World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries

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sociostudent

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World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« on: July 03, 2009, 08:30:17 pm »
Spies Without Borders
http://primarysources.newsvine.com/_news/2007/08/21/905477-social-networks-dummy-corporations-and-the-many-faces-of-the-cia

Another area said to be well exploited by the CIA for its ability to explain the presence of U.S. nationals in all corners of the globe is that of charities and non-governmental agencies. For many years now it has been all but accepted that USAID is "the humanitarian arm of the CIA". and Americares has been singled out as well. Moving a little closer to the fringe, the well-known relief organization World Vision is also a CIA front, "providing cover for the agency's experiments in mind control". These theories weave a tapestry in which John Lennon assassin John Hinckley and would-be Reagan assassin Mark David Chapman are 'Manchurian Candidate' mind-controlled puppets with demonstrable ties not only to World Vision, but also to the Bush family.
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Namebase: (see social network diagram by clicking link)
http://www.namebase.org/main4/World-Vision.html

At the time John Hinkley "shot" Reagan Hinkley's brother was having dinner with one of the Bush sons. Hinkley's father was a close friend of Bush senior and the number 2 man in a CIA front called WORLD VISION SOCIETY. The WORLD VISION SOCIETY purported to feed the world's hungry while all along their purpose was to manage refugee camps from which to recruit assassins. Today the WORLD VISION SOCIETY manages the refugee camp at the old Jones Town location where the CIA's Hmong mercenaries now are.

Chapman, the assassin of John Lennon, worked at a WORLD VISION SOCIETY managed refugee camp for the Cuban boat people at Fort Chaffee with the remnents of ALPHA 66. As Lennon was shot, president elect Reagan and his chosen CIA Director Bill Casey clinked champaign glasses a few blocks away in a New York City hotel. That is how they set the tenor of their administration.

And remember, the doctors said they removed a disc from Reagan--not a bullet. Barbara Honegger thinks Brady was the intended victim because of what he knew about the deal Reagan cut with the Iranians to delay the hostage release.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jonestown, CIA, World Vision, Hinckley and Bush from Internet posting:
http://www.babelmagazine.com/issue82/jonestown.html

One of the strangest CIA connections to Jonestown was World Vision, an evangelical order which often fronts for the CIA. They performed espionage work for the CIA in Southeast Asia while Operation Phoenix (the murderous project that left 40,000 people dead) was in full effect. In Honduras, they maintained a presence at CIA contra recruiting camps in the war against the Sandinistas. In Lebanon, the fascist Phalange butchered Palestinians at World Vision's camp. In Cuba, their refugee camps hosted numerous members of the anti-Castro terrorist group Alpha 66 of Bay of Pigs fame.

After the Guyana massacre, World Vision developed a scheme to repopulate Jonestown with CIA-linked mercenaries from Laos. Laos, of course, was where the CIA was running its "secret war" during Vietnam, which for the most part was a smokescreen for a widespread opium trafficking operation.

One particularly important World Vision official was John Hinckley, Sr., an oil man, reputed CIA officer, and friend of George Bush. You may have heard of his son.

Less than four months before Hinckley Jr. became known as Jodie Foster's biggest fan, another member of the World Vision order, Mark Chapman, gunned down John Lennon in what may have been a practice run for the bigger hit on President Reagan. One of the policemen who found him was convinced that he was a mind-controlled assassin. Chapman was clutching a copy of the novel "Catcher in the Rye," which was also owned by John Hinckley Jr. (The book was written by J.D. Salinger, who worked in military intelligence with Henry Kissinger during World War II.) Before going to trial, Chapman pleaded guilty after a voice in his head (which he attributed to God) commanded him to do so.

Considering the history of World Vision and what went on previously in Guyana, it is possible that the real purpose behind repopulating Jonestown was to create another breeding ground for brainwashed zombies like Chapman and Hinckley. Near Jonestown there was a place called Hilltown, a compound of 8,000 blacks that followed cult leader Rabbi David Hill, who held his flock with an iron fist. Hill had so much power that he was referred to as the "vice prime minister" of Guyana. There was also another place in Guyana called "Johnstown," as well as similar operations in the Philippines and Chile. It appears that Jonestown (and World Vision's later attempt) is hardly the exception to the rule of using obscure locations in Third World nations as laboratories for covert cult operations.

[[The "Cleon" mentioned here would be Cleon Skousen, I think.  Gritz isn't always the best source for information, but what he says here can be found in other reports as well.]]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excerpts from a talk given by Lt. Col. "Bo" Gritz in Mesa, Arizona on April 4, 1992:
http://www.ez-websites.com/grudge/bo.htm

In Mesa, I met with him [Cleon Skaas(?)] and I said, "Why in the world did Ronald Reagan sell us down the tube by taking George Bush as his running mate?" And I really didn't know that Cleon knew Ronald Reagan rather well. But he told me: He said, "Bo, George Bush was Ronald Reagan's greatest opponent," (if you'll remember, back in the 1980 elections), "and Ronald Reagan said he would never have him. Then, Ronald Reagan was invited to New York to go see Rockefeller. When he saw Rockefeller, he was told, 'If you do not take my head of the Trilateral Commission'" (remember, the Council on Foreign Relations, George Bush) "'as your running mate, the only way you'll see the inside of the White House is as a tourist.'"

Two months after he was inaugurated, two months is all that Ronald Reagan lasted. March 30th, 1981, two months after his inauguration in January of 1981, he was shot -- was he not? And the news said that he was shot by John Hinckley, Jr., and that John Hinckley, Jr., was some kind of a Jodie Foster freak. And that he came out of nowhere, and that he shot Brady in the head, and he shot a policeman in the neck, and he shot a Secret Service man and blew him back over the vehicle, and he shot Ronald Reagan. Right?

Well, remember the hardware. That's why I gave you a little introduction... I did. [Gritz had talked earlier about some sophisticated "tools of the trade."] Soon as I see this stuff I begin to wonder, because I've been a part of these kinds of operations. Let's just go back and review. It's all in the book [*Called to Serve*(?)], and so, very quickly I'll run down through you.

When Brady was shot, no question. Here we've got John Hinckley, Jr., Oh, by the way, is John Hinckley, Jr., just some kind of a "weirdo?" Isn't it strange that John Hinckley, Sr., is the owner of Vanderbilt Oil? And, of course, George Bush is the owner of Zapata Oil. Was it a coincidence, then, that John Hinckley, Sr., and George Bush are neighbors *for years* in Houston, Texas, working together? Is it any coincidence that John Hinckley, Sr., when you go back through the FEC, the Federal Election Commission, his own record of giving maximum donations every year to Mr. Bush even when he started running for Congress. Well now, does that make his son, John Hinckley, Jr., seem a little bit less of a coincidence? I think it does. Here's why:

When the President was shot, if you'll remember, he was pushed into the car by a man named Jerry Parr(sp?) that was his Secret Service guard. Jerry Parr fell on top of him and, I just saw in the *Reader's Digest* where Jerry Parr was telling his "valiant story." And the limousine tore off, didn't it? Now it was *five minutes later* that the ambulance arrived and they put the Secret Service man, the Washington, D.C. policeman, and Brady in the ambulance and *it* roared off. Using normal time-rate/distance, who should have arrived at George Washington University Hospital first? The President should have. Well, who did? You know it's a trick question. The ambulance arrived 15 minutes before the President. When asked, "What happened?" the Secret Service simply responded, "We got lost."

The Secret Service does not get lost in Washington, D.C. They don't get lost in most places of the world. And so, now the investigation starts to get a little interesting. When they take Ronald Reagan in, they can see that he... matter of fact, his heart almost stopped. And he is convulsing; there's blood on his lips. They know he's hurt... seriously. But they can find no wounds. They X-ray him *3 times* and can find nothing.

Finally, a nurse notices a tiny entrance wound right at the seventh rib, underneath the armpit. And a doctor takes a probe, and by... very carefully, because they couldn't see it on X-ray, the doctor is able to extract what he said was a planchet, thinner than a dime, that was one-quarter inch from Ronald Reagan's aorta.

Now, Ronald Reagan says... as a matter of fact, let me just see if I can just read it to you... best what Ronnie says. I've got all this in the book... This came right out of a newspaper:

I knew I had been hurt, but I thought that I'd been hurt by the  Secret  Service  man  landing on me in the car.  As it was, I must  say  it  was  the  most paralyzing pain.  I've described it as if someone hit  you with a hammer.  But the sensation, it seemed to me, came after I was in the car and so  I  thought that maybe his gun or something had broken a rib.  I set up on the  seat,  and the pain wouldn't go away -- and suddenly, I found I was coughing up blood. Now you see, to almost anyone else you might say, "Well, just some kind of a fluke." But I'm a skeptic. Because I know how these things have happened ever since they "took out" John Fitzgerald Kennedy. I think maybe JFK was the last honest President that we had... ]


world vision seems to have loose connections under the namebase cluster search with a "Luce, P." along with LaRouche, and then connecting back at CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network), this also has Brzezinski closely being involved too...could this possibly be connected to RON Luce who owns Teen Mania Ministries, in Lindale, TX which has often been associated with military-style drills and imposed/voluntary fasts on young adults in the right-wing religious movement who are willing to PAY this "institution" thousands of dollars a year to VOLUNTEER for THEM at their "Honor Academy"?

Some background on Teen Mania
"Luce was raised in a broken home and became involved in drug and alcohol abuse while living with his father.[6--btw, the LINK DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE except Luce's corporate website] Luce was taken in by a Pastor Craft and his family,[citation needed] under whose roof he became a Christian at age 16. He then committed his life to inspiring young people to following Jesus. He received his bachelor's degree in Psychology and Theology from Oral Roberts University and his Masters in Counseling Psychology from the University of Tulsa.[7] In 2002, U.S. President George W. Bush appointed him to the White House Advisory Commission on Drug-Free Communities, on which he served until 2004.[8] Luce joined the board of trustees of Oral Roberts University in January 2008.[9]"

http://www.teenmania.org

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060511_battle_cry_theocracy/
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/08/22/gw.teen.christians/
http://www.honoracademy.com/

Which still leaves the question, though: Who is "Phillip Abbot Luce"? because I can't find a thing on here about him. If Ron luce is his son, then a lot of things would make sense here. All of Ron Luce's bios online have been wiped clean, too it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Luce

Offline Dig

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2009, 09:23:55 pm »
Infiltrators and Agents Provocateurs
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:-QVSLQgrihYJ:www.questiaschool.com/read/90057692

This widely used tactic involved the infiltration of targeted organizations with informers and agents provocateurs, the latter expressly for the purpose of foment ing or engaging in illegal activities which could then be attributed to key organiza tional members and/or the organization as a whole. Agents provocateurs were also routinely assigned to disrupt the internal functioning of targeted groups and to as sist in the spread of disinformation. Once again, examples are legion. Initially, there seemed to be an inclination on the part of the Bureau to utilize such personnel, at least in part, a la Herbert "I Led Three Lives" Philbrick during the early 1950s, as vehicles to promote bogus "exposés" designed to discredit radicals "from within" their own organizations. An early instance of this concerned Phillip Abbot Luce, os tensibly a member of the Progressive Labor Party, who surfaced in 1965 to offer a series of highly inaccurate "revelations" on left thinking and practice before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee; Luce subsequently authored a book with FBI assistance, The New Left,11 containing much of the same material. Later examples of this include William Tulio Divalo with Joseph James, I Lived Inside the Campus Revolution,12 and Larry Grathwohl (as told to Frank Reagan), Bringing Down America: An FBI Informer with the Weatherman.13

Literally thousands of infiltrators were used against the left in the 1960s. Ac cording to the New York Times,14 the Bureau deployed 316 informers between 1960 and 1976 within the Socialist Workers Party ( SWP) and its youth wing, Young Socialist Alliance ( YSA), alone. Forty-two of these FBI plants had held office within the SWP or YSA and had thus participated in shaping the very organizational policies which the Bureau claimed it was necessary to investigate; as of June 1976, more than sixty infiltrators were still active within SWP and YSA.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Private Counter-subversion under Reagan
http://www.publiceye.org/huntred/Hunt_For_Red_Menace-10.html

The main right-wing domestic intelligence-gathering networks that operated during the Reagan/Bush Administrations were the John Rees Information Digest network, and a more amorphous network of New Right groups around the Council for Inter-American Security, Young American's for Freedom, and the American Sentinel newsletter. Two other domestic intelligence operations were run by two cult leaders, the neo-fascist Lyndon LaRouche, and the theocratic authoritarian Rev. Sun Myung Moon. Dozens of smaller private right-wing spy operations operated freely during the 1980's.

