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« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2010, 09:13:19 PM »

Very practical Advice.

After above,
I plan on living
each day as it comes,
just like now.

We are drifting back into WHEN...again...
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2010, 06:00:20 AM »

so who were the two witnesses from Revelations?  when did every fish in the sea die from Rev 16:4?  when did the rivers turn to blood?  When did the Euphrates river dry up and a 200 million man army march across it?  When did the islands of the world sink and the mountains collapse?  I can go on....

Sorry Lucy, you've got some 'splainin to do.



Everyone, please ignore this person's ramblings.  It's confusion incarnate.
read Josephus. its all there. secondly the Bible interprets the Bible. Most of the imagery that John used in Revelation are mentioned in the Old Testament.
That being said, Vespasian called one of his legions from the river Euphrates. In the Old Testament, the prophets all warned Israel that judgment would come from the north. When the Babylonians and the Assyrians came to conquer Israel they would proceed in from Lebanon in the North and go downward. This is what St. John is conjuring up. the rivers turning to blood refers to several slaughters that occurred of the Jewish people on the gallillee lake, the river Jordan and the Mediterranean sea. the slaughter was so great that the river Jordan, the sea of gallillee etc were literally turned to blood.

Again, all the images that John used in the book of revelation are symbolisms found in the old testament. Find out the context whereby these symbolisms were used in the old testament and that will be the key to unlocking the book of revelation.
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 06:26:26 AM »

read Josephus. its all there. secondly the Bible interprets the Bible. Most of the imagery that John used in Revelation are mentioned in the Old Testament.
That being said, Vespasian called one of his legions from the river Euphrates. In the Old Testament, the prophets all warned Israel that judgment would come from the north. When the Babylonians and the Assyrians came to conquer Israel they would proceed in from Lebanon in the North and go downward. This is what St. John is conjuring up. the rivers turning to blood refers to several slaughters that occurred of the Jewish people on the gallillee lake, the river Jordan and the Mediterranean sea. the slaughter was so great that the river Jordan, the sea of gallillee etc were literally turned to blood.

Again, all the images that John used in the book of revelation are symbolisms found in the old testament. Find out the context whereby these symbolisms were used in the old testament and that will be the key to unlocking the book of revelation.

So whos the 2 end times prophets that were killed and rose 3 days later and the WHOLE world watched and partied at their murder?
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2010, 07:39:29 AM »

concerning the 2 witnesses, please refer to the following analysis.
http://preteristpost.blogspot.com/2008/09/two-witnesses-of-revelation.html
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2010, 07:45:28 AM »

concerning the 2 witnesses, please refer to the following analysis.
http://preteristpost.blogspot.com/2008/09/two-witnesses-of-revelation.html


 Roll Eyes   Cheesy what a joke.

Theres NOTHING symbolic about them. They stop it from RAINING, raining, they do this. They are supernaturally protected!! ANY on that tries to hurt them are killed by FIRE out of their mouths. sorry but NOTHING comes even remotley close to this in 70 AD. NOTHING. The beast will publically execute them himself and the WHOLE WORLD will watch, satelite TV and all, and the WHole world will celebrate like its Marti Gras and Christmas all rolled into one.

Then God brings them back to life for the WHOLE WORLD to see.

Nothing comes close to this in 70 ad. NOTHING.
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2010, 07:58:08 AM »

When did the AoD happen in 70 ad?
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2010, 09:47:37 AM »

Dok, the book of revelation is a highly symbolic book which finds its symbolism in the context of the Old Testament. The Bible interprets the Bible.
Here is Matthew Henry's commentary on Matthew 24
Chapter 24
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/matthew/24.html
Christ’s preaching was mostly practical; but, in this chapter, we have a prophetical discourse, a prediction of things to come; such however as had a practical tendency, and was intended, not to gratify the curiosity of his disciples, but to guide their consciences and conversations, and it is therefore concluded with a practical application. The church has always had particular prophecies, besides general promises, both for direction and for encouragement to believers; but it is observable, Christ preached this prophetical sermon in the close of his ministry, as the Apocalypse is the last book of the New Testament, and the prophetical books of the Old Testament are placed last, to intimate to us, that we must be well grounded in plain truths and duties, and those must first be well digested, before we dive into those things that are dark and difficult; many run themselves into confusion by beginning their Bible at the wrong end. Now, in this chapter, we have, I. The occasion of this discourse (v. 1-3). II. The discourse itself, in which we have, 1. The prophecy of divers events, especially referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the utter ruin of the Jewish church and nation, which were not hastening on, and were completed about forty years after; the prefaces to that destruction, the concomitants and consequences of it; yet looking further, to Christ’s coming at the end of time, and the consummation of all things, of which that was a type and figure (v. 4–31). 2. The practical application of this prophecy for the awakening and quickening of his disciples to prepare for these great and awful things (v. 32–51).

