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Author Topic: Occultism is all silly nonsense  (Read 12345 times)
Freeski
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2010, 04:50:18 PM »

... His most important teaching...to love God with all of your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbors as yourself.  Everything we need to know for our soul's journey is revealed as we are ready when we follow this simple teaching.  

And that's the essence of freedom! Live and let live!Grin


Some, though, including my mom, think this means they have a duty to "force their help" on those who don't even want the help. It's the tyranny of the majority, and that's why our best chance is to continue opening the eyes, minds and hearts of people - to liberty.

PS: Of course it's not Jesus' fault! It's our own, because too many have never even thought about it.

But there's always hope! Grin
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Kilgore Trout
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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2010, 08:03:17 PM »

A braindead or unconscious body still has a heart that beats and lungs that breathe without any mind sense of self.  It is said that the soul is situated in the heart, and the soul makes the heart beat.  Here's a Gita quote in some agreement with you about oneness/beyond duality:

BG 6.5: One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well.

BG 6.6: For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.

BG 6.7: For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquillity. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same.

(The Supersoul is a part of God that gives life to the individual soul.)



Cool. I guess I might have somethoughts about what makes a soul , or what constitutes living. I must retire to my study Grin
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"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
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If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2010, 08:16:42 PM »

That's all well and good as a philosophy , but I do not regard it as truth. In fact , I think the "self" is nothing more than a product of the sensual mind and a habit of the mind's synaptic processes. Like if one suffers from amnesia , the process of the mind is interupted and thus the "self" is forgotten. So the "person" "you" think you are is absolutely of the fleshly sensual mind and has no reason to move beyond it , into some fantasy ego driven afterlife.

God = perfect, flawless.

God's creations = Flawed ? imperfect?

 It seems you are limiting yourself to your 'mind'. The mind is not the self, just a processor. My 2 sense.  Personally I dont associate the thoughts of my mind with myself. All kinds of things run through my head, associating everything in my mind with myself would be the same as associating the whole world with myself. 
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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2010, 08:22:09 PM »

!
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Animadverto
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« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2010, 08:23:32 PM »

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

August 3, 1929 by J. Krishnamurti
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Kilgore Trout
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« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2010, 08:33:41 PM »

It seems you are limiting yourself to your 'mind'. The mind is not the self, just a processor. My 2 sense.  Personally I dont associate the thoughts of my mind with myself. All kinds of things run through my head, associating everything in my mind with myself would be the same as associating the whole world with myself. 

To me , without all of the outside information (the world) we wouldn't be able to make a distinction between ourselves and everything else. We need an individual self on earth , for matters of survival. I wouldn't want to "be as one" with a tiger , because he would eat me. But in any sort of afterlife , individuation is not necessary.
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"I do not believe that there were, at the Council of Nicea,
three persons present who believed in the truth of what was set down.
If there were, it was on account of their ignorance."
J. M. Roberts, "Antiquity Unveiled", 1892
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« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2010, 08:49:18 PM »



How many atheists collect copies of this religious symbol?  You might as well be wearing a crucifix...

The people who worship that symbol believe that negative energy(pain, hunger, violence, hatred and general misery) is how they feed their God.

Can the OP not figure this out?  It's why we have poverty, war, hunger, and hate.  It's why we are being poisoned.

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« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2010, 08:54:51 PM »

It really surprises me that there's so many religious people among the 'truth' movement who're literally terrified of a few symbols or talk of non existant dietys.

It all seems centered around a sort of christian perspective of God vs Lucifer, neither of which actually exist.
And those morons who call themselves 'satanists', they're just immature idiots reading bastardized nietzsche from anton la vey.

It really boggles the mind that the 'elite' believe in this nonsense, and these 'entities', although no specifics are actually given as to what they believe in.
They have all these great big plans to rule the world, yet they still believe in fairy tales.

Can anyone shed any light as to why they do?

Hi, whatistruth. According to the known laws of physics, God does exist.

But before getting to that matter, let me point out the logical implications of a position which maintains that God does not exist.

If God does not exist, then immortality is logically impossible, as any form of immortality necessarily entails the existence of the capital-G God, in the sense of an omniscient, omnipotent and personal being with infinite computational resources. This is mathematically unavoidable, for the reason that any finite state will eventually undergo the Poincaré cycle per the Poincaré recurrence theorem. This is very easy to see by considering the simple example of two bits, which have only four possible states (i.e., 2^2): hence, once these four states have been exhausted, states will have to recur. What that means is that any finite state can only have a finite number of experiences (i.e., different states), because any finite state will eventually start to repeat.

Thus, immortality is logically inseparable from the existence of the capital-G God, since mathematically, immortality requires the existence of either an infinite computational state or a finite state which diverges to an infinite computational state (i.e., diverging to literal Godhead in all its fullness), thus allowing for states never repeating and hence an infinite number of experiences.

Yet the only thing that could give existence and life meaning is immortality, since less than full immortality would mean than living beings' consciousnesses eventually come to an end.

As well, with the growth of mental resources, it would make the death all the more tragic. Just as the death of a human is far more tragic than the death of an amoeba, the death of a superhuman intelligence would be all the worse. For then what is dying is greater in amount: more memories, more feelings, more intellect.

Hence, if literal immortality does not exist, then it would be better that we die in the womb, and if not then than the sooner the better: for every day that we go on, new experiences and memories are added which will all come to naught--which will all be snuffed out. Better that a living thing die as bacteria than it die as a sapient intelligence were it not to be immortal: all the more given that the more primitive an intelligence, the less ability it would have to contemplate its fate.

So also, it wouldn't then matter if one were a serial-killer or a mass-murderer as opposed to a paragon of kindness, as in the end it would all equate to the same thing: eternal death. All life and anything anyone had worked for would all come to naught.

Thus, the only thing that could give existence and life meaning is if God exists, since then an infinite computational state would exist, allowing for finite states to never repeat as they diverge toward greater complexity, and hence allowing an infinite number of experiences. Only then could life and consciousness, instead of coming to naught, be able to grow and progress endlessly.

-----

Fortunately, whatistruth, God has been proven to exist based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics. For much more on that, see Prof. Frank J. Tipler's below paper, which among other things demonstrates that the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics) require that the universe end in the Omega Point (the final cosmological singularity and state of infinite informational capacity identified as being God):

F. J. Tipler, "The structure of the world from pure numbers," Reports on Progress in Physics, Vol. 68, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 897-964. http://math.tulane.edu/~tipler/theoryofeverything.pdf Also released as "Feynman-Weinberg Quantum Gravity and the Extended Standard Model as a Theory of Everything," arXiv:0704.3276, April 24, 2007. http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.3276

Out of 50 articles, Prof. Tipler's above paper was selected as one of 12 for the "Highlights of 2005" accolade as "the very best articles published in Reports on Progress in Physics in 2005 [Vol. 68]. Articles were selected by the Editorial Board for their outstanding reviews of the field. They all received the highest praise from our international referees and a high number of downloads from the journal Website." (See Richard Palmer, Publisher, "Highlights of 2005," Reports on Progress in Physics. http://www.iop.org/EJ/journal/-page=extra.highlights/0034-4885 )

Reports on Progress in Physics is the leading journal of the Institute of Physics, Britain's main professional body for physicists. Further, Reports on Progress in Physics has a higher impact factor (according to Journal Citation Reports) than Physical Review Letters, which is the most prestigious American physics journal (one, incidently, which Prof. Tipler has been published in more than once). A journal's impact factor reflects the importance the science community places in that journal in the sense of actually citing its papers in their own papers. (And just to point out, Tipler's 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper could not have been published in Physical Review Letters since said paper is nearly book-length, and hence not a "letter" as defined by the latter journal.)

See also the below resources for further information on the Omega Point Theory:

Theophysics: God Is the Ultimate Physicist http://theophysics.chimehost.net , http://theophysics.host56.com , http://theophysics.ifastnet.com , http://theophysics.110mb.com

"Omega Point (Tipler)," Wikipedia, February 12, 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Omega_Point_%28Tipler%29&oldid=343556798

"Frank J. Tipler," Wikipedia, December 25, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frank_J._Tipler&oldid=333892940

Tipler is Professor of Mathematics and Physics (joint appointment) at Tulane University. His Ph.D. is in the field of global general relativity (the same rarefied field that Profs. Roger Penrose and Stephen Hawking developed), and he is also an expert in particle physics and computer science. His Omega Point Theory has been published in a number of prestigious peer-reviewed physics and science journals in addition to Reports on Progress in Physics, such as Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (one of the world's leading astrophysics journals), Physics Letters B, the International Journal of Theoretical Physics, etc.