While there is competition and sometimes acrimony among counter- subversion groups, there is also room for cooperation. For instance in 1981 when the American Sentinel was still called "Pink Sheet on the Left" and Phillip Abbot Luce was still editor, Luce wrote a promotional letter to his subscribers strongly recommending the "informative work being done by Dr. Fred Schwarz and his Christian Anti-Communist Crusade." Luce called the Crusade's newsletter excellent, and went on to rave that the publication was "Educational, informative and hard-hitting. I find it accurate, fact-filled and very well-documented."
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2009, 10:42:49 pm »
hey sane, remember those creepy father-daughter balls?

http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=6461

I rescued my eldest daughter f
I rescued my eldest daughter from the "Honor" academy after it became apparent that it was anything but. In our case we paid to have our daughter spend a major portion of the day in a boiler room atmosphere phone bank soliciting churches to attend Aquire the Fire seminars. If an Honor Acamdemy enrolee quits they are sometimes shunned, in our case most of the kids who lived with our daughter surronded her with hugs and love when she left. Ron Luce struck me as aloof and a figurehead for the ministry. That little burrough in Texas is unusual in that the Teen Mania campus was the site of Last Days ministries, Winkie Pratney's library is literally around the corner as YWAM is HQ'd there, along with the hospital ship ministry. It's a real blast from the past if you miss the eighties just stop by they'll give you a filler-up of "Jesus is coming soon ha-ha, ho-ho, he-he..."ala Dr. Demento...."
"Instead of editing I'll just post this thought as an afterword. Alarm bells began going off when our daughter was told she would be required to covenant with the ministry in the "Ring" ceremony. This is a long drwn out program that espouses chastity until marriage-but the whole of the class is cajoled into participating in this covenant that is signed and ceremony. Our daughter did not engage in this activity and it was at this point that our pastor who'd been supportive of her going agreed it was time to coem home for her. We found teen mania sought to undermine the family and the local church in establishing covenants that were unscriptural and legalistic. the mere mention of Teen Mania gives her shivers.
John"

lol


Offline Dig

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2009, 10:49:35 pm »
hey sane, remember those creepy father-daughter balls?

http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=6461

I rescued my eldest daughter f
I rescued my eldest daughter from the "Honor" academy after it became apparent that it was anything but. In our case we paid to have our daughter spend a major portion of the day in a boiler room atmosphere phone bank soliciting churches to attend Aquire the Fire seminars. If an Honor Acamdemy enrolee quits they are sometimes shunned, in our case most of the kids who lived with our daughter surronded her with hugs and love when she left. Ron Luce struck me as aloof and a figurehead for the ministry. That little burrough in Texas is unusual in that the Teen Mania campus was the site of Last Days ministries, Winkie Pratney's library is literally around the corner as YWAM is HQ'd there, along with the hospital ship ministry. It's a real blast from the past if you miss the eighties just stop by they'll give you a filler-up of "Jesus is coming soon ha-ha, ho-ho, he-he..."ala Dr. Demento...."
"Instead of editing I'll just post this thought as an afterword. Alarm bells began going off when our daughter was told she would be required to covenant with the ministry in the "Ring" ceremony. This is a long drwn out program that espouses chastity until marriage-but the whole of the class is cajoled into participating in this covenant that is signed and ceremony. Our daughter did not engage in this activity and it was at this point that our pastor who'd been supportive of her going agreed it was time to coem home for her. We found teen mania sought to undermine the family and the local church in establishing covenants that were unscriptural and legalistic. the mere mention of Teen Mania gives her shivers.
John"

lol




oh man that shit creeps me out, like watching The Wicker Man while in a "Clockwork Orange" chair surrounded by druids reading Blavatsky
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2009, 11:05:14 pm »

oh man that shit creeps me out, like watching The Wicker Man while in a "Clockwork Orange" chair surrounded by druids reading Blavatsky

the sad thing is, places like this really reinforce the left-right paradigm and throw the dems on the defensive with the hate crime legislation....it's almost like that's what they're trying to do or something, it's just weird:

http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2008/3/10/191838/970

Orgetorix

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2009, 11:07:24 pm »
Sane posted the first part of this series in another thread titled "How deep does the rabbit hole go". I've been reading through the rest of it. Here is the excerpted parts about Jonestown.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fire17.htm

PART 17:

THE JONESTOWN MASSACRE HOAX

In studying what the truth is behind many of the events in recent history, you will find some amazing interconnections. Once you realize that the same "elite" groups of conspirators are behind many of our problems, it should not be surprising that there are connections because it is the same people involved.

A better known example that could be given of this is E. Howard Hunt. Most researchers know that Hunt was involved in such seemingly unrelated events as the Bay of Pigs invasion, the Kennedy assassination and Watergate. If you "do your homework," you will find connections between the Jonestown massacre, the Waco massacre, and the Oklahoma City federal building bombing.

To understand the Jim Jones Jonestown tragedy, you need to understand some of the background.

In 1976-79, I worked in the classified section of Control Data Corporation. Control Data had the world's most powerful computers at that time, and they were used by the U.S. in its most secret and most important projects. I was also coordinator for the Mensa Special Interest Group called the "Doomsday Club."

I wrote a newsletter called the *Doomsday Club News and Intelligence Report.* I learned some things that concerned me about what Russia was doing and quoted an article from the Oct. 2, 1978, *Aviation Week and Space Technology* magazine in my October newsletter.

I learned, for instance, that Russia had been shooting down our spy satellites. What I did not know at the time was that Dr. Peter David Beter was also concerned because he was getting information superior to some of our intelligence services about what was really going on.

For example, in June 1976, Dr. Beter received information that Russia had planted a nuclear bomb on Mt. Desert Island, Maine, near the Seal Harbor home of Nelson Rockefeller. He reported the information to General George S. Brown, Chairman of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, who had the information checked AND FOUND THE BOMB.

Nelson Rockefeller immediately put his home up for sale, although it had been in the Rockefeller for two generations. Dr. Beter said, "But my report of June 1976 about the Seal Harbor bomb led to far more than the present unsettled real estate conditions there. It proved to high intelligence that the Dr. Beter Audio Letter could be trusted to tell the truth; and from that point onward, I began receiving large amounts of intelligence information that is not entrusted to any other public information channel." (Dr. Beter Audio Tape #39 recorded 10/29/78.)

Dr. Beter continued to give Gen. Brown such information as the precise location of Russia's secret missile and bomb emplacement, including some that had been planted on American soil and in U.S. rivers, near dams, etc. Russia would plant them, Dr. Beter would tell Brown, and Brown would have them removed.

The Bolsheviks in our government who were working with Russia arranged to have Brown replaced, and the bombs were no longer removed. On October 1, 1976, President Gerald Ford (a secret Communist and member of the Michigan Mafia) signed what has been called the treasonous Red Friday Agreement and the Russians were allowed to continue without interference.

In Beter's Audio Letter #39, recorded 10/29/78, and printed in *Wisconsin Report* of November 16, 1978, he quoted the same October 2nd article from *Aviation Week* that I quoted in *my* October 1978 newsletter, about Russia attaining Particle Beam weapons technology. In his letter he said, "Last September 1977 I reported Russia's first operational use of Particle Beam weapons in space.

On September 20, 1977, the Russians blasted an American Spy Satellite into a huge fireball in space as it passed over the Petrozvodsk Observatory in northern Russia. And barely a week later, on September 27, 1977, the secret American Moon Base in Copernicus Crater was silenced by Russia's neutron-beam attack from Earth orbit. America had just lost the Battle of the Harvest Moon. Immediately America was forced to stop short in her secret Beam-weapons race with Russia, for suddenly our Unseen Rulers were teetering on the edge of war itself - and Russia suddenly was calling the shots."

And now, friends, you know what the Apollo Moon Landing (hoax) was about - it was a cover for the real above-top-secret military missions. Although top secret, hints of the base have appeared here and there. The December 1993/January 1994 issue of *Air & Space* magazine, in the article "Securing the High Ground," said:

"Details of the moon base, which were contained in a thick secret report called 'Military Lunar Base Program or S.R. 183 Lunar Observatory Study,' were revealed by the Air Force Ballistic Missile Division's Directorate of Space Planning and Analysis *in April 1960.* The heart of S.R. (Study Requirement) 183 was an underground lunar-Based Earth-Bombardment System that would insure 'positive retaliation' in the event of a Soviet attack against the United States. Although the report said that construction of the missile complex could be postponed for three or four years, it called for active planning for the base to begin '*immediately* if maximum military advantage is to be derived from a lunar program."

The broad outlines of the moonbase plan had been published in the April and September 1959 issues of *Aviation Week.* Richard Hoagland, R. Renè, Bill Kaysing, and others have determined that the NASA moon landings as presented were hoaxed and they discuss what might really have happened. Hoagland has found evidence of the remains of highly advanced structures on the Moon AND Mars. What Hoagland does not know is that *some* of those structures could be American built. This is a story that remains to be told.

You will wonder where Beter got his information, including information that not even our highest intelligence services knew. Most of you are not ready for the answer to THAT QUESTION, but for those of you who are ready, I will tell you that the answer is revealed on page 204 of *Missing the Lifeboat?* Phoenix Journal #86 and page 29 of *Ascension or Never-Never Land?* Phoenix Journal #98. [Call 1-800-800-5565 to order.]

On May 25, 1961, President Kennedy (in his state of the union address, not the inaugural address as sometimes reported) made the famous speech in which he said: "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to Earth."

Apparently he did not know at the time, although he soon began to learn, that at the time he made that statement, there was a base already on the Moon. A year later, on May 22, 1962, a space probe landed on Mars and confirmed the existence of an environment which could support life. Not long afterward the construction of a colony on the planet Mars was begun in real earnest.

If you want to learn more, I suggest you research the subject known among the UFO crowd as "Alternative 3" (the book by that name is about 75% true and 25% disinformation). "Bob Grodin" was a pseudonym for an astronaut who saw the real base. The moonbase was set up by our *actual* rulers, known as Bilderbergers (this project was headed by the particular group known as the Jason Society), with headquarters in Switzerland.

They have meetings to make their plans and *Spotlight* newspaper likes to brag that it is able to penetrate the meetings. What *Spotlight* doesn't know is the main meetings were conducted on a nuclear submarine under the Polar ice cap. There are fewer party crashers there. For proof that NASA has lied to you, contact Richard Hoagland of the Mars Mission. While you are at it, ask him about Dan Quayle. *(The Mars Mission,* 122 Dodd St. Weehawken, NJ 07087).

The RAND Corporation developed nuclear powered machinery for creating the underground tunnels at the base. The machinery was also used in the U.S. to build a huge network of underground tunnels and complexes. You might want to read *Underground Bases and Tunnels - What is the Government Trying to Hide?* by Richard Sauder, a book available from *Spotlight* newspaper.

People who worked on the Apollo programs and in NASA will say that I do not know what I am talking about, after all, they were "there," they "know." For serious open-minded researcher, those who realize that something is fishy with NASA and want to know the real truth, I will tell you that the *REAL* Moon vehicles operate out of S-4 in Nevada (and sometimes Area 51), not to mention the Russian bases.

CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS

In 1962, it was learned that Russia was deploying nuclear missiles in Cuba. The information was obtained from photos taken by a U2 aircraft piloted by Roger Chaffee. President John F. Kennedy, thanks to information provided to him by the Russian defector Colonel Oleg Penkovsky, knew Russia's military weaknesses and warned Khruschev to pull the missiles out. Khruschev was in no position to stand up to Kennedy, so he removed the missiles. The story has been written many times in books and articles.

