Uncovered: The REAL 13th Amendment Will Indict, Prosecute, & Kill the NWO!!

[Geolibertarian]

how would we enforce this to the enforcers?

That's actually a legitimate question, in view of the fact that we can't even get U.S. politicians to adhere to the Amendments that aren't hidden.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=113520.msg713044#msg713044

[DarkKnightNomeD]

  It was fully ratified, beyond any doubt! And was the law for over fifty years.  The list above from the disinfo wiki site, does not include Virginia which had passed ratification in February of 1812... but the records were burned when the British set fire to Washington City and Richmond during the War of 1812. However, in it's March 12th 1819 state laws it once again appears in it's rightful place...

 This is the Amendment that I constantly make reference to... the one amendment that must retake it's rightful place... and the other Amendments that must be looked at for possible constitutional conflict, beginning with the present 14th amendment, which is actually the 15th amendment and then adjusted in their title number. In any case, I have personally viewed the original 13th amendment in its proper place in a book of law. Then the now 13th amendment is shown as the 14th, and the present 14th amendment labeled as the 15th...

 This is in an original volume of the 1868 Territorial Laws of Colorado, which I found in the state capitol library archives, back in 1995... these same postings of the amendments can be found in the territorial laws of Wyoming from 1872 as well.

 In any case the most complete website on this subject, that gives a complete guide, and background, as well as being the repository for people who actually did the lion's share of the discovery and exoneration of the TONA 13th, is to be found here...

Titles of Nobility Amendment, the Real Thirteenth Amendment

 These people are the real deal, and have been at this now for well over 25 years.  I am proud to say that I am a contributor to their fund, and tout the virtue of their research around the Internet as much as possible... Go in and click around, here is a page that shows the 1819 Revised Code and statutes of Virginia.

The 1819 Virginia Revised Code

 Suzanne is a committed researcher... of the highest order. They had been searching the archives in Washington, as well as in Virginia for a copy of the 1819 or earlier laws of Virginia, finally she got access to the State Department, and there is where they found it...

 The amount of research, and the depth of research that these guys conduct, can be quickly seen once you begin reading their site's pages. In the linked material alone is a monumental wealth of information, and the evidence is overwhelming... You will find that the amendment suddenly disappeared in February of 1865, and was quickly replaced by a new amendment, that already had a title... the 13th amendment... even before it was quickly ratified by the states in 1865, just after its author had been murdered at Ford's Theatre.

--Oldyoti

"I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he
 pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in
no way interferes with any other men's rights."
~ Abraham Lincoln

Edit the Pages JT, create an Account, and give all the Info you have on the Discussion,I don't think it is "LOCKED", i think it is open to EDIT but I am sure after you submit your info and links, it will be reviewed by someone who will most likely finalize/OK the edit.

[JTCoyoté]

how would we enforce this to the enforcers JT?  

The very same way that we do everything else in the movement... and it is all one movement by the way. Each person wakes up two other people to the facts the understanding of this 13th TONA Amendment aspect of the movement... Not everyone is going to understand it completely the first few times you broach it... but as people begin to take it upon themselves to get more information.  They will cease rolling their eyes back in their head while waxing into the death rattle of, "That's not true. I don't want to hear it... I don't want to know."

There is no sudden magic silver bullet. It takes persistence, we have been over 140 years now, thinking all of this was okay... not seeing our own enslavement. The majority of people today are in that state of affairs, yet we are very close to the tipping point.

In the last two years, our numbers have increased almost tenfold... many are one issue people... but they know that there are other people who are one issue folks of a different stripe, yet still in the liberty-patriot-truth movement... the only thing you can do is persist with the true information...

JTCoyoté

"A long habit of NOT thinking a thing wrong
gives it a superficial appearance of being right."
~Thomas Paine, from Common Sense, 1776.

[Ghost in the Machine]

Load those muskets, This could lead us to freedom if we can some how enforce it... This would kill the NWO atleast here in America...

