Noah's Ark found long ago

[White Rose Sophie]

can you imagine trying to get that lot on a boat and the the elephant treads on some of the smaller animals, also there wasnt just 2 of each animal, the seas rose to above everest?  on a global scale thats how much extra water?  )

noah set sail when?
and when was the earth all one big continent?

heres my analogy if i watch star trek enterprise i can tell when an old original series story is being retold even if there are different characters names and different locations and different time frames,  the story has been told before. 
i think i have an open mind and an active imagination and i will entertain a lot of ideas but i find this story very hard to swallow, after watching zeitgeist i find all religions hard to swallow, they were started to control the different country's beliefs so that its easy to evoke a war, you just say they dont agree with our god.

I am open to the idea that there maybe something else, that controls everything  and i believe that there maybe life after death, after watching the NDE documentaries and the remote viewing esp the ed dames thing on google.  also the coloured auras that everyone has that can be photographed or filmed.

"after watching zeitgeist "

That is most interesting.  I'm curious as to who funded Zeitgeist. Why?  Because most people have no idea about subliminal messaging, and who is really behind most organizations as well.  And the best disinfo...is 95% correct...but it's in the 5% that the true agenda is found.  Hey, rat poison is 97% harmless corn meal...it's the 3 % strychnine that kills. Hence those who labor in the "Green" movement, and many in the "Peace" movement. PETA, etc ....and those who protest at G8 meetings, etc....literally have NO Idea who they are really working for. Just as the average Mason (and Catholic) also are clueless as the ultimate goals of their organizations.

The reason I say this is that the destruction of 'religious belief' is one of the primary aims of the NWO/Illuminati etc.  When I say religious belief - I'm talking about monotheism -  the belief that there is One Supreme Being who created the earth and it's inhabitants...and who created MAN as special, and not just an 'evolved' animal. The belief that GOD created man in this image of himself, and therefore human life is sacred because of that. MORE sacred than the chicken, the elephant, the cockroach.  Why else would they demonize Islam and infiltrate Christianity, and turn both against each other?
Plus they (NWO/Illuminati) realize that they first must destroy that which they cannot control (faith in an Almighty creator) to bring people to rely upon, and worship THEM.

Someone who does believe in life after death, and is confident on where they will spend that eternity....then have nothing to fear from death itself.  Those who think that THIS life is all there is.........are more likely to accept a 'chip'...or enslavement, or betraying their family&friends....to survive this, the only LIFE they believe they have.  THEY are the ones more easily controlled....and the NWO/ELITES know this.

Let me know if you want some quotes about their 'aims' to destroy man's faith in GOD...I've already posted them elsewhere but got plenty more.   

[echoes]

@ grneyelady
you didn't do anything to address the historical things brought up in that film.  you simply blamed it all on the nwo.  i think we should debate the issues at hand, instead of sweeping it away by simply blaming (even if it is warranted), cuz that isn't really a debate.  its quite the opposite.

[White Rose Sophie]

@ grneyelady
you didn't do anything to address the historical things brought up in that film.  you simply blamed it all on the nwo.  i think we should debate the issues at hand, instead of sweeping it away by simply blaming (even if it is warranted), cuz that isn't really a debate.  its quite the opposite.

Ok, give me an issue and I'm happy to debate it with you.   

[Amishism]

@ grneyelady
you didn't do anything to address the historical things brought up in that film.  you simply blamed it all on the nwo.  i think we should debate the issues at hand, instead of sweeping it away by simply blaming (even if it is warranted), cuz that isn't really a debate.  its quite the opposite.

This thread is about Noah's Ark and the Flood. ZEITGEIST is over here.

[Amishism]

I find all of this very interesting.

Wikipedia reports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

By the time of his death in 1999 his claimed discoveries included:

    * The true Noah's Ark (the Durupinar site, 18¼ miles south of Mount Ararat & altitude of 6,525 feet above sea level)
    * Anchor stones (or drogue stones) used by Noah on the Ark
    * The post-flood house, grave markers and tombs of Noah and his wife
    * The location of Sodom and Gomorrah
    * Sulfur/brimstone balls from the ashen remains of Sodom and Gomorrah
    * The Tower of Babel in Central Turkey
    * The site of the Israelites' crossing of the Red Sea (which Wyatt located in the Gulf of Aqaba)
    * Chariot wheels and other relics of the pursuing army of Pharaoh at the bottom of the Red Sea
    * The true site of the biblical Mt. Sinai (located by Wyatt in Saudi Arabia at Jabal al Lawz)
    * A chamber at the end of a maze of tunnels under Jerusalem containing artifacts from Solomon's Temple
    * The Ark of the Covenant
    * The original stones of the Ten Commandments
    * The true site of the Crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah
    * The Blood of Jesus, dripped onto the Mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant, directly beneath the Crucifixion site

Umm...I'm sorry but it seems completely implausible that this guy owns the market on just about every Christian artifact of significance.

Any more info on this? I'd like to look into it more...

Ron was there

Wyatt Archaeological Research is sponsoring the excavation in Zedekiah's Cave under the full scientific directorship of Yehiel Zelinger of the Israel Antiquities Authority.

Full Ark of the Covenant story including the possible site of the crucifixion and Blood of Christ Jesus. These videos and articles have been removed from the Wyatt website by the new board of directors.
www.wyattarchaeology.com/ark.htm
One of the best films
www.infowars.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=956

[Amishism]

i respect peoples believes but when you argue a point with someone sometimes you have to ask yourself can i be wrong?
 i think the religious stories are very derivative, the same characters seem yo pop up all over the place?  after watching zeitgeist things seemed so rational and clear also a jordan maxwell clip with him explaining the Egyptians Ark anowar story, the great flood, it happened ever year flooding an area and bringing life back to that land?  that made sense to me.
i can see that happening, it happens in lots of places annually.
im not to familiar with the ark story but is it even remotely possible to get all the animals needed in to that boat?  i think the Qe2 would struggle if we had a go now?

when people argue over these things and get annoyed (ive done it myself) it proves how powerful and destructive religious beliefes can be.

which part of the egg shall we open? top or bottom?

HAGO

Was there something in the OP you do not understand?

The global flood is a scientific fact left out of the textbooks.

The fossil record, itself, proves a global flood, contrary to what the textbooks say. When a creature dies, laying on the ground or in the ocean, decomposes and is scavenged upon. The only way to preserve a fossil is to immediately cover it in mineral sediment. This explaines how jellyfish fossils are found, and fish with perfectly preserved fins. These fragile structures would perish in no time but for rapid deposition flood sediment.

This geologic column doesn't exist anywhere on the planet. It is another textbook fabrication. Only sections of it are found with many nonconformities (partial sedimentary layer). The mammals floated to the top in flood waters giving the appearance of age progression and time. If there were vast spans of time there should be erosion between these layers, which is not found.

example of normal erosion

what we find is clean smooth straight lines with no erosion


Found throughout these layers are polystrate fossils (trees spanning multiple layers of alleged time).


