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Author Topic: Christian comment on today's show  (Read 3219 times)
halfawake
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« on: May 18, 2009, 11:23:46 AM »

If I had never been exposed to the truth of the bible, i could never begin to understand or believe the things covered on this show. Only because i believe the bible do these things make any sense at all.
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rpyromaniac
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 11:32:30 AM »

Im heavily exposed to considerably more then the bible. Havent you even looked at maxwells work? what's there, 15-16, major religions with the same themes? the bible is as much of a carbon copy as everything else. everything is a copy of a copy of a copy. 90% of that is then crap. so dont follow anything. your connection with "the force man calls god" is for you to find yourself, not to read in a science fiction novel.
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lovealexjones
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 11:36:00 AM »

Maxwell's a fanny, Cooper called him out.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 11:36:05 AM »

Im heavily exposed to considerably more then the bible. Havent you even looked at maxwells work? what's there, 15-16, major religions with the same themes? the bible is as much of a carbon copy as everything else. everything is a copy of a copy of a copy. 90% of that is then crap. so dont follow anything. your connection with "the force man calls god" is for you to find yourself, not to read in a science fiction novel.

maxwell is a moron
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rpyromaniac
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 11:37:06 AM »

Maxwell's a fanny, Cooper called him out.

as per usual, provide more information for your argument please.
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lovealexjones
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 11:37:55 AM »

no, can't be bothered, listening to show.
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fools
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2009, 11:38:15 AM »

Actually, and please do not take this the wrong way, one does not need to either read or believe the Bible to understand what is happening. Also, one does not need to be a Christian to fight the NWO. Common sense will suffice to show that we are living in an exponentially increasing global government. The founding fathers of America were not big on Christianity and wanted to limit its influence on government because it limits freedom. When religion was used by those in power they persecuted "heretics," freethinkers, Jews etc... That is why Christians do not realize that they are simply calling for the emerging world order to be replaced with another new world order.
I respect the Christian faith but evil was being fought way before Christianity appeared on the world stage.
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rpyromaniac
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2009, 11:42:39 AM »

no, can't be bothered, listening to show.

if you cant be bothered to argue your point, take your argument and cram it kindly up your ass. you're talking shit as far as Im concerned. Any way you look at it, christianity is another carbon copy religion from a long line of the same shit. still sun worshiping blood lovers. just under a cute veil of "jesus" the carpenter. ironic that the US today generally has a jesus on their roof, eh?

f**king christfags and sheeple, DIAF. I hope a nuke blast lands on your home.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2009, 11:47:05 AM »

if you cant be bothered to argue your point, take your argument and cram it kindly up your ass. you're talking shit as far as Im concerned. Any way you look at it, christianity is another carbon copy religion from a long line of the same shit. still sun worshiping blood lovers. just under a cute veil of "jesus" the carpenter. ironic that the US today generally has a jesus on their roof, eh?

f**king christfags and sheeple, DIAF. I hope a nuke blast lands on your home.

troll
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Lilly Bighorn
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2009, 11:49:16 AM »

what was that alex said today about delusional people believing in the rapture?  Shocked that was hilarious!
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Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2009, 11:50:10 AM »

uh
he is the delusional one
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hyperqube
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2009, 11:51:24 AM »

who alex is delusional?
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2009, 11:51:54 AM »

who alex is delusional?

yeah he is
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DarkKnightNomeD
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2009, 11:52:05 AM »

Im heavily exposed to considerably more then the bible. Havent you even looked at maxwells work? what's there, 15-16, major religions with the same themes? the bible is as much of a carbon copy as everything else. everything is a copy of a copy of a copy. 90% of that is then crap. so dont follow anything. your connection with "the force man calls god" is for you to find yourself, not to read in a science fiction novel.