Verses 1-3 Here is,I. Christ’s quitting the temple, and his public work there. He had said, in the close of the foregoing chapter, Your house is left unto you desolate; and here he made his words good; He went out, and departed from the temple. The manner of expression is observable; he not only went out of the temple, but departed from it, took his final farewell of it; he departed from it, never to return to it any more; and then immediately follows a prediction of its ruin. Note, That house is left desolate indeed, which Christ leaves. Woe unto them when I depart, Hos. 9:12; Jer. 6:8. It was now time to groan out their Ichabod, The glory is departed, their defence is departed. Three days after this, the veil of the temple was rent; when Christ left it, all became common and unclean; but Christ departed not till they drove him away; did not reject them, till they first rejected him.II. His private discourse with his disciples; he left the temple, but he did not leave the twelve, who were the seed of the gospel church, which the casting off of the Jews was the enriching of. When he left the temple, his disciples left it too, and came to him. Note, It is good being where Christ is, and leaving that which he leaves. They came to him, to be instructed in private, when his public preaching was over; for the secret of the Lord is with them that fear him. He had spoken of the destruction of the Jewish church to the multitude in parables, which here, as usual, he explains to his disciples. Observe,1. His disciples came to him, to show him the buildings of the temple, It was a stately and beautiful structure, one of the wonders of the world; no cost was spared, no art left untried, to make it sumptuous. Though it came short of Solomon’s temple, and its beginning was small, yet its latter end did greatly increase. It was richly furnished with gifts and offerings, to which there were continual additions made. They showed Christ these things, and desired him to take notice of them, either,(1.) As being greatly pleased with them themselves, and expecting he should be so too. They had lived mostly in Galilee, at a distance from the temple, had seldom seen it, and therefore were the more struck with admiration at it, and thought he should admire as much as they did all this glory (Gen. 31:1); and they would have him divert himself (after his preaching, and from his sorrow which they saw him perhaps almost overwhelmed with) with looking about him. Note, Even good men are apt to be too much enamoured with outward pomp and gaiety, and to overvalue it, even in the things of God; whereas we should be, as Christ was, dead to it, and look upon it with contempt. The temple was indeed glorious, but, [1.] Its glory was sullied and stained with the sin of the priests and people; that wicked doctrine of the Pharisees, which preferred the gold before the temple that sanctified it, was enough to deface the beauty of all the ornaments of the temple. [2.] Its glory was eclipsed and outdone by the presence of Christ in it, who was the glory of this latter house (Hag. 2:9), so that the buildings had no glory, in comparison with that glory which excelled.Or, (2.) As grieving that this house should be left desolate; they showed him the buildings, as if they would move him to reverse the sentence; "Lord, let not this holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, be made a desolation.’’ They forgot how many providences, concerning Solomon’s temple, had manifested how little God cared for that outward glory which they had so much admired, when the people were wicked, 2 Chr. 7:21. This house, which is high, sin will bring low. Christ had lately looked upon the precious souls, and wept for them, Lu. 19:41. The disciples look upon the pompous buildings, and are ready to weep for them. In this, as in other things, his thoughts are not like ours. It was weakness, and meanness of spirit, in the disciples, to be so fond of fine buildings; it was a childish thing. Animo magno nihil magnum—To a great mind nothing is great. Seneca.2. Christ, hereupon, foretels the utter ruin and destruction that were coming upon this place, v. 2. Note, A believing foresight of the defacing of all worldly glory will help to take us off from admiring it, and overvaluing it. The most beautiful body will be shortly worms’ meat, and the most beautiful building a ruinous heap. And shall we then set our eyes upon that which so soon is not, and look upon that with so much admiration which ere long we shall certainly look upon with so much contempt? See ye not all these things? They would have Christ look upon them, and be as much in love with them as they were; he would have them look upon them, and be as dead to them as he was. There is such a sight of these things as will do us good; so to see them as to see through them and see to the end of them.Christ, instead of reversing the decree, ratifies it; Verily, I say unto you, there shall not be left one stone upon another. (1.) He speaks of it as a certain ruin; "I say unto you. I, that know what I say, and know how to make good what I say; take my word for it, it shall be so; I, the Amen, the true Witness, say it to you.’’ All judgment being committed to the Son, the threatenings, as well as the promises, are all yea, and amen, in him. Heb. 6:17, 18.(2.) He speaks of it as an utter ruin. The temple shall not only be stripped, and plundered, and defaced, but utterly demolished and laid waste; Not one stone shall be left upon another. Notice is taken, in the building of the second temple, of the laying of one stone upon another (Hag. 2:15); and here, in the ruin, of not leaving one stone upon another. History tells us, that this was fulfilled in the latter; for though Titus, when he took the city, did all he could to preserve the temple, yet he could not restrain the enraged soldiers from destroying it utterly; and it was done to that degree, that Turnus Rufus ploughed up the ground on which it had stood: thus that scripture was fulfilled (Mic. 3:12), Zion shall, for your sake, be ploughed as a field. And afterward, in Julian the Apostate’s time, when the Jews were encouraged by him to rebuild their temple, in opposition to the Christian religion, what remained of the ruins was quite pulled down, to level the ground for a new foundation; but the attempt was defeated by the miraculous eruption of fire out of the ground, which destroyed the foundation they laid, and frightened away the builders. Now this prediction of the final and irreparable ruin of the temple includes a prediction of the period of the Levitical priesthood and the ceremonial law.3. The disciples, not disputing either the truth or the equity of this sentence, nor doubting of the accomplishment of it, enquire more particularly of the time when it should come to pass, and the signs of its approach, v. 3. Observe,(1.) Where they made this enquiry; privately, as he sat upon the mount of Olives; probably, he was returning to Bethany, and there sat down by the way, to rest him; the mount of Olives directly faced the temple, and from thence he might have a full prospect of it at some distance; there he sat as a Judge upon the bench, the temple and city being before him as at the bar, and thus he passed sentence on them. We read (Eze. 11:23) of the removing of the glory of the Lord from the temple to the mountain; so Christ, the great Shechinah, here removes to this mountain.(2.) What the enquiry itself was; When shall these things be; and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Here are three questions.[1.] Some think, these questions do all point at one and the same thing—the destruction of the temple, and the period of the Jewish church and nation, which Christ had himself spoken of as his coming (ch. 16:28), and which would be the consummation of the age (for so it may be read), the finishing of that dispensation. Or, they thought the destruction of the temple must needs be the end of the world. If that house be laid waste, the world cannot stand; for the Rabbin used to say that the house of the sanctuary was one of the seven things for the sake of which the world was made; and they think, if so, the world will not survive the temple.[2.] Others think their question, When shall these things be? refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the other two to the end of the world; or Christ’s coming may refer to his setting up his gospel kingdom, and the end of the world to the day of judgment. I rather incline to think that their question looked no further than the event Christ now foretold; but it appears by other passages, that they had very confused thoughts of future events; so that perhaps it is not possible to put any certain construction upon this question of theirs.But Christ, in his answer, though he does not expressly rectify the mistakes of his disciples (that must be done by the pouring out of the Spirit), yet looks further than their question, and instructs his church, not only concerning the great events of that age, the destruction of Jerusalem, but concerning his second coming at the end of time, which here he insensibly slides into a discourse of, and of that it is plain he speaks in the next chapter, which is a continuation of this sermon.

continued here
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/matthew/24.html
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2010, 11:09:25 AM »

You ah, didnt answer my question.

Quote
When did the AoD happen in 70 ad?

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« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2010, 11:41:24 AM »

You ah, didnt answer my question.


ps. I do not agree with all that James Jordan writes but on this point he is solid.
The Abomination of Desolation
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1988_jordan_abomination.html
Part 1: An Overview
Part 2: The Man of Sin
Part 3: An Overview of the Pattern
By James B. Jordan
The Debate Over Christian Reconstruction [Tyler, TX: Dominion Press, 1988]

Here begins a series of studies in the Abomination of Desolation, or Desolating Sacrilege. This month and next I shall set out an overview of what I regard as the best interpretation of the phenomenon. Later essays will look at it in more detail.

