Attention both libertarians and progressives: Obamacare is NOT single-payer!

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Offline Geolibertarian

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Dems Push Pelosi for Single-Payer Health Care After AHCA Fails (People said back as they passed Obamacare that they always wanted single payer and created a disaster so the could later get just that.)

People also said that Obamacare was written by private insurance companies in order to inflate their already astronomical profits.

Now we're supposed to believe that the real reason they wrote it was to compel the government to institute a health care system that, by its very nature, eliminates the need for private health insurance?

In other words, we're actually supposed to believe that these insurance companies are part of an evil conspiracy to put themselves out of business?

That is so ridiculous on its face that I'm amazed so many people accept it as divine gospel without even questioning it.

Has it occurred to you that Wall Street Democrats were merely telling their gullible supporters what they wanted to hear when they said Obamacare was a step "towards" single-payer, lest millions of the moderate leftists who supported single-payer figured out (before Obamacare had a chance to pass) that it was actually a step in the opposite direction -- and consequently embarrass Obama by attacking him politically from his left?
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline jofortruth

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Yeah, its hard to tell what is true when you have such lowlife liars in DC and in the media. Then add to that how the insane globalists play both sides on every issue and the whole thing is insane!

I say purge them all and start over, and start putting the ringleaders in prison. Sick of liars, deceivers, babies, punks, spineless followers, ignoramuses who claim to be experts and leaders. You are all a joke!

 >:(

Don't believe me. Look it up yourself!

Offline Satyagraha

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Agreed! Purge away.
And  the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, 
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,  ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:40

Offline jofortruth

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PELOSI CLASHES WITH CONSTITUENTS: ‘DO YOU WANT TO LISTEN OR JUST SPEAK?’

https://www.infowars.com/pelosi-clashes-with-constituents-do-you-want-to-listen-or-just-speak/


Quote
Appearing with Congresswoman Jackie Speier, Pelosi was confronted by activists with Indivisible, a group that has been turning out left-wing citizens largely at Republican town hall meetings across the country.

---

When Pelosi told the group that she has supported a single-payer health scheme for 30 years, shouts and jeers erupted.
Don't believe me. Look it up yourself!

Offline Geolibertarian

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PELOSI CLASHES WITH CONSTITUENTS: ‘DO YOU WANT TO LISTEN OR JUST SPEAK?’

Of course. They figured out she's a puppet of Wall Street just like Obama and Hillary, and that Obamacare was designed not to remove private insurance companies from the health care equation (as single payer would do), but to further entrench them.

As I stated previously, Mike Rivero and Jeff Rense -- both of whom supported Donald Trump for the entire 2016 campaign season -- openly promote single-payer health insurance as being far preferable to Obamacare and to the price-gouging system we had immediately prior to Obamacare.

Does that mean we're supposed to arrogantly and mindlessly accuse both of those gentlemen of being freedom-hating "socialists" who (a) live in their "mom's basement" and (b) want America to suffer the same economic fate as Venezuela?

Whatever happened to not being intellectual slaves to the microscopic confines of binary, either/or "paradigms"?
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline TahoeBlue

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Just a thought ... Who would want to insure people that the MIC govt was purposely giving expensive  and terrible terminal illnesses ?
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline Geolibertarian

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House GOP health plan is a re-branded and far meaner version of the ACA
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2017, 04:47:51 AM »
I'm glad the so-called American Health Care Act failed to pass, and here's why...

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2017/march/doctors-group-house-gop-health-plan-is-a-re-branded-and-far-meaner-version-of-the-ac

Doctors group: House GOP health plan is a re-branded and far meaner version of the ACA

The ‘American Health Care Act’ perpetuates the basic structure of the Affordable Care Act, including the subsidization of the private health insurance industry, while cutting benefits to the poor and middle class, and giving hundreds of billions in tax breaks to the rich

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, March 8, 2017

Physicians for a National Health Program decries the recently released Republican Obamacare replacement bill, the “American Health Care Act” (AHCA). That plan would constitute a major backward step in health policy, compounding the problems of uninsurance and underinsurance while handing over hundreds of billions of dollars to the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans.