On every continent is found a universal chalk layer formed of single cell sea algae. With this layer they've been able to determine, the earth was covered in water, the depth, and how long it was covered, just over one year.

As discussed in Chalk Facts by C. S. Harris and Scholle et al. (1983), the Chalk Formation consists mostly of coccolith biomicrite. A biomicrite is a limestone composed of fossil debris ("bio") and calcium carbonate mud ("micrite"). The majority of the fossil debris comprising this chalk consists of the microscopic plates, which are called coccoliths, of microscopic green algae known as coccolithophores. In addition to the coccoliths, the fossil debris includes a variable, but minor, percentage of the fragments of foraminifera, ostracods, and mollusks. The coccolithophores lived in the upper part of the water column. When they died, the microscopic calcium carbonate plates, which formed their shells settled downward through the ocean water and accumulated on the ocean bottom to form a thick layer of calcareous ooze, which eventually became the Chalk Formation.

Rock layers (strata) show to have been bent while soft. Pillow lava (forms only under water) is found on mountain tops. The list goes on and on. ALL evidence supports the global flood told of in the Bible.

The scientific fact of a global flood has fatal affects on the old age of the earth, explaining catasrophism, while negating several dating methods. With the end of old earth so goes the theory of evolution, which must have billions of years.


The Young Age of the Earth
Dr. Robert Gentry 60 min.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1272542059740401469

a shorter version shows theory of what caused the flood and resulting continents we have today
The Hydroplate Theory
Dr. Walt Brown 6.47 min.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lzI3VbM_fjc

[echoes]

This thread is about Noah's Ark and the Flood. ZEITGEIST is over here.

fair enough, you're right.

[Amishism]

fair enough, you're right.

Thanks. Every thread seems to turn into "does God exist?". That's what we are examining here, just a few pieces of archaeological evidences.

Tho I'm sure someone will go there again. 

[White Rose Sophie]

fair enough, you're right.

So, you going there now?   

I hate to admit it, but I have nothing substantial to say that Amish hasn't already said. And better too.   

[freethinker]

"On every continent is found a universal chalk layer formed of single cell sea algae. With this layer they've been able to determine, the earth was covered in water, the depth, and how long it was covered, just over one year."

what depth?   where did this additional water come from and go to? is it possible there is another explanation to this, the sudden appearance and disappearance of such a large body of water sounds very strange.  i would like a link to this info please if you can?

when do they say this happened?  I would put it in the millions of years ago?

(interesting fact that i will try checking) was this chalk layer found on the top of everest?
my question was how much additional water would the world need now to submerge everest that stands like 29,000 foot of the top of my head, and no i don't mean everest is on top of my head.

"Rock layers (strata) show to have been bent while soft. Pillow lava (forms only under water) is found on mountain tops. The list goes on and on. ALL evidence supports the global flood told of in the Bible."

this statement only goes to show that at some point in time this mountain was underwater. mountainous regions are predominantly found along fault line. for it to have been under water and then at the top of a mountain only suggest that the land mass has been moved due to tectonic activity, this again would take a long times.

this happened millions of years ago didn't it? Noah set sail 2000 and something years ago didn't he?  thats a little late by my reckoning.  hed would have needed t rex on board to and all hell would have let loose then?  (again levity sorry, i just figured it was slightly funny again im not trying to be a dick, even if i come across like that)

Seriously, do you not find it even slightly hard to believe this story?  noah would have had to scower the world to fit all the animals in the boat and the food, this alone would have taken a lifetime. he would have been killing animals left right and centre to feed the other animals, heres are his kitchens needs just a few!

lions  years worth of freshley killed animal (they would also need there food)
tigers   years worth of freshly killed animals (they would also need there food)
giraffs    a years worth of hay each
rhinos  years worth of food
cheaters years worth of live food (which would need their own food)
jaguars   the same
lynx  the same
hippos  a lot of food
the millions of diffrent species of insects!  and their food
elephants and there food not to mention the damage they could do to the boat!
bears and their food dead and alive (the live stuff would all need its food also)

i could go on and on and on and on!  ask the next time your at the zoo how much this creatures put away in a year, even if they're on a crash diet.
noah would have been butchering animals left right and center.

If you cannot admit to harboring a small possibility that the story is just that, nothing more than a fable then my being involved in this conversation is irrelevant, i wish you well.

I cannot stress the fact that i practice religious tolerance to anyone and everyone, as for the nwo trying to abolish it they will no doubt try to get rid of it or use it to turn us against each other and on the track record of history it has been the later time and time again. i will look into some of the things you have stated, If you have a cat or a dog watch how much 2 of those can put away!  14 cans a week between 2 thats 728? cans for a year, theres a lot of room and obviously they didnt have cat food in tins so he would have had to have stuff to kill for them that would have need its own food and on and on same as dog and.....  the ark would need to be the size of an oil tanker!

 i look at other men and women and i could care less what color they are or what they believe, we are all people of the 3rd rock from the sun, we are all one and the same.

HAGO
"War is the enemy of every man"

[Amishism]

"On every continent is found a universal chalk layer formed of single cell sea algae. With this layer they've been able to determine, the earth was covered in water, the depth, and how long it was covered, just over one year."
===========
what depth?   where did this additional water come from and go to? is it possible there is another explanation to this, the sudden appearance and disappearance of such a large body of water sounds very strange.  i would like a link to this info please if you can?

when do they say this happened?  I would put it in the millions of years ago?

(interesting fact that i will try checking) was this chalk layer found on the top of everest?
my question was how much additional water would the world need now to submerge everest that stands like 29,000 foot of the top of my head, and no i don't mean everest is on top of my head.

Underground aquefiers are well known:
Huge Underground "Ocean" Found Beneath Asia
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070227-ocean-asia.html

the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.-Gen.7:11

The water then ran off where it remains today, in the ocean.

The mountains were not pushed up at this time allowing them to be covered, to rapidly rise later due to shelf drift, volcanic activity and other catasrophism, all a result of the flood and resulting weight of the water.

"Rock layers (strata) show to have been bent while soft. Pillow lava (forms only under water) is found on mountain tops. The list goes on and on. ALL evidence supports the global flood told of in the Bible."
==============
this statement only goes to show that at some point in time this mountain was underwater. mountainous regions are predominantly found along fault line. for it to have been under water and then at the top of a mountain only suggest that the land mass has been moved due to tectonic activity, this again would take a long times.

this happened millions of years ago didn't it? Noah set sail 2000 and something years ago didn't he?  thats a little late by my reckoning.  hed would have needed t rex on board to and all hell would have let loose then?  (again levity sorry, i just figured it was slightly funny again im not trying to be a dick, even if i come across like that)

What is implausible is that there have been millions or billion of years. There is still measurable carbon in coal deposites. The granite radio halos shows instant formation, not slow processes. The fact of a global flood destroys many of the methods used to support an old earth and is why the evidence showing the flood is not in the textbooks.