Yes you have 10 + Religions with the same themes

Born of a Virgin

Born on 25 of December

ECT ECT blah blah all the same stuff

wait, Doesnt all this Crap sound like some PAGAN Injection

Christ was never born on December 25

Show me the Date in the bible

He was NOT Born of a VIRGIN

She was Pregnant by a Man from the TRIBE of JUDAH

She was pretty much VERY CLOSE to being Stoned to Death on the Streets

Joseph Took her in So they would not kill her

"Jesus" or his Hebrew REAL NAME Yashayah

Show me where in the Bible, where it says i have to go to a Temple, and have a Preacher Teach me, sing to me, show me like 1 page of the bible and call it quits for the day

If Sunday is the Start of the Week, why do Christians WORSHIP on sunday

When it clearly says keep the LAST DAY HOLY or Rest or ect ect you know this

its Saturday your supposed to Rest or Worship or both

"Christ" came from the Streets sorry to say it, he did
he got a Box or some Stone or Brick, or something to stand on, and preach

he didn't have a College Education, he didnt take peoples money, maybe some food, and housing for the night, before moving on to the next town

He did not Preach in a church

why do we Worship this Easter day thats 2 days long, with a bunny that lays eggs

yeah most of this Pagan Sourced CRAP that was Injected into the Biblical Scriptures, and the Teachings of Men is wrong

also note, the Bible is sort of a History book too
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DarkKnightNomeD
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2009, 11:54:29 AM »

the RAPTURE Doctrine was Introduced in 1800's

so yes, this Rapture Doctrine is wrong

christ is not going to come to earth 3 times

only 2 times

note : Heaven above, HEAVEN ABOVE is not MADE FOR HUMANS , ect ect
only a place for ""GOD"" and his Angels
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 11:55:06 AM »

the RAPTURE Doctrine was Introduced in 1800's

so yes, this Rapture Doctrine is wrong

christ is not going to come to earth 3 times

only 2 times

note : Heaven above, HEAVEN ABOVE is not MADE FOR HUMANS , ect ect
only a place for ""GOD"" and his Angels

your wrong again
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rpyromaniac
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 11:56:05 AM »

your wrong again


Dude, dont make these pointless posts. you're just interjecting cause you dont know what you're talking about. make a point or cram it.
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fools
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 11:57:06 AM »

Listen folks, if we are going to unite we must put our religious views aside. We must realize that it is being used as a dividing factor. We need only appeal to common sense and, I think we all share this view, that the human being must be treated with dignity, not oppressive measures, whatever their form. We should concentrate on what unites us and keep our religion, or lack thereof, to ourselves.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 11:57:44 AM »

Dude, dont make these pointless posts. you're just interjecting cause you dont know what you're talking about. make a point or cram it.

kiss it troll
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DarkKnightNomeD
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 11:58:42 AM »

your wrong again


what church do you go to

what bible do you read from

what is gods name in your bible?
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fools
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2009, 11:59:24 AM »

Also, I think we are all old enough to write without calling eachother names. I am an adult and I am sure you all are as well. It is a prerequisite to joining the forum.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 11:59:40 AM »

 The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture occurs BEFORE the Tribulation, and the Tribulation occurs BEFORE the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem.

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words." —1st Thessalonians 4:13-18

INTRODUCTION

There is probably not a more controversial doctrine than the Rapture of the Saints in the Bible. First of all, the word "Rapture" is not found in the Bible. Many critics of the Rapture doctrine have stressed this fact over and over. However, the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible either. Nevertheless, the word "Godhead" most certainly is found in the Bible. I prefer the word "Godhead" for this simple reason.  Nevertheless, I confidently believe that the word "Trinity" does NO injustice to the plain teachings of the Word of God. The word accurately describes the divine nature of God. Howbeit, as I mentioned, I prefer to use the word GODHEAD. Tragically, modern versions of the Bible, such as the damnable New International Version [NIV] have removed this word completely. Interestingly, most of the people using the corrupt NIV adhere to a Postribulation position on the Rapture (i.e., that the Rapture occurs AFTER the Tribulation). Woe unto the Bible corrupters!

I also believe that the word "Rapture" does NO injustice to the Scriptures. The word "Rapture" means "to be caught away." In the following Scriptures, we read the term "a falling away."