Prof. John A. Wheeler (the father of most relativity research in the U.S.) wrote that "Frank Tipler is widely known for important concepts and theorems in general relativity and gravitation physics" on pg. viii in the "Foreword" to The Anthropic Cosmological Principle (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1986) by cosmologist Prof. John D. Barrow and Tipler, which was the first book wherein Tipler's Omega Point Theory was described. On pg. ix of said book, Prof. Wheeler wrote that Chapter 10 of the book, which concerns the Omega Point Theory, "rivals in thought-provoking power any of the [other chapters]."

The leading quantum physicist in the world, Prof. David Deutsch (inventor of the quantum computer, being the first person to mathematically describe the workings of such a device, and winner of the Institute of Physics' 1998 Paul Dirac Medal and Prize for his work), endorses the physics of the Omega Point Theory in his book The Fabric of Reality (1997). For that, see:

David Deutsch, extracts from Chapter 14: "The Ends of the Universe" of The Fabric of Reality: The Science of Parallel Universes--and Its Implications (London: Allen Lane The Penguin Press, 1997); with additional comments by Frank J. Tipler. http://theophysics.chimehost.net/deutsch-ends-of-the-universe.html

The only way to avoid the Omega Point cosmology is to resort to physical theories which have no experimental support and which violate the known laws of physics, such as with Prof. Stephen Hawking's paper on the black hole information issue which is dependent on the conjectured string theory-based anti-de Sitter space/conformal field theory correspondence (AdS/CFT correspondence). See S. W. Hawking, "Information loss in black holes," Physical Review D, Vol. 72, No. 8, 084013 (October 2005); also at arXiv:hep-th/0507171, July 18, 2005. http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0507171

That is, Prof. Hawking's paper is based upon empirically unconfirmed physics which violate the known laws of physics. It's an impressive testament to the Omega Point Theory's correctness, as Hawking implicitly confirms that the known laws of physics require the universe to collapse in finite time. Hawking realizes that the black hole information issue must be resolved without violating unitarity, yet he's forced to abandon the known laws of physics in order to avoid unitarity violation without the universe collapsing.

Some have suggested that the universe's current acceleration of its expansion obviates the universe collapsing (and therefore obviates the Omega Point). But as Profs. Lawrence M. Krauss and Michael S. Turner point out in "Geometry and Destiny" (General Relativity and Gravitation, Vol. 31, No. 10 [October 1999], pp. 1453-1459; also at arXiv:astro-ph/9904020, April 1, 1999 http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9904020 ), there is no set of cosmological observations which can tell us whether the universe will expand forever or eventually collapse.

There's a very good reason for that, because that is dependant on the actions of intelligent life. The known laws of physics provide the mechanism for the universe's collapse. As required by the Standard Model, the net baryon number was created in the early universe by baryogenesis via electroweak quantum tunneling. This necessarily forces the Higgs field to be in a vacuum state that is not its absolute vacuum, which is the cause of the positive cosmological constant. But if the baryons in the universe were to be annihilated by the inverse of baryogenesis, again via electroweak quantum tunneling (which is allowed in the Standard Model, as baryon number minus lepton number [B - L] is conserved), then this would force the Higgs field toward its absolute vacuum, cancelling the positive cosmological constant and thereby forcing the universe to collapse. Moreover, this process would provide the ideal form of energy resource and rocket propulsion during the colonization phase of the universe.

Prof. Tipler's above 2005 Reports on Progress in Physics paper also demonstrates that the correct quantum gravity theory has existed since 1962, first discovered by Richard Feynman in that year, and independently discovered by Steven Weinberg and Bryce DeWitt, among others. But because these physicists were looking for equations with a finite number of terms (i.e., derivatives no higher than second order), they abandoned this qualitatively unique quantum gravity theory since in order for it to be consistent it requires an arbitrarily higher number of terms. Further, they didn't realize that this proper theory of quantum gravity is consistent only with a certain set of boundary conditions imposed (which includes the initial Big Bang, and the final Omega Point, cosmological singularities). The equations for this theory of quantum gravity are term-by-term finite, but the same mechanism that forces each term in the series to be finite also forces the entire series to be infinite (i.e., infinities that would otherwise occur in spacetime, consequently destabilizing it, are transferred to the cosmological singularities, thereby preventing the universe from immediately collapsing into nonexistence). As Tipler notes in his book The Physics of Christianity (New York: Doubleday, 2007), pp. 49 and 279, "It is a fundamental mathematical fact that this [infinite series] is the best that we can do. ... This is somewhat analogous to Liouville's theorem in complex analysis, which says that all analytic functions other than constants have singularities either a finite distance from the origin of coordinates or at infinity."

When combined with the Standard Model, the result is the Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics.

##########

As Prof. Frank J. Tipler noted, "Any cosmology with unlimited progress will end in God." (See Anthony Liversidge, "Frank Tipler--physicist--Interview," Omni, Vol. 17, Issue 1 [October 1994], pp. 89 ff.) This means, e.g., that any form of immortality necessarily entails the existence of the capital-G God, in the sense of an omniscient, omnipotent and personal being with infinite computational resources. This is mathematically unavoidable, for the reason that any finite state will eventually undergo the Poincaré cycle per the Poincaré recurrence theorem. This is very easy to see by considering the simple example of two bits, which have only four possible states (i.e., 2^2): hence, once these four states have been exhausted, states will have to recur. What that means is that any finite state can only have a finite number of experiences (i.e., different states), because any finite state will eventually start to repeat.

Thus, immortality is logically inseparable from the existence of the capital-G God, since mathematically, immortality requires the existence of either an infinite computational state or a finite state which diverges to an infinite computational state (i.e., diverging to literal Godhead in all its fullness), thus allowing for states never repeating and hence an infinite number of experiences.

Furthermore, any universal Turing machine is equivalent to any other universal Turing machine, as any universal Turing machine can perfectly emulate any other Turing machine, and indeed, anything that can logically exist. Since one of the traditional quidditative definitions of God is having an infinite mind, then by definition God would be a universal Turing machine, and thus if a universal Turing machine existed, apodictically it would be God.

Regarding the equivalence of God and the Omega Point, Prof. Tipler has published on this equivalence in the following peer-reviewed academic journal, which is the world's leading journal on science and religion: Frank J. Tipler, "The Omega Point as Eschaton: Answers to Pannenberg's Questions for Scientists," Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science, Vol. 24, Issue 2 (June 1989), pp. 217-253; doi:10.1111/j.1467-9744.1989.tb01112.x. http://theophysics.chimehost.net/pdf/tipler-omega-point-as-eschaton.pdf , http://www.gazup.com/FLQT0-tipler-omega-point-as-eschaton.pdf-download-mirrors

The Omega Point is omniscient, having an infinite amount of information and knowing all that is logically possible to be known; it is omnipotent, having an infinite amount of energy and power; and it is omnipresent, consisting of all that exists. As well, as Stephen Hawking proved, the singularity is not in spacetime, but rather is the boundary of space and time (see S. W. Hawking and G. F. R. Ellis, The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time [London: Cambridge University Press, 1973], pp. 217-221).

The Schmidt b-boundary has been shown to yield a topology in which the cosmological singularity is not Hausdorff separated from the points in spacetime, meaning that it is not possible to put an open set of points between the cosmological singularity and *any* point in spacetime proper. That is, the cosmological singularity has infinite nearness to every point in spacetime.

So the Omega Point is transcendent to, yet immanent in, space and time.

Additionally, the cosmological singularity consists of a three-part structure: the final singularity (i.e., the Omega Point), the all-presents singularity (which exists at all times at the edge of the multiverse), and the initial singularity (i.e., the beginning of the Big Bang). These three distinct parts which perform different physical functions in bringing about and sustaining existence are actually one singularity which connects the entirety of the multiverse.

And given an infinite amount of computational resources, per the Bekenstein Bound, recreating the exact quantum state of our present universe is trivial, requiring at most a mere 10^123 bits (the number which Roger Penrose calculated), or at most a mere 2^10^123 bits for every different quantum configuration of the universe logically possible (i.e., the multiverse in its entirety up to this point in universal history). So the Omega Point will be able to resurrect us using merely an infinitesimally small amount of total computational resources: indeed, the multiversal resurrection will occur between 10^-10^10 and 10^-10^123 seconds before the Omega Point is reached, as the computational capacity of the universe at that stage will be great enough that doing so will require only a trivial amount of total computational resources.