[xfahctor]

 so what is the first step, is this something that should be brought up in court? Do states begin passing resolutions to have this reinstated officialy? Knowlege is one thing, but it must be backed by strong action, what specific action must now be taken to have this reinsated and enforced?

[JTCoyoté]

so what is the first step, is this something that should be brought up in court? Do states begin passing resolutions to have this reinstated officialy? Knowlege is one thing, but it must be backed by strong action, what specific action must now be taken to have this reinsated and enforced?

Go here and begin reading and then click around as the tentacles of the story unwind...

http://www.amendment-13.org/

Arm yourself with the facts, then socialize... The way this Amendment will be re-instituted is through the Constitutional process the founders laid out in the 10th Amendment, namely the state 10th Amendment sovereignty movement...

Read my posts here and those of other folks who are Constitutionally savvy... this thread, and this entire 9th & 10th Amendment Board holds the key!

JTCoyoté

"...the State of Colorado hereby claims sovereignty, under the 10th
Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, over all powers
not otherwise enumerated and granted to the federal government by
the United States Constitution." ~From HJR-94-1035, The First
10th Amendment State Sovereignty Resolution, 1994

[xfahctor]

Go here and begin reading and then click around as the tentacles of the story unwind...

http://www.amendment-13.org/

Arm yourself with the facts, then socialize... The way this will be re-instituted is through the Constitutional process the founders laid out in the 10th Amendment, namely the state 10th Amendment sovereignty movement...

Read my posts here and those of other folks who are Constitutionally savvy... this thread, and this entire 9th & 10th Amendment Board holds the key!

JTCoyoté

"...the State of Colorado hereby claims sovereignty, under the 10th
Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, over all powers
not otherwise enumerated and granted to the federal government by
the United States Constitution." ~From HJR-94-1035, The First
10th Amendment State Sovereignty Resolution, 1994

Will do, and as soon as I know enough to be able to at least feign intelligence on the matter, I will be discussing it with a couple of my state legislators, one in particular who is a patriot and libertarian minded fellow, one of the few good one's left in my area, these guys are not only state reps, but are also my neighbors, people I have known for years (thank god for living in a rural state). Thanks for the info jt and thank you even more for the refreshing break from michale jackson threads.

[luckee1]

The thing is that they are all tied in with the original BAR which was started some 500 years ago in Britain. It is an accreditation system set up by the British Crown. The word BAR is not a word, but an acronym. As has been pointed out earlier by LoreOnTerror, it stands for "British Accredited Registry." When you pass the BAR and take the oath, the Constitution becomes subservient to your oath to uphold the British system of Law... you have become a servant of the Crown, and carry the title of Esquire... 90% of all positions of power in the federal government are held by BAR-ed attorney's.

JTCoyoté

"Between a balanced republic and a democracy,
the difference is like that between order and chaos."
~Chief Justice John Marshall 

f**kers!!!!  I never could figure it out back when I had property what BAR meant.  But I knew it was bad joo-joo when you had to use their forms exclusively for any real estate transactions in North Carolina.!!!!!

[donnay]

so what is the first step, is this something that should be brought up in court? Do states begin passing resolutions to have this reinstated officialy? Knowlege is one thing, but it must be backed by strong action, what specific action must now be taken to have this reinsated and enforced?

It needs to be publicly recognized in order for it to be enforced to protect the Sovereignty and Interests of WE THE PEOPLE!  Given the times we are living, what better time to begin reigning in the criminals.  Our founding fathers obviously knew how dangerous "titles of nobility" were to a sovereign country and people and felt the need to put it in writing, as an amendment.

All lawyers and judges who claim the title "esquire" or "esq.," a title used throughout the centuries of English nobility, under the TONA they are incapable of holding public office--not all lawyers are BAR members.

Henry Kissinger, Norman Schwarzkopf, Colin Powell, Casper Weinberger, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Sr., Rudy Giullani and Alan Greenspan is just a partial list of Americans who have been "honorarily" knighted by the Queen of England.  According to the TONA those men would be stripped of their citizenship and would be prohibited to hold any public positions--imagine how quick we can clean out the District of Criminals (D.C.)!