    "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" —2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

The Greek meaning for this phrase is "a departure." I believe this that this term refers to the departure of the Saints. Some people believe that this term refers to a departure from law and order, i.e., anarchy!  These are the folks who believe in a Postribulation Rapture. Of course, this is not the PLAIN teaching of the Bible. Although the anarchy theory sounds very plausible, it is not very practical because history is filled with anarchy, rebellion and lawlessness. In addition, I will show you further Scriptures in a moment that overwhelmingly support the departure of the saints prior to the Tribulation Period (i.e., the 7-year time between the Rapture and the millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem). So, I could just as easily use the term "falling away" (or the departure), but the term "Rapture" DOES justice to the overwhelming amount of Biblical evidence in support of a Rapture of the saints (i.e., when all the saints shall all be caught up together in the clouds to be with Jesus).

One of the best statements I ever read was the following statement by Dr. John R. Rice, "The best way to interpret the Bible is not to interpret it at all." I like that. So often people make the MISTAKE of trying to find things in the Bible that God didn't put there. We are commanded to "search the Scriptures" (John 5:39); however, we must not search for what is not there. It is critically important that we apply wisdom when studying the Bible. How do we do this? By taking the Bible at face value unless it says otherwise. The Book of Revelation does entail much symbolism, but the Bible CLEARLY indicates the meaning. Many false doctrines have been constructed by ignorant and unlearned men who are unskilled at dividing the truth...

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." —2nd Timothy 2:15

How do you "rightly divide" the Word of God? By cross-referencing the Bible, i.e., comparing Scripture with Scripture. Correct Bible exegesis means to compare one Truth to another and never take any Scripture outside of the contextual agreement of all the other Scriptures in the Bible as a whole.

As an example: Mark 16:16 says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."  Many people (including some preachers) foolishly believe that a person MUST be water baptized to be saved.  A quick cross-reference over to 1st Corinthians 1:17 would reveal otherwise... Paul said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

John 4:2 says that Jesus didn't water baptize anyone; but His disciples did instead. If baptism were required by God for salvation, do you think Jesus and the Apostle Paul would have left it to someone else? There is no Biblical record of the woman at the well getting water baptized in John chapter 4, nor did Jesus ever tell her to go get water baptized.

The Apostle Paul clearly said that Jesus did NOT send him to baptize anyone. No one in the Old Testament was ever water baptized. The repentant thief on the cross wasn't water baptized. Clearly, water baptism is NOT essential to salvation as some false churches errantly require today. Do you now see the importance of cross-referencing the Bible? I could show you dozens and dozens of such examples of false doctrines which result from failure to compare Scripture with Scripture. So, never base a doctrine upon a a single Scripture passage without taking into consideration the entire scope of the Scriptures. Ask the Holy Spirit of God to guide you...

    "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." —John 16:13

Let the Holy Spirit be your guide, and He'll lead you around the minefields of heresy. Of course, you CANNOT have the Holy Spirit to guide you unless you are a born-again believer. If you have never accepted Christ as your personal Saviour, then please do so now. You need HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Having laid the groundwork, I would like to share with you some thoughts concerning the Rapture. There's so much garbage (i.e., doctrinal heresy) on the internet today. I am saddened that America's churches have been so lax in this needy area of preaching the truth in cyberspace. Far more people are surfing the internet than attending church these days, and you can't blame them in view of the apostate condition of Christianity today. Jesus said that the unsaved in His generation were wiser than the saved, "...for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light" (Luke 16:Cool. And so it is today. Let us be diligent as believers in these Last Days—to contend for the Biblical faith, to stand against the evils of our time, to walk with Jesus and to aggressively go soulwinning to get people saved.


Scriptures Teaching the Rapture

"Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:41).
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:36).

Matthew 24:41 and Luke 17:36, are sometimes thought to refer to the judgment of the nations at the end of the Tribulation Period, i.e., when the tares (unsaved) will be SEPARATED from the wheat (saved). This is quite different from the teaching of the Rapture, where it is the saved who are taken and not the unsaved. However, I personally believe that Matthew 24:41 and Luke 17:36 are speaking about the Pretribulation Rapture; and not the Judgment of the Nations at the end of the 7-year Tribulation Period.

At the Judgment of the Nations, the unsaved (the tares) will be caught up and cast into the Lake of Fire. Matthew 13:40 states, "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." This is true and will happen; but I don't believe that Matthew 24:41 nor Luke 17:36 are speaking of this particular judgment.