(The original form of this introductory essay was published as an appendix in Gary DeMar, The Debate Over Christian Reconstruction [Tyler, TX: Dominion Press, 1988]. It is slightly revised here. It builds on research available in my Studies in Food and Faith, No. 11: "The Meaning of the Mosaic Dietary Laws," available from Biblical Horizons.)

As a result of my studies in Leviticus, I have come to the conclusion that the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 is none other than apostate Judaism, and that the Man of Sin spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the apostate High Priest of Israel. In this essay I wish simply to set out the gist of my interpretation.

I am taking for granted the fundamental preterist position as set forth by Jay Adams in The Time Is at Hand and by David Chilton in Paradise Restored and Days of Vengeance. On Matthew 24, my taped lectures, available from Biblical Horizons, can be consulted for details. With this in mind, let us turn to Daniel 9:26-27.

 

26. Then after the 62 weeks, the Messiah [Jesus] will be cut off [excommunicated by the religious rulers of Israel] and have nothing [the cross, Phil. 2:7]; and the people of the Prince [the enthroned Christ] Who is to come will destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the sanctuary [Temple]. And its end will come with a flood [like Noah, like the threats of Deut. 28; like the locust flood of Joel]; even to the end there will be war [the Jewish War of 66-70 AD]; desolations are determined.

27a. And He [Messiah the Prince] will confirm a covenant [by fulfilling the Old Covenant as the New Covenant] with the many [the Church] during one week [the 70th week]. But in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering [by dying on the cross, and thereby ending the sacrificial system].

 

Now we come to the statement that "on the wing of detestable things, or abominations, comes one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate" (v. 27b). In the past, I have taken the wing as a reference to the eagle, and thus jointly to Edom and Rome, both of whom are symbolized by the eagle in the Old Testament. The Romans and Idumeans together managed to destroy the Temple. The Idumeans (Edomites) invaded the Temple and filled it with human blood. The Romans sacked it. I understood the last phrases of the verse to be saying that in time the Romans would also be destroyed.

There is a problem with this view. Those who ignore the Idumean invasion of the Temple cannot deal with Jesus' statement in Matthew 24 that the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place. Luke's parallel statement that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies (actually a reference to the Idumean-Zealot conspiracy that let the Edomites into the Temple) is not equivalent: surrounding Jerusalem is not the same as standing in the Temple. Only the Idumeans stood in the Temple.

But is this enough? The other passages in Daniel to which Jesus alludes indicate that counterfeit worship was set up in the Temple, and that this was the abomination of desolation. Prophesying of Antiochus Epiphanes, Gabriel (?) tells Daniel that "forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice, and they will set up the abomination of desolation" (Dan. 9:31; 1 Maccabees 1:41-61). At the end of Daniel, the preincarnate Christ (?) tells him that "from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1290 days." In my opinion this has to do with the same event, the 1290 days being thrice 430, but days instead of years (Ex. 12:40), while the 1335 days of the next verse go back to the 45 years between the Exodus and the Conquest of the land (Dt. 2:14; Josh. 14:6-10). The oppression of Antiochus will be worse than that of Egypt, but much shorter. Blessed is he who endures to the end and sees the land reconquered. All this is a type of the New Covenant, of course.

With this in mind, though, it certainly seems that the mere presence of wicked Edomites and Zealots in the Temple is not enough. We need to have a cessation of true sacrifices and an implementation of counterfeit ones. And of course, that is exactly what happened in the New Covenant. With the death of Christ, the sacrificial system came to an end. Any blood sacrifices offered after the cross were potential abominations.

Returning to the time of the Maccabees and Daniel 11, we need to ask who were the "forces from him" that desecrated the sanctuary and set up the desolating sacrilege? They were the reigning High Priests Jason and Menelaus, who apostatized to Greek religion, and who invited Antiochus to help them take over Jerusalem for their own purposes (Josephus, Antiquities 12:5:1). In the same way, the apostate High Priests between A.D. 30 and 70 cooperated with the Romans in order to suppress the Christian faith and in order to maintain their own Sadducean combination of Greek philosophy and apostate Judaism.

The whole of Old Testament theology points us to this. The "wing of abominations" goes back to Numbers 15:37-41, where every Israelite was commanded to wear a blue tassel, called a wing, on his garments. ("Corner" is literally "wing.") This was the "wing of holiness," to remind Israel to obey the law (v. 40). Every Israelite was a member of a heavenly people, and "flew" about the throne of God on these blue (heavenly) "wings." Naturally, an apostate Israelite would no longer have "wings of holiness" but "wings of abominations." Their leader, the High Priest, would be the preeminent example of this.

(A full study of the "wing" motif would be a large undertaking. Let me call your attention, however, to the wings of the cherubim, on which God sat enthroned. The wings on the garments of the Israelites meant that they, too, were cherubim, and were to guard God's holiness. The High Priest, described in Ezekiel 28:11-19 as the true spiritual King of Tyre, is called a cherub. Counterfeit cherubic wings carrying a counterfeit Ark to a counterfeit Temple are pictured in Zechariah 5:5-11, and this is relevant background to the destruction of Jerusalem, because these also are wings of abomination. Notice also that apostate Jerusalem in Revelation 18:2 is said to be a "dwelling place of demons and a haunt of every unclean spirit, and a haunt of every unclean and detestable bird.")

The idea of abomination is thoroughly Levitical. Unclean food was called abominable, or literally detestable, because you were to spit it out. If they ate detestable food, they would become detestable, and God would spit them out. This is clearly set out in Leviticus 11:43, 18:28, and 20:23, and see also Revelation 3:16. This was all symbolic of sin, of course. It meant that God would spit out the people if they corrupted themselves with idolatry, since the unclean animals were associated with idols and with the idolatrous nations. (Compare Paul's "table of demons.")

False worship is idolatrous worship. When the Jews rejected Jesus and kept offering sacrifices, they were engaged in idolatry. This was the "wing of abominations" that took place in the Temple. It is why the Temple was ultimately destroyed. The particular desecration that took place was the massacre of converted Jews that took place just before A.D. 70, as prophesied in the book of Revelation. It was the blood of those saints (Rev. 14) that Jerusalem was made to drink (Rev. 17) to her own destruction.