Proposed as a replacement of the Affordable Care Act (ACA), the AHCA would maintain its basic structure. The bill would:

• Continue to channel billions of taxpayer dollars through wasteful private insurers;
   
• Sharply reduce the ACA’s subsidies (or “tax credits”) available to lower-income persons, particularly older adults, to purchase coverage;

• End the ACA’s cost-sharing subsidies for copayments and deductibles, increasing the cost of care for those with chronic medical conditions;
     
• Replace the ACA’s “individual mandate” penalty on the uninsured with a 30 percent surcharge on insurance premiums for those who experienced a lapse in insurance coverage;

• Slash federal funding for the Medicaid expansion beginning in 2020, and move towards a “per capita” cap on Medicaid spending that would squeeze state Medicaid budgets and push millions of enrollees out of the program;

• Increase the tax-favored status of Health Savings Accounts, which mostly benefit people in high income brackets;

• Reduce taxes on pharmaceutical, medical device and health insurance companies;

• Offer tax reductions totaling $274.6 billion over 10 years to the wealthiest 2 percent of Americans.

These and other provisions would take the nation in the wrong direction. Even with the ACA in place, 29 million remained uninsured in 2015; the ACHA would only push that number higher. And today, even many Americans with coverage face bankrupting medical bills for copayments, deductibles and uncovered services. By lowering the standards of private insurance plans and ending cost sharing subsidies, the ACHA would only intensify the problem of “underinsurance.”

The AHCA would replace the ACA with a worse, more regressive version of the original bill. This is not what Americans want or need. PNHP instead urges Congress to replace the ACA with a single-payer national health care program. Unlike the ACA or the AHCA, single-payer, Medicare for All reform could effectively control costs while creating a right to high-quality health care for everyone in America.

A more detailed, point-by-point summary of the contents of the GOP House bill, prepared by Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein, is available here.

Physicians for a National Health Program (www.pnhp.org) is a nonprofit research and education organization of more than 20,000 doctors who support a single-payer national health program. It was founded in 1986.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline notravelingfellows

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Berthed and stamped No. *************

Offline EvadingGrid

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Want to know a BiG Secret ?

Do some easy research, look for figures for HealthCare as a percentage of GDP - and Life Expectancy for countries



“Hey, I’m a nationalist and a globalist”
-- Donald Trump

Article : "A Limited Hangout Operation ?"

Offline notravelingfellows

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Want to know a BiG Secret ?

Do some easy research, look for figures for HealthCare as a percentage of GDP - and Life Expectancy for countries

 8)
Berthed and stamped No. *************

Offline Geolibertarian

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Want to know a BiG Secret ?

Do some easy research, look for figures for HealthCare as a percentage of GDP - and Life Expectancy for countries

Why do research when one can simply wax hysterical about Venezuela?

Didn't you know that Canada is a communist hell-hole just like Venezuela is?

I was surprised, too, but the person who told me this was yelling, screaming and frothing at the mouth when he said it, so it must be true.

I also learned from him that the more than 20,000 doctors who make up Physicians for a National Health Program are all a bunch of "losers" who live in (you guessed it) "their mom's basement."
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline EvadingGrid

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When some body has actually looked at the figures, let me know.

I'm with Pontius Pilate on this one

* cat  washes paws

“Hey, I’m a nationalist and a globalist”
-- Donald Trump

Article : "A Limited Hangout Operation ?"

Offline EvadingGrid

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Want to know a BiG Secret ?

Do some easy research, look for figures for HealthCare as a percentage of GDP - and Life Expectancy for Countries


“Hey, I’m a nationalist and a globalist”
-- Donald Trump

Article : "A Limited Hangout Operation ?"

Offline Geolibertarian

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Well, well, isn't this just special?
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2017, 02:26:24 PM »
Medicare is little more than Medicaid for old people. Yet right-wing Republicans are literally obsessed with gutting the latter while winking and looking the other way at the former. Why is that? Not because they love "freedom" and "Americana" so much, nor because Medicare is any less of a transfer payment (i.e. "redistribution of wealth") than Medicaid is, but merely because "seniors" are a much more powerful voting bloc than poor people are. The hypocrisy that surrounds this issue never ceases to amaze me.