So to recapitulate:

1.) The Omega Point (or, for that matter, the society near the Omega Point) can trivially perform the universal resurrection of the dead, upon which the people resurrected can live eternally in literal heaven, i.e., paradise.
2.) The Omega Point is omniscient.
3.) The Omega Point is omnipresent.
4.) The Omega Point is omnipotent.
5.) The cosmological singularity is a triune structure, of which the Omega Point is one component.
6.) The cosmological singularity is transcendent to, yet immanent in, space and time.
7.) The cosmological singularity is the only achieved (actually existing) infinity.
8.) The Omega Point creates the universe and all of existence.

Those are all the main physical properties that have been claimed for God in traditional Christian theology. There are many other congruities between the Omega Point cosmology and Christianity. Below are listed just some of them:

1.) We are gods: John 10:34 (Jesus is quoting Psalm 82:6).
2.) We are God and God is us: Matthew 25:31-46.
3.) We live inside of God: Acts 17:24-28.
4.) God is everything and inside of everything: Colossians 3:11; Jeremiah 23:24.
5.) We are members in the body of Christ: Romans 12:4,5; 1 Corinthians 6:15-19; 12:12-27; Ephesians 4:25.
6.) We are one in Christ: Galatians 3:28.
7.) God is all: Ephesians 1:23; 4:4-6.
8.) God is light: 1 John 1:5; John 8:12.
9.) We have existed before the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34; Luke 1:70; 11:50; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; Isaiah 40:21.
10.) Jesus has existed before the foundation of the world: John 17:24; Revelation 13:8.
11.) The reality of multiple worlds: John 18:36; Hebrews 1:1,2; 11:3.
12.) God is the son of man: Matthew 8:20; 9:6; 10:23; 11:19; 12:18; 12:32; 12:40; 13:37; 13:41; 16:13; 16:27,28; 17:9; 17:12; 17:22; 18:11; 19:28; 20:18; 20:28; 24:27; 24:30; 24:37; 24:39; 24:44; 25:13; 25:31; 26:2; 26:24; 26:45; 26:64. (This is just listing how many times Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man in the Gospel of Matthew, although he refers to himself as this throughout the Gospels. It was the favorite phrase that he used to refer to himself.)

How item Nos. 9 and 10 relate is that within Prof. Tipler's Omega Point Theory the universe is brought into being by the Omega Point, as the end-state of the universe causally brings about the beginning state, i.e., the Big Bang singularity (since in physics it's just as accurate to say that causation goes from future to past events: viz., the principle of least action; and unitarity). Another way of stating it is that in the Omega Point cosmology, the Omega Point is the fundamental existential and mathematical entity, from which all of reality derives. Indeed, within the Omega Point Theory, the Big Bang singularity and the Omega Point singularity are actually just different functions of the same singularity. Further, anything which at any time will exist will simply be a subset of what is rendered in the Omega Point.

##########

Nor does the fact that God has been proven to exist according to the known laws of physics leave no room for faith. Recall that Jesus Christ in part defined Himself as the truth (John 14:6). Hence, truth, particularly scientific truth, confirms the existence of God and Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity.

Faith in the Christian sense is trust in the truth (i.e., equivalently, trust in Jesus Christ), even when things seem hopeless. It does not mean a lack of rationality in coming to belief in Jesus Christ. Indeed, Paul appealed to reason when he wrote in Romans 1:19,20 that an understanding of the natural world leads to knowledge of God:

""
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, ...
""

After all, some form of reason must be used in order for a person to convert in belief from one religion to another; or from any belief to another belief, for that matter. It can either be veridical reason, or false reason--but some process of reasoning must be involved.

Having faith in God is having trust in the truth, since the Godhead in all its fullness is the highest obtainment of truth: said state is the perfection of all knowledge.

Unfortunately, most modern physicists have been all too willing to abandon the laws of physics if it produces results that they're uncomfortable with, i.e., in reference to religion. It's the antagonism for religion on the part of the scientific community which greatly held up the acceptance of the Big Bang (for some 40 years), due to said scientific community regarding it as lending credence to the traditional theological position of creatio ex nihilo, and also because no laws of physics can apply to a singularity itself. The originator of the Big Bang theory, circa 1930, was Roman Catholic priest and physicist Prof. Georges Lemaître; and it was enthusiastically endorsed by Pope Pius XII in 1951, long before the scientific community finally came to accept it. As regards physicists abandoning physical law due to their theological discomfort with the Big Bang, in an article by Prof. Frank J. Tipler he gives the following example involving no less than physicist Prof. Steven Weinberg:

""
The most radical ideas are those that are perceived to support religion, specifically Judaism and Christianity. When I was a student at MIT in the late 1960s, I audited a course in cosmology from the physics Nobelist Steven Weinberg. He told his class that of the theories of cosmology, he preferred the Steady State Theory because "it *least* resembled the account in Genesis" (my emphasis). In his book *The First Three Minutes* (chapter 6), Weinberg explains his earlier rejection of the Big Bang Theory: "Our mistake is not that we take our theories too seriously, but that we do not take them seriously enough. It is always hard to realize that these numbers and equations we play with at our desks have something to do with the real world. Even worse, there often seems to be a general agreement that certain phenomena are just not fit subjects for respectable theoretical and experimental effort." [My emphasis--J. R.]

... But as [Weinberg] himself points out in his book, the Big Bang Theory was an automatic consequence of standard thermodynamics, standard gravity theory, and standard nuclear physics. All of the basic physics one needs for the Big Bang Theory was well established in the 1930s, some two decades before the theory was worked out. Weinberg rejected this standard physics not because he didn't take the equations of physics seriously, but because he did not like the religious implications of the laws of physics. ...
""

For that and a number of other such examples, see:

Frank J. Tipler, "Refereed Journals: Do They Insure Quality or Enforce Orthodoxy?," Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID), Vols. 2.1 and 2.2 (January-June 2003). http://www.iscid.org/papers/Tipler_PeerReview_070103.pdf Also published as Chapter 7 in Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing, edited by William A. Dembski, "Foreword" by John Wilson (Wilmington, Delaware: ISI Books, 2004).

Prof. Stephen Hawking reinforces what Weinberg and Tipler wrote about concerning the antagonism of the scientific community for religion, resulting in them abandoning good physics. In his book The Illustrated A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam Books, 1996), pg. 62, Hawking wrote:

""
Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention. (The Catholic Church, on the other hand, seized on the big bang model and in 1951 officially pronounced it to be in accordance with the Bible). There were therefore a number of attempts to avoid the conclusion that there had been a big bang.
""

On pg. 179 of the same book, Hawking wrote "In real time, the universe has a beginning and an end at singularities that form a boundary to spacetime and at which the laws of science break down."

Agnostic and physicist Dr. Robert Jastrow, founding director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, wrote in his book God and the Astronomers (New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1978), pg. 113:

""
This religious faith of the scientist [that there is no First Cause] is violated by the discovery that the world had a beginning under conditions in which the known laws of physics are not valid, and as a product of forces or circumstances we cannot discover. When that happens, the scientist has lost control. If he really examined the implications, he would be traumatized.
""

For more quotes by Robert Jastrow on this, see:

John Ross Schroeder and Bill Bradford, "Science and Discomfiting Discoveries" in Life's Ultimate Question: Does God Exist? (United Church of God, 2000) http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/GE/discomfitingdiscoveries.htm , http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/GE/GE.pdf

For more quotes by scientists along the above lines, see the below article:

Mariano, "In the Beginning ... Cosmology, Part I," Atheism's Assertions, February 20, 2007 http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2009/02/in-beginning-cosmology-part-i-pre-big.html

Again, the only way to avoid the Omega Point cosmology is to resort to physical theories which have no experimental support and which violate the known laws of physics, such as with Prof. Stephen Hawking's paper on the black hole information issue which is dependent on the conjectured string theory-based anti-de Sitter space/conformal field theory correspondence (AdS/CFT correspondence). See S. W. Hawking, "Information loss in black holes," Physical Review D, Vol. 72, No. 8, 084013 (October 2005); also at arXiv:hep-th/0507171, July 18, 2005. http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0507171

That is, Prof. Hawking's paper is based upon empirically unconfirmed physics which violate the known laws of physics. It's an impressive testament to the Omega Point Theory's correctness, as Hawking implicitly confirms that the known laws of physics require the universe to collapse in finite time. Hawking realizes that the black hole information issue must be resolved without violating unitarity, yet he's forced to abandon the known laws of physics in order to avoid unitarity violation without the universe collapsing.