The U2 pilot Roger Chaffee later was chosen as an astronaut on Apollo 1, commanded by veteran astronaut Gus Grissom (Mercury and Gemini flights). The evidence indicates Chaffee, Grissom and White were murdered, perhaps because Grissom did not like to cooperate in the hoax.

Grissom told his wife, "If there ever is a serious accident in the Space Program, it's likely to be me." Grissom tried to get NASA chief administrator Joe Shea to go through the Apollo test with him. Chaffee had never been in space, but was a veteran of secret intelligence missions such as the U2 flights. NASA had 7 oxygen fire accidents before Grissom, Chaffee, and White were "accidentally" burned up in Apollo I in January, 1967. See Apollo Astronaut Was Murdered (Link Added by Hard Truth)

General Phillips, Frank Borman's superior, did an investigation which was withheld from the public as "classified." Why classified? What were they hiding? Eight astronauts died of "accidents" in 1967. Is it any wonder that the other astronauts "got with the program?" For more details see *NASA Mooned America!* by R. Renè. (R. Renè, 31 Burgess Place, Passaic, NJ 07055.)

What Kennedy did *not* know when the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred was that Russia was very close to deploying a totally new weapons system. Khruschev lost much face with his countrymen, temporarily. To regain face with his leaders, on April 10, 1963, he tested his new weapons system by destroying the *U.S.S. Thresher* nuclear submarine. That is another story for another time.

What all the many books about the Cuban Missile Crisis did not tell you, however, was where Khruschev moved those missiles.

At that time the secret Rockefeller/Soviet alliance was in full swing, and the long range joint plans for a controlled Nuclear War were moving right along. Both sides were looking ahead toward an eventual double-cross, but that still lay far in the future at that time. The deliberate strengthening of Russia at America's expense was part of their joint plan for World Government and conquest.

The Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 threw a temporary monkey wrench into the program when President Kennedy intervened personally and stopped the nuclear arming of Cuba; and for doing that, and other humane "indiscretions," he lost his life in Dallas barely a year later. For additional information on Kennedy's secret plans, read *Final Judgment* by Michael Collins Piper, available from *Spotlight* newspaper, 300 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20003.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fire18.htm

PART 18:

GUYANA

Kennedy's successor, Lyndon Johnson, made sure that *he* followed the script more carefully. In the wake of the Cuban crisis, the Russians needed a new forward base in the Caribbean area for strategic purposes until the heat was off in Cuba. To accommodate Russia, Guyana was selected for this purpose, and David Rockefeller saw to it that a Marxist named Forbes Burnham became Prime Minister. In return, the Chase Manhattan Bank became fiscal agent for Guyana, giving Rockefeller access to the gold produced in Guyana; and as a key factor in all this, then-President Lyndon Johnson in 1965 turned over the American Air Base, Atkinson Field, to Guyana.

America's right to retain control over the base for several more decades was simply thrown away without any excuses offered. Atkinson Field, which was then renamed Temehri Airfield, is south of Georgetown, the capital city. This is the airfield to which American helicopters carried bodies to be airlifted to America after the Jonestown disaster.

When Johnson gave the Temehri Airfield to Marxist Guyana, he handed Russia a very large plum indeed. The Temehri Airfield is the largest in all of Latin America, larger even than New York's largest airport, the John F. Kennedy Airport; and its location makes it ideal for ferrying Cuban troops and supplies to Africa.

As a result, Johnson's action on behalf of the Rockefellers robbed the United States of an important logistic connection to Africa while opening the door for Cuban troops. Our later troubles with Cuban troops in Angola and elsewhere in Africa were partly the result.

For a number of years, Russian military activity in Guyana was heavily concentrated around the vicinity of the Temehri Airfield. In 1974, the Russians placed missiles in sites that ringed the airfield. Then the missiles were pulled out from those locations and moved to a separate missile complex west of Georgetown, over the following two years.

In that new complex, the missiles were deployed at sites scattered over an area some 30 miles in diameter. In the approximate center was a Command and Control installation commanded by Russian personnel. And the plot began to thicken.

After the missile base relocation was completed, the missile complex was centered at a point about 70 miles northwest of Temehri Airfield. It was no accident that the Peoples' Temple kibbutz was located so close to the missile base.

At the time the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) was established in WW II, Nelson Rockefeller already had a strong presence in Latin America with his own agency called the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs. I am reminded of a story told to me by a friend who, as a young German in South America, was arrested for being German and sent to a concentration camp in Texas for the duration of World War II. Later he often returned to South America. He told me of the time he lived near the border of Colombia and Venezuela and admired the huge beautiful field of flowers owned by Rockefeller. Did you know that Rockefeller loved flowers and was in the flower business? What kind of flowers, you ask?

POPPIES!

ORIGINS OF THE PEOPLES' TEMPLE

The origins of the Peoples' Temple in the 1950s had nothing to do with government intrigues. It was not until about 1970 that certain elements of the United States intelligence community began to infiltrate and subvert the Peoples' Temple. The Rockefeller brothers have always had a standard practice of supporting not only the faction in power but also spies and opponents to that faction - and who doesn't want a little "free" funding and support money? In this manner they are always in a position, at least theoretically, to cut down anyone who tries to break free of their control.

In the case of Guyana, the Rockefellers wanted to have such a tool in Guyana as a check on Forbes Burnham, the Prime Minister, whom they had put in power with the use of their money. Certain elements within the United States intelligence community under general coordination by the CIA were given the task of finding ways of accomplishing this.

In the course of evaluating various options, it was concluded that the Peoples' Temple would prove ideal. The psychological profile of the leader, Jim Jones, indicated that he could be converted into a powerful tool of the Unseen Rulers. Contrary to reports in the controlled major media, Jim Jones was born a Jew, and he already exhibited tendencies toward kibbutz-style organization that could be channeled into useful directions. This would be brought about through a combination of both conscious and unconscious factors.

At the conscious level, money and powerful political support would be channeled in his direction; at the unconscious level, the technique of psychological programming would be employed.

Gradually, Jim Jones would lose control of his own personality and become what our Unseen Rulers wanted him to be. The process would inevitably create tremendous internal conflicts and turn Jim Jones into a troubled and dangerous man.

CHANGES IN BEHAVIOR

By 1973, changes in Jones' behavior began to be noticed by his friends and followers. His conversion into a semi-conscious agent of death and intrigue was underway in earnest by that time. That same year the mushrooming funds of the Peoples' Temple were used to launch the agricultural kibbutz at Jonestown, Guyana, though only a few people went there at that time.

Guyana was a rigid Marxist police state, and no one could have launched a new enterprise like the Commune without its approval by Forbes Burnham; but David Rockefeller agents made sure that Burnham received all the assurances he needed that the Jones compound would fit neatly into the Marxist environment of Guyana.

At the same time, Forbes Burnham had begun double-crossing David Rockefeller, exactly as had been feared. He was now playing ball politically but he was hiding much of Guyana's gold production in caves in the mountains. David Rockefeller found this out sometime later, but by then the much bigger problem was developing from a double-cross by Russia so Burnham was left untouched in order to make way for bigger things.

By summer 1974, the Rockefeller brothers were still soundly in bed with the Kremlin, and there were already ominous signs that something was happening in Russia which they did not understand; but they simply could not imagine that their old Kremlin allies, the Bolsheviks, were being overthrown.

Public warnings about Guyana missiles were denied or ignored. The planned and programmed Nuclear War was being blueprinted for the late 1970s and they did not want the plan to be spoiled by public awareness; but two years later Russia's all-out military double-cross of America began with the Underwater Missile Crisis of 1976, another story for another time.

MAJOR TARGET

The Guyana missile base was one of the major targets of the revised planning. When this planning began more than two years prior, the Space Battle of the Harvest Moon still lay in the future. It seemed quite inconceivable that America could lose its secret beam-weapons base which was soon to be operational on the Moon; and so long as they had this Moon Base to depend on, our Unseen Rulers thought they could not lose. But in light of the Underwater Missile double cross, they wanted to be able to pull as many of Russia's military teeth as possible. In this way, their destruction of Russia would be even more complete than originally planned.

The planners of Operation Guyana were given a difficult problem to solve. The objective was to wipe out the Russian missile base in Guyana by removing the threat it posed to the Panama Canal and southern American cities; but this was to be a pre-war operation carried out covertly and with complete surprise. It had to be covertly, because neither the United States nor Russia could afford to have it known that the base ever existed; and the surprise had to be complete, because with even the briefest warning the base could be reinforced and defended by Cuban troops.

From these requirements it was concluded that a commando-style raid would be necessary, something like the Israeli raid at Entebbe Airport in Uganda in July 1976. Any other kind of attack would have required our leaders to do what President Kennedy did in 1962, that is, tell the American people what was afoot and ask for our support. At all costs, the one thing our Unseen Rulers were determined not to do was to tell us anything. The problem then arose - how to get the joint attacking forces into Guyana in a force large enough and fast enough to do the job without betraying their hand.

Wiping out a base like that one in Guyana, after all, was no small task. It was then concluded that somehow some very sudden, massive, compelling excuse would have to be provided in order to enable the secret joint military to enter Guyana temporarily. The excuse, whatever it was, would have to be so visible as to tie Russia's hands so that Russia could not retaliate in Guyana without giving away what she had been up to there; and the excuse would have to appear non-military yet require military expertise.

Furthermore, some provision would have to be made for ALL casualties in the missile-base attack to be removed from Guyana after the raid, otherwise their presence in Guyana could have been made the basis of an international incident trumped up around some different story unrelated to the secret missile base.

For example, the government of Guyana, following Russian dictates, might have publicly displayed the bodies of the joint military forces killed in the attack and said they were killed in an attempted coup d'etat against Forbes Burnham. It was a very big order, but the Jonestown kibbutz proved to be the answer. All that was necessary was to arrange for many hundreds of American citizens to die *suddenly* in Guyana and under conditions guaranteeing instant massive publicity.

The sheer enormity of the tragedy would require military involvement, and the location of Jonestown was made to order. Helicopters commuting between the Temehri Airfield and Jonestown would naturally fly over the missile complex - whose details were known in spite of expert camouflage. This meant that joint special armed forces could be set down near the perimeters of the missile base and later recovered, along with casualties, with relative ease.

And as the reporters at the Temehri Airfield watched helicopters leaving to the northwest and return from the same direction, they were led to assume that all were going to and from Jonestown some 150 miles away. They had no way of knowing that many of the flights were to and from the Russian missile base, which lay in the same direction but only half as far distant.

IN THE BEGINNING OF THE SCHEME

When it was decided to use mass deaths at Jonestown as a cover for the missile-base attack, Jonestown was functioning only as an outpost of the Peoples' Temple. There were not enough people there to provide a sufficiently major incident to serve the intended purpose, and so, through both direct and indirect means, Jim Jones was persuaded to go to the Guyana kibbutz himself, taking as many of his flock as would follow him.

That turned out to be about 25% to 30%, and by following him they automatically identified themselves as the group most highly dependent upon Jones personally. They were also most susceptible to the combined influences of exhaustion, intimidation, and isolation from outside help - in other words, just right for thorough brainwashing.

Ever since the days of the Korean War it had been known conclusively that brainwashing techniques can cause many people to do all kinds of things. Even hardened American GIs in Korea fell victim to brainwashing in surprising numbers because they did not understand what they were up against. The Jonestown victims were anything but hardened soldiers.

In August 1977, Jim Jones left for Guyana with his large sacrificial flock. That same month, United Nations Ambassador Andrew Young carried a message to Prime Minister Forbes Burnham of Guyana. He said that under certain conditions the United States and the World Bank would increase its aid to Guyana - that is, line Burnham's pocket by a factor of ten times more than previous levels. And so the key disaster of Jonestown was set into motion shortly before the Battle of the Harvest Moon.

POOR LEO RYAN

To trigger the whole tragedy and in a blare of publicity, the interest of late Congressman Leo J. Ryan was developed and programmed.

