Would you submit? (Need legal advice)

[Neco]

I am not going to tell you where I am employed but it is a retail store.

The managers informed us that we will be searched every day after our shift is over to check for stolen merchandise.

Personally, this is what I believe.  This is NOT a big enough issue to quit my job or complain enough to get fired AND I believe this is precisely why they can get away with it.

Think about it.  If a major retail store announced that they would search every customer as they were leaving their store, they would be bankrupt in a month because no one would submit to that when they can simply shop somewhere else where they will keep their person liberty but an employee WILL submit because you will simply be put out on the street if you don't.  The employee has no leverage in the situation.

The biggest concern I had at this issue (besides the obvious invasion of liberty) is that they told us how we will be searched after telling us all day that we are a part of a TEAM.  

--------------------------------

So let's use some basic logic here.

A team or family trusts each other and relies on each other.  

A member of the family is more trustworthy than someone outside the team.

But the powers at be want to search members of their family but not people outside that family.

Why? Because they don't trust them. (A customer is obviously less trustworthy then someone you have known for a long time and you choose not to search that person)

So what can we conclude?

All of the team and family rhetoric is empty and false and to anyone who uses their brain, insulting.



Thoughts?

[Tsul777]

Just one; wow. I know that your job is your livlihood, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If they installed employee bodyscanners at your store, would you consent to walk through one every day? More incremental control sounds like to me.

[Neco]

Just one; wow. I know that your job is your livlihood, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If they installed employee bodyscanners at your store, would you consent to walk through one every day? More incremental control sounds like to me.

I agree and I wouldn't submit to that.  Basically they make you open up your purse or your coat and look inside. 

[Neco]

I agree and I wouldn't submit to that.  Basically they make you open up your purse or your coat and look inside. 

Oh and another thing. 

This isn't just at my store.  At every retail chain I have come across around the country, they search employees.

[donnay]

It sounds like you have already resigned yourself into thinking it is no big deal...well it is a BIG DEAL to me.

This is a fourth and fifth amendment issue...and I would decline the search on the grounds that it goes against the fourth and fifth amendment.  This is just more examples of corporate control--to see how many people will jump if they say jump!

You better speak up now while you can.

Just my $0.02

[Freeski]

The employee has no leverage in the situation.

Neco, that was at the end of paragraph four. And it's the soul of the bullshit. Think about it: if all the employees decided not to work there, the company couldn't exist.

[Neco]

It sounds like you have already resigned yourself into thinking it is no big deal...well it is a BIG DEAL to me.

This is a fourth and fifth amendment issue...and I would decline the search on the grounds that it goes against the fourth and fifth amendment.  This is just more examples of corporate control--to see how many people will jump if they say so.

You better speak up now while you can.

Just my $0.02

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you but at the same time, I have to protect my livelihood.  I will refuse a search but if they threaten to fire me, I will go along with it.

Maybe I should talk to a lawyer.  

It makes me sick to even hear myself saying that.

[Freeski]

It sounds like you have already resigned yourself into thinking it is no big deal...well it is a BIG DEAL to me.

This is a fourth and fifth amendment issue...and I would decline the search on the grounds that it goes against the fourth and fifth amendment.  This is just more examples of corporate control--to see how many people will jump if they say jump!

You better speak up now while you can.

Just my $0.02

Donnay for president!

You have to admit it would be cool.

[trailhound]

[Neco]

The employee has no leverage in the situation.

Neco, that was at the end of paragraph four. And it's the soul of the bullshit. Think about it: if all the employees decided not to work there, the company couldn't exist.

This is true but by the employee I am more referring to myself.  They will always find someone (especially in these times we are living in) to submit themselves to a search in order to work there.

If I refuse and they fire me, the only person it will hurt is me.  The only way it will hurt the company is if every employee refuses a search which COULD happen but in all likelihood won't.

[Tsul777]

This is true but by the employee I am more referring to myself.  They will always find someone (especially in these times we are living in) to submit themselves to a search in order to work there.

If I refuse and they fire me, the only person it will hurt is me.  The only way it will hurt the company is if every employee refuses a search which COULD happen but in all likelihood won't.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. It's the same with the enforcement of the bodyscanners at airports; if everyone said no and refused to fly because of them, they would be obliged to get rid of them. We all know that's not going to happen.

(My magic post # by the way; now I go poof!!)

[donnay]

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you but at the same time, I have to protect my livelyhood.  I will refuse a search but if they threaten to fire me, I will go along with it.

Maybe I should talk to a lawyer.  

It makes me sick to even hear myself saying that.

We have some lawyers in the forum.  Maybe one of them will chime in with their legal opinion.

Each one of us has to draw a line in the sand--Me, personally, I would tell them to pound salt and stand up on principle.  I would also be putting applications in other places just so I can have a back-up to fall on should they terminate me for telling them to pound salt.  If you lead others will follow...