The argument is that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John didn't know about the Rapture, and that the Apostle Paul was the first to introduce the Rapture doctrine. However, we must remember that these words were spoken by Jesus Himself, and not the Apostles. Jesus prophesied of many future events which NONE of the Apostles knew anything about. The Biblical writers simply wrote down what they heard from our Lord.

I certainly would not be dogmatic on this issue, as BOTH events are going to happen; however, I believe that Matthew 24:41 and Luke 17:36 ARE referring to the Rapture. Matthew 24:36 clearly states that ONLY God knows when the Lord will return. If the Scriptures in question were referring to the judgment at the END of the Tribulation, then the time would be KNOWN, as the Word of God clearly states that the end of the Tribulation Period will be exactly 7 years AFTER the Rapture of the Church, and 3 1/2 years after the Abomination of Desolation (i.e., when the Antichrist stands in the temple of Jerusalem and declares to be God, and he will demand worship as such from his deceived followers).

The following Scriptures speaks of the Pretribulation Rapture...

    "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." —Matthew 24:41

This Scripture is very clear concerning the Rapture. Unfortunately, modern perversions of the Bible, such as the New International Version (NIV, or better yet... H.I.V.), have removed these Bible verses teaching the Rapture in their entirety. These Scriptures were removed by Westcott and Hort on the basis that more "reliable" Bible manuscripts had been discovered in Alexandria Egypt. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. The Jehovah's Witness' Bible (i.e., the New World Translation) comes from the EXACT same Greek text as does the NIV, NASV, NKJB, TNIV, ASV, and the Living Bible). All of the MODERN translations are CORRUPT!

The translators of the NIV's Greek text, Westcott and Hort, were corrupt themselves. These two phonies denied the Rapture, a literal Hell, the bodily resurrection of Christ, and many other fundamental Bible doctrines. If you read a Textus Receptus (the Hebrew and Greek text from which the King James Bible is translated), you will find all of the Scriptures I am quoting to you. By the way 1st John 5:17 is in the Textus Receptus as well. Sadly, 1st John 5:7 is missing from all modern Bibles (either in part or completely). The forty-eight men who translated the King James Bible rejected many of the manuscripts they were presented. They believed those documents to be corrupt, pieces of the puzzle that just didn't fit. The manuscripts which they did accept came to be known as the "received text" (or the Textus Receptus). I paid $80 for my Textus Receptus and cherish it. It is the manuscript from which the King James Bible was translated.

I am simply showing you this because most of Postribulation Rapture movement has been borne out of corrupt perversions of the Bible. It doesn't surprise me that someone would believe in a Postribulation Rapture if they're being poisoned by the NIV or some other modern perversion of God's Word. If you understand this FACT then you are well on your way to grasping the plain and powerful truths of the Word of God. A man once wrote to me, alleging that Jesus is not God because the NIV says so, and he's correct... that's what the damnable NIV teaches! (See Philippians 2:6). So if you don't have a King James Bible, you won't find all the Scriptures I am giving you. As a matter of fact, the NIV is missing over 65,000 words as compared to the King James. Woe unto Harper Collins and Zondervan publishers!

Here is another Scripture which plainly teaches the Rapture...

     Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." —Luke 17:36

All Christians will be changed at the Rapture (1st Corinthians 15:52). Our sinful earthly bodies will be changed into incorruptible, eternal bodies. What a day that will be! No more neck pain from my herniated disks! We will be changed in less than a second...

    "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." —1st Corinthians 15:51-53

The following Verse is one of my favorites in the whole Bible...

    "And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you." —John 16:22

No one will ever ruin our day again. No more insults, no more gossip, no more bullies, no more mean people, no more rude remarks, no more jealous coworkers. Amen! Let's face it, many people are cold-hearted and insensitive, especially towards tender-hearted people. Tender-hearted people don't mix well with Cold-hearted people. Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:12 of the days when many people would become cold-hearted because of iniquity (Greek, "injustice"). We see this much today. With all the blatant crimes being committed by the U.S. government—the illegal war in Iraq, the theft of trillions-of-dollars of taxpayer money, our nations borders deliberately being unguarded, a Communist president, et cetera—many Americans have become angry, tired and thin-skinned. It's a rat-race in America.