A full picture of this is provided in Ezekiel 8-11. I shall not expound the passage at this point, but simply direct you to it. There you will see that when the apostate Jews of Ezekiel's day performed the sacrifices, God viewed them as an abomination. He called the holy shrine an "idol of jealousy, that provokes to jealousy" (8:3). The Jews had treated the Temple and the Ark as idols, and so God would destroy them, as He had the golden calf. Ezekiel sees God pack up and move out of the Temple, leaving it empty or "desolate." The abominations have caused the Temple to become desolate. Once God had left, the armies of Nebuchadnezzar swept in and destroyed the empty Temple. (When we remember that Ezekiel and Daniel prophesied at the time, the correlation becomes even more credible.)

This is what happened in Matthew 24. Jesus had twice inspected the Temple for signs of leprosy (Lev. 14:33-47; the two so-called cleansings of the Temple in John 2 and Matthew 21). Jesus had found that the Temple was indeed leprous, and as the True Priest He condemned it to be torn down, in accordance with the Levitical law. "And Jesus came out from the Temple [leaving it desolate; God departing] and was going away [compare Ezekiel], when His disciples came up to point out the Temple buildings to Him. And He answered and said to them, `Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another which will not be torn down'" (Matt. 24:1-2).

(Note that the counterfeit Ark is removed from Israel right after a description of house-leprosy in Zechariah 5:4. The message in Zechariah was that when God's Temple was rebuilt, wickedness would be removed. This is a type of the New Covenant: When the Church was established, God sent leprosy into the Temple, and it became a seat of wickedness.)

With this background we can interpret Daniel 9:27b much more clearly: And on the wing of abominations [apostate Jewish clothing of the High Priest] will come one who makes desolate [the apostate High Priest], even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate [at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70].
 


Thus, verse 27 is simply an expansion of verse 26. Verse 26 says that the Messiah will be sacrificed; verse 27 explains that this ends the sacrificial system. Verse 26 says that the invasions will desolate the Temple and that it is determined. Verse 27 says that wrath will be poured out on the apostate Jews and their High Priest, whose actions desolated the Temple, and that this is decreed.

This correlates magnificently with 2 Thessalonians 2, as we shall see in the next installment in this series.

Now, just because these events were fulfilled in A.D. 70 does not mean that they are irrelevant to us. Churches can also apostatize, and Christ warned the Seven Churches that they too could be destroyed if Christ departed from them. They would be "desolate" and their worship would be "abominable" (Rev. 2-3). The destruction of the Temple and of its Jerusalem-culture, as portrayed in the remainder of Revelation, was thus a warning to the Seven Churches: If you do the same thing, God will do this to you. Thus, the principles are still in force, and serve to warn us today: If our churches depart from Christ, He will destroy both them and our society, which grew up around them.

 

Part 2: The Man of Sin

Last month we surveyed what is meant by the abomination of desolation. We suggested that it refers to sacrilegious acts performed by the religious leaders of Israel, captained by their High Priest, right in front of God's face in the Temple. Later studies in this series will provide evidence for this interpretation, and will survey the numerous times the abomination of desolation occurred in the Old Testament, before returning to a detailed study of the events prophesied in the New Testament. This time we complete our introduction by surveying 2 Thessalonians 2. We shall see that the Man of Sin in that passage is most likely the High Priest of Israel.

2:1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him. This could refer to the final coming of Jesus at the end of the world, or to His soon coming to render judgment on Jerusalem. There was a "gathering" that took place right after the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. 24:29-31), and so this verse could be referring to that event. In that case, the verses that follow predict something that will happen right before this gathering. On the other hand, this verse may refer to the Last Advent, as the preceding context in chapter 1 seems to indicate. Whichever is the case, the verses that follow deal with something that is in the near future in Paul's day, something that must take place before the AD 70 advent, and thus also before the Final Advent.

2. That you may not be quickly shaken from your mind or be disturbed either by a spirit or a word or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is upon us. Every Lord's Day is a day of the Lord, but that clearly is not what Paul has in mind. In the Old Testament, God's times of national judgment were called days of the Lord, and so the A.D. 70 Advent was a day of the Lord. Of course, the Final Advent is also a day of the Lord, the climactic one. The Thessalonians were looking for a near day of the Lord, an idea they must have gotten from Paul's teaching. Accordingly, this verse almost certainly is referring to the A.D. 70 Advent, which Paul tells them is near but not as near as certain false teachers have led them to believe. In my opinion, this understanding of verse 2 settles the question of which Advent verse 1 refers to.

3. Let no man in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy [of many believers, Matt. 24:10] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. The next verse makes it clear that this is the apostate High Priest, prince of the Temple, no longer a man of God's law but a man of lawlessness, no longer a son of Abraham but a son of destruction.

4. Who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God and every object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the Temple of God, displaying himself as being God. The High Priest had opposed Christ and God, and thus had opposed the true meaning of all the worship objects in the Temple. "The scribes and Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses," Matthew 23:2. Those who reject God make themselves God, Genesis 3.

6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. The Church and her evangelism in Palestine created fence-sitters who were restraining apostate Judaism. An example is Gamaliel, Acts 5:33-42. Perhaps the falling away of so many early Christians into the Judaizing heresy would release the Man of Sin.

My own best guess is that the restrainer is the presence of believers in Jerusalem, whose presence kept Sodom from being destroyed. Their captain was James.

7. For the mystery of lawlessness [the apostate Judaizing counterfeit of the Pauline Gospel Mystery] is already at work; only he who restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. The Church would be removed from Jerusalem before her destruction; also possibly this means that the fence-sitters like Gamaliel would either be converted to Christianity or would be "converted" to a whole-hearted adoption of apostate Judaism, and in either event would stop restraining. Josephus records that the Zealots and Edomites slew one such restrainer, Zechariah the son of Berechiah or Baruch, in fulfillment perhaps of Matthew 23:35. After the removal of this restrainer, all hell broke loose. See Josephus, Jewish War 4:5:4. Since Jesus had mentioned this man by name, possibly it is he who is particularly referred to here, as one they "know."

