judith McCarthy/ Coastal Trade Commission
88 Portia Ave., Rockport TX 78382

Virginia
HOURS PROGRAMS STARTING UP:
Charlottesville HOURS/ Alexis Zeigler 1014 Grove Street,
Charlottesville VA 22903 feb4q@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu

Vermont
BUFFALO MOUNTAIN HOURS/ DAVID BRIARS
BOX 131, HARDWICK, VT 05843
DBRIARS@WORLD.STD.COM
BARBARA (802) 472-8566 (802) 586-9628

GREEN MOUNTAIN HOURS/ CCPCV
BOX 734, MONTPELIER, VT 05601
STEVE GORELICK (802) 223-7815 isecvt@igc.apc.org

Burlington Bread, the Curlington Currency Project
P.O. BOX 8472, BURLINGTON, VT 05402
(802) 434-8103
www.burlingtoncurrency.org
email info@burlingtoncurrency.org

Washington
KETTLE RIVER HOURS/ TARA KERR
3470 SOUND CREEK RD., KETTLE FALLS, WA 99141
(509) 684-1370
LOPEZ ISLAND HOURS/ STEVE LUDWIG
RT 1 BOX 1913, LOPEZ ISLAND, WA 98260
(360) 468-2104 PAT CUNNINGHAM

SOUND HOURS/JOANNE LEE
120 STATE AVENUE NE #1444, OLYMPIA, WA 98501
(360) 352-3856 VISION@OLYWA.NET,
KEVIN WAHL wahlk@elwha.evergreen.edu,
Eric (360) 786-0710 Steven Beck stlbeck@aol.com
http://www.olywa.net/roundtable/sound_hours/look.html

KITSAP HOURS/ PAULETTE HOFFMAN
3640 GREEN MOUNTAIN ROAD,
BREMERTON, WA 98312 (360) 830-0531
phoffman@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us

Skagit Dollars/ Bonnie, thamiter@ncia.com
Skagit County WA

Bainbridge Island HOURS/ Shelby Anne Rallis
321 High School Rd #250,
BAINBRIDGE ISLAND, WA 98110
shelb@worldnet.att.net (206) 842-8594
Wini Jones wjones2610@classic.msn.com

Wisconsin
MADISON HOURS/ JOHN HAIN, BOX 3204, MADISON WI 53704
(608) 259-9050 POSTMASTER@MADISONHOURS.ORG
http://www.madisonhours.org

Milwaukee HOURS/ Ruth Cody
2449 N. 50th St. Milwaukee, WI 53210-2815
avictory@execpc.com

Ashland, WI/ Erin Walker
WE1471@wheeler.northland.edu

[jerryweaver]

While the amount of transactions are relatively small, in the event of major disruptions by the FED, the infrastructures for local money are already in place and functioning. The local currencies have Credit Unions debit cards, coins and paper money.

[jerryweaver]

One thing I really found to be enlightening in studying money was this.
Tribes that weren't westernized (enslaved to money)had more diverse skill sets, more sex, less work, more family time, more social bonding and very little interest in war. The indians in peru have a 20 hour work week and use the APHRODISIAC MACA as westerners use flour.
It appears that cultures that don't use money have a much fuller spiritual life also.
 

 

[planning4acrash]

And you have never once answered my objections dealing with the gold supply fomr day one, because you can't.

Any volume of gold can be used to back a currency, its just a question of how expensive the gold will be. If America has the gold it says it has in Fort Knox, maybe $7000/ounce would back the currency. If they do not have it, then maybe the gold price must be $50,000/ounce.

BUT, as soon as you go to sound money, and the rule of law, capital and gold will flow into the Country, so, there may be a difficult period, but we are already in difficult times and, it is the trajectory from this point that matters. If we can retain freedom, then the economy WILL recover, particularly when combined with the technology we now have. It would take less than five years to bring back the economy.

HOWEVER, if you pussy foot around and avoid sound real money, then it could take 50 years to regain the economy, if we ever do.