[Freeski]

Yeah Neco the point is it comes down to each of us. Lead! Don't sell a part of your soul for "comfort" in the New World Order. Lead brother, like I promise to do! Inspire your friends... it's all you can do!

[Neco]

Well, I brought the subject up at lunch today.  Not only did every one of the coworkers I ate with support the searching but they also support the company making its employees ASK to be searched.

Today I consented to a search.  I feel sick.

I need some legal advice about this.

Does the 4th Amendment apply to private companies?

[donnay]

Well, I brought the subject up at lunch today.  Not only did every one of the coworkers I ate with support the searching but they also support the company making its employees ASK to be searched.

Today I consented to a search.  I feel sick.

I need some legal advice about this.

Does the 4th Amendment apply to private companies?

I am not lawyer but I play one on TV--just kidding, I couldn't resist!  However, in all seriousness, I do know my Constitutional rights and I do not need a lawyer to tell me when they are being violated.


'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

[phosphene]

ya gotta make it uncomfortable for the jerks that are actually doing the searching. Or make them look so silly, that they have to stop. Like, bring in 5 really huge bags to work, then they have to search them all on your way out. Or bring a locked box, and forget the key at home, and watch their robot brains start to smoke.

[TheCaliKid]

4th Amendment.

[Neco]

ya gotta make it uncomfortable for the jerks that are actually doing the searching. Or make them look so silly, that they have to stop. Like, bring in 5 really huge bags to work, then they have to search them all on your way out. Or bring a locked box, and forget the key at home, and watch their robot brains start to smoke.

LOL, I like this idea.

[independentWV]

I am not a lawyer either but studied business law. If you signed an employee agreement, handbook or contract indicating you agree to policies that is considered implied consent as long as search is on company property. Legally they have no standing to search you if you are not on their property.

Might want to verify by your state law. 

[Neco]

I am not a lawyer either but studied business law. If you signed an employee agreement, handbook or contract indicating you agree to policies that is considered implied consent as long as search is on company property. Legally they have no standing to search you if you are not on their property.

Might want to verify by your state law. 

I will have to sign that paper by Sunday and I have not yet.

[donnay]

I will have to sign that paper by Sunday and I have not yet.

Well it appears they are definitely in violation since you haven't wavered your rights--yet.   

[Mister-Ed]

I hate to say it, but I don't think you're going to find a fair employer in this era--at least not without sacrificing your principles. The City Paper in my locale reported the top 10 local employers last month; 3 were major defense contractors, 5 were investment houses with direct ties to the defense industry. Work for the NWO you get good pay and treated w/respect; work anywhere else (almost) and you get indignities, low glass ceilings, pay cuts or just a fixed miserably low salary/wage. As for myself, I hope my next job can be one of bitter political cartoonist (and yes, I can draw).

Not supposed to be this way? That's called the profit motive, with executives hired specifically to keep laborers in their place, rather than gradually promote any to executives. And although I do know of one major American corportion which hires its executives exclusively from the ranks of its employees, I'm not sure you would enjoy working there. It's called "McDonalds".

[Neco]

Well, I came up with a plan last night after reviewing my employee handbook.

A few points:

A) I only have to sign saying that I have received the employee handbook.

B) At the end, it says that the "rules" can be changed at will and at any time by management.  In my estimation, this also includes the searching (I walked out without being searched today by the way).

So technically, the manager could change the policy on the searching.  (The only corporate policy I have a problem with there)

C) The company has an "open door policy" meaning I can talk to or complain to a manager in my company about an issue I broach with them without facing penalty or harassment.

My plan is to write up a formal grievance to my manager listing all the major common sense reasons WHY searching your employee's lunch boxes and coats is a bad idea and over time, I hope to gain the trust of at least 10 fellow employees who will sign it with me. 

My manager is a reasonable man and I believe he would listen and respect my opinion BUT I think that if I brought up these issues that made sense and a large part of his workforce was in agreement about it, I honestly think he could change the policy for our store at least.

This plan will take time so in the mean time I will bite my tongue and go along with their illegal policy but I have a plan for action that doesn't risk my job and I think has a real chance of working. 

I will get busy writing up that grievance and then I will post it up here so you all can see it.

[donnay]

Good Luck, Neco.

[Damascus]

Threatening someone to consent to a search or be fired IS NOT voluntary. Its is violating your forth amendment right, under duress, with the threat of force. If you should happen to get fired you should sue. Make sure that you due so, after you have had another job for a year so you can get a years worth of back pay. Its about time that we started hearing some real constitutional cases in our supposed court system.

[independentWV]

Good Luck, Neco.

I second that!