My own best guess, however, is that it is James who is referred to. James was martyred in A.D. 62 by a particularly wicked High Priest, Ananus, who was immediately deposed. He was succeeded by Jesus the son of Damneus, who was succeeded by Jesus the son of Gamaliel. Presiding over all these acting high priests, however, was the retired but still active Ananias, the same Ananias whom Paul rebuked in Acts 23:3. This corrupt man presided over everything in the Temple like a spider. Shortly after James's murder the Temple of Herod was finally completed. If there is anyone who is a likely candidate for Man of Sin, or at least the first person to occupy that position, it is Ananias. You can read about him briefly in Josephus's Antiquities 20:9, where the martyrdom of James is also recounted. (I might add that according to Luenemann's commentary on Thessalonians, which is part of Meyer's Commentary on the New Testament, an expositor named Harduin suggested that Ananias was the Man of Sin; Meyer's Commentary, vol. 7, p. 614.)

8. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and nullify by the appearance of His coming. The "breath of His mouth" might refer to Gospel preaching, which slew apostate Israel, as Chilton points out in his liturgical remarks throughout Days of Vengeance. But the Greek verb translated "consume" is used for Divine destructive fire in Luke 9:54 and in the Greek Old Testament. My believe is that this verse pictures Jesus as the True Dragon, of whom Satan is the counterfeit (compare Job 41). We can correlate this with the outpouring of fire on Jerusalem in the book of Revelation.

The "appearance of His coming" refers to Daniel 7:13 and to Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 26:64, that the High Priest would "see" (discern) the Son of Man "come" to the Father to receive His Kingdom. When the fact of that "coming" become apparent ("appears"), the Jews will be without excuse, and will be destroyed. Note: the "coming" is not the Second Coming, nor is it a "coming in wrath upon Jerusalem," but is the event predicted in Daniel 7:13 and shown in Revelation 5. Christ came to the Father at the ascension, and this was "shown" to Israel for 40 years. When Israel rejected this "second chance," they were destroyed. Jesus' entrance into the heavenly Temple "nullified" the earthly high priesthood and the earthly Temple.

Ananias was slain by Zealots in A.D. 66. Those who followed him enthroned in the Temple were equally bad. The whole company of them was brought to an end in A.D. 70.

9. The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan [the High Priest as son of Satan, not of Abraham; "You are of your father, the Devil," John 8:44], with all power and signs and false wonders [see Chilton and Josephus on the situation in Jerusalem just before the end].

10. And with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. [This clearly describes the situation of apostate Judaism.]

11. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false. [Compare Romans 1:21-32 and 1 Kings 22:19-23.]

12. In order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness.

When the Veil of the Temple was rent, the mystery locked up in the Holy Places was revealed. Parallel to this, the mystery of evil, the counterfeit of the gospel mystery, was also released (Zechariah 5:8; Revelation 17). Initially, many Jews accepted the gospel, but then under the influence of the mystery of lawlessness, many apostatized into the Judaizing counterfeit. Between the years AD 30 and 70, the mystery of lawlessness gained momentum, until it drew forth an Antichrist, the Man of lawlessness, who "incarnated" the mystery of iniquity. Parallel to this social development of wickedness was the continuing building of the Temple in Jerusalem, which was completed in A.D. 64. (Parallel to the development of wickedness and of the false Temple was the development of the true Church and Temple of God during this period.) The statement that this Man sat in the Temple, passing judgments on God Himself (on Christ and His followers), indicates that the focus and concentration-point of this phenomenon was in the High Priest, who was the head of Judaism and thus also of the Judaizers.

It was the preaching of the gospel and the presence of believers in Jerusalem that restrained the mystery of iniquity from reaching a climax (Gen. 18:22-33; Rom. 9:29; Rev. 11:Cool. I believe that the removal of that restraint happened initially with the martyrdom of James, and was worked out as the faithful Jewish Christians were massacred by the Jews and Judaizers during the next few years, immediately preceding the investiture of Jerusalem (see Revelation 7:3-8; 11:3-13; 14:1-4, 12-20; 15:2-4). Revelation 11:3-13 shows that the death of some Christian witnesses caused many Jews to convert, and I believe it is this event that Romans 11 prophesies. This multitude of new believers were massacred in Revelation 14, joining their Savior "outside the city." This massacre of Christians was the climactic abomination of desolation. At this time, when the Zealots were butchering people right and left, other Christians fled the city (Matt. 24:15-21). By driving the Christians from the city, the Jews and Judaizers drove the presence of God from their midst, leaving the city desolate. The blood of the martyrs of Revelation 14 was poured out on the city in Revelation 16 and was drunk by the Harlot in Revelation 17:3-6.

Thus, Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that the world-shaking events they were expecting were not going to happen immediately, but over the next couple of decades they would watch them unfold.


Part 3: An Overview of the Pattern

What I intend to do in this series of studies is this: First, in the present essay we shall survey the occurrences of the Abomination of Desolation in the Bible in a cursory way, in order to get the fundamental pattern before us. Next time, we shall look at the Hebrew words underlying the English word "abomination," and we shall find that the "abomination of desolation" is a technical phrase indicating a sin that only God's peculiar people can commit. Then we shall go back and look at the particular historical occurrences in more detail.

The Abomination of Desolation pattern is an extension of the basic Fall pattern seen repeatedly in the Bible. The Fall pattern is this: God gives His people a kingdom, and then immediately they fall into sin and lose the kingdom, but God is gracious and restores them. At certain climactic times, though, when their sin is extremely great, prolonged, high-handed, and performed right in front of His face, God brings His wrath upon them. God withdraws His presence from them, leaving them desolate, because their sins have become abominable. Once God departs, He brings in an enemy army to destroy His ruined house and His ruined city. The result is that His people are driven into exile, just as they drove Him into exile: eye for eye and tooth for tooth.

There are four occurrences of the Abomination of Desolation pattern in the Old Testament, and two preliminary occurrences. They are:

1. The Flood of Noah.

2. The Apostasy of Eli's Sons.

3. The Apostasy of the priesthood in Ezekiel's day.

4. The Apostasy of the priesthood in the days of the Maccabees.

The final and climactic occurrence of the pattern comes in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

The pattern stands as a warning to every Church in every time. If we commit pronounced and prolonged sins of apostasy, God will do to us as He did to them (Rev. 2-3).

Let us now survey the occurrences of the pattern. First, let us consider the Fall of Man. Because the Fall of the first man was a unique event, we cannot expect to see the pattern in all its details, but we can see it in its essence. When Adam sinned in the Garden, he did so on the sabbath, in the sanctuary, right at the center where the two trees were located. Adam was a priest, and his sin performed right before God's face was a desolating sacrilege. Instead of leaving the Garden, God drove Adam out of it. Essentially the pattern is present, however, because Adam's expulsion separated him from God's blessing and protection. God brought in an enemy to throw Adam out: the cherubim.