Contrast that ad libitum approach to doing physics with that of Prof. Frank J. Tipler, who bases his Omega Point Theory and the Feynman-Weinberg quantum gravity/extended Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) strictly on the known laws of physics, and that of Prof. David Deutsch (inventor of the quantum computer, being the first person to mathematically describe the workings of such a device, and winner of the Institute of Physics' 1998 Paul Dirac Medal and Prize for his work). They both believe we have to take the known laws of physics seriously as true explanations of how the world works, unless said physics are experimentally, or otherwise, refuted.
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Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761

Theophysics (a website with information on Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point Theory) http://theophysics.host56.com http://theophysics.ifastnet.com
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2010, 09:39:13 AM »

Oh my goodness, James Redford!  You are really smart.  Take that NWO.  Cheesy  I am really enjoying this thread.
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2010, 10:02:48 AM »




Daniel 7: 4-5

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Lion - British
Eagle - America (English speaking)
Russia - Bear

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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2010, 11:23:53 AM »

Hi, whatistruth. According to the known laws of physics, God does exist.

@James Redford – I find your information very compelling and have some questions for you.

Is there any information, based off of known laws of physics that can either confirm or deny the existence of:

--a supernatural realm or realms normally unable to be perceived via the human 5 senses

--intelligent or self aware entities within these realms

--immortality of such entities

Thanks for explaining the Omega Point and showing the comparison to traditional Christian theology.  It’s the first time I’d ever seen these ideas.
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2010, 02:35:17 PM »



How many atheists collect copies of this religious symbol?  You might as well be wearing a crucifix...

The people who worship that symbol believe that negative energy(pain, hunger, violence, hatred and general misery) is how they feed their God.

Can the OP not figure this out?  It's why we have poverty, war, hunger, and hate.  It's why we are being poisoned.




The occult symbol of our age. Excellent point 37.

Here is an interesting site with what appears to be a very scholarly breakdown of symbolism and meaning of the Great Seal.
http://www.greatseal.com/



I could write a whole paper on this subject. Here is just a taste...

Some thoughts on the $ symbol

 


The H and Christogram is this interesting picture of the Christogram letters overlapping as they are often depicted. The 3 pillars and the Serpent S making an almost dollar-sign/caduceus/tree-of-life symbol.
"IHS" may also originate from the ancient Egyptian trinity Isis, Horus and Set. Deities of sun worship.


Moses and the Israelites erect the serpent's cross. Numbers 21:6-9 (KJV)

And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.



The gruesome symbol of a crucified serpent is an old alchemical drawing representing the “fixing of the volatile,” or, making the elixir of mercury, a legendary curative, by removing the ‘volatile’ or poisonous element. The picture is derived from the biblical story of Moses, who erected a brazen snake as a charm against plague.


Snake standing on its tail and cut through from the right by an arrow, within a thelemic symbol incorporationg the duality of the hexagram, and on the seal of Cagliostro, founder of the Masonic Egyptian Rite. It is said to represent the letters S and I, for Supérieur Inconnu (Unknown Superior in French language), and bears a notable similarity to the modern day $ sign.






Apart from being the wellknown letter, this sign is common in modern systems to denote distance and similar concepts. It was at times used to denote saintliness or holiness in connection with names of saints.

It is one of the many signs used for lead in early chemistry, and has long been used for south in geographical contexts.

The alchemists used S to denote the essence, spiritus or spirit of substances. S is but one of the many synonyms. The use of S to denote saintliness or holiness is closely associated with this alchemical use of it.



Two identical, parallel, and vertical lines represent two complete entities. An example is the sign of Gemini, and the Latin numeral for 2.

In geometry this sign can mean parallel with.

In the US system of hobo signs II stands for here you can get whatever you want, they will give you all you ask for.



Alchemical/Magickal



Alchemic sigil for cinnabar dating at least as far back as the early eighteenth century.


Greek mythology

That the dollar sign may have also originated from Hermes
Hermes is the Messenger of the gods in Greek mythology as well as a guide to the Underworld. An Olympian god, he is also the patron of boundaries and of the travelers who cross them, of shepherds and cowherds, of thieves and road travelers, of orators and wit, of literature and poets, of...


- one of his symbols was the caduceus
The caduceus is typically depicted as a short herald's staff entwined by two serpents in the form of a double helix, and is sometimes surmounted by wings. This staff was first borne by Iris, the messenger of Hera...

- a staff from which ribbons or snakes dangled in a sinuous curve.


Spanish coat of arms

That the dollar sign derives from the Spanish coat of arms engraved on the Spanish colonial silver coins. The Spanish coat of arms on the coins includes two columns, the Pillars of Hercules

Pillars of Hercules
The Pillars of Hercules was the phrase that was applied in Antiquity to the promontories that flank the entrance to the Strait of Gibraltar. The northern Pillar is the Rock of Gibraltar in the British overseas territory of Gibraltar...

and a small "S"-shaped ribbon around each, with the motto "Plus Ultra

Plus Ultra
Plus Ultra is Latin for "further beyond" and may refer to;*Plus Ultra , the motto of, among others, Charles V and Spain...



zinjifrah (Cinnabar)


A sign used in late alchemy and early chemistry for cinnabar.

Cinnabar, (cinnabarite, red mercury(II) sulfide (HgS), native vermilion), is the common ore of mercury. The name comes from the Greek – "kinnabari" – used by Theophrastus, and was probably applied to several distinct substances. Other sources say the word comes from the Persian zinjifrah, a word of uncertain origin. In Latin it was sometimes known as minium, meaning also "red lead", though both of these terms now refer uniquely to lead tetroxide.

Cinnabar was mined by the Roman Empire both as a pigment and for its mercury content, and it has been the main source of mercury throughout the centuries.

To produce liquid (quicksilver) mercury, crushed cinnabar ore is roasted in rotary furnaces. Pure mercury separates from sulfur in this process and easily evaporates. A condensing column is used to collect the liquid metal, which is most often shipped in iron flasks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar


Dragon's blood

A great degree of confusion existed for the ancients in regard to the source and identity of dragon's blood. The resin of Dracaena species, "true" dragon's blood, and the very poisonous mineral cinnabar (mercury sulfide) were often confused by the ancient Romans, and there appears to have been a tendency to call anything that was bright red "dragon's blood".

In neopagan Witchcraft, it is used to increase the potency of spells for protection, love, banishing and sexuality. In "New Age" shamanism it is used in ceremonies in a similar way as the neopagans use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_blood



Vermilion

Vermilion, sometimes spelled vermillion, when found naturally occurring, is an opaque orangish red pigment, used since antiquity, originally derived from the powdered mineral cinnabar. Chemically, the pigment is mercuric sulfide, HgS, and like many mercury compounds it is toxic. Its name is derived from the French vermeil which was used to mean any red dye, and which itself comes from vermiculum, a red dye made from the insect Kermes vermilio.[1] The word for the color red in Portuguese (vermelho) and Catalan (vermell) derives from this term.

Today, vermilion is most commonly artificially produced by reacting mercury with molten sulfur. Most naturally produced vermilion comes from cinnabar mined in China, giving rise to its alternative name of China red.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion



Alchemic sigils Of further interest...

Amalgam


Clay


Crystal


Gold


Gold


Gold/Sun


Purify


Take


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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2010, 04:52:21 PM »

I find it puzzling how anyone serious about researching for the truth does not come to the conclusion that we are ruled by a ruthless satanic cult, if you can't admit satan exists that's  fine, but to say the elite don't believe in satan is to disregard the facts, I consider these people co intel pro or noobs
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2010, 05:27:23 PM »

I find it puzzling how anyone serious about researching for the truth does not come to the conclusion that we are ruled by a ruthless satanic cult, if you can't admit satan exists that's  fine, but to say the elite don't believe in satan is to disregard the facts, I consider these people co intel pro or noobs
usually
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2010, 06:04:46 PM »

I find it puzzling how anyone serious about researching for the truth does not come to the conclusion that we are ruled by a ruthless satanic cult, if you can't admit satan exists that's  fine, but to say the elite don't believe in satan is to disregard the facts, I consider these people co intel pro or noobs

partly, too, because they haven't looked at some of the shit you have, and the other way around
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« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2010, 06:53:21 PM »

I find it puzzling how anyone serious about researching for the truth does not come to the conclusion that we are ruled by a ruthless satanic cult, if you can't admit satan exists that's  fine, but to say the elite don't believe in satan is to disregard the facts, I consider these people co intel pro or noobs

You are ruled by who you allow to rule you. The majority want their rulers , they show this by playing the voting game , and not starting fires. My point is , if we allow this , we are all SATAN.
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« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2010, 07:01:39 PM »

"You are ruled by who you allow to rule you. The majority want their rulers , they show this by playing the voting game , and not starting fires. My point is , if we allow this , we are all SATAN."