I'm aware evolution and the billions of years old earth is in all the schools and universities, BUT, so too, is the new world order indoctrinating the global population with their free education. It has accurately been called a scientific dictatorship where science is manipulated to discredit the Bible, because Christians will not obey the rulers over God.

Noah is said to have sailed the flood around 4400 years ago. Much evidence agrees with this figure, such as the erosion rate of Niagara Falls, sediment wash into the Gulf of Mexico and measurable pressure in oil wells.

If the dinos made the Ark they would have been smaller, as they are hatched from eggs.

Seriously, do you not find it even slightly hard to believe this story?  noah would have had to scower the world to fit all the animals in the boat and the food, this alone would have taken a lifetime. he would have been killing animals left right and centre to feed the other animals, heres are his kitchens needs just a few!

lions  years worth of freshley killed animal (they would also need there food)
tigers   years worth of freshly killed animals (they would also need there food)
giraffs    a years worth of hay each
rhinos  years worth of food
cheaters years worth of live food (which would need their own food)
jaguars   the same
lynx  the same
hippos  a lot of food
the millions of diffrent species of insects!  and their food
elephants and there food not to mention the damage they could do to the boat!
bears and their food dead and alive (the live stuff would all need its food also)

i could go on and on and on and on!  ask the next time your at the zoo how much this creatures put away in a year, even if they're on a crash diet.
noah would have been butchering animals left right and center.

The Bible says God did supernaturally bring Noah the animals. Noah worked on the Ark for 120 years. Before the flood there was less surface water making the large super-continent. Animals have an instinct to know when troubling weather is coming. There was plenty of water, I don't think he would have to stoe water. There are links posted earlier calculating the animals and kinds of animals that would need to be on the Ark to give us what we have today and fit the instructions given in the Bible. You're not facoring in hybernation. Only air breathing land animals by kinds were brought. There was plenty of room.

Really, if there was a global flood (and there was), how did life continue?

If you cannot admit to harboring a small possibility that the story is just that, nothing more than a fable then my being involved in this conversation is irrelevant, i wish you well.

I cannot stress the fact that i practice religious tolerance to anyone and everyone, as for the nwo trying to abolish it they will no doubt try to get rid of it or use it to turn us against each other and on the track record of history it has been the later time and time again. i will look into some of the things you have stated, If you have a cat or a dog watch how much 2 of those can put away!  14 cans a week between 2 thats 728? cans for a year, theres a lot of room and obviously they didnt have cat food in tins so he would have had to have stuff to kill for them that would have need its own food and on and on same as dog and.....  the ark would need to be the size of an oil tanker!

 i look at other men and women and i could care less what color they are or what they believe, we are all people of the 3rd rock from the sun, we are all one and the same.

HAGO
"War is the enemy of every man"

A fable? and yet there is a large boat and evidence of a global flood which fits the biblical account. What I find a fable is evolution and the billion year old earth.

When identifying the nwo, religion (Christianity) will come up, because that is what it is about. The Holy Roman Empire did use Christianity and restrict access to the Bible, keeping the people dumb and subserviant to the Church. This is still going on today. Bible believing Christians will not serve or be ruled over by the Pope, when they can read where it says put no man above God the Creator. Everybody has to make a choice, but they can't make the choice without knowing the truth.

I'm glad you practice tolerance, but do you want the government printing textbooks filled with fabrications forcing children and the public to study it, while it violates Christian  rights? Truth in science is a great thing, but I'm sorry to say that is not what we have in schools today, that also goes for history, ect.

[Femacamper]

So how many windows did god tell Noah to make,after all Noah was only building to Gods instructions.


Genesis.6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
   
6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

That says to me god told Noah to build this massive,largest all wooden gopher treed ark ever built,with only one window 18" square.The methane gas from the animal shit would kill everything within hours.What did they do with the tons of shit,maybe they threw it all out of the 18" window over Australia and that is what Ayers Rock is.

POINT 2.
If the flood covered the highest mountain{Everest 29000 feet}and the flood killed all living things then how did the dove find a leaf from an olive tree.All olive trees will die if submerged under water and a seed could not germinate and grow within 7 days.

POINT 3,

Where did all the water go,it evaporates turns into clouds and rains straight back again.To clear that much water would take thousands of years not 40 days.

Point 4.
If only two of each animal were taken on the ark then every animal species on the planet are inbred,pretty much like humans seeing as Eve was the only female.Was it Cain or Abel that did his own mother.The inbreeding could explain the Aussies weird and wonderful animals.Kangaroos and Duck Billed Platypus are obviously the result of God having some left over parts and an enormous spliff.

Let's address some points here, jannerbob. It is not necessary—or required by Scripture—to appeal to miracles for the provision and daily care of the animals on the Ark. Many solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems are rather straightforward.

We must distinguish between the long-term care required for animals kept in zoos and the temporary, emergency care required on the Ark. The animals’ comfort and healthy appearance were not essential for emergency survival during one stressful year, where survival was the primary goal.

Proposed manure removing plan for the Ark



Animal enclosures with sloped, self-cleaning floors, emptying into a manure gutter or pit.

Studies of nonmechanized animal care indicate that eight people could have fed and watered 16,000 creatures. The key is to avoid unnecessary walking around. As the old adage says, “Don’t work harder, work smarter.”

Therefore, Noah probably stored the food and water near each animal. Even better, drinking water could have been piped into troughs, just as the Chinese have used bamboo pipes for this purpose for thousands of years. The use of some sort of self-feeders, as is commonly done for birds, would have been relatively easy and probably essential. Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets. Of course, this assumes that animals with specialized diets today were likewise specialized at the time of the Flood.

How Did the Animals Breathe?

John Woodmorappe has been a researcher in the areas of biology, geology, and paleontology for over twenty years. He has two B.A. degrees and an M.A. in geology. John has also been a public school science teacher.
Based on Woodmorappe's two decades of research, he does not believe that anything more was needed than a basic, non-mechanical ventilation system. The density of animals on the Ark, compared to the volume of enclosed space, was much less than we find in some modern, mass animal housing used to keep stock raised for food (such as chicken farms), which requires no special mechanical ventilation.

It is reasonable to believe that one relatively small window would have adequately ventilated the Ark. Of course if there were a window along the top center section, which the Bible allows, all occupants would be even more comfortable. It is also interesting to note that the convective movement of air, driven by temperature differences between the warm-blooded animals and the cold interior surfaces, would have been significant enough to drive the flow of air. Plus, wind blowing into the window would have enhanced the ventilation further. However, if supplementary ventilation was necessary, it could have been provided by wave motion, fire thermal, or even a small number of animals harnessed to slow-moving rotary fans.