Yet, in the Fall we do not see the climax of sacrilege that leads to God's destroying His house. That comes at the Flood, when wickedness has matured. At the Flood, God does depart from the Garden of Eden, and brings in an enemy (the Flood, which becomes a symbol for the enemy later in the Bible) to destroy it and to destroy all the people. A remnant joins Him in exile, in the Ark, and then is returned to start a new covenant.

Second, the Golden Calf. Notice that the people committed a religious crime (idolatry) accompanied by gross sexual sin (sat down to eat, rose up to "play") right in front of God's face, for they were in the sacred area at the foot of Sinai. They got the High Priest, Aaron, to lead them in this. God's response was to withdraw from the camp and pitch His tent far outside of it. This exposed the camp to destruction. Moses was able to persuade God to return, however, and so the full pattern of destruction was averted (Exodus 32-34).

Yet, in the Golden Calf we do not see the climax of sacrilege that leads to God's destroying His house. That comes after many years of maturing evil, described in Judges, climaxing in the apostasy of Eli's Sons. Again we are in the sanctuary, and again it is the priests who, reflecting the sins of the people, take a lead in committing sacrilegious abominations. They stole God's sacrifices and committed ritual fornication (1 Sam. 3:12-17; 22). Eli refused to stop them. As a result, God desolated the sanctuary and went into exile. The priests were killed and a permanent curse put on Eli's house (1 Sam. 3-4). God brought in the Philistines to conquer and punish Israel. But God was gracious. While in Philistine exile, God defeated the gods of the Philistines and returned to Israel with much spoil (1 Sam. 5-6). Then the covenant was renewed (1 Sam. 7).

Third, the apostasy of the priesthood in Ezekiel's day. The kingdom had been given to David, and 1 Chronicles describes how David as a new Moses set up the priesthood. David fell into sin right away, but God restored him through much trauma (2 Sam. 7; 11-19). The full climax and maturation of evil comes in the years immediately preceding the exile. Ezekiel 8-11 describes in fullest detail the detestable acts that cause God to desolate His Temple. The people committed every kind of idolatry right before God's face in the Temple, and the priests were the leaders in it. Ezekiel sees God pack up and move out of the Temple, leaving it desolate. Soon God sent in Nebuchadnezzar to destroy the Temple and the city -- and remember that Daniel was Nebuchadnezzar's right-hand man at this time. The people joined God in exile, receiving a punishment equal to what they had done to Him. Again, however, God was gracious, for in Babylon God went to war with the false gods (Dan. 4-5). Eventually the people returned to Israel, with God, and the covenant was renewed.

Fourth, the apostasy in the days of the Maccabees. The kingdom of God had been restored in the days of Ezra, and then the people had immediately fallen into sin (Ezr. 9-10; Neh. 13; Malachi). God had restored them, however. Their sinfulness continued, though, and climaxed in the days of the Maccabees. This is prophesied in Daniel 11, and recorded in Josephus and in 1 & 2 Maccabees. The people rejected the Lord, and the High Priests self-consciously adopted Greek religion. They did this in the Temple, right in God's face. For political reasons, they asked Antiochus Epiphanes to come to the city and set them up in power. As a result, God desolated the Temple and city, and caused the people to anger Antiochus, who returned to the city and instituted a reign of terror. Antiochus defiled the Temple, but this is only the aftermath of what the Jews had already done. Antiochus could not really defile the Temple, because he was not one of God's peculiar people and he had no legal access to it. His defiling the temple is not the abomination of desolation, therefore.

Finally, the fulfillment of this pattern is seen in the events leading down to A.D. 70, as predicted in Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and parallel passages, many places in the epistles, and the book of Revelation. The Jews continued to do sacrifices in the Temple, right in front of God's face, after the final sacrifice had been made. They then compounded their sin by persecuting the Christians. They were eventually joined in this by apostate Christians, the Judaizers. The apostasy of the Judaizers is the "fall" of the new kingdom, but as before, God did not destroy them when they fell. He gave them opportunities to repent, but they only got worse and worse. We see in the book of Acts that it was the Jews and Judaizers who kept asking the Romans to persecute the Christians, as the High Priests in the days of the Maccabees asked Antiochus to do. The persecution of Paul by the Judaizers encapsulates the events leading to A.D. 70. In A.D. 62, they slew the Apostle James. As A.D. 70 approached, they massacred many Christian Jews. The final abominating event was the invitation by the Zealot Jews to the Idumeans (Edomites) to invade the Temple and kill anyone not favorable to the Zealot cause. This massacre of righteous people in the holy place, I believe, was the event to which Jesus pointed in Matthew 24:15-25. (See Josephus, Jewish War 4:3-6.)

At this point, God stopped giving the Jews a second chance, which He had been doing ever since Pentecost. They had committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, by rejecting this second chance. They had committed a desolating sacrilege by attacking His bride. So, He finally abandoned them. Then He brought in an army, the Romans, to destroy the Temple and the city.

But God was gracious. He went with His new people, the Church, into the Roman world, and made war on the gods of Rome, defeating them. He offers His Church to anyone, including those who think of themselves as Jews, who wants to enter her.

This is the Abomination of Desolation pattern. In our next study, we shall look at the laws of Leviticus, and we shall find two different Hebrew words, indicating that an "abomination" is any gross moral sin committed in the land, while a "detestable act" is immorality mixed with idolatry committed in God's sanctuary. We shall see that a better translation of the phrase Abomination of Desolation would be "detestable act causing desolation," for it is the Hebrew word for "detestable" that is used in the phrase we render in English "abomination of desolation." This study will prove that it is God's people and not gentiles (Antiochus; Titus) who commit the sin known as the Abomination of Desolation.

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Dok
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« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2010, 12:05:43 PM »

WOW, please read the Bible for your self and let the Holy spirit guide you. The AoD isnt a system or a pattern. And it surley didnt happen in 70 ad, and heres why.

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Didnt happen in 70 ad.
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True Salvation & the TRUE Gospel/Good News!
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2010, 01:39:41 PM »

WOW, please read the Bible for your self and let the Holy spirit guide you. The AoD isnt a system or a pattern. And it surley didnt happen in 70 ad, and heres why.