----------------------------------------------

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/us/politics/senate-health-care-bill.html

Senate Health Care Bill Includes Deep Cuts to Medicaid

By ROBERT PEAR and THOMAS KAPLAN
The New York Times
June 22, 2017

WASHINGTON — Senate Republicans, who have promised a repeal of the Affordable Care Act for seven years, took a major step on Thursday toward that goal, unveiling a bill to cut Medicaid deeply and end the health law’s mandate that most Americans have health insurance.

The 142-page bill would create a new system of federal tax credits to help people buy health insurance, while offering states the ability to drop many of the benefits required by the Affordable Care Act, like maternity care, emergency services and mental health treatment.

The Senate bill — once promised as a top-to-bottom revamp of the health bill passed by the House last month — instead maintains its structure, with modest adjustments. The Senate version is, in some respects, more moderate than the House bill, offering more financial assistance to some lower-income people to help them defray the rapidly rising cost of private health insurance.

But the Senate measure, like the House bill, would phase out the extra money that the federal government has provided to states as an incentive to expand eligibility for Medicaid. And like the House measure, it would put the entire Medicaid program on a budget, ending the open-ended entitlement that now exists.

[Continued...]

----------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, Israel's war machine continues to receive billions in U.S. taxpayer-financed welfare (er, beg pardon, "aid") every single year:

https://www.infowars.com/why-are-we-sending-38-billion-to-rich-and-powerful-israel/



If the millions of working-aged Americans who live below the poverty line are supposed to rely upon "charity" when it comes to health care, then why isn't the Israeli government supposed to rely upon "charity" when it comes to weapons of war?
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline chris jones

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 Rand Paul took a stand on this, AGAINST IT...
 I have had my beefs with this man but he is correct on this.

Offline TahoeBlue

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Rand Paul took a stand on this, AGAINST IT...
 I have had my beefs with this man but he is correct on this.

There is a MIC - Medical Industrial Complex .. and that includes the Insurance complex ( which is connected to the banks ( ie  and the FED) . This is the hidden taxation on the country ... Where does the money go ? Offshore most likely ... 

I don't know about a 1 dollar a day ( 300 million people only 300 million dollars ? no . So how many billion dollars for Healthcare?

150 billion ? thats five dollars a day !!!!  that's $1,825 a year !!!

 


http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/339123-rand-paul-insurance-should-be-available-for-1-a-day
Rand Paul: Insurance should be available for $1 a day

 By Max Greenwood  - 06/23/17 09:10 AM EDT
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline TahoeBlue

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in reference to the previous post ... here something completely insane ...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2015/01/04/u-s-healthcare-spending-on-track-to-hit-10000-per-person-this-year/#77d441036dea
U.S. Healthcare Spending On Track To Hit $10,000 Per Person This Year
Jan 4, 2015

There's never a shortage of major healthcare policy events in any given calendar year ‒ and 2015 will be no exception. Here's a short list of some that are pending and noteworthy ‒ with a few predictions.

First up isn't a prediction as much as a major milestone that's reflective of escalating healthcare costs.

According to CMS (here) our National Healthcare Expenditure (NHE) is projected to hit $3.207 trillion this year.

The U.S. Population is currently hovering at around 320 million, so 2015 looks to be the first year healthcare spending will reach $10,000 per person. We may be "bending the cost growth curve," but the per capita amount continues to grow.

Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline chris jones

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Tahoe... now that is a fine comparison-            MIC...................Ya got that right, the medical industrial complex.
Bigpharma for another has its finger in this pie as well, though the MSM doesn`t mention this either.
TID BIT.
Celebrex 100 mg
Consumer price (100 tablets): $130.27
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.60
Percent markup: 21,712%
 
Claritin 10 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $215.17
Cost of general active ingredients: $0.71
Percent markup: 30,306%
 
Keflex 250 mg
Consumer Price (100 tablets): $157.39
Cost of general active ingredients: $1.88
Percent markup: 8,372%

I get it, that doesn`t include the production costs, nor research, OK so add on the 100% as to the ingrediant costs,
is that fair , or go as high as a 200%  or 300% over the costs of product..
  Keflex for example is $157.39 per 100, ingrediants costs are $1.88, cost at a 300% markup for production & distribution with a 400% markup would be about 8 or 9 bucks vs $157.00.
  Hell bells, they could go as up to a 500% to 700% markup and we would get a decent price.
  Whats your take, what am I missing here.?  The AMA & FDA, do they truly work for the people.