In a display of courage that is practically unknown today in the U.S. Congress, Ryan went to Guyana knowing that it might be dangerous. But what he did not know, of course, was that he had been lured into making a trip whose tragic outcome was planned well in advance.

Congressman Ryan and those who died with him at Port Kaituma Airport were casualties in the secret war that was leading up to Nuclear War One. And so were the hundreds of other American civilians who died in the so-called "mass suicide" at Jonestown, Guyana.

As the time approached for Congressman Ryan to make his anticipated trip to Guyana, other activities were set in motion on the diplomatic and military state. It was essential that Russia's attention be diverted away from Guyana until too late to take action to protect the missile base.

Russia's prize in the Western Hemisphere, of course, is Cuba; and so in the final days before the Battle of Guyana on Thanksgiving Day 1978, the trumped up MIG-23 crisis was used to divert Russian attention to Cuba. Only too late did the Kremlin discover that the real target was not Cuba but Guyana.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fire19.htm

PART 19:

THE BATTLE OF THANKSGIVING DAY 1978

Close aides of the late Congressman Leo Ryan have reported publicly that his ill-fated decision to go to Guyana was triggered by a State Department report to him that he found totally unsatisfactory. This reaction of Ryan's had been correctly predicted and, in fact, deliberately encouraged. With elections coming up, Congressman Ryan decided to schedule the trip after the election during the Congressional recess.

This was a quite natural decision, and had also been anticipated by the planners behind the scenes. No politician would miss the opportunity to campaign right up to election day.

As the time approached for his trip, the false issue of the Cuban MIG-23 crisis erupted. The Carter Administration had learned nearly a year prior that the Russians were going to send the MIG-23s to Cuba and decided that it would be a perfect pretext for a fake crisis. The MIG-23 can carry certain types of nuclear weapons as claimed; but even this role it is a tactical weapon best suited for support of ground or naval forces.

The MIG-23 in and of itself did not threaten America in the same way that the 1962 Cuban missiles did, and so when the United States began playing up the MIG-23s, it was very obvious to the Kremlin that this was a deliberate effort to stir up public tension over Cuba.

The questions were: Exactly what was the United States up to? Would the Carter Administration be so crazy as to invade Cuba? Such a thing sounded irrational, but America's Unseen Rulers were behaving more and more irrationally.

This, too, was partially deliberate and was intended to keep the chess players in the Kremlin off balance, but it was also partly a result of the increasing degree of control over America by those Satanic schizophrenics, the Bolsheviks.

Cuba was, after all, very important to Russia, for Russia was looking ahead to world domination after Nuclear War I; and for that, Cuba is Russia's main beach-head in the Western Hemisphere. Even more urgently, Cuba was the un_admitted home of Russia's Caribbean Submarine Fleet, and that fleet had repeatedly moved into attack positions in the Gulf of Mexico over the prior two years and more during periods of tension.

As if that were not enough, there were concentrations of nuclear weapons in at least four land locations in Cuba. One was near the north coast roughly 10 miles inland southeast of Cardenas. This location is 150 miles due south of Cape Sable, Florida. A second site was about 150 miles to the east-southeast of that and about 10 miles inland from the north coast. One hundred twenty five miles farther to the southeast was a third concentration 15 miles northeast of Marti, well inland. A fourth nuclear site was near the eastern tip of Cuba, 18 miles north-northwest of the United States Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay.

With all this at stake, American publicity over the MIG-23s caused worry in the Kremlin. And in early November the tension increased when the United States began sending SR-71 reconnaissance flights over Cuba - shades of 1962 and the U-2.

In response, massive formations from the Atlantic, Pacific, and Caribbean Submarine Fleets of the Russian Navy began fanning out along America's east, west, and gulf coasts on November 6. They did not deploy into attack formations but their sheer numbers signaled a clear warning to Washington. At that moment they were still on station, many with neutron weaponry.

Then during the week immediately preceding the tragedies in Guyana the MIG-23 pseudo crisis built to a climax. Beginning on Tuesday, November 14, a huge combined American and British naval Task Force began heading toward Cuba. By midweek, Cuban defense forces were on full alert, and on Thursday, November 16, a group of twelve United States Senators in Moscow - supposedly to discuss the SALT talks - met with Russia's Kosygin.

There they pressed the alleged issue of the Cuban MIG-23 argument, calling it a "false issue." As a former test pilot and America's first astronaut in orbit, Senator John Glenn knew what he was talking about, but Kosygin's anger over the other comments about the MIGs provided the United States intelligence community with valuable proof that the decoy action toward Cuba was working. The next day, November 17, Russia publicly admitted sending MIG-23s to Cuba, calling them strictly defensive weapons.

The same day an editorial in the *Washington Post* typified the crescendo of media attention to the Cuban MIG-23s. It was titled: "A New Cuban Missile Crisis?" The very next day, Saturday, November 18, Congressman Leo Ryan, three newsmen and a woman seeking to escape from Jonestown were slaughtered at the Port Kaituma Airport. At least a dozen other people were also wounded, but there was no effort to destroy the airplane filled with terrified escapees from Jonestown. Instead, many witnesses were left alive, and a smaller plane managed to take off right after the airport massacre and report the attack in the capital, Georgetown.

Immediately world attention was focused on Guyana, and meanwhile the mass murder at Jonestown - wrongly called a mass suicide - was underway.

At this point, the elaborate decoy action toward Cuba was no longer needed, so the Pentagon announced that a routine naval exercise was in progress which would approach no closer to Cuba than 50 miles. Cuban defense forces relaxed, but the real action was only beginning in Guyana. The methodical executions of Congressman Ryan and three prominent newsmen had guaranteed that Jonestown would shortly be in the glare of publicity. Having guaranteed this publicity, Jim Jones then ordered the mass executions at the Jonestown kibbutz.

DETAILS OF MASSACRE

The complete details of the Jonestown disaster may never be known publicly. It is certain, however, that very few if any of those who died there willingly took their own lives. Some were tricked, not realizing that the death rites were real. Many more resisted, but they were weak, helpless, and confronted with armed execution squads. So by various means, several hundred people were poisoned with potassium cyanide, many by being forcibly injected. Many more fled into the jungle, where U.S. Army Green Berets and British SAS special forces troops tracked them down and killed them with a shot to the temple.

Finally, when the mass murder was completed, the executioners performed their final task of stage-managing the horrible death scene. In order to achieve the surprise needed in attacking the Russian missile base, it was critically important that the first reports from Jonestown described the scene as a mass suicide. Only in this way could its actual military significance be hidden long enough to fool the Russians.

Therefore, all the bodies free of gunshot wounds were carefully arranged in neat rows and other groupings, suggesting at first sight that everyone died willingly and deliberately. This was the scene that greeted Guyanese troops late the following day, Sunday, November 19. It was more than 24 hours after the kibbutz victims died and the executioners, including the real Jim Jones, were long gone. Jim Jones did not die at Jonestown.

COUNTERS AFRAID OF DISEASE

The Guyanese troops were afraid of possible disease but counted the bodies as accurately as possible without close handling or moving the bodies. The total they reported was 409 on that Sunday night. The initial impression of a mass suicide was seized upon by the controlled major media of the United States. Without waiting for an investigation, the media drummed away at the suicide image of Jonestown as if it were a proven fact. After a few days a few people did begin to raise questions, but by then the initial image of suicide had served its purpose of opening Guyana's doors to the United States.

For example, on Tuesday, November 21, Jim Jones' surviving son, Steven, said in a Georgetown press conference, "There's no way it could have been mass suicide." And that same day, according to the *Washington Star,* a Guyanese source pointed out a serious medical discrepancy in the Jonestown kibbutz death scene. He said, "If you die of cyanide, which seems to have been the poison, your body goes into spasm and contortion death, but at Jonestown everyone looked totally relaxed."

The reason for this discrepancy was that by the time the Guyanese troops arrived, all the bodies had been rearranged. They were also placed face down for the most part. This was so that the widely publicized news photos would not ruin the desired impression of calm by letting you see the victims' final expression of agony.

THE NIGHTMARE CONTINUED

To continue the nightmare charade to fool the Russians, the United States at first publicly urged Guyana to collect and bury the hundreds of bodies. As arranged, Guyana replied in effect that it was America's problem and that America should take the bodies back to the United States - just as planned. To facilitate this huge and hideous task, Guyana obligingly agreed to waive the usual Guyanese law that requires any body to be autopsied before removal from the country. With this arrangement, the United States achieved the carte blanche military access to Guyana that was needed.

Russian intelligence realized what was afoot by early Monday, November 20, but it was already too late to stop it. Russia could hardly announce to the world that, "We have a secret nuclear missile base in Guyana and the United States is getting ready to destroy it." That would have rallied world opinion behind America; and, although Russian Cosmoshperes quickly converged over Guyana, they, too, were useless in the covert conditions of battle there.

Their Charged Particle Beam Weapons could have made short work of the commando-style forces, but in the process they would have wiped out the Russian base itself. The Guyana missiles had become only a minor factor in Russia's military power since the Battle of the Harvest Moon the year prior. They were not valuable enough to Russia to declare open war on their account. And so under these conditions, Russia was powerless to act once the Jonestown tragedy had been staged.

As Thanksgiving Day approached, huge American transports, helicopters, troops, and medical teams swarmed into Guyana. In a remote corner of the huge Temehri Airfield a command post was established for the twin operations of Jonestown and the Russian missile base.

As some of the troops began the nauseating task of cleaning up the Jonestown kibbutz, other joint attack forces were taking up positions around the missile base in preparations for the surprise raid. Meanwhile, day after day the death count reported at Jonestown remained unchanged at 409.

Then on Thanksgiving Day itself, the Battle of Guyana took place. Crack military forces experienced in jungle and surprise warfare moved in on the Russian complex, striking all the dispersed sites simultaneously. Like the Entebbe raid, the battle itself did not last long. It had to be over quickly to be successful.

First the small crews on site near each missile were overwhelmed, and then killed. The missiles themselves were quickly disabled. Next the military forces converged on the Missile Command and Control Center, where a bloody pitched battle took place.

When the smoke cleared, every single person manning the missile base had been killed, including the Russian commanders.

When the battle was over, American helicopters from Temehri Airfield began landing within the ruined missile complex and flying out the wounded. Then the remaining attackers were left with two more jobs before they could retire from the area. First, they were under strict orders to leave no bodies in the attacking forces on Guyanese soil, and so the entire area was scoured until every single member of the attacking force had been accounted for. Their bodies, like those of the victims at Jonestown, were sealed in Vietnam-type body bags and collected in clearings where helicopters could land to pick them up.

Finally, the combined forces were under orders to remove the nuclear warheads from the missiles and take them back to Georgetown for airlift to the United States. Specially trained members of the attacking force had set to work on this task immediately after the initial attacks on the missile crews.

By early Friday, November 24, all the warheads had been removed. They, too, were placed in body bags, one per bag, with some jungle foliage stuffed in to give the bag a reasonable appearance.

Of course none of this war was apparent to the reporters at Temehri Airfield, whose access to the American Command Post there was carefully controlled. When wounded members of the attacking force were flown back to the Airfield, after the Battle of Guyana on Thanksgiving afternoon, they were kept out of sight of the reporters. Otherwise, when reporters occasionally saw body bags being moved from place to place they just naturally assumed that all contained victims from Jonestown. They had no way of knowing that some contained slain Commandoes and that others contained Russian nuclear warheads. The continual cargo of death from the Jonestown kibbutz made the perfect cover for the aftermath of the Battle of Guyana.

WHERE COULD THEY TAKE ALL THOSE BODIES?

Many reporters were totally puzzled at the choice of Dover Air Force Base in Delaware for the Guyana airlift. Most of the Jonestown victims were from California, and there is a mortuary facility, similar to the Dover facility, at Oakland Air Force Base in California. Dover was chosen to facilitate transfer of the Russian nuclear warheads to the nearby Aberdeen Proving Ground and Arsenal. This was done by means of shallow flights from Dover to Phillips Air Force Base.