I agree with that statement.  To many people go along with the program not realizing, they to, will be part of the sacrifice.  Some, who have a little extra scratch in their pocket believe that they are part of the system.

If you do not have a ticket into the mountain, then you are neither large nor tight between your legs.  But, believe whatever you wish to.
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« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2010, 07:24:59 PM »

You are ruled by who you allow to rule you. The majority want their rulers , they show this by playing the voting game , and not starting fires. My point is , if we allow this , we are all SATAN.
Ok, then, but everything is always easier said than done.  They are attacking us physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, pretty much every which way imaginable.  So, you must have a brilliant plan to judge us all and call us all Satan for not having the courage, brains, heart, etc to carry out this supposed plan that exists somewhere in the galaxy?
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2010, 07:33:05 PM »

"So, you must have a brilliant plan"

Mass non-compliance
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« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2010, 07:35:34 PM »

"So, you must have a brilliant plan"

Mass non-compliance
With all of their new laws to move us into their prison state grid....Ok, so we all end up in jail?  Good move.

We are fighting a spiritual battle here and I don't feel like Alex is really pointing this out to people.  I feel that his show is always so angry and worldly.  Some days I can't even listen to it bc it is frightening (I don't believe that he is a fearmongerer, but it is v negative and heavy news material).  So I have to remind myself that I fear no man but God.  My body is but a shell and the soul is a pearl.  IMHO, this life is almost an illusion if you can see the big picture.
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« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2010, 07:37:48 PM »

They cant put everyone in prison
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« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2010, 07:40:08 PM »

PS

That is how Gandi defeated the British.
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« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2010, 08:13:02 PM »

"So, you must have a brilliant plan"

Mass non-compliance
In order for mass non compliance to work you need a mass awakening which we are far from having, therefore your solution isn't realistic
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« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2010, 08:22:58 PM »

“Signs and symbols rule the world, not words nor laws.” -Confucius
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« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2010, 08:38:03 PM »

"In order for mass non compliance to work you need a mass awakening which we are far from having"

I also agree with this statement.  So you have some choices - wake up as many people as you can,  head for the hills, or stand and fight.  Unfortunately, time is short and the options are narrowing.

"If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain "

"Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth."

 
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« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2010, 09:32:55 PM »

Ok, then, but everything is always easier said than done.  They are attacking us physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, pretty much every which way imaginable.  So, you must have a brilliant plan to judge us all and call us all Satan for not having the courage, brains, heart, etc to carry out this supposed plan that exists somewhere in the galaxy?


It is only those who kid themselves that think they are apart from Satan , or evil or corruption. The fact is , no one is innocent. All are corrupt , all are trying to win for SELF. There is no altruism , the person is nothing more than corrupt , it is the only way to live on earth. By taking advantage of others in ways that might be unknown to the perpetrator , but one must remember none are righteous , none are innocent , and No God or Satan will change that.
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« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2010, 09:48:13 PM »


It is only those who kid themselves that think they are apart from Satan , or evil or corruption. The fact is , no one is innocent. All are corrupt , all are trying to win for SELF. There is no altruism , the person is nothing more than corrupt , it is the only way to live on earth. By taking advantage of others in ways that might be unknown to the perpetrator , but one must remember none are righteous , none are innocent , and No God or Satan will change that.
Ok, who peed in your Cheerios this morning?  It wasn't me.
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« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2010, 10:07:03 PM »

I am not fooled that's all. I am aware that the feigning of innocence or righteousness is a little ploy of the ego to act as if one is somehow greater than those who would be the "oppressor".
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« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2010, 08:19:03 AM »

Well, Sir, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it even though I don't agree with it.  You have no idea what people do with their time and only God can judge us.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
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« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2010, 09:30:05 AM »




Daniel 7: 4-5

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Lion - British
Eagle - America (English speaking)
Russia - Bear



  I love ya orange cat but I have to disagree with this. There are only four great world powers in bible prophecy. See Dan chapter 2.

The first kingdom is Babylon.

Here in chap 2 Daniel is telling the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, the meaning of his dream as was given to him by God.

Dan 2
[
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.37] Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.




[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.



http://www.danielbibleprophecy.org/daniel7.html
Daniel Chapter 7

The Rise of Anti-Christ

Daniel 7:1-3 “In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2 Daniel spoke and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.”

In the first year of Belshazzar... - It was in the first year of king Belshazzar that Daniel had a vision and wrote down all that he saw, with the interpretation.

Four winds of heaven - It is quite obvious as we go down through this prophecy that the Bible uses a number of symbols to describe what is taking place. Only the Bible can be used to interpret these symbols.

In Jeremiah 25:31-33 we see that when a great whirlwind is raised up it wreaks death and destruction upon those it comes against. Also in Jeremiah 4:13 we find that the chariots that spoiled the people, (this being a prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem by the hand of Babylon Vs 5, 6), were likened unto a whirlwind. So it is easily seen that winds are a symbol of war, strife, bloodshed, and trouble. Four being from the four quarters of the earth or the four points of the compass Jeremiah 49:36.

Strove upon the great sea - Seas are a symbol of multitudes, nations, tongues, and peoples. (Revelation 17:15, Isaiah 17:12)

Four great beasts came up from the sea - A beast is a symbol of a king or kingdom, so to is a horn. (Daniel 7:17; 23-24) Already we are seeing a picture of what Daniel is being shown. Strife, war and bloodshed is upon the nations as kingdom conquers kingdom to rise to world supremacy. Notice how the beasts rose up out of the sea, thus showing that each kingdom rose out of a densely populated area. We are looking at world events as it comes from all directions, all encompassing.

Diverse one from another - The people in each controlling nation were different, the laws and customs were different, and even the administration of the kingdoms was different.

Daniel 7:4 “The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.”

The first - This shows that all the kingdoms came in succession, as they are known as the first, second and so on.

Was like a lion, and had eagles wings - A lion is strong and very courageous, and it is also known as the king of the beasts. But which kingdom does this winged lion represent? If we look in Jeremiah 4:5-7, it is seen there a prophecy regarding the coming destruction of Judah and Jerusalem under the hand of Babylon. Notice how Babylon, who came from the north, is described as a lion. We also know from Daniel chapter 1 that it was Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, that came and conquered Judah and Jerusalem. Babylon is represented by this lion.

Wings are a symbol of speed or swiftness as seen in Habakkuk 1:6-9. It is also interesting to note that in these verses it is prophesied of the rise of the Chaldeans/Babylonians whilst they were still an Assyrian province. Their horsemen were to be like an eagle that hasteth to eat, that is, fast, showing their speed of conquest. The winged lion symbol is found on many Babylonian objects of art and also upon the Ishtar gates, which were the gates of entry for the triumphant armies. This symbol is utilised by Bible prophets in talking about Babylon.

Wings were plucked...made stand upon feet as a man...man’s heart given... - Here we see a change taking place in the Babylonian power. No longer was it swift to fly upon its enemies or quick to defend its territory like the king of the beasts, the strong courageous heart of a lion was replaced by a weak and wicked heart of a man, and made to stand as a man.

In the time of the downfall of Babylon under Belshazzar’s reign, the kingdom was reduced to the walls of Babylon itself. With the conquering spirit gone and regarding that their power came from their god’s. (Habakkuk 1:11, Jeremiah 50:38) God had abandoned them and the Babylonian kingdom fell with Belshazzar being slain in the middle of a drunken feast. See chapter 5. Babylon reigned from 606-538 B.C.

Daniel 7:5 “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”

Another beast - We are now introduced to the next kingdom rising to power.

Like a bear...raised up on one side - A bear is very vicious, ferocious, also blood thirsty. But this one is raised up on one side showing that one side is being favoured, thus being weaker.

This is a very good description of the Medo-Persian Empire. They were cruel and vicious. (Isaiah 13:15-19) Also they were partly strong and partly weak. Darius the Mede and Cyrus his nephew came together so as to go up against Babylon. The Persians were much stronger than the Medes, hence the bear raised up on one side, with the Persians ruling the kingdom for the majority of the time. See Inserted note, A.

Three ribs in its mouth - This bear has been devouring other beasts as it has three ribs in its mouth. These three ribs can represent the three kingdoms that the Medes and Persians conquered as they were rising to power, these are Lydia, Egypt, and Babylon.

Arise devour much flesh - The Medo-Persian empire was much larger than the Babylonian empire. They ruled over 127 provinces from India to Ethiopia. (Esther 1:1) Medes and Persians ruled from 538-331 B.C.