[Geolibertarian]

It needs to be publicly recognized in order for it to be enforced to protect the Sovereignty and Interests of WE THE PEOPLE!

Of course it does, but that won't happen until we the people take back control of our government from the criminal plutocrats who've hijacked it:

-------------------------------------







http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7926958774822130737 (Hacking Democracy)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5965670944815984616 (American Blackout)

[Above images clickable]

-------------------------------------

The only way for "we the people" to reassert our rightful control over government is to institute a fair and honest election system.

But that won't happen until and unless the American people (a) tell all of the partisan hacks and intellectual gatekeepers in the corporate whore "news" media to f**k off and die (instead of sheepishly letting these hacks and gatekeepers enslave their minds within the ridiculously narrow, self-defeating confines of the phony left-right paradigm), and (b) exert aggressive, non-stop, round-the-clock pressure on Congress to simultaneously:

       * Institute fair and equal ballot access criteria.

       * Enact both Congressman Ron Paul's Freedom Debate Act and Senator Herb Kohl's Weekend Voting Act.

       * Repeal both the Federal Election Campaign Act and Bipartisan Campaign "Reform" Act.

       * Institute instant runoff voting for Presidential elections.

       * Institute proportional representation for Congressional elections.

       * Mandate the use of hand-counted paper ballots for all elections.

       * Require all election ballots to include a binding NOTA option.

       * Abolish corporate personhood.


And if we're really smart, we'll insist that they implement monetary reform at the same time!

[TheCaliKid]

The thing is that they are all tied in with the original BAR which was started some 500 years ago in Britain. It is an accreditation system set up by the British Crown. The word BAR is not a word, but an acronym. As has been pointed out earlier by LoreOnTerror, it stands for "British Accredited Registry." When you pass the BAR and take the oath, the Constitution becomes subservient to your oath to uphold the British system of Law... you have become a servant of the Crown, and carry the title of Esquire... 90% of all positions of power in the federal government are held by BAR-ed attorney's.

JTCoyoté

This is so inflammatory!


These British bastards and their bloodline are at the epicenter of Satan's Empire IMHO.

[donnay]

Of course it does, but that won't happen until we the people take back control of our government from the criminal plutocrats who've hijacked it:

Yes and this is KEY:  

"The Failure of the American People

The American people are failing to educate themselves to be able to institute a true democracy [Republic] and take back their government from the plutocrats." [my emphasis]

This was all done by design so, it is going to be up to us to make lots of noise about these issues to make people take notice.  See, we have been so conditioned to think things are so complicated and you cannot fight city hall when, in reality, it is not complicated, just purposely hidden or ignored for so many years that people do not know the information exists or have been lied to for so long that they believe the lie--in many cases it is the latter.

[Ghost in the Machine]

I correct you donnay we are not a democracy we are supposed to me a republic...

[donnay]

I correct you donnay we are not a democracy we are supposed to me a republic...

Yes, I just corrected the quote myself.  That quote came directly from the information Geo posted. 

[Geolibertarian]

Yes, I just corrected the quote myself.  That quote came directly from the information Geo posted. 

In fairness to the author of the essay from which that quote was lifted, he starts out by saying that the U.S. Constitution establishes a "representative democracy" -- which, in my view, is just another way of saying "Democratic Constitutional Republic."

So I'm fairly convinced that when he uses "democracy" by itself in subsequent paragraphs, it is merely shorthand for a more long-winded term.

[donnay]

In fairness to the author of the essay from which that quote was lifted, he starts out by saying that the U.S. Constitution establishes a "representative democracy" -- which, in my view, is just another way of saying "Democratic Constitutional Republic."

So I'm fairly convinced that when he uses "democracy" by itself in subsequent paragraphs, it is merely shorthand for a more long-winded term.