Offline TahoeBlue

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yes the numbers are staggering ,,, It is a national ripoff of the highest order ...
Many of these corps are foreign so the profits go off shore ... continually draining the country . And the feds do nothing and say nothing.
So it was interesting what Rand Paul said , but it was so extreme , no one will take him seriously.
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline egypt

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People would be so shocked at the really great, affordable health care they would recieve if insurance didn't run the show.  It would be the best health care in the world -- again.

So go Rand Paul, go!  Repeal.  Repeal.  Do not replace.

love, e

Offline TahoeBlue

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Unfortunately .... however bad the bill is .... if the replicants don't pass this pile of ,,,,,, then there will be a loss of momentum ...
and the swamp will be winning ...  It just shows you how screwed up the gop really is ... they ought to rename themselves  the RINO Party ...
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5

Offline Geolibertarian

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If single-payer health insurance (aka Medicare-for-all)  is -- as we're so often instructed to believe -- part of an evil communist conspiracy to turn America into "Venezuela," then why are so many Democratic politicians hostile to it?

-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7fVOSgh1eI (Democratic Leader Caught Bragging About Killing Single Payer)

-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzjFfOFnDwg (Democratic Leader Literally Squirms When Asked About Single Payer)

-- http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/march/obama_to_single_paye.php

Or are we not supposed to ask that question in the first place, lest the controlled-opposition debate on this issue be seen for what it is?
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline EvadingGrid

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Just a couple of little facts

The amount of money spent has no correlation to life expectancy.
Example USA sending v GB spending as a % of GDP.

Life expectancy, and number of doctors per patient is more or less identical in Great Britain as the USA.

Socialist Medicine is superior to Capitalist Insurance Medicine, the figs show that....

Now, just because you've been told otherwise, don't flame me for telling you.


They Lied.
The all lied.
Then the lied some more.




“Hey, I’m a nationalist and a globalist”
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Article : "A Limited Hangout Operation ?"

Offline chris jones

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Observation:staticis com. total number of working class USA,
Apr 2017: 205,354,000 (+ more)  What`s you take on this?
Updated: May 24, 2017

For 3 dollars per day each worker would pay:this would be 615,000,000 million per day.
Per month the total would be/  $1,845,000,0000 close to 2 billion.
per year the total aproxximate                       ..$55,450,000,000 fifty five Billion 450,million.
[/u]
For the price of a beer each day, 3 bucks for every working citizen....about $ 90 a month would come out to about $50.450,000,000.. a year...

Thats a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$,sure there are expensive treatments, then there are treatments, visits etc that are basically bullShit to suck up the bucks, whatever the actual case may be can this be a starting point. I have tried to find the daily, monthy, yearly medical expenses USA,,ZIP, nothing I can dig up.
  My question is necessary medical treatmment yearly is WHAT -USA, is it is over 55,5 billion a year.
Big pharma pricing is integral in all of this along with the AMA, Ins co. costs etc. I`m no rocket scientist but this seems to me it should be looked into.
 Does each state use over a billion  a month on health care. ANYBODY know the
                                                                                                                           deal????????????????????
                     I wish I didn`t smell a rat in the medical Industrial complex.


Offline Geolibertarian

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Health researchers: Graham-Cassidy bill would increase deaths by 41,600 annually
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2017, 12:14:00 AM »
Obamacare is a corporate fascist healthcare scheme. I've been saying that for over eight years in this forum. However, what Republicans laughingly call "free market" healthcare is in fact corporate fascism on steroids.

Sorry, but the "not perfect, but..." excuse isn't going to work this time, nor will theatrical red herrings about "Venezuela!"

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2017/september/health-researchers-graham-cassidy-bill-would-increase-deaths-by-41600-annually

Health researchers: Graham-Cassidy bill would increase deaths by 41,600 annually

Doctors dub Graham-Cassidy “The Undertaker Full Employment Act”

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, September 22, 2017
Contact: Clare Fauke, communications specialist, 312-782-6006, clare@pnhp.org

Physicians and public health researchers Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein estimate that implementation of the proposed Graham-Cassidy legislation would push an additional 32 million Americans off their health insurance over the next decade, resulting in 41,600 additional deaths in 2027.
 