Here is an easy way to remember the rapture as taught by the faithful man of God, Dr. Jack Hyles:

    Jesus came to earth the first time "TO" His own approximately 2,000 years ago

    Jesus is coming at the rapture "FOR" His own

    Jesus is coming again at the second coming "WITH" His own

I've never heard it said any simpler than that. Jesus will come again at the Rapture FOR His own (i.e., for all the Saints throughout history). The dead in Christ shall be raised first and then Christians who are alive will be changed. Personally, I do not believe that the entire Rapture will occur in less than a second. I believe that the Bible is teaching that we as INDIVIDUALS will be changed in less than a second. The trumpet, voice of the archangel, raising of the dead first, and then the living, may be a significantly longer time. Howbeit, we know that we WILL BE CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye.

Jude 1:14 says, "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." The Lord will return with tens-of-thousands of His saints at the Second Coming. This event occurs 7-years AFTER the Rapture of the Saints. In order for us to return WITH the Lord, we have to first be WITH the Lord. This is further evidence of a Pretribulation Rapture.

Again, an easy way to remember this is:

    * Jesus came 2,000 years ago TO His own.
    * He is coming at the Rapture FOR His own.
    * Jesus will return at the Second Coming WITH His own.

Clearly, we will be with the Lord when he returns at the Second Coming.

It is clear from the following passage of Scripture that the Lord is returning FOR His saints at the Rapture...

    "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words." —1st Thessalonians 4:13-18

In contrast, the Lord will be returning WITH His own at the end of the Tribulation period, to reign from Jerusalem as King over the earth (Isaiah 24:23; Micah 4:7). 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 clearly states that there must first come... "a falling away" before the Antichrist will be revealed. I believe these words, "a falling away," refer to the Rapture when the Saints are "caught away" from the earth. If we accept the Word of God at face value, I cannot see how anyone can conclude anything but a Pretribulation Rapture.
 

THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

Read the Book of Revelation and all the horrible things which are going to happen during the 7-Year Tribulation (Revelation Chapters 6-13). One can only come to the logical conclusion that such events WOULD be a definite giveaway concerning the time when the Lord is going to return. Daniel prophesied concerned an event known as THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days" (Daniel 12:11; see also Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14). The Bible teaches that 3 1/2 years of time will follow this blasphemous act by the Antichrist, which means that everyone who understood the Bible would know EXACTLY when Jesus Christ would return. This goes 100% contrary to the plain statement of Jesus in Mark 13:33, "Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." This is strong evidence in support of a Pretribulation Rapture.

The events prophesied to occur in the 7-year Tribulation period are extremely SPECIFIC. Yet, the Bible plainly states repeatedly that the Lord will return as a “thief in the night” (1st Thessalonians 5:2).
 

The Postribulation Rapture and Modern Corrupt Bibles

Some of my beliefs concerning the Bible are speculation. The "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1,2 is such an issue. It is not an essential doctrine to one's Christian faith. Likewise, the Rapture issue is NOT a fundamental doctrine necessary to one's salvation. In other words, no one is going to burn in Hell because they believed in a Postribulation Rapture. However, I have noticed that those who adhere to such false doctrines as the Postribulation Rapture, are usually ensnared into the modern corrupt Bible versions. Many of these people are NOT saved; they are merely religious. The modern perversions of the Bible all diminish the deity of Jesus Christ (i.e., that Jesus is Almighty God). The doctrine of the blood of Jesus is also weakened in the modern versions. As a result, many people are buying into Satanic deceptions concerning Biblical doctrines. Some people (such as Dr. John MacArthur) focus on Christ's death; but reject the efficacy (power) of the literal blood sacrifice of Christ. Others are buying into the LIE of Lordship Salvation (i.e., that a person must forsake their actual sins to be saved). I think it's important to establish the connection between such heresies and the Postribulation Rapture crowd. The common denominator is modern corrupt Bibles.  Did you know that JESUS, the name which is above every other name, has been removed in 38 places in the New International Version (NIV). I only trust the good old trustworthy King James Bible.