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Didnt happen in 70 ad.
Again you are not listening to anything I say. You are looking for fulfillment based on your contemporary notion of what fulfillment of these passages ought to be. I keep repeating to you that the symbolisms used in the Book of Revelations find their original context in the Old Testament. For you to know what the symbolisms mean you must look at the Old Testament where the symbolism is first used. Let me give you an example of symbolism in the Book of Revelation and the New Testament finding its original context in the Old Testament. In the book of revelation and in matthew 24, we hear of the moon turning to blood, the sun refusing to give her light and the stars falling from heaven. In the old testament the first time moon, sun and stars are used in this context references Joseph's dream of his brothers and father bowing down to him. When this is brought into the New Testament it doesn't literally mean the moon will turn to blood or that the stars will fall, all it signifies is that the present political heirarchy and institutions will be overturned. This found its fulfillment in A.D 70, when the Herodian dynasty lost their power, the Julio Claudian Dynasty was extinguished with the death of Nero, and the Pharisees lost all their power due to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Here is Days of Vengeance online for free. I humbly ask you to do me 1 favor. Print out 40 pages of it, read it then get back to me.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf


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foreverfree
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2010, 03:22:44 PM »

Sociopathfrmafrica, please go away.  you've derailed my thread long enough.  thanks for your opinion.  if you believe this, that's GREAT.  go make a thread about it and we can debate in there.  This thread is about the RAPTURE and how the Bible justifies that there will be one. 
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molon labe
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« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2010, 07:57:08 PM »

More inflated ego's under the impression that their personality should be required in "heaven" or that it should move beyond the sensual flesh mind that created it , HA!
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"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2010, 07:43:49 AM »

Sociopathfrmafrica, please go away.  you've derailed my thread long enough.  thanks for your opinion.  if you believe this, that's GREAT.  go make a thread about it and we can debate in there.  This thread is about the RAPTURE and how the Bible justifies that there will be one. 
actually, Scipio Africanus was the Roman General Publius Cornelius Scipio who defeated Hannibal. He was given the agnomen  Africanus because he defeated Hannibal in North Africa. Hence my name is to commemorate a great general who defeated the man that would have enslaved them.
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2010, 08:17:35 AM »

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Didnt happen in 70 ad.

Well than how did the false graven image idol of the Constantinian Slave Manual come to be the "enthroned noble word" of the elite lordly male racist-eugenic hell-owning bastard on a cloud and his boyfriend Satan? (in place of Our Savior, Jesus Christ's teachings alone?)
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Romans 10:9-10 King James Version


« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2010, 11:09:37 AM »

WOW, please read the Bible for your self and let the Holy spirit guide you. The AoD isnt a system or a pattern. And it surley didnt happen in 70 ad, and heres why.

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Didnt happen in 70 ad.

And less not forget the "strong delusion" described in 2 The 2 is STARTING to HEAT UP now - the Indigo children, those images of "Mary" and "crosses" in the skies, false "healings", you name it. However - all of this is nothing COMPARED TO what the AC and his false prophet will be doing to kick off the tribulation.
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« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2010, 08:47:38 AM »

Hello,

The rapture is pre-tribulation for a million different reasons. You may want to check this most wonderful & precise study from Chuck Missler.

Chuck Missler: The Rapture Part 1 of 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p20zDOjlRdc

Can't find the full version on video.google. Anyways, if this teaching leaves any doubts, you can go here,

http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/index.cfm

A lot of material for you to study. I'm sorry but God will never, ever beat the hell out of His church and then take her (the Church / Body of Christ) to the wedding feast. One of the biggest problems why people fall into the "mid or post-tribulation" is because they confuse Israel with the Church in Biblical terms. It's a honest mistake of course, it just means more study needs to be done.

Great material to study can be found at,

http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/rapture.htm

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/the_rapture_is_coming.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/pretribulation_rapture.htm

http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/articals/rapture/rapture.htm

http://www.lasttrumpetliving.com/opinion/rapture-pre-tribulation/


If you are more into a "video apresentation", then - besides Chuck Missler's most excellent teaching, you can check these out too, they'll help a ton:

Signs of the Rapture - Are YOU Ready? 1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACSXqHjNQM

PreTrib Rapture IS Coming; No If, And, Or But About It
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La_bPiTGry4

Will You Be Left Behind? Part 1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h35hqkCXlyo

Mark Hitchcock - The Timing of the Rapture (1 of 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-sEdgseYo

The Rapture and Future Events part 1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laQx6MT56IA

Rapture of The Church - 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir20yDqoCQc

The Rapture, First of a Five Part Series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UNhWyV6H4

Rapture Before Tribulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C9dFmhwqEc

The Rapture of The Church is Imminent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUov2zWIufY


mp3 audio: http://www.bridgegap.org/e/shop/item.asp?itemid=3121&catid=122


Give yourself the time to study and you'll get it without room for doubts. Take care and God bless you all & your loved ones, in Jesus name - keep looking up my brothers & sisters in Christ, the time is drawing very, very nigh !
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foreverfree
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« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2010, 10:50:00 AM »

now let's talk the implications of the rapture.  say it just happened.  the entire world, millions of people are just gone.  every child in the womb is GONE.  every child under five is GONE.  many children over five are GONE.  no trace.  you talk about an insane public going stark raving MAD, out in the streets, riots, crying, people going crazy looking for their loved ones.  All work stops.  the entire planet just shuts down.  Some planes crashed, cars left in the streets.  Money that was tied up in these accounts is untouchable.  CHAOS.

Now, amazingly, some man, some political leader, steps up and says he has all the answers.  To keep this from happening again and to get society back to working order, all you have to do is take this mark.  It's an identifying mark, a chip that either goes in your hand or up on your head and they'll scan it and you can buy stuff and they can keep track of you so that no one will ever go missing again.  You won't ever lose another child again.  Your wife could've been found if you just had this mark.  Here, line up and pledge allegiance to this man, he is your god now, he will help you. 
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molon labe
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"Cui bono?"


« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2010, 05:48:20 PM »

Harpazo or no harpazo, I'll be the second here to give Shy69 a +100. And why would God have the bride "beaten and bloody"? Gee, I don't know--maybe it's the fact he left the groom that way for awhile? And is what I learned in Sunday School incorrect--that John the Beloved was the only apostle who died a natural death? Were Paul and Peter not crucified in Rome? Was Bartholomew not flayed with oyster shells? The rest not executed? Seems the more you would follow God the more challenges you get--and not all with guarantees of being pleasurable.