[jofortruth]

If I could find a job elsewhere I would, and then tell them why you left! Someone has to stand up on this issue.

Just curious, in the meeting where they told you this, did anyone stand up and say they disagreed and why? Say something like "but you just told us we are a family, is this the way you treat family?" or something like that. They are definitely giving you a double message! Someone needs to call them on it. If you do this, I would do it privately just you and one of the managers. Just state your opinion nicely.

imo

[planet5]

the name of terror




In the shadows of darkness and terror there lay a scenario far more stark and complex,far more horrific than could come from the annals of history.
all the hiroshimas and methods of torture and captivity would be put to shame with this one complex plan of the illuminati and corperate new world order.
consider wakeing up one morning to the not so usual news(this time staggered programming and panicked newscasters are on screen)
limited staffing in this and in all sectors of the marketplace would tell a story of a world gone mad at the hands of technology.
people would not make it in to work because they were reeling from the effects of a new "HOLOCAUST".....where something was dropped from the air ala-hg wells "things to come"!

this would not however,be "the gasses of peace " as was so described in his film,but would unleash a "holocaust of hate" on the minds and bodies of men that would literaly disintegrate any shreds of sanity and humanity they had left,and trigger a martial law situation well planned for the takeover of this hemishphere and the liberty of the USA.

men would not neccessarily shred each other like attrocious predators in the new film "28 DAYS",but would,after awakening one morning,find themselves acting like meth addicts in search of a fix and thinking of nothing other than takeing and pillageing the goods of others. the freeways would be awash in car crashes and assaults from people on their way to work(or somewhere)
there would be no more order,so what was left of the national guards and police services would also try to quell this mess,haveing to be brought in from more isolated places away from the major coastal cities.
In the case of the new movie..only britain was first affected by this so-called virus,but in this likely new scenario the chemicals would be seeded from large aircraft on most major coastal cities first here in the usa and then on any allies in europe. only from the air could such a massive project be pulled off and no chain of command or trail followed to its diabolical ends. there are too many controls and limiting factors for the plot to take shape in food poisonings or in our water supplies. these were indeed the times of troubles and the unleashing of the biblical "VIALS" OF PLAGUE!
THIS WOULD DIRECTLY CRIPPLE OUR ECONOMIES FOR ONE SIMPLE REASON:
If you do not have people who are capable of working then you have no infrastructure in about a week,and chaos and our own brand of terror on each other would be the new order and chaos.

In a world shrinking in both culture and the concepts of morality and love,there would be even less then.

the corperate and military elite,haveing long ago built massive bunkers and underground cities for protections from a so-called "global warming" and or protection from asteroid hits,would now face his most critical hour,from his very own.

the technology which men envisioned to make his life less complex and more fulfilling,would now be turned against him by the military-corperate industrial complex of an inner shadow circle of governments which have always operated at least twenty years ahead of any such cultural improvements to their kind.

so after about six months of zombie like and chaotic behaviors,and men being commited to underground encampments and above the ground mental assylems established by the military(the christian populations being the first to be labled and gone)our world saw an immediate change more profound than any sudden weather change like an asteroid impact or melting icecaps.

look up,for your redemption draweth nigh,and your futures are hidden
"in the name of terror"


charles buchanan 111
auburn,wa

may-17th  2007
--

[stella]

ya gotta make it uncomfortable for the jerks that are actually doing the searching. Or make them look so silly, that they have to stop. Like, bring in 5 really huge bags to work, then they have to search them all on your way out. Or bring a locked box, and forget the key at home, and watch their robot brains start to smoke.

We need more of this type of thinking in society today.  We can't really fight the system with the system, so just expose the ludicrousness of it, make it hard for them, and make others laugh.

[Shorebreak]

Here's the problem: I have an inlaw who worked for a large box store while he was in college - not too long ago. He has just about every expensive electronic gadget that the store carried. When I asked my direct relative how they managed to get so many cool (aka "expensive") things, while raising kids on a shoe-string budget as they attended school, the answer was "I just don't ask where they came from".

In reality, the guy was lifting them from his employer at every possible opportunity - thousands of dollars worth of high-tech gear. And he was a supervisor. Knowing that information, if I were the manager of a similar store I would assemble my employees and expalin that I'm sorry, but the risk to the organization - and to everyone's future jobs considering that the company could go bankrupt otherwise - is too great. We need to start random checks as employees leave. I'd have everyone sign the release form and I'd tell those folks who didn't want to be searched that they would get a good reference from me in their upcoming job search.

I know that it sounds harsh but in reality, when someone is paying you to perform a job, that person has a right to protect their business interests. If theft by employees is putting them out of business they should have a right to hitre employees who agree to conform to their company guidelines.

If it was the government imposing the requirement on citizens I would feel completely different and would be 100% against it. But this is a private matter between an employer and an employee. My guess is that a lawyer will tell you to update your resume, or sign the form.