Originally the Guyanese count of 409 had been accepted as firm by United States officials in Guyana. That had raised questions as to where the rest of the one thousand or so residents reported to be in Jonestown had gone. Finally, on Thanksgiving Day, with the body clean-up operation well under way, a military spokesman told reporters, "The evaluation that we have made is simply that there were not many more people in Jonestown at the time of the suicide." But even as he spoke, the Battle of Guyana was raging at the Russian missile base. By midday on Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, 485 body bags had already arrived at the Temehri Airfield. The "bodies" of warheads from the Russian missile base were destined to raise the total far beyond the total of 409 bodies originally counted by the Guyanese at the kibbutz. It was a bad mistake, the kind of thing that happens in the heat of battle. Something had to be done, and quickly.

So, on that Friday after Thanksgiving, a breathless and nervous Pentagon spokesman at the Temehri Airfield made a stunning announcement over CBS television [some of us call it CIABS Television, don't we, Dan Rather?]: "The original count of persons found dead at the Jonestown site has been found to be seriously in error. It now appears there may be as many as 780 bodies, total, found at the site. They were found simply buried under other bodies. There were larger adults that were grouped together, and under their bodies were found bodies, and under their bodies were found the bodies of smaller adults and children."

Rather a curious mass suicide, I would say.

Badgered by incredulous reporters, the Government embellished the cover story later on. The *Washington Star* quoted the same spokesman as saying Friday night: "Near the center of the pile of bodies, near the assembly hall, they were three deep in some areas. They were in layers with blankets between them." Wasn't it just nice of all those people to fall over in well orchestrated and neat rows?

The story was so unbelievable that within two days the United States Government dismissed its own story about the blankets as a "rumor." Still the basic idea of bodies on top of bodies had to be maintained, so on Saturday, November 25, another Air Force spokesman tried to make it all sound plausible in the following words:

"From what I observed, the people, when they committed suicide, would line up in nice neat little circles, children in front of them, and as they died they folded into the interior of the circle."

Even though the story kept getting curiouser and curiouser, nearly everybody accepted it hook, line, sinker and fish!

The Guyana cover-up was world-wide in its dimensions - it had to be. In Guyana, Deputy Prime Minister Reid made the first public announcement to the Guyanese people about Jonestown on Friday afternoon, November 24, in parliament. Then he refused to answer questions, and rushed out to cries of "Shame, Shame" and "Cover-up" from parliament members.

And in the United States on Thanksgiving Day, FBI Director William Webster said that the: "FBI disaster squad had positively identified the body of James Warren Jones through fingerprint identification records." This was a lie, and at that moment Jim Jones was making good his preplanned escape from Guyana.

HOW DID JIM JONES GET OUT?

The plans for removal of Jones were laid well in advance. An ocean-going boat, well stocked with supplies and money, was waiting for him near the river town of Bartica, 35 miles southwest of Georgetown. In order to make his way to Bartica from Jonestown, Jones had a Safe Conduct Pass.

In the early morning of Thanksgiving Day, as the Battle of Guyana was beginning, Jones headed downstream toward Georgetown. Shortly after noon Guyana time his boat left the mouth of the Essequibo River into the Atlantic Ocean.

From there Jones followed a complicated itinerary which was designed to prevent his being followed; but in spite of that, he was followed. From Guyana Jones headed due east for about 330 miles and then turned south, landing near La Mere, French Guyana, at about 5:30 A.M. local time, November 27. From there he traveled by land to the capital of Cayenne, and took an airplane across the Atlantic Ocean to Freetown, Sierra Bissau Airport, arriving there approximately 7:00 P.M. local time, November 28.

There, less than two hours later, he boarded a DC-3 and took off. His route took him eastward to Tambacounda, (Senegal); from there onward into Mali with stops at Segou, Mopti, and Gao; then onward to Agadez (Niger), and Largeau (Chad). From there his plane continued to Atbaqra (Sudan), and then a short final hop to Port Sudan where he arrived shortly after 4:00 A.M., November 30, local time.

When he arrived at Port Sudan, Jones found a Turboprop Executive Transport waiting for him which was owned and operated by Israeli Intelligence. Within 20 minutes the plane took off with Jones and headed up the middle of the Red Sea toward the Gulf of Aqaba. At 6:30 A.M. local time on November 30, Jones' plane landed briefly at Elath, the back door to Israel; then on to a private airport outside of Jerusalem, arriving at 7:20 A.M. local time. From there he headed to a nearby location for an intelligence briefing.

I have information that Jones was in Israel for about 7 or 8 years then was killed by his "keepers" as being too dangerous to have around. However, I have other information that conflicts with this, so I do not know his current status.

I have heard preachers giving sermons making a point by telling about Jim Jones and Jonestown. They are really just snorting in the wind; they have no notion of truth and are merely reinforcing the brainwashing that has been laid upon them.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fire20.htm

PART 20:

LT. COL. JAMES "BO" GRITZ AND JONESTOWN

The officer in charge of all U.S. Army Special Forces for Latin America at the time of the Jonestown holocaust was Lt. Col. James "Bo" Gritz. Gritz was the original soldier after which the movie character "Rambo" was patterned. Gritz was the most decorated soldier to come out of the Vietnam war.

The Guyana massacre was carried out by Bo Gritz' men (along with British SAS troops). *Flatland* (#10) magazine, in an interview with Gritz, asked him:

Question: You trained Special Forces that went into Jonestown? What was the precise nature of the operation?

"I don't know precisely because it was a compartmentalized operation. The only thing that I do know for certain is what the Sergeant I quote coming out of Jonestown, he was insistent because he was disgusted, on writing this book. He was, without compromise, going to call it *All the Niggers Are Dead.* I asked him, 'Why would you want to entitle anything such an offensive way?' 'It doesn't make a difference what your color, your creed, your sex,' he said, 'when you are treated the way they were, that's what you are; you're a nigger, you're nothing else.' I think that those soldiers saw things that affected them and made them very angry. I've seen other things like that in combat where there have been abuses. I wrote about one of them in my book where the Captain tortured the young severely and the young Sergeant put on a swastika and said, "If I'm going to act like a Nazi I'm going to look like one.' I think that the same kind of negative impact occurred in Jonestown."

Gritz has more about Jonestown in his autobiography, *Called to Serve.* Perhaps you simply cannot believe what I am telling you. Will you believe it if told to you by the Green Beret officer in charge of the men who did the killing? He admits that the information was "compartmentalized" and it was not until later that he learned what his men were actually doing. The following information is from pages 584-587 of his book:

"The true story of the Jonestown camp in Guyana has been brought to light through an extensive investigation conducted by John Judge, from Philadelphia and Washington, D.C., and other dedicated researchers and investigators. The truth, which was thoroughly suppressed by the American media, is that it was actually a slave-labor camp run by Jones with the assistance of the CIA. Most of the information which follows is from John Judge's summary of the investigation, supplemented with information provided by Special Forces teams I had earlier trained and commanded, who were sent in to 'clean up the remains of Jonestown.'

"Most of the black and Hispanic poor people and social activists who became the inmates of the camp were brought there either by force or coercion, or lured under false pretenses, where extensive experiments of drug-induced mind control were performed on them. Even before they were moved to Guyana, reports of beatings, kidnappings, sexual abuse and mysterious deaths had leaked out to the press about the earlier Peoples' Temple in Ukiah, California.

"Jim Jones had a very interesting past which was overlooked by the media: During the time his friend Dan Mitrione was teaching torture techniques to the Brazilian and Argentineans, Jones was also sent to Brazil where his house, transportation and groceries were provided to him by the U.S. Embassy, and he frequently traveled to Belo Horizonte, the CIA headquarters in Brazil.

"Jones had been contacted in Ukiah by 'Christian missionaries' from World Vision (World Vision is a CIA controlled front operation), an evangelical order which had performed espionage work for the CIA in Southeast Asia. Most of Jones' top lieutenants were from wealthy, educated backgrounds, many with connections to the military or intelligence agencies. These were the people who were involved in setting up the bank accounts, complex legal transactions and financial agreements which put people under the control of the Peoples' Temple.

"Some of Jones' Lieutenants were: Dr. Lawrence Layton was chief of Chemical and Biological Warfare Research at Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah for many years and later worked as Director of Missile and Satellite Development at the Navy Propellant Division at Indian Head, Maryland. His wife, Lisa, was the daughter of Hugo Phillips, who had represented the huge Nazi manufacturing cartel, I.G. Farben, as a stockbroker. Their daughter, Debbie, met and married George Philip Blakey, whose parents had extensive stock holdings in Solve Drugs, a division of I.G. Farben.

"Blakey was reputed to be training mercenaries in Jonestown who were sent to work with CIA-backed UNITA forces in Angola. Terri Buford's father, Admiral Charles T. Buford, worked with Naval Intelligence. Marie Katsaris' father was minister with the Greek Orthodox Church, thought to be a conduit of CIA funding, and she claimed she had proof he was a CIA agent. The 'official survivors' were represented upon their return to the U.S. by Joseph Blatchford, an attorney who had been named in a prior scandal involving CIA infiltration of the Peace Corps.

"The people who were taken from San Francisco to begin their 'new life' in Guyana were bussed to Florida and arrived in Guyana bound and gagged, where they were forced to work 16 hours or more daily, and were fed on minimum rations. As more and more rumors began to filter back to the United States of druggings, beatings, torture, sexual humiliations and coercion at the Guyana site, Congressman Leo Ryan decided to go to Guyana and verify the situation for himself.

"Ryan had challenged the CIA's overseas operations before, as a member of the House Committee responsible for oversight on intelligence. He was co-author of the controversial Hughes-Ryan Amendment, which would have required advance CIA disclosure to the congressional committees of all planned covert operations. The amendment would be defeated shortly after his death in Jonestown.

"With Ryan on the way to Jonestown, the secrecy surrounding the camp would be broken and desperate measures would need to be taken to keep the truth from escaping, much less the inmates. In a futile attempt to test their conditioning methods, the leaders at Jonestown apparently tried to implement an actual suicide drill, but it was obviously ignored. Official stories first numbered the victims at 408, but later revised the toll upward to 913. It was claimed that some 505 bodies had been covered by those of the first 408 who had fallen directly on top of them, confusing those who had been counting from aerial photographs. - a blatant and ridiculous attempt at cover-up.

"However, the first reports were true - 408 had died, and 700 fled to the jungle where British Black Watch troops and American Special Forces were conducting 'training exercises.' Of the 700, 505 who had been deliberately shot in the jungle were added to the count of those who had supposedly committed suicide by drinking cyanide-laced Kool Aid.

"The truth is that nearly 400 inmates were forced to die by injection, according to the Chief Guyanese medical examiner, Dr. Mootoo, who arrived at Jonestown within hours of the massacre. He found needle marks on the left shoulder blades of 80-90% of the victims, and the others had been shot or strangled.

"As Chief Medical Examiner, Mootoo's testimony to the Guyanese Grand Jury led to their conclusion that all but three of the people who had died at Jonestown were murdered by 'persons unknown.' Several pictures show the gunshot wounds on the bodies as well. The U.S. Army spokesman, Lt. Col. Schuler, told the press, 'No autopsies are needed. The cause of death is not an issue here,' and the forensic doctors who later performed the autopsies at Dover, Delaware, were never made aware of Dr. Mootoo's findings.

"Guyanese troops discovered a large cache of drugs, enough to control the entire population of Georgetown, Guyana (pop. 200,000), for over a year. One footlocker contained 11,000 doses of Thorazine, a dangerous tranquilizer, and others such as sodium pentothal (truth serum), chloral hydrate (a hypnotic), demerol, Thallium (confuses thinking), haliopareael and Largatil (powerful tranquilizers) and many others. It was very evident that Jonestown was a tightly-run concentration camp, complete with medical and psychiatric experimentation.

"Direct orders to cover up the cause of death came from the top levels of the American Government. Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter's national security advisor, authorized Robert Pastor to order Lt. Col. Gordon Sumner to strip the bodies of the medical bracelets they had been forced to wear for identification. Pastor later served as Deputy Director of the CIA.