I will give credence to the idea God would not have the bride beaten and bloody (or not all of the bride, rather); the bible suggests as much with the harpazo/plucking-up scripture. However, what I'm saying is I'm not counting myself amongst that number. What about "Man never is, but always to be blest?" Where did that attitude disappear to? Why are the faithful now so full of pride?

Don't get me wrong--I like talking about the mysteries of the bible, and it is an interesting thought. Boom--now, I'm suddenly in heaven, never to return to earth. What's heaven like? Was I able to see any of it while I was still on earth--see it like that guy Paul spoke about? And why was it 'unlawful' for him to tell anyone about it? What if he told them about it anyway--would anyone believe him? Or, would they just tell him to shut up like they did to that guy in the Genesis song?

Found that man reported missing
He wandered in his home
It don't seem too bad if you consider
Just what he's been through:
 
Seems he met up with a gang of thieves
Who mistook him for a man of means
They locked him up then found he had no money
So they let him go again
Now he's back at home and happy
Just to see the kids…

“I wish that I could really tell you
All the things that happened to me
And all that I have seen
A world full of people their hearts full of joy
Cities of light with no fear of war
And thousands of creatures with happier lives
And dreams of a future
With meaning and no need to hide”

“Oh, keep it dark”

It seems strange to have to lie
About a world so bright
And tell instead a made up story
From the world of night…

“I wish that I could really tell you
All the things that happened to me
And all that I have seen
A world full of people their hearts full of joy
Cities of light with no fear of war
And thousands of creatures with happier lives
And dreams of a future
With meaning and no need to lie
No need to hate
No need to hide”

“Oh keep it dark”


But I guess everything ain't for everybody.
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esse est percepi - Berkeley

"The State, its laws, its arrangements, constitute the rights of its members; its natural features, its mountains, air and waters, are their country, their fatherland, their outward material property...belongs to them and lives in their memory." - Hegel
Novus Ordo
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Posts: 646


« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2010, 05:59:13 PM »

Harpazo or no harpazo, I'll be the second here to give Shy69 a +100. And why would God have the bride "beaten and bloody"? Gee, I don't know--maybe it's the fact he left the groom that way for awhile? And is what I learned in Sunday School incorrect--that John the Beloved was the only apostle who died a natural death? Were Paul and Peter not crucified in Rome? Was Bartholomew not flayed with oyster shells? The rest not executed? Seems the more you would follow God the more challenges you get--and not all with guarantees of being pleasurable.

I will give credence to the idea God would not have the bride beaten and bloody (or not all of the bride, rather); the bible suggests as much with the harpazo/plucking-up scripture. However, what I'm saying is I'm not counting myself amongst that number. What about "Man never is, but always to be blest?" Where did that attitude disappear to? Why are the faithful now so full of pride?

Don't get me wrong--I like talking about the mysteries of the bible, and it is an interesting thought. Boom--now, I'm suddenly in heaven, never to return to earth. What's heaven like? Was I able to see any of it while I was still on earth--see it like that guy Paul spoke about? And why was it 'unlawful' for him to tell anyone about it? What if he told them about it anyway--would anyone believe him? Or, would they just tell him to shut up like they did to that guy in the Genesis song?



Found that man reported missing
He wandered in his home
It don't seem too bad if you consider
Just what he's been through:
 
Seems he met up with a gang of thieves
Who mistook him for a man of means
They locked him up then found he had no money
So they let him go again
Now he's back at home and happy
Just to see the kids…

“I wish that I could really tell you
All the things that happened to me
And all that I have seen
A world full of people their hearts full of joy
Cities of light with no fear of war
And thousands of creatures with happier lives
And dreams of a future
With meaning and no need to hide”

“Oh, keep it dark”

It seems strange to have to lie
About a world so bright
And tell instead a made up story
From the world of night…

“I wish that I could really tell you
All the things that happened to me
And all that I have seen
A world full of people their hearts full of joy
Cities of light with no fear of war
And thousands of creatures with happier lives
And dreams of a future
With meaning and no need to lie
No need to hate
No need to hide”

“Oh keep it dark”


But I guess everything ain't for everybody.

/wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zwaks7AKSg
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thebiblicaldude
Guest
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2010, 04:17:53 PM »

Scripture shows that the Rapture will come and Christ will take His saved elect. You see this mentioned in the parable of the 10 virgins, the passages that reference the days of Noah, and the days of Lot and elsewhere in scripture.
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America2
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Posts: 9,191

Romans 10:9-10 King James Version


« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2010, 11:55:49 PM »

Here's what REALLY stuck out at me with the CNN 'maitreya' ad shown last year - it started out as 'He's the Christ to Christians, who are expecting his imminent return...'(then it goes on to see Mohammed to the Muslims, Krishna to the Hindus, etc).

IMMINENT?!? I don't want to get into a debate here, but isn't this what the pre-trib doctrine stress? Imminence? As we all know, this ad is extremely deceptive - so why did it include 'Christians are expecting his IMMINENT return?'.

And, of course, there's Blue Beam - which will mind control Christians to make them believe aliens will rapture them to save them from the antichrist(while athiests will get mind controlled to believe an alien invasion is imminent, Muslims mind controlled to believe the inman madhi is coming, etc).

B/c Christians have the seal of the Lord Jesus Christ on them, no, I don't think they'll get "mind controlled", per se, BUT, when all this stuff starts to go down(false flag nukes, natural disasters, civil unrest, major famine - and we're all but left with nothing to eat, and maybe even thrown out of our homes out into the streets), people are going to go from traumatized to very desperate for ANYTHING.

Ultimately, we're going to have to be grounded in the Word of God at ALL times - there's NO time to start contemplating "When is the rapture going to happen?? When?? When??". The more time spent contemplating and worrying about this is the less time spent praying and studying the Word of God.

BTW - I DO believe that Christian persecution will happen in America BEFORE the tribulation, otherwise, the Denver Airport and all the FEMA camps are nothing but 2nd grader "show and tell".
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thebiblicaldude
Guest
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2010, 03:51:36 PM »

BTW - I DO believe that Christian persecution will happen in America BEFORE the tribulation, otherwise, the Denver Airport and all the FEMA camps are nothing but 2nd grader "show and tell".

No offense but have you been living under a rock? Christian persecution has been happing since the time of Christ. What more needs to happen before people call it for what it is. That is the problem I have with the futurist view of the tribulation and the antichrist other than it being formed form the catholic church by Fransico Ribera a jesuit priest...is that people are waiting for the bad to happen all the while it has been happening and will continue until the King comes back to claim his saved.



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