Daniel 7:6 “After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.”

After this...another - The next power is now introduced to us. You would notice by now that this chapter is a parallel to chapter 2. You can see a repeat of what we have already looked at but with a little more information. This is one of the very important principles to remember, prophecy works on repeat and enlarge.

A leopard...four wings of a fowl - A leopard is very good at catching its prey off guard especially by ambushing its prey. It has a reasonable amount of speed, but with four wings to assist it in gaining more speed. This, you will see, is a fitting description of this next power.

Greece, under Alexander the Great, was good at catching their prey off guard because of the speed at which they moved. In showing this we only have to look at the time taken to conquer the then known world. It took Alexander and his army 12 years to subdue the world. He marched his army over 8364 kilometres in that space of time, which took them from Macedonia all the way to India and down through to Libya and Egypt in the south. The final death blow to the Medo-Persian kingdom was at the Battle of Arbela in 331 B.C. where Darius the third was defeated. We shall see more of this in chapter 8.

The wings of a fowl were upon this beast. A fowls flight is one of speed whist ascending, but expires very quickly at its peak. Thus was the case of Greece. Alexander rose very quickly to power but at the peak of his rise he died in a drunken debauch at the age of 31 in 323 B.C. Some say it was malaria that killed him.

Four heads - As Alexander was dieing, his generals asked who was to take the kingdom and rule. Alexander’s reply was “to the strongest.” Through much fighting the kingdom was divided amongst the four remaining generals and hence the four heads. The decisive battle was the battle of Ipsus in 301 B.C. where Antigonus was killed and thus the four divisions as follows;

1. Cassander - Macedonia and Greece.
2. Lysimachus - Thrace, parts of Asia, Hellespont and Bosporus in the north.
3. Ptolemy - Egypt, Libya, Arabia, Palestine, and Coele-Syria in the south.
4. Seleucus - Syria eastward.

The Grecian empire reigned from 331-168 B.C.

Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”

After this...a fourth beast - Daniel saw this power coming to its end, and as he does he sees a fourth kingdom coming to supremacy.

There is no animal to describe this power that is rising to supremacy, thus it is called the non-descript beast.

Strong exceedingly - This power was to be very strong.

Iron teeth...devoured and brake in pieces - It had iron teeth that were to brake and devour whatever was before it. In v23 we find it was to devour the whole earth.

Stamped the residue with the feet of it - Whatever was left over was to put into subject to this power.

This gives us a good description of the great iron Roman power that conquered the Grecian empire. Rome conquered many cities and left a trail of carnage behind them, with the residue put into slavery. They stamped their authority upon the then known world and Rome was the strongest and largest of all the preceding kingdoms. We shall see more of them in chapter 11.

It was diverse - This was true of the Roman empire. It was different to all the kingdoms before as they were monarchy’s whereas Rome was a republic.

It had ten horns - You will remember that a horn is a symbol of a king or kingdom v24. The 10 horns parallel to the feet of iron and clay of chapter 2.

Western Rome eventually split into 10 divisions by 476 A.D., with the last emperor, Romulus Augustus, moving his seat to the east, Constantinople. The ten divisions are as follows;
The ten divisions of Rome
Ostrogoths - Exterminated.    Vandals - Exterminated.
Franks - France.    Suevi - Portugal.
Alemanni - Germany.    Anglo-Saxons - England.
Heruli - Exterminated.    Lombards - Italy.
Burgundians - Switzerland.    Visigoths - Spain.

Rome ruled from 168 B.C.-476 A.D.

Daniel 7:8 “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”

Whilst Daniel was considering the 10 horns, another little horn rose up from among them. We will look at this power a little later in the chapter, as there are 10 identifying marks in this chapter to show who this power is.

Daniel 7:9-10 “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

Beheld till the thrones were cast down - Daniel continued to look at this scene until thrones were cast down. The casting down is not in the way of destroying but to set in place, in the original language.

Ancient of Days - Here we are given a personal description of the Ancient of Days. This we know to be God the Father as Christ, the Son of Man, comes to Him in verse 13. God the Father came and sat upon the throne of judgment. We see that the throne has wheels and can thus be moved as Ezekiel chapters 1 and 10 also show us.

Thousand thousands ministered... - These are not sinful beings before the throne ministering, but they are the angels and living creatures as John tells us in Revelation 5:11. They all stood before the throne where the Father sat.

Judgment was set...books were opened - “The closing up of the ministration of Christ, our great High Priest, in the heavenly sanctuary, is the work of judgment here introduced. It is an investigative judgment. The books are opened, and the cases of all come up for examination before that great tribunal, that it may be determined beforehand who are to receive eternal life when the Lord shall come to confer it upon His people.” Daniel and the Revelation, U. Smith, pg 120. We shall see more of this in later studies.

Daniel 7:11-12 “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.”

Beheld then, because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake - Whilst in prophetic vision Daniel saw one event rapidly following another. Now Daniel has moved forward in time from the judgment scene to the time when, because of the great words that the little horn spake, this beast is destroyed and given to the burning flame. Clearly this is a reference to the destruction of the wicked one at the second coming of Christ, (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:19-21) parallel to the stone cut out without hands that smote the image. (Daniel 2:44-45) Thus this beast continues through to the second coming and is destroyed.

Rest of the beasts...dominion taken away...lives were prolonged...– The rest of the beasts before it had there dominion taken away and their lives prolonged for a season and a time. This was true concerning Babylon, as its territory was made subject to Persia but the subjects of Babylon were allowed to live on. Thus it was with Persia when Greece took over, and with Greece when Rome took over. But with this fourth beast and little horn, judgment shall sit and his dominion shall be taken away to be consumed and destroyed v26.

This shows to us that there will be no other kingdom that will succeed the fourth kingdom, no government or state in which mortals have any part as destruction comes with the end of the fourth beast. There are no second chances, no millennial reign of peace or second probationary time.

Daniel 7:13-14 “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

One like the son of man - The Son of man is none other than Jesus Christ, Matthew 16:13.

Came with the clouds of heaven - Notice how the clouds of heaven brought Christ to the Father, thus showing that the clouds are Christ’s transport. We know from Psalms 18:10 and 68:17 that the mode of transport that divinity uses is the angels. Thus the angels brought Christ into the presence of the Father.

Came to the Ancient of days - Note that this is not the second coming of Christ, but the coming of Christ to the Ancient of days/God the Father.

There was given him - That is, given the Son of man/Christ.

Dominion, and glory, and a kingdom - Christ came to God the Father to receive His kingdom, which is an everlasting kingdom that shall not be destroyed nor pass away. The judgment that is taking place is to show who will make up the subjects of that kingdom. We will see more of this in later studies.

All people, nations, and languages, should serve him - This is all the nations of them that are saved, (Revelation 21:24) which are those that keep the Commandments of God. (Revelation 22:14-15) For remember that the wicked are slain at the second coming.

Daniel 7:15-18 “I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”

Daniel was grieved - This vision brought grief to Daniel and it troubled him. Obviously it had quite an impact upon his mind.

Asked him the truth - Daniel wished to know the truth of what he had seen, so he came near to the angel and asked him. The angel told Daniel the interpretation of the things. Thus it is not hidden from us either.

These great beasts - The four great beasts that Daniel saw are symbolic of four kings/kingdoms that shall come upon the world.

But the saints... - The angel now encourages Daniel, who was grieved and troubled, by letting him know that, even though these things were going to come to pass, the saints of the Most High will possess the kingdom in the end.

Daniel 7:19-22 “Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spoke very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”

I would know the truth of the fourth beast - Looking at these verses, we can see that Daniel’s main focus was upon the fourth beast with the ten horns and the little horn that came up.

As to the doings of this little horn, we will look at them in the next verses.

Until the Ancient of days came...saints possess the kingdom - Here we have listed a chain of events that take place;

The coming of the Ancient of days is dealing with the opening of the judgment scene in Vs 9, 10.
Judgment is given to the saints or in favour of the saints. The saints have nothing to fear of the judgment if they are faithful to Christ. The judgment will vindicate God and His people.

Saints possessed the kingdom. This is the time of their entrance upon the new earth. Sin and sinners are no more, they have been completely wiped out. (Malachi 4:1-3)

We shall now look at the 10 identifying marks of this little horn power that is regarded as the Anti-Christ of Bible prophecy. In doing so, we would suggest the reader to also look in verses 8, 20, and 21 for identifying marks

Daniel 7:23-26 “Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.”