What Did Noah and His Family Do with the Animal Waste?

As much as 12 U.S. tons (11 m. tons) of animal waste may have been produced daily. The key to keeping the enclosures clean was to avoid the need for Noah and his family to do the work. The right systems could also prevent the need to change animal bedding. Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in modern pet shops. In this regard, there could have been slatted floors, and animals could have trampled their waste into the pits below. Small animals, such as birds, could have multiple levels in their enclosures, and waste could have simply accumulated at the bottom of each.

The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the Ark, which would have allowed manure gases to be constantly released. Secondly, methane, which is half the density of air, would quickly find its way out of a small opening such as a window. There is no reason to believe that the levels of these gases within the Ark would have approached hazardous levels.

Alternatively, sloped floors would have allowed the waste to flow into large central gutters. Noah’s family could have then dumped this overboard without an excessive expenditure of manpower.

The problem of manure odor may, at first thought, seem insurmountable. But we must remember that, throughout most of human history, humans lived together with their farm animals. Barns, separate from human living quarters, are a relatively recent development.

While the voyage of the Ark may not have been comfortable or easy, it was certainly doable, even under such unprecedented circumstances.

A Look Inside the Ark



This is a cross-section view of a possible design of the interior of the Ark.

Possible Ark layout

Three Decks

Genesis 6:16 instructs that the Ark is to be made “with lower, second, and third decks” (NKJV). In this version of the Ark’s interior, there are two levels that do not extend across the entire width of the ship. These half-floors are not separate levels.

Animal Housing

Genesis 6:14 instructs Noah to “make rooms [nests] in the ark” (NKJV). These rooms or nests would simply be stalls and cages for the animals.

Stairs

Several staircases and ladders could be fitted throughout the Ark to gain quick access to another deck. Ramps near the ends of the hull (as seen in Thinking Outside the Box) could be used to get animals and heavy loads between decks.

A model of the Ark



This scale model shows the effective design of Noah’s Ark. This second-floor model shows the extra half-floor within the three deck structure that could have been used for possible storage or animal housing.
Food & Water

Mezzanine levels improve access to food storage, utilizing gravity to supply grain and water to the animal enclosures below. Water could be directed in pipes (metal, wood, leather, bamboo, etc.) from tanks on upper levels.

Light & Ventilation

The central skylight provides lighting and ventilation to the center section of the Ark. Slatted floors maximize airflow to the lower decks.

POINT 2

The fact that the dove returned to Noah with an olive leaf in his beak indicates that plant life was already growing even before the waters were dried up.

The flood waters began during Noah's 600th year, 2nd month, on the 17th day. It rained for 40 days and nights. God then stopped the water and for the next 150 days (5 months) the waters were in the process of receding because of a strong wind that God sent to pass over the earth. [approximately 6.5 months covered here]

In the 7th month of Noah's 600th year (during that 150 days), on the 17th day, the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat. The ark was about 45 feet high, but only a portion of that would have been underwater. So in the seventh month of Noah's 600th year, the water was shallow enough that the ark found a resting place somewhere in the mountains of Ararat.

On the 1st day of the tenth month of Noah's 600th year, the tops of the mountains were visible (to Noah apparently). [7.5 months from day Flood started to here]

The conditions after the Flood were more than likely quite different than they are today. The earth would have been very fertile after all that "stirring up by the waters", and the climate was much better than today. (All recognizable by the long life-spans for several hundred years after the Flood.)

40 days after the mountain tops were visible, Noah sent out a raven and a dove. The dove returned, finding no rest ("manowach" meaning a quiet, settled spot or 'home'). (This would have been in the middle of the 11th month of Noah's 600th year)

7days later, Noah sent out another dove which returned with an olive leaf.

So if a seed germinated at the very end of the 9th month of Noah's 600th year (1st day of 10th month when Noah saw the mountain tops [dirt]), it would be very possible that in the 11.5 month of Noah's 600th year (1 and 1/2 months later) a "plant" would have grown from that seed, and had leaves on it's stalk, just as it would even today in that time-span.

So could an olive tree grow and produced at least one leaf in a month and a half? Yes. I would think even a shorter time than that.

It is thought by some that plants would have been unable to survive the Biblical flood. However, plants have adaptive abilities that surpass all other multicellular organisms, and are therefore perhaps the most difficult to completely exterminate of any organism on earth. This is due to an extraordinary ability to reproduce during times of stress, and also because unlike other sexually reproducing organisms, most plants can self fertilize and therefore are able to alter their genome more dramatically without the worry of being able to find a sexually compatible mate.

All plants respond to stress by reproducing through either sexual or vegetative reproduction. Plants will sacrifice all metabolic reserves to rapidly set seed when the conditions indicate winter or draught is coming. Seeds that were set before the flood could easily have survived the event because they are designed to weather a period of hardship and not germinate immediately after maturation. Seeds enter a state of dormancy and are equipped with a seed coat possessing sufficient density to prevent precocious germination during the winter or dry season. The seed coat must decompose or be breeched so water can penetrate and break dormancy before the seed will germinate. Such decomposition is typically accomplished by bacteria and fungi, which like plant embryos are not metabolically active at temperatures expected during the flood. In addition, some seeds (such as cherry) will not germinate for years unless they pass through the digestive tract of an animal first.

Although seeds could survive the flood, no plant needs to generate seed to reproduced. Most plants readily undergo vegetative propagation. It is well known that plants send out runners and reproduce through vegetative nodes, but a more remarkable ability exists. Plants can spawn a clone of itself from any cell. Through the process known as organogenesis or somatic embryogenesis, a plant will emerge from a mass of wound tissue. Regeneration through this mechanism demonstrates a level of survivability not possessed by any other group of organisms.

Regenerated CornPlant genetic transformations are now being performed with regularity. The success of these techniques is in part due to the development of strategies to regenerate an entire plant from a single cell. This is required to obtain a transformant that is not a genetic chimeric, and ensure the inheritance of the transgene. Regeneration strategies have now been worked-out for most plants, and it is relatively certain that all plants can reproduce without seed or reproductive organs.

Organogenesis can occur when a cell mass called callus forms crude plant organs and shoot apical meristem can emerge. However, the development of a functionally mature plant from these regenerants is frequently morphologically challenged. To obtain a normal reproducible plant the researcher should isolate a proper embryo. Out of a colony of plant tissue, a perfect embryo can be isolated which resulted from the metamorphosis of a single cell through somatic embryogenesis. Although hormonal induction of embryogenesis is most common, other strategies simply stress the plant cell lines to trigger the reproductive response. Frustrating cells lines from tissue formation or growing cultures in the dark or along-side necrotic or dying material will also frequently induce somatic embryogenesis.