"One of the Special Forces sergeants assigned to the Jonestown massacre was so outraged about what he had witnessed that he had decided to describe the events in a book. While the Secrecy Act prevented him from detailing all that went on, SFC Inman carefully hid the entire story within his title: *All The Niggers Are Dead!* When I asked that he explain the crudeness of so naming his report, he replied, 'Sir, that's what they were. Both blacks and whites were niggers; that's what any slave is; that's what they were. That was our final radio message when the job we were assigned was finished.' I could tell by his bitterness that the government had no fear that the book would ever be printed. He just needed someone to vent his anger on.

"Guyanese Prime Minister Forbes Burnham rose to power as the result of a CIA-inspired coup against the recalcitrant Guyanese leader Cheddi Jagan. Richard Dwyer, a CIA agent working as Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy in Guyana, was shown to have been at the scene at the time of the massacre and at the airport strip, where he failed to order Guyanese troops, armed with machine guns, to defend Ryan and his staff.

"Chief Consular Officer Richard McCoy, who was described as 'close to [Jim] Jones,' worked for military intelligence and was 'on loan' from the Defense Department at the time of the massacre. Dan Webber, who was sent to the Jonestown site the day after, was also named as a CIA agent.

"U.S. Ambassador John Burke, who had served in the CIA since 1963 and had worked with Dwyer in Thailand, according to Philip Agee, tried to stop Ryan's investigation. The State Department concealed all reports of violations at Jonestown from Congressman Leo Ryan, while the Embassy regularly provided Jones with copies of all congressional inquiries under the Freedom of Information Act.

"According to current reports, Jonestown has been 're-populated' with over 1,000 Laotion Hmong people who grew opium and served under General Vang Pao during our 'secret war' in Laos and Cambodia. According to these reports, World Vision was also attempting to move the population from the island of Dominica to Jonestown.

"In addition to the already mentioned torture camp, Colonia Dignidad, another is reported to be located at Pisgua, Chile. Inside Guyana itself is another 'religious community,' named Hilltown, also operated under iron discipline, with 8,000 blacks from Guyana and the U.S. They were allowed to clear the Jonestown site of shoes and weapons, both of which are in short supply in Guyana. It may only be a matter of time before another Jonestown is exposed. It is sad to know that what started out to be an information gathering organization has turned into an instrument of the dragon."

Offline Dig

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 11:21:42 pm »
Sane posted the first part of this series in another thread titled "How deep does the rabbit hole go". I've been reading through the rest of it. Here is the excerpted parts about Jonestown.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fire17.htm


i almost wish i did not start reading that, it is some heavy shit. again my caveat...i have no clue how much is real, but it sure as shit answers a whole lot of questions. i just recommend finding multiple sources before going around the sheeple half cocked.
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2009, 11:41:24 pm »
"Dr. Peter David Beter"

wow, his name is Peter Beter? What a horrible name. I'll bet adolescence was painful. lol. ;D

Offline TimeLady

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 12:01:23 am »
1. I highly doubt there's a Lunar Base

2. purity balls are some of the creepiest things I've ever read about
Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2009, 12:02:32 am »
1. I highly doubt there's a Lunar Base

2. purity balls are some of the creepiest things I've ever read about

+1

 :D

Offline Dig

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2009, 12:04:19 am »
1. I highly doubt there's a Lunar Base

2. purity balls are some of the creepiest things I've ever read about

actually that is not the first time i heard about the lunar base and it ain't coming from ATS either.
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

Orgetorix

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2009, 12:40:35 am »
i almost wish i did not start reading that, it is some heavy shit. again my caveat...i have no clue how much is real, but it sure as shit answers a whole lot of questions. i just recommend finding multiple sources before going around the sheeple half cocked.

Well I just got done reading it all, and quite a bit of it checks out. Not sure about the rest of it. I'd have to say it's a 75/25 split between verifiable and un-verifiable. I know though that I've heard of a moon base now from 5 independent sources, and I wouldn't put a Mars base out of the realm of possibility. Everyone has to remember that the technology at the top is atleast 20 years in advance of what is currently admitted to the public.   

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2009, 12:45:37 am »
Orgetorix, I think Sane was talking about me coming to conclusions about people I can't make total connections between, and I realize his point. (Well, I know what I'M gonna be doing tonight--staying up, researching this.Sigh...at least tomorrow's a holiday--I can sleep in  :))

Offline Dig

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2009, 12:51:48 am »
Orgetorix, I think Sane was talking about me coming to conclusions about people I can't make total connections between, and I realize his point. (Well, I know what I'M gonna be doing tonight--staying up, researching this.Sigh...at least tomorrow's a holiday--I can sleep in  :))

your poor husband, tell him thanks for giving you so much freedom that you can contribute to all of us
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

Offline heavyhebrew

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2009, 01:21:18 am »
Wow, a lot to digest. Never heard of World Vision/Teen Mania. Kind of like summer Jew school on roids and a healthy dose of Pentecostal crazy.


oh man that shit creeps me out, like watching The Wicker Man while in a "Clockwork Orange" chair surrounded by druids reading Blavatsky

All fun and games until a naked dwarf drenched in blood comes out and starts reading poetry set to Danish Death Metal.

That is when we pull our guns out and purge the unclean! Burn everything, take nothing.
We work jobs we hate to pay for stuff we don't need to impress people we don't like. Am I the crazy one here?

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2009, 01:51:49 am »
Wow, a lot to digest. Never heard of World Vision/Teen Mania. Kind of like summer Jew school on roids and a healthy dose of Pentecostal crazy.

All fun and games until a naked dwarf drenched in blood comes out and starts reading poetry set to Danish Death Metal.

That is when we pull our guns out and purge the unclean! Burn everything, take nothing.

lol, yeah, they shop at Target religiously and act like they don't have sex hormones (or rather, deny them, being ridiculously celibate to the point of rules actually being signed saying that a person "will not communicate with" ANYONE in a romantic way) for the first year, no matter WHO you're with before you leave home for the honor academy, you ain't getting any for the whole year, not by text, not by phone, not online, not by snail mail, and DEFINITELY not in person.

They also promise that they won't communicate with relatives or friends in a way that reflects negatively on the academy or communicate with friends or relatives who are "negative" about it.

But they are "screened" pretty well before they go to make sure that they are the type of people who aren't likely to rebel against the REAL establishment, they just kind of do what they're told, and really, really believe that ratting out your fellow "soldiers for christ" because they were texting their boyfriend is the "right thing to do"
btw, I thought this was pretty interesting

http://www.acquiretheevidence.com/soap-deodorant-jesus-main.html

"...Keeping in mind that they've labeled the act of advertising, and targeting the teen market, part of their justification for their "BattlePlan," let's look over this list of people who've held important positions in Teen Mania - one of whom was important enough to have been paid a larger salary than that earned by Teen Mania's founder, Ron Luce. One thing ties them all together - they've all worked for one of the nation's biggest advertisers, Procter & Gamble, in roles involving sales, advertising, marketing, promotions and product management.

    *George Babbes, member of Teen Mania's Board of Directors,1 was Group Product Manager with Oral-B Laboratories, The Gillette Company, 1992-93, and Brand Manager for Procter & Gamble, 1987-1992. In 1989 he was the winner of Procter & Gamble's "Promotions That Work" international competition.2 Babbes is a lifelong friend of Ron Luce, and was quoted in a Regent Business Review article saying that some of the strategic planning for Teen Mania in its early years occurred in "the 'war room' at P&G."3 Now a professor at Azuza Pacific University's School of Business and Management, his doctoral dissertation focused on, among other things, "the impact of conceptual metaphors on consumers."4 (There you go, guys)
    *Tom Muccio, member of Teen Mania's "President's Council,"5 "is the recently retired President of Procter & Gamble's Global Customer Teams. He was with Procter & Gamble for 35 years in a variety of sales and marketing assignments in both the U.S. and abroad." 6
    *Rick Brenner, Teen Mania's Chief Operating Officer (2002-2004),7 "began his career in Market Research, followed by six years at Leo Burnett Advertising where he managed accounts including Green Giant and Procter & Gamble packaged soap brands. Following his tenure at Leo Burnett, Mr. Brenner spent eight years at Procter & Gamble where he was responsible for marketing and brand management for consumer products including Clarion Cosmetics, Noxzema Skin Care Products, and Secret and Sure Antiperspirants." He is now president of a Florida startup company. 8"

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2009, 02:27:04 am »
whoa, guys, check it out:


http://www.blogher.com/further-disturbing-info-honor-academy

Further disturbing info on "Honor Academy"
by Mrs.Micah

I've been looking around online to see what else I can find about the place where my little-brother-in-law is right now. Ran across this:

excerpted from Rolling Stone 4/19/07:

Further reinforcement comes from the Academy's required "Life Transforming Events," the most grueling of which is ESOAL (Emotionally Stretching Opportunity of a Lifetime). [Ron] Luce was reluctant to share details about the "Opportunity," a fifty-to-ninety-hour sleep-deprived endurance test, but a short video of the 2005 ESOAL provides revealing glimpses: students weeping and dragging giant wooden crosses on their shoulders; a boy rolling and puking across a field while a senior intern "sergeant" in camouflage and a helmet urges him on; a platoon of weeping girls; a shell-shocked boy mumbling into the camera, "Don't know what time it is.... Don't know what matters. ... Don't even necessarily know who I can trust." (my emphasis)

WTF? No wonder LBIL is scared of it.


wth... :(


6/27/9 - comments have been closed due to the age of the original post. - Denise

Offline TimeLady

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2009, 02:44:49 am »
yeah, this "honor academy" definitely sounds like a cult

a very creepy cult where you know ron luce is getting lots of delicious loli

- come to think about it, the survivors of People's Temple said that Jim Jones coerced them into sex - EVERYONE said that
Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 02:50:48 am »
Ok, it just moved into the "weird/creepy" section REAL quick:

"Mike Yaconelli vs. Ron Luce"
http://www.newlife-glastonbury.org/blog/2009/05/19/mike-yaconelli-vs-ron-luce/
Posted by Eric Stillman on May 19th, 2009 under Discipleship, NewLife   Print This Post  Print This Post

Two of the most influential voices in my life during my youth pastor years were Mike Yaconelli and Ron Luce.  They were two men who loved Jesus, loved teenagers and youth pastors, but could not have been more different in their approach to youth ministry.  Yaconelli was the co-founder of Youth Specialties, an organization that provided tons of resources and training to youth pastors across the world, but during his later years became a man with an almost singular focus on the importance of helping teens and youth pastors develop intimate relationships with Jesus.  He hated how youth ministry had become so focused on big events, big numbers, and attractive personalities, and loved to honor those men and women who may not have fit the stereotypical mold but because of their willingness to love teens were making an eternal difference.  He would tell stories about 75 year-old grandmothers, rough-around-the-edges truckers, and scared youth leaders everywhere who just wanted to love young people to Jesus.  Yaconelli frequently boasted about being the pastor of the “slowest growing church in America”, a small community church out in California that had shrunk since his arrival, but based on his stories seemed to be made up of a lovable band of misfits who would dare to follow Jesus wherever He led, even if it involved doing things that normal churches might not do.  His message was a simple message that always reminded me of Jesus’ incredible love and grace over us, no matter how far we fell short of the ideal.

 And then there was Ron Luce.  In some ways, Ron seemed to epitomize everything that Yaconelli was speaking against.  He also loved Jesus, loved teens and their youth pastors, but was a man of tremendous vision and passion who was always looking to do something bigger and with greater impact.  He founded an organization called Teen Mania, putting on high energy conferences around the country called Acquire the Fire, and organizing dozens of mission trips for teens every year to places around the globe.  He created a discipleship school called the Honor Academy, wrote books and produced videos about growing your youth ministry and reaching teens for Christ, and seemed to do it all from a perpetual spiritual high.  When we went to Acquire the Fire, teenagers inevitably came away “on fire” for God, ready to conquer the world and defeat all enemies in their path.  And we youth pastors all came away determined to not let the fire go out, but to challenge our teens to higher and greater depths in their walk with the Lord.