The ten identifying marks are as follows;

1. Arises out of the fourth beast/Rome, Vs 8, 24.
2. Arises after the 10 horns/10 divisions of western Rome, Vs 8, 24.
3. Arises among the 10 horns/10 divisions of western Rome, V 8.
4. As he arose he plucked up 3 horns by the roots/exterminated 3 kingdoms of western Rome, Vs 8, 24.
5. Began little but became more stout, greater or more arrogant than his fellows, Vs 8, 20.
6. Diverse, or different, from the others, V 24.
7. Eyes like the eyes of man, speak great words, which is blasphemy against the Most High, Vs 8, 25. The Bible defines blasphemy as; when being only a man you make yourself as God. (John 10:30-33) Also claiming to be able to forgive sins when only a man. (Mark 2:5-7)
8. Thinks to change times and laws, V 25.
9. Wears out, that is persecutes the saints, V25.
10. He would reign for a time, times, and the dividing/half a time, V 25.

The word time in the original language here means a year, thus it would be a time = 1 year, times = 2 years, half a time = 1/2 a year. Making 3 1/2 years in total. In Revelation 12:6 it is known as 1260 days and in Revelation 13:5 42 months, clearly showing us that each year had 360 days in it. A day in Bible prophecy = a year. (In Ezekiel 4:6, Ezekiel was acting out a prophetic parable, and the Lord gave him each day for a year and in Numbers 14:34, the Lord prophesied that each day the spies searched the land, 40 days in total, they would spend a year wandering in the wilderness, 40 years in total). So quite clearly a day = a year in prophecy, thus we have here this little horn reigning for 1260 years.

These are the 10 identifying marks of the little horn, commonly known as the Anti-Christ power. To be this power, all 10 marks must be fulfilled. There is only one power that fulfils every identifying mark, that is the Papacy/Roman Catholic Church. The people are not the antichrist but the system is the system of antichrist.

We will now go through and show how the Papacy/Catholic Church meets these requirements.

The Papacy rose out of the fourth beast/Rome.
It also rose after the 10 divisions of the western Roman empire in 476 A.D., as it rose to full supremacy in 538 A.D.
The Papacy rose out of Rome itself, clearly showing that it came up amongst the 10 divisions of the western Roman empire.

The 3 horns were the Heruli, Vandals and the Ostrogoths. All three held to the doctrine of Arianism, (this teaches that Jesus is not “God” but that is in fact a created being, he came forth from the Father at some time in eternity past). These were vehemently opposed to the Papacy and were obstructing them from rising to full supremacy. Odoacer, king of the Heruli, took the throne of Italy in 476 A.D. Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol 4, chapter 36, pg 58. The Heruli were an oppressing power to the Papacy and thus needed to be removed. Zeno, emperor of the East, and a friend of the pope, was anxious to drive Odoacer out of Italy. Machiavelli, pg 6. This he saw done by Theodoric who had taken the throne of the Ostrogoths, and was on friendly terms with him. Theodoric wrote a letter to Zeno asking permission to take his Goths to some more favourable region, which they might conquer and possess. Zeno gave permission to march against Odoacer and take possession of Italy. The war lasted 3 years until in 493 A.D. the Heruli were overthrown and Odoacer treacherously slain. At this time we think it appropriate to quote from Machiavelli’s History of Florence, pg 14; “Nearly all the wars which the northern barbarians carried on in Italy, it may be here remarked, were occasioned by the pontiffs; and the hordes with which the country was inundated, were generally called in by them.” So though the hands of the Roman pontiffs might not be visibly manifest in the movements upon the political board, they constituted the power working assiduously behind the scenes to secure their own purposes.

The Vandals were the second to be uprooted. In 533 A.D. Emperor Justinian, who ruled from Constantinople in the east, decreed that the Bishop of Rome was the Universal Bishop over the entire church (today the Pope remains the universal bishop over the Roman Catholic Church by reason of this decree). But the Catholics were suffering a violent persecution from the Arian Vandals of northern Africa. They were intolerant of the Catholics and termed them heretics. Thus unless they could be removed the Papacy could not rise to the power of Justinian’s decree. Justinian sent his ablest General Belisarius to north Africa and totally wiped the Vandals from the face of the earth in the year 534 A.D., thus uprooting the second horn.

This only left the Arian tribe of the Ostrogoths, who had the throne of Italy and were restraining the power of the Papacy. They too were defeated by Belisarius in the year 538 A.D., leaving not enough of them to have their heritage remain. Justinian’s decree could take effect now as the three horns of opposition had been removed (Heruli, Vandals, and the Ostrogoths). The Papacy now had full supremacy, 538 A.D.

More stout or greater than his fellows, arrogant. The Papacy began as a church in the city of Rome. A member of the sisterhood of Christian churches around the world, and the bishop or elder of the city of Rome, was no more important than the bishops in any other major city including Jerusalem, Antioch, or Alexandria. However, by 538 A.D. the Papacy was no longer just a little church, it was a controlling political force that controlled kings and queens of Europe. An example of the Pope’s power is seen in the experience of Pope Gregory VII in 1076, when he informed the subjects of Henry IV, emperor of Germany, that due to Henry’s disloyalty to the Papal See, they were under no obligation to obey him. Henry was the most powerful monarch in Europe at the time, but he nonetheless made a pilgrimage to Cannosa in the Alps, where the Pope was residing, and waited three painful days, barefoot in the snow, until Pope Gregory forgave him. It is of note that those who supported the Papacy were to be found in all nations, instead of owing allegiance only within one nation’s boundaries.

The Papacy was diverse or different from the other powers before it. It was not just a political nation but was in fact a church, which had gained temporal or political power.

Eyes like the eyes of a man, speak great words against the Most High. This clearly shows that this organization was to be headed by a man and that this man would speak great words or blasphemies against the Most High. We have found blasphemy to be claiming the power to forgive sins. (Mark 2:5-7) and also a man making himself God. (John 10:30-33) We will now see how the Papacy fulfils this in the following quotes;

Making himself God.
“The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God...the Pope is as it were the vicar of God on earth...Chief king of kings, having plentitude of power.” Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica Juridiea Moralis Theoloogica, by Lucii Ferraris.

“All names which in the scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” On the Authority of Councils, 1619 ed., book 2, Ch 17.

“We hold upon this earth the place of God almighty.” The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, pg 304.

“But the supreme teacher in the church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of the will to the church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” Ibid.

Claiming to forgive sins.
“And God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest and either not to pardon or pardon, according as they refuse to give absolution, provided the penitent is capable of it.” Duties and Dignities of the Priest, by Ligouri, pg 27.

“Were the Redeemer to descend into a church, and sit in a confessional to administer the sacrament of penance, and a priest to sit in a confessional, Jesus would say over each penitent, ‘ego te absolvo”, the priest would likewise say over each of his penitents, ‘ego te absolvo’, and the penitents of each would be equally absolved.” Ibid., pg 34.

“The priest does not only declare that the sinner is forgiven, but he really forgives him...so great is the power of the priest, that the judgments of heaven itself are subject to his decision.” The Catholic Priest, by Michael Meuller, Kreuzer Bros., 1876.

Think to change times and laws. It is interesting to note that the Bible says that he thinks to do this, for the reality is that he cannot actually do it. But this is also true of the Papacy as we will see by the following quotes:

“The pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. He can pronounce sentences and judgments in contradiction to the rights of nations, to the law of God and man.” Decretalia de translat. Ep Cop. Cap.

“The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.” The Catholic Mirror, Sept 23 1893.

“You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (Catholics) never sanctify.” James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, pg 111.

“Question : What Bible authority is there for changing the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week? Who gave the Pope the authority to change a command of God?”
“Answer : If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing the Saturday with the Jew. But Catholics learn what to believe and do from the divine, infallible authority established by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church...Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Church?” Question Box, by Conway, 1903 edition, pgs 254-255.

“Question : Which is the Sabbath day?”
“Answer : Saturday is the Sabbath day.”
“Question : Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?”
“Answer : We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (336 A.D.), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, Second Edition, 1910, pg 50.

It is interesting to note that the Catholic Church has removed the second Commandment from her doctrinal books and catechisms, because it condemns the worship of images. Thus they split the tenth Commandment into two so as to still have ten Commandments. See change to the Commandments.

Wear out the saints of the Most High. The Papacy is well known for its persecution of so called heretics. Pope Gregory XIII executed a plot in which he killed 70,000 in one day on St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in France, 24th August 1572. In July 1209, 60,000 Albigenses slaughtered at Beziers. On the 24th April 1655, 18,000 Waldenses were killed. 1,000,000 Waldenses perished in France. 900,000 orthodox Christians were slain in less than thirty years after the institution of the order of the Jesuits. The inquisition destroyed, by various tortures, 150,000 within thirty years.