It is likely that the post-flood world was recolonized both from seeds which remained dormant during the flood, and from vegetative propagation of one form or another. Plants as individuals can become extremely well adapted to specific conditions making them sensitive to rapid changes in conditions. Perhaps it is for this reason that they were equipped with reproductive mechanisms not found in any other multicellular organism. If there had been a need to store seeds along with the animals on the ark, this directive would have also been given to Noah. However, as we have seen following many such catastrophes, God's creation possesses an amazing ability to reestablish itself, and such biological recovery always begins with the appearance of plants.

POINT 3

I believe that after some time continental drift would have occurred rapidly due to the pressures of the water as fault lines would have appeared. This could cause water to sink into cracks in the earth, and could create sudden formations of new mountains. The resulting displacement would create a gradual receding of the waters as they leaked deep into the earth and as mountains were created through continental shifting(much of which can be attributed to earthquakes and volcanic activities that would have been associate with a global flood).

POINT 4

During the early years after Genesis the world was a much cleaner environment, and animal species lived longer and thus grew bigger and healthier. In this pristine, greenhouse-like scenario, it can be assumed that genetic information in the species was very healthy.

[Femacamper]

Further analysis and in-depth explanation of how life survived after the ark found here:
http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:ow6jl3Yi2NgJ:creationwiki.org/Plants_could_have_survived_the_Flood+http://creationwiki.org/Plants_could_have_survived_the_Flood&hl=vi&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=vn&client=firefox-a

[jannerbob]

Let's address some points here, jannerbob. It is not necessary—or required by Scripture—to appeal to miracles for the provision and daily care of the animals on the Ark. Many solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems are rather straightforward.

We must distinguish between the long-term care required for animals kept in zoos and the temporary, emergency care required on the Ark. The animals’ comfort and healthy appearance were not essential for emergency survival during one stressful year, where survival was the primary goal.

Proposed manure removing plan for the Ark



Animal enclosures with sloped, self-cleaning floors, emptying into a manure gutter or pit.

Studies of nonmechanized animal care indicate that eight people could have fed and watered 16,000 creatures. The key is to avoid unnecessary walking around. As the old adage says, “Don’t work harder, work smarter.”

Therefore, Noah probably stored the food and water near each animal. Even better, drinking water could have been piped into troughs, just as the Chinese have used bamboo pipes for this purpose for thousands of years. The use of some sort of self-feeders, as is commonly done for birds, would have been relatively easy and probably essential. Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets. Of course, this assumes that animals with specialized diets today were likewise specialized at the time of the Flood.

How Did the Animals Breathe?

John Woodmorappe has been a researcher in the areas of biology, geology, and paleontology for over twenty years. He has two B.A. degrees and an M.A. in geology. John has also been a public school science teacher.
Based on Woodmorappe's two decades of research, he does not believe that anything more was needed than a basic, non-mechanical ventilation system. The density of animals on the Ark, compared to the volume of enclosed space, was much less than we find in some modern, mass animal housing used to keep stock raised for food (such as chicken farms), which requires no special mechanical ventilation.

It is reasonable to believe that one relatively small window would have adequately ventilated the Ark. Of course if there were a window along the top center section, which the Bible allows, all occupants would be even more comfortable. It is also interesting to note that the convective movement of air, driven by temperature differences between the warm-blooded animals and the cold interior surfaces, would have been significant enough to drive the flow of air. Plus, wind blowing into the window would have enhanced the ventilation further. However, if supplementary ventilation was necessary, it could have been provided by wave motion, fire thermal, or even a small number of animals harnessed to slow-moving rotary fans.

What Did Noah and His Family Do with the Animal Waste?

As much as 12 U.S. tons (11 m. tons) of animal waste may have been produced daily. The key to keeping the enclosures clean was to avoid the need for Noah and his family to do the work. The right systems could also prevent the need to change animal bedding. Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in modern pet shops. In this regard, there could have been slatted floors, and animals could have trampled their waste into the pits below. Small animals, such as birds, could have multiple levels in their enclosures, and waste could have simply accumulated at the bottom of each.

The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the Ark, which would have allowed manure gases to be constantly released. Secondly, methane, which is half the density of air, would quickly find its way out of a small opening such as a window. There is no reason to believe that the levels of these gases within the Ark would have approached hazardous levels.

Alternatively, sloped floors would have allowed the waste to flow into large central gutters. Noah’s family could have then dumped this overboard without an excessive expenditure of manpower.

The problem of manure odor may, at first thought, seem insurmountable. But we must remember that, throughout most of human history, humans lived together with their farm animals. Barns, separate from human living quarters, are a relatively recent development.

While the voyage of the Ark may not have been comfortable or easy, it was certainly doable, even under such unprecedented circumstances.

A Look Inside the Ark



This is a cross-section view of a possible design of the interior of the Ark.

Possible Ark layout

Three Decks

Genesis 6:16 instructs that the Ark is to be made “with lower, second, and third decks” (NKJV). In this version of the Ark’s interior, there are two levels that do not extend across the entire width of the ship. These half-floors are not separate levels.

Animal Housing

Genesis 6:14 instructs Noah to “make rooms [nests] in the ark” (NKJV). These rooms or nests would simply be stalls and cages for the animals.

Stairs

Several staircases and ladders could be fitted throughout the Ark to gain quick access to another deck. Ramps near the ends of the hull (as seen in Thinking Outside the Box) could be used to get animals and heavy loads between decks.

A model of the Ark



This scale model shows the effective design of Noah’s Ark. This second-floor model shows the extra half-floor within the three deck structure that could have been used for possible storage or animal housing.
Food & Water

Mezzanine levels improve access to food storage, utilizing gravity to supply grain and water to the animal enclosures below. Water could be directed in pipes (metal, wood, leather, bamboo, etc.) from tanks on upper levels.

Light & Ventilation

The central skylight provides lighting and ventilation to the center section of the Ark. Slatted floors maximize airflow to the lower decks.

POINT 2

The fact that the dove returned to Noah with an olive leaf in his beak indicates that plant life was already growing even before the waters were dried up.

The flood waters began during Noah's 600th year, 2nd month, on the 17th day. It rained for 40 days and nights. God then stopped the water and for the next 150 days (5 months) the waters were in the process of receding because of a strong wind that God sent to pass over the earth. [approximately 6.5 months covered here]

In the 7th month of Noah's 600th year (during that 150 days), on the 17th day, the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat. The ark was about 45 feet high, but only a portion of that would have been underwater. So in the seventh month of Noah's 600th year, the water was shallow enough that the ark found a resting place somewhere in the mountains of Ararat.

On the 1st day of the tenth month of Noah's 600th year, the tops of the mountains were visible (to Noah apparently). [7.5 months from day Flood started to here]

The conditions after the Flood were more than likely quite different than they are today. The earth would have been very fertile after all that "stirring up by the waters", and the climate was much better than today. (All recognizable by the long life-spans for several hundred years after the Flood.)