Another Excerpt from Geo's article posted:

"The de facto government of the United States is a plutocracy, the rule by the wealthy. America has never been a complete or true democracy, though it has achieved a large number of democratic features. A small group of wealthy people in America has always ruled the nation for its own benefit, not for the welfare of the people. William Penn and other founders of our nation realized that the American people could be fooled into thinking that we govern if our nation is called a democracy, rule of the people."

A complete and true democracy is defined best by Benjamin Franklin:  
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"


An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic
__________________

This is what we need to halt by making people aware of the "missing" 13th amendment:

Rudy weighing N.Y. governor run

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090629/pl_politico/24325

Sir Rudolph would not be allowed to run for governor (or even mayor) because the minute he accepted the titles of nobility he would no longer be a citizen and should be in jail for being a traitor!

[centexan]

Great thread.  I knew about this controversy but never knew the Virginia info.  The thing PASSED and was printed in public documents.  Amazing that it could be withdrawn in plain view.

Yeah, this is the first thing that needs to be enforced in any governmental house cleaning.

I'm going to do a compilation of some of this stuff (cut and paste) and make a bunch of handouts.  Amazing stuff.

Also, do any of you have any old books that might have the original 13th amendment printed in them?  School books, military books and so on.  Looks like books from 1820 to 1860(?) might have the thing.  Be hard to argue with you if you were holding something like that in your hand.   

[JTCoyoté]

Great thread.  I knew about this controversy but never knew the Virginia info.  The thing PASSED and was printed in public documents.  Amazing that it could be withdrawn in plain view.

Yeah, this is the first thing that needs to be enforced in any governmental house cleaning.

I'm going to do a compilation of some of this stuff (cut and paste) and make a bunch of handouts.  Amazing stuff.

Also, do any of you have any old books that might have the original 13th amendment printed in them?  School books, military books and so on.  Looks like books from 1820 to 1860(?) might have the thing.  Be hard to argue with you if you were holding something like that in your hand.  

Several of the ratifying states, kept not only records of their ratification, but records of the other states as well... it is because of these records that we know that Virginia ratified in February, 1812... because the state house in Virginia, as well as the capital of Washington city were burned by the British in 1814, it wasn't until after the war was over that Virginia began putting things back together and reconstituted their laws, finally publishing the Virginia Revised Code dated March 12, 1819, where the TONA is prominently displayed.

There were many demons in the works during this period. This is the reason the amendment was created in the first place was because article 1 section 9 clause 7, the titles of nobility clause in the Constitution, spelled out what would be considered the acceptance of title, but it put forth no punishments. The Royals wanted to keep it that way and slowly take the country by subterfuge.

Thus, in late February 1810 the amendment was put forth with the jubilant support a President James Madison. It was ratified almost to the day two years later. Within months, the War of 1812 ensued... the sacking and burning began. Even at that, it was difficult for the Royals to get moles in every state House, so the titles of nobility 13th amendment was preserved as law from 1812 until 1865... 53 years, when a larger more destructive war created an amnesia around the entire Constitution... Lincoln's Murder created the climate of "we must have closure... we must bulldoze and remove the pain caused by the Building's rubble."  " we can obfuscate our dealings by trying a woman for capitol murder abetting an assassin..."That kind of thing... I hate these guys!!!

JTCoyoté

"My agency in promoting the passage of the National Banking Act
[of 1864] was the greatest financial mistake in my life. It has built
up a monopoly which affects every interest in the country."
~Solomon P. Chase
On his role in the creation of the usury banking system

[xfahctor]

 http://www.amendment-13.org/
damn, these guys need to fix their site, I went to the private publication section and a chunk of the photo's of their supporting publications documenting early common knowlege and teaching of this are missing, the ones still up are pretty compelling though. Definately going to be digging a lot deeper in to this one.