Since the Congressional Budget Office could not conduct a timely analysis of the bill before its expected vote, the researchers—who have studied the effects of insurance coverage on health outcomes—analyzed the bill’s impact on insurance coverage and mortality.
 
"The Graham-Cassidy bill—what we’re calling ‘The Undertaker Full Employment Act’—would cut health coverage by 14 million Americans in 2020, rising to at least 32 million in 2027,” said Dr. Woolhandler, an internist in the South Bronx, Distinguished Professor of Public Health at the City University of New York at Hunter College (CUNY) and lecturer in medicine at Harvard. “That means 18,200 extra deaths in the first year, climbing to 41,600 annually within a decade.”
 
Drs. Woolhandler and Himmelstein studied CBO projections of previous GOP “repeal and replace” bills, and then extrapolated how many individuals would lose coverage per $1 billion in health spending cuts in the Graham-Cassidy bill between 2020 and 2027.

From there, the researchers projected the number of associated deaths based on their recent study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, “The Relationship of Health Insurance and Mortality: Is Lack of Insurance Deadly?” The study concludes that for every 769 people who lose health coverage, one person will suffer preventable death. Health insurance prevents deaths in part by improving the diagnosis and treatment of high blood pressure; uninsured and under-insured Americans with hypertension are known to be less likely to have their blood pressure under control. Lack of coverage also increases death rates in several other conditions, including breast cancer and major trauma.
 
“We became doctors to save lives,” said Carol Paris, M.D., president of Physicians for a National Health Program. “As physicians, we cannot be silent while Congress plays political games with the lives of our patients.”

The Graham-Cassidy bill eliminates insurance subsidies provided through the Affordable Care Act to about 8 million Americans, and makes substantial cuts to state Medicaid programs that today insure more than 70 million Americans. The bill also allows insurers to charge more for patients with pre-existing conditions who would likely be priced out of the insurance market altogether.

Dr. Paris notes that instead of cutting coverage to millions of Americans, Congress should cut the number of uninsured to zero through a universal, single-payer health plan like Rep. John Conyers’  H.R. 676, the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act or Sen. Bernie Sanders’ S. 1824, The Medicare for All Act of 2017.

Dr. Steffie Woolhandler is an internist in the South Bronx, Distinguished Professor of Public Health at the City University of New York at Hunter College (CUNY) and lecturer in medicine at Harvard. Dr. David Himmelstein is also an internist, Distinguished Professor at CUNY and lecturer at Harvard. They are co-founders of Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP). Dr. Carol Paris is a retired psychiatrist and president of PNHP, a nonprofit research and educational organization of more than 21,000 doctors and health professionals who support a single-payer national health program. It was founded in 1986.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Attention both libertarians and progressives: Obamacare is NOT single-payer!
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2017, 12:38:23 AM »
Will the criminal price-gouging and overbilling that hospitals routinely engage in -- and which routinely force people to declare personal bankruptcy -- magically go away (or even mildly decrease) when the corporate fascist healthcare scheme known as Obamacare is replaced by the mega-corporate fascist system that Republicans advocate as a "free market" alternative?

If you answered "yes" to that question, then I have a bridge to sell you.

http://www.healthsynergyrx.com/20-ways-hospitals-overcharge-patients.html

20 Ways Hospitals Overcharge Patients

First edited and published by the Hospital Accountability Project of the Service Employees International Union. This project is a health care justice initiative of the Service Employees International Union. SEIU, America’s largest health care union, aims to make quality health care more accessible and affordable for all.
Look Before You Pay

Hospitals are an essential public service. Every day hundreds of thousands of Americans go to hospitals for everything from life-sustaining minor surgeries, to life-changing child births, to life-saving emergency treatment. We need hospitals. We are the grateful recipients of their services. We are also, eventually, recipients of bills for their services.

Those bills are the topic of this article. Americans spend more on health care than any other people in the world. Ten percent of our gross national product goes into health care, the fastest growing industry in the nation. And every year we spend more; for the past 20 years health care costs have risen at twice the inflation rate. Dramatic increases in hospital charges are a major contributor to those rising costs.