40 days after the mountain tops were visible, Noah sent out a raven and a dove. The dove returned, finding no rest ("manowach" meaning a quiet, settled spot or 'home'). (This would have been in the middle of the 11th month of Noah's 600th year)

7days later, Noah sent out another dove which returned with an olive leaf.

So if a seed germinated at the very end of the 9th month of Noah's 600th year (1st day of 10th month when Noah saw the mountain tops [dirt]), it would be very possible that in the 11.5 month of Noah's 600th year (1 and 1/2 months later) a "plant" would have grown from that seed, and had leaves on it's stalk, just as it would even today in that time-span.

So could an olive tree grow and produced at least one leaf in a month and a half? Yes. I would think even a shorter time than that.

It is thought by some that plants would have been unable to survive the Biblical flood. However, plants have adaptive abilities that surpass all other multicellular organisms, and are therefore perhaps the most difficult to completely exterminate of any organism on earth. This is due to an extraordinary ability to reproduce during times of stress, and also because unlike other sexually reproducing organisms, most plants can self fertilize and therefore are able to alter their genome more dramatically without the worry of being able to find a sexually compatible mate.

All plants respond to stress by reproducing through either sexual or vegetative reproduction. Plants will sacrifice all metabolic reserves to rapidly set seed when the conditions indicate winter or draught is coming. Seeds that were set before the flood could easily have survived the event because they are designed to weather a period of hardship and not germinate immediately after maturation. Seeds enter a state of dormancy and are equipped with a seed coat possessing sufficient density to prevent precocious germination during the winter or dry season. The seed coat must decompose or be breeched so water can penetrate and break dormancy before the seed will germinate. Such decomposition is typically accomplished by bacteria and fungi, which like plant embryos are not metabolically active at temperatures expected during the flood. In addition, some seeds (such as cherry) will not germinate for years unless they pass through the digestive tract of an animal first.

Although seeds could survive the flood, no plant needs to generate seed to reproduced. Most plants readily undergo vegetative propagation. It is well known that plants send out runners and reproduce through vegetative nodes, but a more remarkable ability exists. Plants can spawn a clone of itself from any cell. Through the process known as organogenesis or somatic embryogenesis, a plant will emerge from a mass of wound tissue. Regeneration through this mechanism demonstrates a level of survivability not possessed by any other group of organisms.

Regenerated CornPlant genetic transformations are now being performed with regularity. The success of these techniques is in part due to the development of strategies to regenerate an entire plant from a single cell. This is required to obtain a transformant that is not a genetic chimeric, and ensure the inheritance of the transgene. Regeneration strategies have now been worked-out for most plants, and it is relatively certain that all plants can reproduce without seed or reproductive organs.

Organogenesis can occur when a cell mass called callus forms crude plant organs and shoot apical meristem can emerge. However, the development of a functionally mature plant from these regenerants is frequently morphologically challenged. To obtain a normal reproducible plant the researcher should isolate a proper embryo. Out of a colony of plant tissue, a perfect embryo can be isolated which resulted from the metamorphosis of a single cell through somatic embryogenesis. Although hormonal induction of embryogenesis is most common, other strategies simply stress the plant cell lines to trigger the reproductive response. Frustrating cells lines from tissue formation or growing cultures in the dark or along-side necrotic or dying material will also frequently induce somatic embryogenesis.

It is likely that the post-flood world was recolonized both from seeds which remained dormant during the flood, and from vegetative propagation of one form or another. Plants as individuals can become extremely well adapted to specific conditions making them sensitive to rapid changes in conditions. Perhaps it is for this reason that they were equipped with reproductive mechanisms not found in any other multicellular organism. If there had been a need to store seeds along with the animals on the ark, this directive would have also been given to Noah. However, as we have seen following many such catastrophes, God's creation possesses an amazing ability to reestablish itself, and such biological recovery always begins with the appearance of plants.

POINT 3

I believe that after some time continental drift would have occurred rapidly due to the pressures of the water as fault lines would have appeared. This could cause water to sink into cracks in the earth, and could create sudden formations of new mountains. The resulting displacement would create a gradual receding of the waters as they leaked deep into the earth and as mountains were created through continental shifting(much of which can be attributed to earthquakes and volcanic activities that would have been associate with a global flood).

POINT 4

During the early years after Genesis the world was a much cleaner environment, and animal species lived longer and thus grew bigger and healthier. In this pristine, greenhouse-like scenario, it can be assumed that genetic information in the species was very healthy.

I have to say i have the utmost respect for how much time you have spent examining this but feel that may have or could have do not really suffice.You are in a no win situation trying to prove the existance of the ark or that God created a flood to kill everything.Where i live every year it seems that a flood occurs when the tide is at its highest point.A few months ago we were in the pub discussing floodwater and an old guy we all know and respect said"This flood is nothing in 1928 there was a flood that reached this high,pointing to a hill that had to be 40 foot above sea level.Of course we all laughed at him but he was adamant his father had told him.So to recap he was told of a flood that was a physical impossibility and believed it.That is how humans are,if i say a flood was 20 feet high and i tell my children and they tell their children after 500 years that flood was a 100 foot high.There probably was a global flood,heat makes the icecaps melt loads of water,bingo floods.Did it cover the whole planet and did god cause it,of course it didn,t its physically impossible.Weird stuff happens like raining frogs but there is always a logical answer for it,thats just the way my brain works.
Keep at what you are doing though,my mind is never totally closed.The older i get the more i realize most of what i thought was real was only an illusion.History is written by historians,they can turn and twist events to their hearts content.The bible can be taken in the context of being gospel,history books can not.I remember arguing with an old girlfriend and she whacked me with her handbag giving me a proper shiner.At work the next day i told everybody i had a fight with 3 matelots{sailors}and i was everybodies hero.See how easy it is to start something off,i mean how could i tell them i had been beaten up by a girl. .Like i said it is human nature to exaggerate.If you have a black cat i bet you that my cat is blacker than your cat.

[Amishism]

I have to say i have the utmost respect for how much time you have spent examining this but feel that may have or could have do not really suffice.You are in a no win situation trying to prove the existance of the ark or that God created a flood to kill everything.Where i live every year it seems that a flood occurs when the tide is at its highest point.A few months ago we were in the pub discussing floodwater and an old guy we all know and respect said"This flood is nothing in 1928 there was a flood that reached this high,pointing to a hill that had to be 40 foot above sea level.Of course we all laughed at him but he was adamant his father had told him.So to recap he was told of a flood that was a physical impossibility and believed it.That is how humans are,if i say a flood was 20 feet high and i tell my children and they tell their children after 500 years that flood was a 100 foot high.There probably was a global flood,heat makes the icecaps melt loads of water,bingo floods.Did it cover the whole planet and did god cause it,of course it didn,t its physically impossible.Weird stuff happens like raining frogs but there is always a logical answer for it,thats just the way my brain works.
Keep at what you are doing though,my mind is never totally closed.The older i get the more i realize most of what i thought was real was only an illusion.History is written by historians,they can turn and twist events to their hearts content.The bible can be taken in the context of being gospel,history books can not.I remember arguing with an old girlfriend and she whacked me with her handbag giving me a proper shiner.At work the next day i told everybody i had a fight with 3 matelots{sailors}and i was everybodies hero.See how easy it is to start something off,i mean how could i tell them i had been beaten up by a girl. .Like i said it is human nature to exaggerate.If you have a black cat i bet you that my cat is blacker than your cat.