If it were me, I'd do both and as soon as I found another job I'd walk away from the search routine.

[EvadingGrid]

* Morse Fan  thinks invisible ink marker pen

[HEBGB]

Here's the problem: I have an inlaw who worked for a large box store while he was in college - not too long ago. He has just about every expensive electronic gadget that the store carried. When I asked my direct relative how they managed to get so many cool (aka "expensive") things, while raising kids on a shoe-string budget as they attended school, the answer was "I just don't ask where they came from".

In reality, the guy was lifting them from his employer at every possible opportunity - thousands of dollars worth of high-tech gear. And he was a supervisor. Knowing that information, if I were the manager of a similar store I would assemble my employees and expalin that I'm sorry, but the risk to the organization - and to everyone's future jobs considering that the company could go bankrupt otherwise - is too great. We need to start random checks as employees leave. I'd have everyone sign the release form and I'd tell those folks who didn't want to be searched that they would get a good reference from me in their upcoming job search.

I know that it sounds harsh but in reality, when someone is paying you to perform a job, that person has a right to protect their business interests. If theft by employees is putting them out of business they should have a right to hitre employees who agree to conform to their company guidelines.

If it was the government imposing the requirement on citizens I would feel completely different and would be 100% against it. But this is a private matter between an employer and an employee. My guess is that a lawyer will tell you to update your resume, or sign the form.

If it were me, I'd do both and as soon as I found another job I'd walk away from the search routine.

You and your thinking is the problem. If you run a business you accept the risk and develop plans to stop things like this from happening TO YOU not by infringing on the rights of an employee.

I won a case against a contract agency because YOU CANNOT NULLIFY A PERSONS CIVIL/ CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BY CONTRACT. PERIOD. That very statement is why I won.

I walked off of a 27 dollar an hour job for shit just like this guy is going through and I would do it again. Grab your sack and rock out with your cock out is what I say!

[phosphene]

I won a case against a contract agency because YOU CANNOT NULLIFY A PERSONS CIVIL/ CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BY CONTRACT. PERIOD. That very statement is why I won.

good to see ya won the case. but we have the freedom to unlimited contracts. including contracting away our god given rights that are protected by the constitution.

ie: You contract away your freedom of speech with a non-disclosure agreement. a non-disclosure agreement is both lawful and legal.

[GhostofTsenzei]

good to see ya won the case. but we have the freedom to unlimited contracts. including contracting away our god given rights that are protected by the constitution.

ie: You contract away your freedom of speech with a non-disclosure agreement. a non-disclosure agreement is both lawful and legal.

Not to mention military contracts.

[citizenx]

This is not legal advice, but why don't you tell your boss, "Yes, you can feel me up, as long as you blow me."

Get a backbone installed, or at least get a job at another "retailer."

I once gave my own uncle the finger through his recently installed security camera.  Needless to say that was shortly before leaving his employ (my decision).

Another person in our office had recently stolen some money.

In hindsight, it was his business, but it was my dignity.  Flipping the bird was wrong, but quitting was right.
Think about it.

[adissenter2]

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them, and these will continue till they have been resisted with either words or blows, or with both.. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress."   -- Frederick Douglass

[Damascus]

There is no such thing as contracting away your rights, as the STATE DID NOT GRANT THEM TO YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! How much brain washing have people been through? Didn't your creator give you those rights? You can only give them up through your acquiescence! I wish people would grow a pair! The last defense of our rights is through bloodshed, and only if they push us right up against the wall, with no other recourse. These new faux libertarians really peeve me off with their unlimited right to contract. Here sing this contract for you to be shot in the head, it's a contract right?

[Neco]

If I could find a job elsewhere I would, and then tell them why you left! Someone has to stand up on this issue.

Just curious, in the meeting where they told you this, did anyone stand up and say they disagreed and why? Say something like "but you just told us we are a family, is this the way you treat family?" or something like that. They are definitely giving you a double message! Someone needs to call them on it. If you do this, I would do it privately just you and one of the managers. Just state your opinion nicely.

imo

Yes it is doublethink but every employee I have talked to has bought into it.

They will walk around until they find a manager to search them. 

They WANT to be searched.

All of this will change soon if I find a few patriots to stand with me.

[Neco]

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them, and these will continue till they have been resisted with either words or blows, or with both.. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress."   -- Frederick Douglass

Fantastic quote.

[carlee]

they are f-----king with your being state of mind telling you are part of the team then they are going to search you. this is classic standard operating procedure .  It is a control of the mind nothing to do with stealing have they upped the flouride in the water they just might be doing a test run to see if the workers are getting enough dose. If someone wants to rip off the company they will strip searches or not.  Dont let it get to you cause that is what they want.