Hospital bills are extremely problematic—and not just because they are high and can be very difficult to understand. They are problematic because they are, most of the time, wrong. The U.S. General Accounting Office estimates that 99 percent of bills from hospitals have overcharges. (New York Times, Jan. 27, 1993). The insurance industry, which hires private audit companies to review bills for accuracy, has also found a high level of hospital billing errors. The largest audit company used by insurers, Intracorp, estimates that 80-90% of hospital bills contain errors. When these audits are done, they generally result in striking reductions of the hospital bills.

This article explains how hospitals overcharge. While most of the information presented here has been used by the Legal Assistance Foundation to argue against illegitimate hospital charges against uninsured patients, all patients have grounds to fight these charges. All health care consumers should be aware of this information.

This article was adapted from a much longer manual designed for attorneys who are representing clients who have been sued by hospitals. If you are being sued by a hospital for unpaid medical bills, you should consult with an attorney. In almost every case where patients fight back in the courts, charges are reduced or eliminated. Of the 184 hospital debt cases handled by the Legal Assistance Foundation between 1983 and 2001, for example, 128 (or 70 percent) had their debts completely eliminated. Of the remainder, all but one had their charges dramatically reduced.

But even if you, or your insurance company, can pay the bill, you shouldn’t be paying for services that the hospital has no business billing you for. Nor should you be paying for services that are overpriced.

The burden is on the hospital to prove that services are reasonably priced. Most hospitals provide services without a written contract or even verbal agreement. Illinois law makes it clear that under these circumstances, there is an agreement to pay a “reasonable price” for the services delivered. Specifically, the hospital must establish the following:

* The delivery of each good and service
* The method of pricing each good and service
* The reasonable value of each good and service

This is a tough task for hospitals because when held up to scrutiny, nearly all hospital bills contain errors. And the mistakes usually favor the hospital and overcharge you, the patient.

To check for the errors listed in this article, you need more information than just the hospital bill. As is aptly observed in Take This Book to the Hospital With You, “Translating the cuneiform carvings on the Rosetta stone was a lot easier than deciphering a hospital bill”. Besides that, your bill doesn’t tell the whole story.

You need to obtain the following from the hospital, which you absolutely have a legal right to do:

* An itemized bill
* Your medical record
* Your pharmacy ledger or record (an itemized list of all of the drugs you were provided)

With these documents, you can check for some of the discrepancies listed in this article. Health care is a service that you purchase, whether directly with cash or through your insurance. Those who provide that service must be accountable to you, the consumer. This article is designed to help you achieve that accountability.

The Top 20 Ways Hospitals Overcharge Patients:

1. Billing for Services not Rendered

You can be billed for many procedures that are never actually performed. This is where it is important to have all the medical and pharmaceutical records and itemized bills from the hospital. For example, the medical records may show results of six blood tests while you are being charged for nine.

Any billed procedure that is not reflected in the medical records can be challenged. Examine the bill for charges that make no sense, such as a charge for circumcision of a newborn baby girl. Look over the procedures listed and make sure they were all actually performed. For example, if you are charged $300 for a blood transfusion, did you actually receive this treatment?

2. Duplicate Billings

A frequent error is a duplicated billing in which you are billed twice for a service rendered but once. A slip of a finger on the computer keyboard can cause this problem.

3. Shoddy Testing

You shouldn’t have to pay for an X-ray that was botched. If two chest X-rays were administered in two days, find out if the second X-ray was needed because the hospital erred in the first test.

4. Phantom Charges

Some hospitals automatically bill for certain items ordinarily associated with particular services. Their computer program may automatically impose a wide variety of charges for a particular procedure. So if you are charged for a childbirth, for example, there should be no charges for sedation unless you actually received the sedative drugs.

5. Quantity Errors

Have you been charged for 200 facemasks rather than two? Again, a slip of a finger on a keyboard could cause such an error. A frequent error of hospitals occurs with respect to intravenous solutions that are administered on the day of admission. The hospital computer will bill you for a full day’s worth of IV solutions—for example, $189 for an IV ampicillin antibiotic solution. That is the daily rate. But if you are admitted late in the day, you may only receive four hours worth of solution and you should not have to pay for a full day’s rate. There may be several hundred dollars worth of IV solutions that the hospital did not actually provide.

Hospitals often charge patients for the use of operating rooms on an hourly basis. If there is a billing for eight hours in the operating room, verify this in the medical records.