Explain these physical evidences which are presented in support of a global flood. Then go back to the OP and point out what you don't understand with the Ark evidences.

polystrate fossils (trees spanning multiple layers of alleged time).


On every continent is found a universal chalk layer formed of single cell sea algae. With this layer they've been able to determine the earth was covered in water, the depth and how long it was covered, just over one year.

As discussed in Chalk Facts by C. S. Harris and Scholle et al. (1983), the Chalk Formation consists mostly of coccolith biomicrite. A biomicrite is a limestone composed of fossil debris ("bio") and calcium carbonate mud ("micrite"). The majority of the fossil debris comprising this chalk consists of the microscopic plates, which are called coccoliths, of microscopic green algae known as coccolithophores. In addition to the coccoliths, the fossil debris includes a variable, but minor, percentage of the fragments of foraminifera, ostracods, and mollusks. The coccolithophores lived in the upper part of the water column. When they died, the microscopic calcium carbonate plates, which formed their shells settled downward through the ocean water and accumulated on the ocean bottom to form a thick layer of calcareous ooze, which eventually became the Chalk Formation.

There really is no explaining them, because there was a global flood. You can keep denying it to support your dogmatic beliefs, but it will not change the science.

further proof shown by Prof. Walter Veith
Evolution or Creation: What do the Rocks Reveal? The Flood?
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-5521410965822202656

[echoes]

i thought this was about the ark, not evolution?
regardless, i happen to fall in the middle here.  years ago i realized evolution is a reality.  it can be observed & has been hundreds if not thousands of times.  why do antibacterial soaps have to keep being changed, its cuz the bacteria adapt/evolve to it.  the same reason a lot of antibiotics & antiviruses aren't working any more.  (and this is just a few examples).
i happen to believe, not just cuz evolution is observable, that god used evolution as a means for his creation not being wiped out rather quickly.  why on earth (no pun intended) would he make creation non-adaptable in an ever-changing world?

[Amishism]

i thought this was about the ark, not evolution?
regardless, i happen to fall in the middle here.  years ago i realized evolution is a reality.  it can be observed & has been hundreds if not thousands of times.  why do antibacterial soaps have to keep being changed, its cuz the bacteria adapt/evolve to it.  the same reason a lot of antibiotics & antiviruses aren't working any more.  (and this is just a few examples).
i happen to believe, not just cuz evolution is observable, that god used evolution as a means for his creation not being wiped out rather quickly.  why on earth (no pun intended) would he make creation non-adaptable in an ever-changing world?

John,

The topic of the flood came up which then leads into evolution due to evolutionist claim it takes millions of years for evolution, time that does not exist given flood science.

Genetic variation within a kind is most certainly built in. Look at all the differences of any kind whether bears or the canine or birds, or the virus / bacteria. Natural selection preserves the strongest in the gene pool and in no way leads to any evolution. If you know of any virus that changes into something other than a virus it will make history.

The Origin of Variety: Evolution or Creation?
Prof. Walter Veith
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-2742098470377340245

[Femacamper]

Jannerbob, I encourage you to watch the video Amishism mentioned. I've seen similar videos and they've really opened up my eyes. I am no longer convinced of impossibility.

As for "impossible" floods, you should have seen the tsunami in Thailand. They happen.

It's encouraging to hear that you are considering all possibilities. I think we should open our minds to the truth, because sometimes the world around is like a matrix; an illusion. Once we see through that matrix, we have taken the right step.

further proof shown by Prof. Walter Veith
Evolution or Creation: What do the Rocks Reveal? The Flood?
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-5521410965822202656

[echoes]

John,
The topic of the flood came up which then leads into evolution due to evolutionist claim it takes millions of years for evolution, time that does not exist given flood science.

evolution is not a one-fits-all.  its different for everything, time-wise.  some things may take millions of years, other thing may not; such as bacteria/viri.
look at birds & dinosaurs. how does anyone explain away the connections?  many dinosaurs were feathered and/or protofeathered & had wishbones.  (found only in birds).  take T. Rex for example, the babies were feathered & the mothers when pregnant had the same type of tissue around the pelvic girdle to prepare for birth that is only found in one of type of animal: birds.
or look at archaeopteryx.  it had jaws with sharp teeth, three fingers with claws, feathers and protofeathers, a long bony tail, & hyperextensible second toes.

although, interestingly enough, some of the closest living relatives of some types of dinosaurs are not birds.  to be thorough, for instance, although i mentioned T. Rex as having many bird-like features, its closest living relative is the american alligator.  so perhaps that was not the best example.  but it is an intersting one.

i think this is a very good demystification of evolution:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php

[Amishism]

evolution is not a one-fits-all.

I'm not trying to be curt with you, johnsmith, its just that you keep making unsubstantiated statements disregarding previous post already made relying on your textbook which I have thrown in the trash for lack of evidence and fabrications.

Evolution does-not-happen at all. There are built in wide genetic variation allowables that give us the changes we see within a kind.

"Evolution" implies upward change. This is far different from environmental adaptation, which in no way will ever produce another kind. A bear will always be a bear, a horse will always be a horse, cats, ect. ect. dinos were always dinos and birds have always been birds. Any belief otherwise is just that a belief and not science.

its different for everything, time-wise.  some things may take millions of years,

There are no millions of years (as shown earlier). Anything you think took millions of years, should be re-examined.

other thing may not; such as bacteria/viri.

No evolution takes place with either a virus or bacteria (as shown earlier). Natural selection does not cause any evolution. The virus or bact has always remained within its kind, never became another creature. It is observable that it does not evolve.

Antibiotic Resistance of Bacteria: An Example of Evolution in Action?
by Georgia Purdom, Ph.D.

Scientists are dismayed to discover that some bacteria have become resistant to antibiotics through various alterations, or mutations, in their DNA.

Hospitals have become a breeding ground for antibiotic resistant bacteria. These bacteria proliferate in an environment filled with sick people who have poor immune systems and where antibiotics have eliminated competing bacteria that are not resistant.

Bacteria that are resistant to modern antibiotics have even been found in the frozen bodies of people who died long before those antibiotics were discovered or synthesized.

The mechanisms of mutation and natural selection aid bacteria populations in becoming resistant to antibiotics. However, mutation and natural selection also result in bacteria with defective proteins that have lost their normal functions.