[xfahctor]

 
Usefull find:
An online version of the publication, "Echoes From The Cabinet" cleanly and neatly photgraphed from a clear and well preserved copy. This is important because it does several things. It confirms the legitimacy of the source as genuine and existing and gives a broader context to view the document in.
http://www.archive.org/stream/echoesfromcabine00unit#page/n0/mode/1up

[centexan]

I'm working up a pdf printout on this, and the www.amendment-13.org website isn't opening for me.  Maybe they've been overloaded by referrals from this thread.

The way I read things, Virginia ratified the amendment in Feb of 1812 (according to JT), and then the documents were lost in the War of 1812.  But then in 1819 the Virginia Code made mention of the ratification.  Right?  This is the last point I need clarified for my printout.

And it occurred to me, this thing could have been one of the causes for the war of 1812...to eradicate evidence of this amendment...to throw the thing into confusion, since the Brits had plans to grant lawyers titles later on.

[TheCaliKid]

The Founders were so brilliant. Never ceases to amaze. 

[chrsswtzr]

The Founders were so brilliant. Never ceases to amaze. 

I know. I've often thought to myself how I wished to have half the mind that these men had back then... today that is a rare commodity in human beings!

[centexan]

The internet's so cool.  I just found a couple of old history books on eBay.  One from 1855, one from 1845.  I sent both sellers an email:

Hi. Could you please tell me if the 13th Amendment to the Constitution printed in this book reads, "If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them." Thank you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320388823547&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350209529861&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

[trailhound]

Hi. Could you please tell me if the 13th Amendment to the Constitution printed in this book reads, "If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them." Thank you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320388823547&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350209529861&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

 Be sure and keep us abreast of that.

[Geolibertarian]

Be sure and keep us abreast of that.

Huh huh, you said "breast."

[centexan]

Two books, two breasts to be reported back on.  There's Abebooks, too.  I mean, if you can SHOW people that the amendment was there, and no mention of repeal is anywhere...what the hell?  This would be funny if it weren't so serious.

[centexan]

http://mail.moment.net/~michael/13thAmendment.pdf

Small pdf.  33kb

I'll make adjustments tomorrow.  Any suggestions are welcomed.

I make lots of printouts like these.  This should be a good one.  The computer is like the pamphleteering machinery of the Revolutionary War era. 

[trailhound]

Huh huh, you said "breast."

hehe yea they rock

[Geolibertarian]

Two books, two breasts to be reported back on.  There's Abebooks, too.  I mean, if you can SHOW people that the amendment was there, and no mention of repeal is anywhere...what the hell?  This would be funny if it weren't so serious.

But what about the ten key Amendments that no one disputes are "there," yet which Congress ignores anyway?

Now do you see why I so often stress the importance of election reform?

[donnay]

Here is are a couple of articles that lays it out nice and neat--they are long reads but well worth it!

The Missing Original 13th Amendment
http://oldsecretsandlies.blogspot.com/2008_01_27_archive.html

YOU ARE ALL SLAVES
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/12/21/17921671.php


"The great enemy of the Truth is very often not the lie - deliberate,
contrived, and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive and
realistic."  ~John F. Kennedy

[JTCoyoté]

But what about the ten key Amendments that no one disputes are "there," yet which Congress ignores anyway?

Now do you see why I so often stress the importance of election reform?

There were punctuation changes made to the original Constitution that were done in the last days of the Civil War and during the chaos after Lincoln's assassination. The first glaring example can be found at Article I Section 9 Clause 5: The Tax Clause.

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless
in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration hereinbefore
directed to be taken."

The comma after the word "direct" is so clumsy it is obvious, as is the removal of the comma after the word "herein."  This, comma was absorbed into an "uncharacteristic" line, curved horizontally attached to the curved leg of the "n" in the word "herein with a long curled half loop. It forms what appears as a strange run together word "hereinbefore" with a wider than usual gap between the "herein" and the "before" portions of the run on... The reason for these changes was to inject a bit of ambiguity into the clause, so it could later be interpreted to support a graduated income tax.