[freedom_commonsense]

If you can't buy gold, hoard silver (whilst you can get it) hoard pre-1991 bronze pennies. They swapped bronze for copper plated steel (which, unlike bronze, is magnetic). Buy lead, buy storable foods, buy real things!!!! Its very simple.

I have very little to my name. I'll look into junk silver but I'm struggling to pay the bills as it is. Unfortunately I don't get paid in gold...

Given that there are 42.5 million Americans on food stamps, I don't think your gold solution would work very well unless you intend to let them starve to purchase it.

If you haven't saved money to date, then don't blame me, blame yourself.

Well excuse me for not earning $50 an hour like you   I'm not the one who's been manipulating the law and the money supply or pushing up the cost of living for years.

[citizenx]

Dear wantacrash/lookingforwardtoacrash,

Any volume of gold can be used to back a currency, its just a question of how expensive the gold will be. If America has the gold it says it has in Fort Knox, maybe $7000/ounce would back the currency. If they do not have it, then maybe the gold price must be $50,000/ounce.

If you think having a currency backed by 100,000$/oz. gold is good for anybody but your own greedy a$$, you have your head planted firmly up your keister.

BUT, as soon as you go to sound money, and the rule of law, capital and gold will flow into the Country

Exactly how?  Leprauchans?

, so, there may be a difficult period

Thanks, I'm glad you feel our pain.  Do you work for the Rothschilds or what? For Zoellick?  World Bank?  IMF?

, but we are already in difficult times and, it is the trajectory from this point that matters. If we can retain freedom, then the economy WILL recover, particularly when combined with the technology we now have. It would take less than five years to bring back the economy.

How will anybody but the very elite benefit from this scenario where it takes one dollar to buy 100,000$ of gold and the dollar loses  all but one sixtieth of its value overnight?

HOWEVER, if you pussy foot around and avoid sound real money, then it could take 50 years to regain the economy, if we ever do.

So, just crash the system now.  Brilliant.

OK, I'd be interested to hear some suggestions from some grown-ups now.

Even if I bough what some of the goldtards are syaing, the only way something like this could be implemented without hurting (killing) a lot of people would be very incrementally/gradually.  But, I am not hearing that at all from proponents of a gold standard/return to gold standard.  I don't get the impression you really care about the vast majority of your fellow human beings.  If you are not one of the elite, you think just like them.

You can all stay warm together one day in the same circle of Hades.




We know who's got the gold, and who's getting ready to make the rules.  You're not fooling anybody.

We know why Lincoln and Kennedy were killed and no one was ever killed for trying to return America to the gold standard in any century.

The same people that have used debt-based currency to manipulate us have done the same thing time and time again with gold.  We know who you are and we're not walking down your yellowbrick road.

[citizenx]

"All theory is gray,
the golden tree of life is green."

Goethe




Bottom line, I'd rather be wrong with Lincoln and JFK than right with the elite-hugging goldtards.

[EvadingGrid]

The same people that have used debt-based currency to manipulate us have done the same thing time and time again with gold.  We know who you are and we're not walking down your yellowbrick road.

That is a key point.

[planning4acrash]

Given that there are 42.5 million Americans on food stamps, I don't think your gold solution would work very well unless you intend to let them starve to purchase it.

They are on food stamps because they suffer a fiat money system that steals everything from them. If we go back to sound money, the middle classes will once again start up businesses and begin hiring those currently out of work.

[planning4acrash]

If you think having a currency backed by 100,000$/oz. gold is good for anybody but your own greedy a$$, you have your head planted firmly up your keister.

I want truth. If the real value of gold is $10,000/ounce, then may justice be done. Anything else is a lie "Do not bear a false witness".

[planning4acrash]

The same people that have used debt-based currency to manipulate us have done the same thing time and time again with gold.  We know who you are and we're not walking down your yellowbrick road.

That is why we should back Ron Paul's bill to end legal tender laws. They manipulated gold to move us towards paper, to expand their control. If I have gold in my hand, who has the greatest power of me? Myself maybe?

So sure, follow your idiocy and loose everything you have. Let them have power over you with fiat money so that they cannot control you with gold that you have in your own possession, go ahead and contradict yourself, because gold is of limited supply, if you have some, others have less.