6. “Unbundling” Related Charges

Proper billing procedures (and Medicare law) require the hospital to “bundle” related charges for a particular medical procedure. For example, the charge for removing an appendix will include the operating room, the operating utensils, and all other goods and services normally related to this operation. “Unbundling” occurs where the hospital separates some of the charges that should be included in the “global” charge for the appendectomy, thus duplicating some of the charges. For example, a bill for an appendectomy may wrongly include separate charges for the pre-operative physical, such as drawing blood, cardiogram, and interpretation of the cardiogram.

7. Excessive Mark-ups

When reviewing your itemized bill, look for specific charges that seem vague or too high, such as $75 for a laxative, $30 for a “thermal therapy kit” (plastic bag of ice cubes), $10 for a “urinal” (plastic cup) or $8 for a Coca Cola. Outrageous mark-ups are frequent and have been well documented. A December 1994 article in Money Magazine, for example, offered this illustration: “Dr. James is busy replacing a 64-year-old knee. He traces a line on her leg with a disposable skin-marking pen that costs the hospital less than $1, then tosses it aside for my sake with a flippant ’28 bucks’. That’s what the insurer will be billed for it. The plastic sheet on her leg: 59 bucks. Cost: $8. It’s a racket”.

Drug charges, in particular, are the target of excessive mark-ups. Modern Maturity, in its May/June 2001 issue, reported that “markups of 200 to 400 percent are common, but some drugs and small items are marked up as much as 5000 percent. A hospital can buy a Cepacol throat lozenge wholesale for 4.5 cents, then turn around and bill you $2.25 or more per lozenge”. In the same article it is reported that a hospital charged a patient nearly $14,000 for a used pacemaker which the hospital purchased for $6,700.

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline Geolibertarian

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Re: Attention both libertarians and progressives: Obamacare is NOT single-payer!
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2017, 01:04:54 AM »
If you commit the de facto crime of getting sick or injured in the GOP's corporate fascist "free market" utopia, and are consequently price-gouged into bankruptcy, not to worry: you'll still be "free" to beg and grovel for "charity." You're not against "freedom," are you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/why-some-hospitals-can-get-away-with-price-gouging-patients-study-finds/2015/06/08/b7f5118c-0aeb-11e5-9e39-0db921c47b93_story.html?utm_term=.c9611364d65a

50 hospitals charge uninsured more than 10 times cost of care, study finds

By Lena H. Sun
The Washington Post
June 8, 2015

Fifty hospitals in the United States are charging uninsured consumers more than 10 times the actual cost of patient care, according to research published Monday.

All but one of the facilities are owned by for-profit entities and the largest number of hospitals — 20 — are in Florida. For the most part, researchers said, the hospitals with the highest markups are not in pricey neighborhoods or big cities, where the market might explain the higher prices.

Topping the list is North Okaloosa Medical Center, a 110-bed facility in the Florida Panhandle about an hour outside of Pensacola. Uninsured patients are charged 12.6 times the actual cost of patient care.

Community Health Systems operates 25 of the hospitals on the list. Hospital Corporation of America operates 14 others.

They are price-gouging because they can,” said Gerard Anderson, a professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, co-author of the study in Health Affairs. “They are marking up the prices because no one is telling them they can’t.”

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline EvadingGrid

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Instead of endless circular arguments, how about looking at the big picture figures ?

If you think Free Markets are the answer to life the universe and everything DO NOT LOOK.

List of countries by life expectancy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

List of countries by total health expenditure per capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita
“Hey, I’m a nationalist and a globalist”
-- Donald Trump

Article : "A Limited Hangout Operation ?"

Offline jofortruth

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Dems Push Pelosi for Single-Payer Health Care After AHCA Fails (People said back when they passed Obamacare that they always wanted single payer and created a disaster so they could later get just that.)

http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/03/26/dems-push-pelosi-single-payer-health-care-ahca-fails/


----
Sen. Reid: Obamacare ‘Absolutely’ A Step Toward A Single-Payer System

https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/sen-reid-obamacare-absolutely-a-step-toward-a-single-payer-system/

David J powell insurance expert guest on Dr Dave Janda Oct 15, 2017 talks about Obamacare and Trump recent good actions. He also said "Obamacare original plan was to destroy the insurance industry then go to  a single payer plan". He also said "Trump scrapping subsidies is a good thing."

https://www.davejanda.com/guest/david-powell/?episode=october-15-2017



Other interviews with Powell:
https://www.davejanda.com/guest/david-powell/


How Republicans Can Save Health Insurance - David Powell on The Honest Media

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-BbPizA6wY


Don't believe me. Look it up yourself!