It successfully removes "No Capitation, or other direct..." as the modifiers for the word "Tax" and creates this four word phrase after the comma that gives power... "Tax shall be laid..."  The covering up, obscuring, of the comma behind the word "herein," creates another ambiguity giving this clause a wide latitude for interpretation... this appears to allow power in this case to lay tax, without the proportion to the census or enumeration, where no such power existed before the changes. all done with commas.

The clause as I see it, originally read,  "No Capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or the enumeration herein, before directed to be taken."  The new word "hereinbefore," refers back to the phrase, "Tax shall be laid." So, by the inclusion of one comma, and the obscuring of another comma by the creation of what appears to be a run-together word where a comma was obscured by the right leg of the letter "n" in the word "herein", it clearly changes the meaning of this clause. Let's read it again as it likely originally appeared, without the changes.

"No Capitation, or other direct Tax shall be laid, unless
 in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein,
before directed to be taken."

There is another punctuation change in the Constitution that interjects ambiguity in meaning by the addition of two commas... this is in the Second Amendment. Now if any group of people would have an understanding of the Second Amendment it would be the organized militia, in the decade or so following our second victory over the "Globalists" in the  'War of 1812.'  Here is a scan from the "Military Laws of the United States to which is prefixed the Constitution of the United States", published in 1825 under the authority of the War Department.

The 6 images below are from this publication. When clicked they show the title page, 2 letters exchanged by the Secretary of the Army, and the Secretary of War, page 14 with the properly punctuated 2nd Amendment also shown full size further below, and then, the rest of the Amendments, including the original 13th, the Titles of Nobility Amendment, which mysteriously disappeared after the Civil War.


(Special thanks to the folks at http://www.amendment-13.org for the use of these images.)

This scan shows "the 2nd Amendment [ Page 14, Article II ] properly presented as ratified and as shown in all presentations until after the time of the Civil War and Reconstruction, without the extra commas after the words "Militia" and "Arms". The only other source properly presented today is that for the United States Senate on the United States Government Printing Office site at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt2.html"

The Second Article of Amendment reads here as follows:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Oldyoti

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are
in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot
enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are
armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that
can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the
command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive
to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy
will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which
appears to them unjust and oppressive." ~Noah Webster, from 'An Examination
of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution' (Philadelphia 1787).

[centexan]

Thanks for the responses.  I'll look at those two articles, look for info on the Feb 7, 1812 ratification by Virginia.  That's the point I need to research.  Glanced at the Old Secrets and Lies article, and it says:

"There is some agreement. Both sides agree the Amendment was
proposed by Congress in 1810. Both sides also agree that the
proposed Amendment required the support of at least thirteen states
to be ratified. Both sides agree that between 1810 and 1812 twelve
states voted to support ratification.

The pivotal issue is whether Virginia ratified or rejected the
proposed Amendment. Dodge contends Virginia voted to support the
Amendment in 1819, and so the Amendment was truly ratified and
should still be a part of our Constitution. Senator Mitchell and
Mr. Hartgrove disagree, arguing that Virginia did not ratify...."

Don't know that there would be much there to support the Feb 1812 ratification., but I'll look more closely this evening.  Seems the point of contention on this would be the DATE of Virginia's ratification.  If it was 1812, then the 13 states needed to ratify did indeed ratify.  More states were added to the union between 1812-1819, so even if Virginia became the 13th state to ratify in 1819, the ratification would be meaningless (right?).  Or so I gather from what I've read.  So there MUST be proof on the internet that Virginia carried through with the 1812 ratification.

Got a response to one of my emails about the eBay book.  I think the guy looked at the Articles of the constitution, not the Amendments:

Good morning Sir--After reading your email this morning--I got the little book out and went thru it several times trying to answer the questions you asked. This book is completely here as it is numbered on the pages. The first 10 of 120 are loose, but still tied in by its string binding. The true dilema is--I couldnt find article 13--or in this book VIII. there is VII (12) and then amendments, but no 13 I can find---this book was written in 1855--maybe why. Good question!