 Mike Yaconelli and Ron Luce were two who loved Jesus and loved youth ministry, but who could not have been more different in their approach.  I resonated so deeply with Yaconelli and his Jesus who passionately loved us and was full of compassion and grace towards the broken, the ordinary, those who just never measured up to the person they knew God wanted them to be.  
But something in my spirit just longed for what I saw in Ron Luce, a man who you knew was up at the crack of dawn to seek the Lord on his knees, who lived with passionate abandon for God, with a desire to see the gospel reach the far ends of the earth and to do everything he did with excellence unto the Lord.

 I also realized that there were downsides to both approaches.  With Yaconelli, his emphasis on intimacy with Jesus and the grace of our Savior made it tempting for me to become complacent, to rest in the accepting love of God and never challenge myself to move past that.  On the other hand, with Luce, I could see how easy it was for teenagers to equate spiritual maturity with always being “on fire” for God and to believe God’s love for us was based on our performance.  Therefore, when the passion faded (usually about 24 hours after an Acquire the Fire conference), they would come to see themselves in some sort of spiritual backslide, never living up to the Ron Luce Jesus who seemed to be like a coach on the side of the track with a stopwatch, yelling “Faster!!!  Faster!!!” at us until we finally gave up.

 These past five weeks as I have preached on biblical assurance, especially focusing on the tests given in 1 John that evaluate the genuineness of our faith, I have been reminded of these two men.  John gives strong challenges in his letter, like how the one who knows God will not continue in unrepentant sin, will not walk in the darkness, and will not hate his brother.  The goal of the series was in line with 1 John 5:13:  “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life;” I wanted to give assurance to those who truly do know Jesus and have eternal life, while creating a real doubt based on Scripture in the hearts of those who may not truly know Him.  But I also realize that we all fall short in many ways and never measure up to the man or woman we know God wants us to be.  I do not want to leave anyone believing that unless you are living perfectly 24-7 and always desiring God in your day-to-day life, that you are not truly a believer.  God is not the track coach yelling at you to go faster, shaking his head at you every time you miss a quiet time or don’t tell your co-worker about Jesus.  God is a Father who sees every believer as perfect in his sight not because they had their quiet time but because of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

 At the same time, 1 John is meant to challenge you.  It is meant to be a mirror in some ways that you hold up in order to see whether your life shows evidence that God has done and continues to do a supernatural work in your life.  Has He saved you from your sin?  Is He continuing to sanctify you, to discipline the sin out of you and replace it with His eternal life, His heart, His love for others?  We must always hold these two truths in tension – God loves you just as you are, but loves you too much to let you stay the way you are.  He wants you to be just like Jesus.

I think that the only way to become like Jesus is to have both kinds of people in your life – the Mike Yaconellis who remind you of the perfect love of God, full of grace and intimacy, drawing you to worship Him and seek Him and trust Him as a Father who loves you; and the Ron Luces, who will not let you stay as you are, but want to continually challenge you to greater depths in your walk with Jesus, to always give Him your all so that the gospel might go forth to all your nations. The Yaconellis are better at communicating the beautiful love of God that is extended to all of us, no matter how much we stumble and fall, while the Luces excel at communicating the love of God that calls us higher, that exhorts us to spend our lives on that which truly satisfies.  I encourage you to seek both of those voices in your life, to understand their strengths and weaknesses, and to allow God to use both of them in your life for His glory." (emphasis always added) ;)

Is it just me, or was that argument a little one-sided?

Offline TimeLady

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 02:52:24 am »
perpetual spiritual high?

sure that isn't code for "crystal meth"?
Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 02:56:07 am »
I swear, there are so many dead links right now about the whole ministry (except theirs, of course)--you just gotta wonder what they're up to out on that ranch

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 03:11:28 am »
This is also something to consider:

http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/06/is-teen-mania-cult-conclusion.html

"So, do I think Teen Mania is a cult? Honestly, at this point in my life, I would not classify it as a cult. I would however, classify the Honor Academy as a very spiritually abusive environment. For many, it takes years to recover. Sadly, some never recover.

The nature of the Acquire the Fire conferences are very different from the Honor Academy. I did meet the Lord at an Acquire the Fire conference, as I know many do, so I am hesitant to say anything profoundly negative about it. Like anything else, it has its issues. However, I am much more concerned with the effects of a year long program like the Honor Academy and will limit this blog solely to the discussion of the internship.

If you are thinking about attending the Honor Academy, or if your child is thinking about attending, this blog is for you. I am not writing this because I am bitter, but because I want to spare others the pain of spiritual abuse that I and many, many others have experienced.

So, who am I and why would you want to listen to me? (AKA - how do I know this isn't just a nut job with a grudge?)

I grew up in a Christian household. I attend an evangelical church. I am a believer. I support missionaries. I sponsor children in foreign countries. I attend small groups. I am well traveled, well read and well educated. I am a professional. I have continued to walk with the Lord in spite of my devastating experience at the Honor Academy, though it has not been easy.

It is my hope that someone out there will be able to avoid the shipwreck that is the Honor Academy by learning both from my story and others."

Offline TBH

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 03:27:11 am »
There are a lot of articles on that last blog you posted.  I'm going to start reading.  Nice finds socio

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2009, 03:33:00 am »
http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/
Control Oriented Leadership
The first sign of spiritual abuse is control-oriented leadership. Let's talk about how this trait plays out at the Honor Academy.

Here are some of Dave Hasz's own comments to illustrate. Click on the statement to see the source link:


    Question from an Intern: "Should you absolutely submit to your superiors even if you disagree with their decisions?"

    Dave Hasz: If the leadership is godly.



    "Rebellion I believe is questioning your leadership without giving them the benefit of the doubt." (3rd post down)

(HUH?)



What is rebellion? According to wikipedia, it is a refusal of obedience. When is it sinful to rebel? There are many acts of civil disobedience (the civil rights movement) and other forms of rebellion that were completely appropriate. As far as I can tell, the only sinful rebellion is rebellion against God. But, here, Dave Hasz is saying that disagreeing with his leadership and views is rebellious, with the implication that you are sinning against God when you disagree with Him. I have experienced this personally as have many, many people.

It's important to understand here that many of us had legitimate questions and concerns about things going on in the internship. We were there with a right heart, wanting to seek God and know Him more. Why else would you pay money and spend a year of your life there? Though we approached him with respect, our concerns were not treated in the same way. Mostly, Dave would give a 1 minute answer and summarily dismiss our concerns with reasons why everything Teen Mania does is God's will and why we should not question it if we want to be godly people. And if that didn't convince us, well, we were just rebellious.

On the contrary, the Bible exhorts us to test the spirits, look at the fruit, to be like the Bereans who tested the apostles word to see if it was true, etc. I find it quite suspicious that Dave would insist on what is essentially blind obedience. We are called to be ultimately obedient to no man - only to Jesus Christ.

Am I advocating that there should be no rules or standards at the Honor Academy? No, not at all. Every organization needs basic rules to function. However, these rules do not need to encompass the breadth and depth that they do, nor do they need to insist that secondary and tertiary matters of faith cannot be disagreed upon.

No matter what the HA propaganda says, the actual culture is that you cannot disagree without feeling the sting of disapproval and rejection.* If you disagree you are labeled rebellious. In some cases they even try to perform an excorcism on you to remove the rebellious spirit.

The saddest thing about all this is that they tell you that the Lord also views you through the eyes of disapproval and rejection. That you are being rebellious towards Him. This is probably the one thing that messed me up the most.

Consider if you really want to put yourself, or your child, under a person who demands to be obeyed without question. Does that sound healthy to you? Does that sound like someone who loves people? Or someone who loves his own authority?

Most importantly, does that sound like Jesus?

*If you don't speak in tongues, get ready for that disapproval. You'll be judged as less of a Christian than those that do.
Posted by Recovering Alumni at 8:25 PM 0 comments
Labels: cult, dangerous doctrine
What is Spiritual Abuse? Part 2

I also found this list of abusive symptoms rather intriguing:

Signs of an abusive church (edited for length).

    1) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches are into power and control. Enroth writes, "The spiritual autocrat, the religious dictator, attempts to compel subordination; the true Christian leader can legitimately only elicit fellowership." Within a church context a legitimate leader promotes cooperation among church members, not dominate-submissive relationships.

    2)Abusive church leaders in abusive churches are into dichotomous thinking. With them everything is black-white, either-or, this-that, us-them. Dichotomous thinking is generally expressed in overt or implied terms such as "we the true followers of Jesus" versus those others "who are not as spiritual as we are." Of course, dichotomous abusive church leaders are the judge and jury on who is or who is not spiritual, who is or who is not fully walking with Jesus.

    3) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches are into legalistic perfectionism and perfectionist legalism. Again, legalisms are not about holiness; they are about power and control. Naturally, activities like fasting, keeping away from worldly amusements, attending numerous prayer meetings may in fact be spiritual and wholesome activities. However, when these activities are extreme, rigid, or excessive then we are talking about addiction, not spirituality.

    4) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches have a tendency towards isolationism. Some of this isolationism may be more social than physical. Abusive groups will not mix with the impure or with the unholy. With them light has no fellowship with darkness, and they are very clear who is in the light and who is in the dark. Thus, they tend to isolate themselves from the world and even from other Christian groups.

    5) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches are obsessed with discipline and even excommunication. In some abusive Christian circles, to question the church leader(s) means questioning God Himself. Abusive Christians are so certain that they are right and that they have the mind of Christ that they can be extremely punitive if they are not obeyed.

    6) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches discourage church members' having contacts with people outside the fellowship, including family members.

    7) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches install surveillance systems (read "pastoral care") within their fellowships. Of course, for abusive church leaders a surveillance system is all about a spiritual concern regarding people's souls and how to best pastorally and brotherly look after the sheep of the flock. However, these surveillance systems go way beyond pastoral care. They are about power and control.

    8) Abusive church leaders in abusive churches promote a Pied Piper mentality, especially among young people. For example, a youth leader who becomes a Pied Piper and has all the youth of the congregation running after him is a bad scene. There is no room for a personality cult in a legitimate non-abusing Christian fellowship.


Wow - it's like they wrote this directly about the Honor Academy. With the possible exception of number 6, every single one of these applies. I don't know what else to say, except that if you are considering the Honor Academy internship or even if you are already in it, run away and don't look back.

I can't imagine how any current or past interns could possibly refute any of these charges.

Just because your ministry is Christian or your organization is supposedly doing "great things for God" does not make this behavior acceptable."
(actually, they were doing #6--I talked to two people who actually are alumni--they both confirmed this)

Posted by Recovering Alumni at 10:33 AM 0 comments
Labels: cult, dangerous doctrine
Tuesday, June 30, 2009
What is Spiritual Abuse?

In his book, Churches That Abuse, Ronald Enroth points out that spiritual abuse can often be found in churches that are doctrinally sound, conservatively Christian, thoroughly Biblical, and zealously maintaining the fundamentals of the Faith. It's a myth to think that just because an organization as fundamental or evangelical beliefs, that they are safe.

He goes on to identify ten traits of spiritually abusive environments: control-oriented leadership, spiritual elitism, manipulation of members, perceived persecution, lifestyle rigidity, emphasis on experience, suppression of dissent, harsh discipline of members, denunciation of other churches, and the painful exit process.

Every single one of these is present in force at the Honor Academy. Over the coming weeks, we will look at each of these in detail and how they apply to Teen Mania.

If you are an alumni that has suffered spiritually, emotionally or mentally because of your experience at the Honor Academy, please write me at recovering alumni at hotmail dot com. I would like to hear your story. Nothing will be published without your consent. I'm especially interested in hearing from recent alumni.
Posted by Recovering Alumni at 10:54 PM 1 comments
Recovering from What?
Recovery from spiritual abuse is a long road. Experiencing betrayal by someone you trusted spiritually is an agnozing thing. The last place you expect to be wounded is in the Body of Christ. The emotions are intense and brutal: confusion, hopelessness, hurt, abandonment, depression, despair, and suicidal thoughts are just some of the things we've experienced as former interns.