Offline Geolibertarian

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Alex himself has said countless times over the past eight years that insurance companies are the ones who "wrote" Obamacare.

Since a Medicare-for-all system would eliminate private insurance from the health care equation altogether, this means right-wing ideologues are actually trying to convince people smart enough to know better that these companies are part of an evil conspiracy to put themselves out of business.

That's the most laughable conspiracy theory I've heard since the official conspiracy theory about 9/11.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/march/obama_to_single_paye.php

Obama to Single Payer Advocates: Drop Dead

Corporate Crime Reporter
March 3, 2009

President Obama’s White House made crystal clear this week: a Canadian-style, Medicare-for-all, single payer health insurance system is off the table.

Obama doesn’t even want to discuss it.

Take the case of Congressman John Conyers (D-Michigan).

Conyers is the leading advocate for single payer health insurance in Congress.

Last week, Conyers attended a Congressional Black Caucus meeting with President Obama at the White House.

During the meeting, Congressman Conyers, sponsor of the single payer bill in the House (HR 676), asked President Obama for an invite to the President’s Marchy 5 health care summit at the White House.

Conyers said he would bring along with him two doctors — Dr. Marcia Angell and Dr. Quentin Young — to represent the majority of physicians in the United States who favor single payer.

Obama would have none of it.

This week, by e-mail, Conyers heard back from the White House — no invite.

Why not?

Well, believe it or not, the Obama White House is under the thumb of the health insurance industry.

Obama has become the industry’s chief enforcer of its key demand: single payer health insurance is off the table.

[Continued...]
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline jofortruth

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President Obama Wants A Single Payer Health Care System (Time 1:01 in his words)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhEX3rHssJI

Obama for Single-Payer Before He Was Against It (The problem is politicians lie which keeps the public confused.)

https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/obama-for-single-payer-before-he-was-against-it/

Quote
In 2003, Obama said he supports a single-payer health care system, and that the only reason we “may not get there immiediately” is “because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House” – which, of course, we have:

" I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program…I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.” – Barack Obama, 2003
Don't believe me. Look it up yourself!

Offline Geolibertarian

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Obama for Single-Payer Before He Was Against It (The problem is politicians lie)

The problem is that most people are either unable or unwilling to understand that politicians on both sides of the political fence lie -- and that those who shill on behalf of those politicians therefore lie as well.
"Abolish all taxation save that upon land values." -- Henry George

"If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill." -- Thomas Edison

http://schalkenbach.org
http://www.monetary.org
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=203330.0

Offline EvadingGrid

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    • Trump Bot Free Zone
Instead of endless circular arguments, how about looking at the big picture figures ?

If you think Free Markets are the answer to life the universe and everything DO NOT LOOK.

List of countries by life expectancy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

List of countries by total health expenditure per capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

ROFL

Cowards....
“Hey, I’m a nationalist and a globalist”
-- Donald Trump

Article : "A Limited Hangout Operation ?"

Offline TahoeBlue

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http://time.com/money/5043622/gop-tax-reform-bill-individual-mandate/
The Senate's Tax Bill Eliminates the Individual Mandate for Health Insurance. Here's What You Need to Know


By Elizabeth O'Brien December 2, 2017

Early Saturday morning, the Senate voted to pass the Republican Party’s sweeping tax reform bill, and among other provisions, the bill would eliminate the penalty for not buying health insurance starting in 2019.

So next year, you still need to be covered — at least, as of now.

The individual mandate clause of the Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. Obamacare) requires individuals to buy insurance or pay a penalty at tax time, unless they qualify for a limited number of exemptions. If the Senate’s proposal survives in the final version of the tax bill, then beginning in 2019 consumers will be able go without coverage and not face a [TAX] fine.

The penalty for going uncovered for 2018 will be $695 per adult or 2.5% of household income in excess of tax filing thresholds, whichever is higher.
Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole ; He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. - Job 5