Evolution requires a gain of functional systems for bacteria to evolve into man—functioning arms, eyeballs, and a brain, to name a few.

Mutation and natural selection, thought to be the driving forces of evolution, only lead to a loss of functional systems. Therefore, antibiotic resistance of bacteria is not an example of evolution in action but rather variation within a bacterial kind.

example: The police come around and try to hand-cuff 10 people at the pub, one has no arms so they leave him (he was not involved in the fist fight). He survived the arrest due to natural selection. Is he still a man?

Side not: Some Russian evolutionist use to actually believe that if they cut the limbs off of an animal that it would eventually be born limbless. This was of coarse before genetics and dna research were where they are today.

look at birds & dinosaurs. how does anyone explain away the connections?  many dinosaurs were feathered and/or protofeathered & had wishbones.  (found only in birds).  take T. Rex for example, the babies were feathered & the mothers when pregnant had the same type of tissue around the pelvic girdle to prepare for birth that is only found in one of type of animal: birds.

Dinosaurs were only feathered in the textbooks, to sell the pagan fantasy of evolution. You are trying to say snakes and lizards had feathers. That's rich.

Reptiles with feathers?
Dr. David Menton

Dr. David Menton is Associate Professor of Anatomy at the Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis, Missouri. Dr Carl Wieland talks with him, and he reveals some fascinating new thoughts on that controversial ‘early bird’, Archaeopteryx.

Evolutionists have long argued that feathers evolved from reptile scales and are thus fundamentally the same structure — very similar.

Feather proteins (f-keratins) are biochemically different from skin and scale proteins (a-keratins). An evolutionary feather expert, Alan Brush, concludes:

"At the morphological level feathers are traditionally considered homologous with reptilian scales. However, in development, morphogenesis, gene structure, protein shape and sequence, and filament formation and structure, feathers are different."
[A.H. Brush, ‘On the origin of feathers’, Journal of Evolutionary Biology 9:131–142, 1996.]

It’s quite different. The most fundamental difference is that the feather grows out of a follicle. A follicle is a tubular down-growth of the epidermis that protrudes deeply into the skin — all the way down to underlying bone in the case of primary feathers. And this tube of specialized living skin produces the feather inside of itself from a growth matrix at the very bottom. The reptilian scale has absolutely nothing to do with follicles. All of the scales can shed as a sheet because they’re nothing but folds in the epidermis, like fabric folded over on itself, whereas feathers would have to come out of their own follicle.

‘Follicles’ brings ‘hair’ to mind.

Indeed. The list shown here gives 18 very nontrivial similarities between feathers and hairs. So, if evolutionists really wanted to make a case, they could argue that feathers evolved from hair, or vice versa. Now, of course, that wouldn’t fit the evolutionary belief that mammals and birds evolved independently from reptiles. So hardly anyone gets to know that in fact, it’s hairs, not scales, that are similar to feathers.

The textbook authors have been caught many times fabricating fossils and plaster cast of bones so any claim of a "wishbone" needed for flight in a large land animal, such as a t-rex, are highly suspect. You have not proven any such thing exist.

Sue the T. rex
Dr. Jonathan Sarfati

In Sue, the two shoulder blades seem to be joined by a very small, almost straight piece of bone, and this was supposed to suggest that this was a wishbone like a bird’s. But a bird’s wishbone is a highly specialised v-shaped bone, the equivalent of two joined clavicles (‘collar bones’), and very springy so it can support wing motion.

or look at archaeopteryx.  it had jaws with sharp teeth, three fingers with claws, feathers and protofeathers, a long bony tail, & hyperextensible second toes. although, interestingly enough, some of the closest living relatives of some types of dinosaurs are not birds.

Just a bird. God created all animals, they will have similar characteristics. Other birds have some of those same features, the teeth, the clawed wings. It is a complete bird with complete features, nothing transitional.

from earlier link:
The general consensus now is that the brain is essentially that of a flying bird, with a large cerebellum and visual cortex.

Also, in most vertebrates, including reptiles, the mandible (lower jaw) moves, but in birds (including Archaeopteryx) so does the maxilla (upper jaw).

Dino bones have been found with blood and tissue
www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html
www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i4/blood.asp
Evidence of hemoglobin, and the still-recognizable shapes of red blood cells, in unfossilized dinosaur bone is powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible’s account of a recent creation.

to be thorough, for instance, although i mentioned T. Rex as having many bird-like features, its closest living relative is the american alligator. so perhaps that was not the best example.  but it is an intersting one.

i think this is a very good demystification of evolution:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php

There's nothing mystifying about evolution, it's in all the schools. Everybody knows what evolution is. Evolution is in refute. When you get the marxist professors at berzerkly to answer questions that will be something to look at.

[echoes]

you're completely standing documented fact on its head.  if you seriously believe that there is a pagan conspiracy for everything (which you seems to throw out whenever you want to strawman something) bigger than anything alex has ever talked about, you're living in as big a fantasy world as our president.
you need to go look at the fossils themselves.  they did indeed have feathers & protofeathers.  you really need to look at things for yourself before dismissing cuz they don't fit into "your reality".

and the fact that soft tissues have been preservered do not prove anything relating to a shorter age.  as a matter of fact, its understood that extraordinary circumstances preserved them.  and a lot fo the time the reason this stuff was not discovered earlier is cuz no one ever destroys fossil evidence in order to find this type of thing.  although that may become a thing of the past if these destructive techniques gain more popularity.
any way, its obvious you're not capable of debating the facts when all you do is dismiss them.  i've got better things to do like see Dr. Paul today.

[Femacamper]

johnsmith,

It's nice that you have your own opinion, but you need to back it up with evidence. Show us the living proof of dinosaurs with feathers. Fossils are reconstructed, and more often than not, are just manufactured from a hodge podge of different species. Show us real untampered fossil evidence. Your assertions prove nothing, except your strong faith in evolution.

Anyone who is observing the signs of the times can see plainly that the world is devolving. Pollution is destroying ecosystems. Overfarming and overindustrializing is creating huge deserts. The rainforest is dying, as are thousands of species with it.

This is a corrupted world. It started with mankind's sin against God, and now it has made a snowball effect.

You can blather on about extraordinary circumstances that try and explain away God and make the world an amoral cesspool of humanism, but that doesn't prove anything.

At any rate, I do respect your promotion of Dr. Paul. That is one thing we can agree on.

[Dogstar2012]

i could pick 1000 people,experts in boatwrighting and they could not build a 515 foot wooden boat that would not break in half.Its a ludicrous thing to have me believe.515 feet is the same length as a frigate.If you believe it good on you i find it all very interesting.

I suggest you read "The Twelfth Planet" by Zacharia Sitchin. He says the ark is described as "covered", and gives evidence to suggest it was built more to resemble (if not function as) a submarine. It's a very interesting read.