Here is a short list of what recovery has meant to me. Feel free to chime in with your thoughts in the comments.


- Recovery means I'm not guilt ridden.

- Recovery means my actions aren't based on fear.

- Recovery means Dave's disappointment with me doesn't equal God's
dissapointment with me.

- Recovery means not having to live up to someone's false
expectations of spirituality and greatness

- Recovery means I don't have to constantly live in judgement.

- Recovery means freedom.
Posted by Recovering Alumni at 12:50 AM 0 comments
the Bible According to Teen Mania #3
All our righteous acts are like filthy rags what make us perfect; we all shrivel up like a leaf,and like the wind our sins sweep us away form a team of spiritually elite leadership who can never fail.

Isaiah 64:6b (remix)
Posted by Recovering Alumni at 12:12 AM 0 comments
Labels: the Bible according to Teen Mania
Saturday, June 27, 2009
The Sin that Disqualifies You
In 2 posts dated Jan 28 and Jan 30, 2008, Dave Hasz started this dialogue on his blog:

    In other words if you were going to let someone speak into your life about your spiritual condition or your pursuit of God what would "qualify" or "disqualify" them from speaking. This could get a bit controversial.

    If someone drank would that impact your thinking? Should it? What if they smoked? What if they chewed? What if they told dirty jokes? What if they were recently saved? ... What if he liked to cuss? What if she questioned God's existence seriously at least once a year? What if this person was massively insecure?

    Some of you stated that you would read it anyway because everyone sins.... this is a bit of an odd statement. Of course everyone sins, but some more than others. There are books that have been written by authors who are walking in victory over sin - why not read those?
Apparently many of you have much more time in your lives than I do, I cannot read every book written, there just is not time. So I have to be pretty selective. If you knew that the author was saved, but wrestling with all the issues mentioned in the previous post would you spend your time allowing that individual to speak into your life on spiritual matters?

That is an excellent question, Dave. Let me think about some of my favorite authors and Bible characters to see how they "measure up" against your litmus test.

Moses was disobedient - he didn't even get to see the promised land. And I really thought he would be "always honorable." Oh well, guess I'll rip out the first five books of my Bible.

King David was an adulterer and a murderer. I am going to stop reading the Psalms right away. I definitely don't want that kind of person influencing me spiritually.

The prophet Elijah was suicidal at times, so I better not follow his example either. Too bad his adversity quotient just wasn't higher.

Abraham was a liar. Count him out.

Job questioned God. Who does he think he is anyway?

Gideon - man, talk about insecurity. Who qualified him to be a leader?!

Solomon was a disobedient polygamist who worshipped many gods. Wisest man ever, my ass!

Mother Teresa struggled with lifelong depression and doubt. What a loser.

Brennan Manning is an alcoholic, so pardon me while I burn my copy of "The Ragamuffin Gospel."

Ted Haggard is a homosexual. Good thing he never accepted your invitation to speak to at Battlecry events. Oh wait, nevermind.

Gee, now that I think about it, it is pretty hard to tell what kind of sin is in a person's life. After all, how can you see what is in a person's heart?

And really, the most important question is: What sin can possibly disqualify someone from being used by God?

Well, there isn't one. Because their righteousness never qualified them in the first place.

And that's where we disagree. "


some of this is pretty serious, I'm gonna send this person an email by monday at the latest to see if I can confirm or deny any of this.

Offline TBH

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Offline TBH

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2009, 03:57:34 am »
hmmmm



http://books.google.com/books?id=YUx2ssqH4qIC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=who+is+ron+luce%27s+father\&source=bl&ots=Vhuic2UxhO&sig=TKG5_lNeQdaTG5JI48cmI1rH-R8&hl=en&ei=TqdOSvfwJ437tger3pyrBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9

p. 168, guys


very nice find, i figured some of the graduates of this honor academy would go on into politics.  It's perfect, they would never question if the agenda they are being driven to push is the right thing or not.

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2009, 04:06:07 am »
very nice find, i figured some of the graduates of this honor academy would go on into politics.  It's perfect, they would never question if the agenda they are being driven to push is the right thing or not.

exactly. no wonder it's been so hard to wake people up around here. i guess staying up a little late was the right thing to do, huh?

according to their "handbook" (http://web.archive.org/web/20040612224106/http://www.honoracademy.com/downloads/HA_Handbook.pdf)
"You are required to exercise a total of 4 times every
week. You are also required to participate in corporate
exercise and test-outs as scheduled.
Both corporate
exercise and intramural games count toward your
weekly exercise.

(Um, Yeah, hello gattaca!)
• Corporate Fasting Days
Every other week, one day will be set aside for fasting and
prayer.
During this time we will seek God and draw closer
to Him. We will meet in the auditorium for prayer during
your scheduled lunchtime."

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2009, 04:28:03 am »
From http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/search/label/cult

"This question has come up time and time again. As an intern, we joked about how the townsfolk nearby thought we were a cult. It was funny, because of course we weren't a cult!

It wasn't until several years later, when I came across a long list of cult characteristics that I began to seriously ask this question. I was really suprised to find that many of the characteristics on that list were present in the Honor Academy. Unfortunately, I can't find that exhaustive list, but here is one provied by the International Cultic Studies Association - with my Teen Mania specific comments in italics.

- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
True. Whether or not its explicitly encouraged by the leadership, interns highly venerate both Ron Luce and Dave Hasz. In fact, I've seen an Honor Academy Alumni website forum where interns felt the need to clarify that Ron Luce is not God. Of course, nobody "says" he is God, but his teachings and personality (as well as Dave Hasz, the director of the Honor Academy) have become so synonomous with God and with God's will that it becomes very hard to make a distinction. If anyone criticizes or questions anyone in leadership, they are immediately pounced on by fellow interns and told they should only speak about it privately to the person in question. The assumption is always that the concerned party must have misunderstood or that the leadership has a valid (unknown) reason for doing/saying whatever they did.

Oh yeah, btw, the townsfolk DID see them as somewhat of a cult after a while, although no one would say it.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=DM&p_theme=dm&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0ED8226F3937EC94&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2009, 10:41:26 am »
That little burrough in Texas is unusual in that the Teen Mania campus was the site of Last Days ministries, Winkie Pratney's library is literally around the corner as YWAM is HQ'd there, along with the hospital ship ministry. It's a real blast from the past if you miss the eighties just stop by they'll give you a filler-up of "Jesus is coming soon ha-ha, ho-ho, he-he..."ala Dr. Demento...."




LOL, it's called "mercy ships"

Offline heavyhebrew

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2009, 02:52:03 pm »
Man, wtf is wrong with Texas?

Just kidding, second favorite state. So, this teen mania/honor academy things reads like Moonies without Rev. Moony.
We work jobs we hate to pay for stuff we don't need to impress people we don't like. Am I the crazy one here?

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2009, 11:47:05 pm »
Seems like, from what I'm reading, it's not as much Ron Luce's fault that all this weird stuff went on as much as it's been David Hasz, who's rhetoric about "doing what your superior says without ever questioning them" checks out more than anything else right now. The navy-seals-like-training apparently was supposed to have stopped years ago, although there's not really much to confirm that any of this has stopped, although there's a lot of supporters of teen mania who act like these kinds of institutions NEVER turn into something different and sinister, and they maintain that these young adults aren't controlled at all, and that anyone who is saying anything different is just "looking for someone to blame their own problems on"...in other words, they think there's absolutely no possibility that these groups ever get infiltrated by bad people or that a director on a power trip would never, ever use his position to take advantage of people's deepest fear of "not being an acceptable vessel for God" and turn it on them to make them feel like questioning him or questioning what the organization tells you is akin to questioning God Himself.

I'm still trying to get a hold of the person who just made that blog at blogher.com. She or he just made the blog a few months ago, meaning if he/she was serious about the allegations, then he/she probably just got out of the program, either as a drop-out or an actual grad, i don't know. I'll keep ya'll updated.

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2009, 12:13:20 pm »
this is from 2005 (their ESOAL video--apparently, someone was gonna do a documentary about it--I'll look it up):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxwRF5xKDnw


I'll let ya'll come up with your own conclusions

Offline heavyhebrew

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2009, 10:11:06 pm »
What a messed up place.

Say, this is a video for Ranger training, see any correlations?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyxVRSOKN3g


BTW, Rangers, kicked in any roofs lately?  ;D
I so do not miss RIP.
We work jobs we hate to pay for stuff we don't need to impress people we don't like. Am I the crazy one here?

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2009, 02:37:18 pm »
I got an email from the blogger, btw:

"Hi ------,
 
Thanks for writing. I'll be glad to go check out your forum and see how I can help. I can assure you that everything on my blog that is written from my personal experience is 100% true. I have several alumni writing their stories and I will hopefully be able to post those in the next week. While I can't verify everything they say, I know many of them personally and have no reason to doubt them.
 

It's been a while since I was at the HA, so not all my experience is current. However, from what I'm hearing from more recent alumni it's only gotten worse over time....Anyway, feel free to ask whatever you want and I'll do my best to help you. I think its important that people know its a dangerous, abusive environment so they don't have to experience the pain that I suffered.
 
Thanks,
 
Recovering Alumni"

Offline RecoveringAlumni

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2009, 03:34:44 pm »
So, I haven't read everything posted above....but the idea of TM having any involvement with actual military operations or anything covert with or w/o the US government is highly doubtful. They definitely have an unhealthy fascination with the miliary and use their tactics in their training, but as far as I can tell don't ever advocate the use of violence. As far as their involvement with right wing politics, I think its more wishful thinking/ambition than anything....Of course, Ron Luce is a big cheese in the evangelical world, but as for actual political power - I don't believe he has any.



sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2009, 03:38:22 pm »
So, I haven't read everything posted above....but the idea of TM having any involvement with actual military operations or anything covert with or w/o the US government is highly doubtful. They definitely have an unhealthy fascination with the miliary and use their tactics in their training, but as far as I can tell don't ever advocate the use of violence. As far as their involvement with right wing politics, I think its more wishful thinking/ambition than anything....Of course, Ron Luce is a big cheese in the evangelical world, but as for actual political power - I don't believe he has any.




That's really good to hear.  (the very first part anyway)

sociostudent

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2009, 05:57:21 am »
Well, I don't know...

I think TM needs to be more careful who they work with regarding their advertising execs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocquigny
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E7D7123FF935A15757C0A9609C8B63

Over the years Tocquigny has worked with a number of Blue Chip companies including:

    * Dell
    * HP
    * AMD
    * Seagate Technologies
    * IBM
    * Caterpillar
    * Valero
    * Constellation New Energy
    * Symbol Technologies: makes RFID systems
    * Siemens
    * World Vision
    * Teen Mania Ministries

    * Regent University
    * Message Labs
    * The Washington Times

Tocquigny has the longest continuous agency relationship with Dell.[citation needed]

Offline heavyhebrew

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2009, 03:56:28 pm »
Recovbering Alumni,

I highly doubt that TeenMania is running some paramilitary covert training facility. One of the purposes of high end military training like RIP and SEAL training is to break down your ego and test your mental resilience. Afterward, recruits would have a deep sense of belonging because they accomplished something very difficult in the face of extremity.

And sleep deprivation combined with verbal harangue's and physical hardship tied to religious indoctrination reeks of cult programming.
We work jobs we hate to pay for stuff we don't need to impress people we don't like. Am I the crazy one here?

luckee1

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Re: World Vision's Web/ron luce/teen mania ministries
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2009, 04:39:47 pm »
Recovbering Alumni,

I highly doubt that TeenMania is running some paramilitary covert training facility. One of the purposes of high end military training like RIP and SEAL training is to break down your ego and test your mental resilience. Afterward, recruits would have a deep sense of belonging because they accomplished something very difficult in the face of extremity.

And sleep deprivation combined with verbal harangue's and physical hardship tied to religious indoctrination reeks of cult programming.


It also has much to do with mental programming and auto-response training.  I wish I hadn't come across this thread.  My head hurts.  WOW.  This is some heavy duty stuff.

Welcome to PP, RecoveringAlumni I know we have already benefitted and will continue to benefit from your posts.