“...it is estimated by careful historians that more than fifty millions of the human family have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by Popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of Popery.” History of Romanism, Dr J Dowling pgs 541-542.

“The Catholic Church...loudly proclaims that she has a horror of blood. Nevertheless when confronted by heresy she...has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture. She creates tribunals like those of the inquisition...encourages a crusade or a religious war...especially did she act thus in the sixteenth century with regards to Protestants...she lit in Italy the Low Countries and above all in Spain the funeral fires of the inquisition. In France...and in England...she tortured the heretics whilst both in France and Germany...she encouraged and aided, the religious wars. No one will deny that we have a great scandal to our contemporaries...Indeed even among our friends and our brothers we find those who dare not look this problem in the face. They ask permission from the church to ignore or even deny all those acts and institutions of the past which have made orthodoxy compulsory.” The Catholic Church, the Renaissance and Protestantism, Professor Alfred Baudrillart, London, 1908 pgs 182-184. (He was rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris and later was made a Cardinal).

Even so, the Papacy still justifies her position:
“...that the church of Rome possesses the supremacy of both powers, the spiritual and the temporal, that she has the right to employ both swords in the extirpation of heresy; that in the exercise of this right she has never exceeded by a hairs breadth her just prerogatives and that what she has done aforetime she may do in time to come as often as occasion shall require and opportunity may serve.” Encyclical Quanta Cura (Syllabus of Errors) 1864, Pope Pius IX.

As we have seen, the Papacy rose to full supremacy in 538 A.D., identifying mark number 4, and it came to its end exactly 1260 years later in 1798 A.D. when Napoleon’s General Berthier, under orders from the French ruler, marched into Rome and took Pope Pius VI prisoner thus taking from the Vatican it’s political or temporal power.

“The Papacy was extinct: not a vestige of its existence remained and among all the Roman Catholic powers not a finger was stirred in its defence. The eternal city no longer had prince or pontiff; its bishop was a dying captive in foreign lands, and the decree was already announced that no successor would be allowed in his place.” The Fall of the Western Empire, George Trevor, pg 440.

The Papacy had received its deadly wound, but this wound was to be healed. (Revelation 13:3)

Daniel 7:27 “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

In verse 14 we see the kingdom being given to Christ, but here it is given to the saints of the Most High. How can this be?

In Romans 8:14-17, it tells us that if we are being led by the Spirit of God we are the sons of God and adopted into the family of God. Thus we have become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. Jesus has received a kingdom which is an everlasting one, thus we being joint-heirs with Him also receive this kingdom. What a promise!

The Lord will reign supreme in the end.

Daniel 7:28 “Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.”

Daniel is still troubled by the enormity of what he has seen, but keeps the matter in his heart. He has much more to see before this book is over.
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« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2010, 09:49:39 AM »

  I love ya orange cat but I have to disagree with this. There are only four great world powers in bible prophecy. See Dan chapter 2.

Thank you very much for your reply.
I really would like to be wrong !

However, I can give some food for thought, by asking a very difficult question. It is a question that all the mainstream interpretations of Bible Prophecy fail to answer to any satisfaction.

"Why is America missing from the book of Revelations ?"

How can this be so ?

Logic should dictate that we who are interested in Bible Prophecy have missed some sort of vital clue. Which is why I continually search for better answers. I am also extremely cautious of anything that simplistically dumps blame on the Catholic Church by Protestants, but that is another story, and a divide and conquer false paradim.

Does the book of Revelations contain mistakes as it fails to mention America ?
Or way more likely, have we miss interpreted some of it because of our weakness ?

I keep an open mind and I really do appreciate thoughtfull critical replies.

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« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2010, 09:55:25 AM »

Thank you very much for your reply.
I really would like to be wrong !

However, I can give some food for thought, by asking a very difficult question. It is a question that all the mainstream interpretations of Bible Prophecy fail to answer to any satisfaction.

"Why is America missing from the book of Revelations ?"

How can this be so ?

Logic should dictate that we who are interested in Bible Prophecy have missed some sort of vital clue. Which is why I continually search for better answers. I am also extremely cautious of anything that simplistically dumps blame on the Catholic Church by Protestants, but that is another story, and a divide and conquer false paradim.

Does the book of Revelations contain mistakes as it fails to mention America ?
Or way more likely, have we miss interpreted some of it because of our weakness ?

I keep an open mind and I really do appreciate thoughtfull critical replies.



 Excellent points, america is not missing. America is part of this beast, the one with power to bring fire from the sky...

11] And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
[12] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

MEET THE NEW BOSS...SAME AS THE OLD BOSS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE

15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
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« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2010, 10:43:05 AM »

Well, Sir, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it even though I don't agree with it.  You have no idea what people do with their time and only God can judge us.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Yes , as long as we can agree that all we have is personal perceptions to inform us , meaning neither of us truly know what God is beyond the feeble second descriptions of flawed men. What we might know of God comes from personal experience , which can not be quantified or cheapened by words. As it is with LOVE , which can only feebly be described to one who has no experience with it , so too it is with God.
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« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2010, 10:55:55 AM »

Yes , as long as we can agree that all we have is personal perceptions to inform us , meaning neither of us truly know what God is beyond the feeble second descriptions of flawed men. What we might know of God comes from personal experience , which can not be quantified or cheapened by words. As it is with LOVE , which can only feebly be described to one who has no experience with it , so too it is with God.

Well put! I don't think it possible for us to even begin to comprehend the nature of an omnipresent "God" let alone this Gods drives or motivations. For someone to say that they understand the nature their "creator" is the height of arrogance and ignorance. We do not have universal understanding nor could we.

God is the experience and not separate from it.
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« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2010, 10:58:17 AM »

Well put! I don't think it possible for us to even begin to comprehend the nature of an omnipresent "God" let alone this Gods drives or motivations. For someone to say that they understand the nature their "creator" is the height of arrogance and ignorance. We do not have universal understanding nor could we.

God is the experience and not separate from it.

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Freeski
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« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2010, 11:00:57 AM »

Yes , as long as we can agree that all we have is personal perceptions to inform us , meaning neither of us truly know what God is beyond the feeble second descriptions of flawed men. What we might know of God comes from personal experience , which can not be quantified or cheapened by words. As it is with LOVE , which can only feebly be described to one who has no experience with it , so too it is with God.

Nicely said indeed!
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« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2010, 07:57:39 PM »

@James Redford – I find your information very compelling and have some questions for you.

Is there any information, based off of known laws of physics that can either confirm or deny the existence of:

--a supernatural realm or realms normally unable to be perceived via the human 5 senses

--intelligent or self aware entities within these realms

--immortality of such entities

Thanks for explaining the Omega Point and showing the comparison to traditional Christian theology.  It’s the first time I’d ever seen these ideas.

There are a number of video clips at the below link of Prof. Frank J. Tipler interviewed by PBS show Closer to Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn which should answer some of your questions:

"Tipler, Frank," Closer to Truth (Public Broadcasting Service [PBS]) http://www.closertotruth.com/participant/Frank-Tipler/109

The clip "Is the Cosmos a Computer? (Frank Tipler)" stops at about 1:32 min:sec into it (about 2/5 the way into it). One should be able to nudge the position slider to the right a little bit each time until it starts playing again.
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Author of "Jesus Is an Anarchist", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Dec. 4, 2011 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2001) http://ssrn.com/abstract=1337761

Theophysics (a website with information on Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point Theory) http://theophysics.host56.com http://theophysics.ifastnet.com
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« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2010, 08:04:52 PM »

Awesome release from Jefferson’s own personal collection… this is his book and it hasn’t been seen in a long time!

The fireworks start on actual page 23 (book page 25)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27274537/A-Full-Exposition-of-the-Clintonian-Faction-And-the-Society-of-the-Columbian-Illuminati-by-John-Wood-1802
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« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2010, 08:55:05 AM »

There are a number of video clips at the below link of Prof. Frank J. Tipler interviewed by PBS show Closer to Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn which should answer some of your questions:

"Tipler, Frank," Closer to Truth (Public Broadcasting Service [PBS]) http://www.closertotruth.com/participant/Frank-Tipler/109

The clip "Is the Cosmos a Computer? (Frank Tipler)" stops at about 1:32 min:sec into it (about 2/5 the way into it). One should be able to nudge the position slider to the right a little bit each time until it starts playing again.

Excellent!  Thank you, sir.  Will check it out.
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