I wrote back:

Thank you for your prompt reply.  I was asking about the thirteenth Amendment, not article 13.  The 13th amendment was ratified in 1812 and it may be in this book.  If you were looking at the Articles rather than the Amendments, could I trouble you to look again?  Also, does the amendment read...If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any title of nobility...and so on.  Some books word the amendment differently.  Sorry to be a bother, but this is of some importance to me.

[luckee1]

The true dilema is--I couldnt find article 13--or in this book VIII. there is VII (12) and then amendments, but no 13 I can find---this book was written in 1855--maybe why.

Maybe the dilemna is in the fact he cannot ascertain roman numerals..

V = 5
X = 10
I =  1

he was looking up 8 and 7
not  13 and 12

Have him try again.

[centexan]

Yeah.  I hated to insult him.  lol  Gave him a graceful way to deal with it.

But what about the ten key Amendments that no one disputes are "there," yet which Congress ignores anyway?

Now do you see why I so often stress the importance of election reform?

Oh yeah, I see your point.  But if it can be shown to people that a whole freakin AMENDMENT was just tossed out, that should raise some eyebrows.  We're used to the incrementalism, but this thing would be a bombshell.

I don't mean to hog this thread but this was an epiphany to me, last night.  And with the internet now, it's issues like this that can finally be addressed and resolved.

I'm going to look for an affordable copy of a period book with this amendment in it so I can go into my Rep's office with the book, a page of supporting documentation, and a demand.  This is a dynamite issue.

[xfahctor]

Thanks for the responses.  I'll look at those two articles, look for info on the Feb 7, 1812 ratification by Virginia.  That's the point I need to research.  Glanced at the Old Secrets and Lies article, and it says:

"There is some agreement. Both sides agree the Amendment was
proposed by Congress in 1810. Both sides also agree that the
proposed Amendment required the support of at least thirteen states
to be ratified. Both sides agree that between 1810 and 1812 twelve
states voted to support ratification.

The pivotal issue is whether Virginia ratified or rejected the
proposed Amendment. Dodge contends Virginia voted to support the
Amendment in 1819, and so the Amendment was truly ratified and
should still be a part of our Constitution. Senator Mitchell and
Mr. Hartgrove disagree, arguing that Virginia did not ratify...."

Don't know that there would be much there to support the Feb 1812 ratification., but I'll look more closely this evening.  Seems the point of contention on this would be the DATE of Virginia's ratification.  If it was 1812, then the 13 states needed to ratify did indeed ratify.  More states were added to the union between 1812-1819, so even if Virginia became the 13th state to ratify in 1819, the ratification would be meaningless (right?).  Or so I gather from what I've read.  So there MUST be proof on the internet that Virginia carried through with the 1812 ratification.

Got a response to one of my emails about the eBay book.  I think the guy looked at the Articles of the constitution, not the Amendments:

Good morning Sir--After reading your email this morning--I got the little book out and went thru it several times trying to answer the questions you asked. This book is completely here as it is numbered on the pages. The first 10 of 120 are loose, but still tied in by its string binding. The true dilema is--I couldnt find article 13--or in this book VIII. there is VII (12) and then amendments, but no 13 I can find---this book was written in 1855--maybe why. Good question!

I wrote back:

Thank you for your prompt reply.  I was asking about the thirteenth Amendment, not article 13.  The 13th amendment was ratified in 1812 and it may be in this book.  If you were looking at the Articles rather than the Amendments, could I trouble you to look again?  Also, does the amendment read...If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any title of nobility...and so on.  Some books word the amendment differently.  Sorry to be a bother, but this is of some importance to me.

one issue maybe the usage of the terms "article" and "amendment" . I notice in the book "Echoes From The Cabinet" is they use the term "article" even with the amendments. This may have been a more widely used term for the day.

[centexan]

Yeah.  JT's scan of the Amendments above shows they are called 'articles.'  I'm writing to some dealers on Abebooks right now and being as clear as I can on that...Amendment 13 (XIII) following the ten Amendments in the Bill of Rights.

[centexan]

Okay, I read the Old Secrets and Lies article.  Excellent piece.  Let's see...  After the War of 1812, it took a while for Virginia to reconstitute their legal system.  When they did, they assumed the Titles of Nobility Amendment was part of the U.S. Constitution (since their state was one of the 13 to ratify the thing).  But opponents say Virginia can't produce the original paperwork (conveniently burned by the British), so it's a no go.  I'm no lawyer, but if the state of Virginia is satisfied that they ratified (and their state's vote makes 13, the number needed to ratify), then that's it.  The thing passed.

I've updated my little pdf printout on this:

http://mail.moment.net/~michael/13thAmendment.pdf

I'll print out some copies and pass it around, see if it generates any interest locally.  It's hard to boil down something like this into 2 pages...have to leave out a lot...but I think I stated the gist of the matter.  Any of you who want to save/print/email the URL, feel free to do so. 

If I should ever come across a book with the amendment in it, I'm going to start hounding my state reps (got 2), and my state senator.  I expect I should look for civil codes from the time period on eBay, rather than history books and such.  I'll just email and ask them to look for the amendment.

An interesting discovery in the Old Secrets and Lies article was this:

"Later in 1861, another proposed amendment, also numbered thirteen, was signed byPresident Lincoln. This was the only proposed amendment that was
ever signed by a president. That resolve to amend read:

"ARTICLE THIRTEEN, No amendment shall be made
to the Constitution which will authorize or give to
Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within
any State, with the domestic institutions thereof,
including that of persons held to labor or service by the
laws of said State."

(In other words, President Lincoln had signed a resolve that would have permitted slavery, and upheld states' rights.) Only one State, Illinois, ratified this proposed amendment before the Civil War broke out in 1861...."

Never knew that.

[centexan]

Emailed a bookseller about a history book (1855 publication), and she wrote back:

Dear Sir--
I went back and again I couldnt find amendment 13--it only states up to 12--however, in article 1--section 4  #8 states the following;  "No title of nobility shall be granted by the united states: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall without the consent of Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office or tittle of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state".   In section 5 of article 1 it also refers to "No state shall enter into treaty alliance or confederation ; grant letters of marque reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold or silver coin tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attander, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts; or grant any title of nobility".
 
I'm sorry for not being anymore help than this....  C

I replied:

Thank you for your attn to this.  If you click on the link to the small pdf (33kb) below, you'll see why I'm seeking a book with the "original" 13th amendment in it.  I need to walk into my state Representative's office and ask him to look into the matter:
 
http://mail.moment.net/~michael/13thAmendment.pdf
 
Thanks again for your work.
 
Best wishes.
 
Mike
 
PS -- the pdf is a printout.  Please circulate the URL or printouts.
 

I'll leave this topic alone now unless something really interesting turns up.

[trailhound]

Emailed a bookseller about a history book (1855 publication), and she wrote back:

Dear Sir--
I went back and again I couldnt find amendment 13--it only states up to 12--however, in article 1--section 4  #8 states the following;  "No title of nobility shall be granted by the united states: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall without the consent of Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office or tittle of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state".   In section 5 of article 1 it also refers to "No state shall enter into treaty alliance or confederation ; grant letters of marque reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold or silver coin tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attander, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts; or grant any title of nobility".
 
I'm sorry for not being anymore help than this....  C

I replied:

Thank you for your attn to this.  If you click on the link to the small pdf (33kb) below, you'll see why I'm seeking a book with the "original" 13th amendment in it.  I need to walk into my state Representative's office and ask him to look into the matter:
 
http://mail.moment.net/~michael/13thAmendment.pdf
 
Thanks again for your work.
 
Best wishes.
 
Mike
 
PS -- the pdf is a printout.  Please circulate the URL or printouts.
 

I'll leave this topic alone now unless something really interesting turns up.

 I bought that book you listed and another one from early 1800's. The other is a harvard book of american historical docs, 400 some odd pages could be insightful.