Followers of the King James Bible have no problem believing in a Pretribulation rapture.  It's the people who are using the poisoned and watered down "versions" that can't seem to get their doctrines straight. If you have the wrong Bible, then you are never going to fully find your way to the Truth of God's Word. Jesus said in John 4:24 that God MUST be worshipped in spirit and truth. So if you don't have the truth you are doomed.

Followers of modern bibles are messed up doctrinally and lack the PASSION for the Bible that King James-loving Christians possess. I triple-dog dare you to find an NIV-toting Christian who can quote verse-after-verse from memory, word perfect.  I've only seen that with the King James crowd.
 

A Postribulation Rapture is Illogical

Reason with me here for a moment. The Bible clearly teaches that there will be a judgment for all believers at the Judgment Seat of Christ (2nd Corinthians 5:10). The Bible also teaches that there will be the Marriage Supper of the Lamb for all believers (Revelation 19:9). Ok, if the Rapture isn't going to happen until AFTER the Tribulation, then when do these events occur? It's common sense.

A Post-Tribulation Rapture theory creates a serious dilemma in that there will be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ nor the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Thus, the Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture must occur BEFORE the Tribulation; and the Tribulation must occur BEFORE the Millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem.
 

What about a “Split Rapture”?

Though I greatly admire him, pastor J. Vernon McGee believed in a "split rapture." Pastor McGee was a Presbyterian minister for many decades, faithfully serving the Lord. Nevertheless, there is no such teaching of a "split rapture" found in the Bible. Pastor McGee taught that ONLY the New Testament saints would be raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation, and then the Old Testament saints would be raptured after the Tribulation. Again, I find no such teaching in the Bible. We are taught in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the "dead in Christ" would be raised first. Well, the Old Testament saints are all dead (except Enoch and Elijah who apparently never died a physical death). They will more than likely be the two prophets slain in Revelation. Hebrews 9:27 declares that all men must die... "It is appointed unto men once to die."

Thus, Old Testament saints will be raised up at the Rapture when Jesus returns FOR His own before the Tribulation. There is no reason to believe that Old Testament saints will be raised up at a different resurrection than New Testament saints. Revelation 20:6 plainly states... "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." The FIRST resurrection is for all believers. The SECOND resurrection is only for the unsaved, the wicked (Revelation 20:11-15).

There is nothing Biblical about a split Rapture theory.


Rapture versus Second Coming

The following Scripture speaks of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ...

    "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." —2nd Thessalonians 1:7,8

This will be at the Second Coming when Jesus returns WITH His saints and angels to fight the Battle of Armageddon in the valley of Megiddo (in Palestine). This is in sharp contrast to all the other Scriptures about the trumpet, the voice of the archangel, being changed in the twinkling of an eye and meeting in the clouds. Clearly we are looking at two separate events here; namely, the Rapture versus the Second Coming. A Postribulation position places BOTH events as happening simultaneously. This is illogical.

    * When Jesus comes FOR us at the Rapture, we will be caught up into the clouds.
    * When Jesus returns WITH us at the Second Coming, we will return to the earth.

If the Postribulation theory holds true, then the Judgment Seat of Christ, Marriage Supper of the Lamb, Battle of Armageddon, Judgment of the Nations, and other prophecies would all have to occur simultaneously, which makes no sense at all. Why would believers be Raptured into the clouds to meet with the Lord just to turn around and come right back to the earth? It makes much more sense to accept the Bible as literal, and conclude that the Rapture of the Church will occur 7-years prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth.

At the Second Coming Jesus will return to put down the Antichrist, judge the nations, and then establish His Millennial Kingdom to reign upon the earth for 1,000 years. What a time that will be!!! It is clear to me, and I think to any honest Bible student, that the events surrounding the Rapture versus the Second Coming are so distinct and varied that it would be impossible to conclude anything other than a Pretribulation Rapture.
 

THE CHURCH MUST BE REMOVED FROM THE WORLD

According to 2nd Thessalonians 2:6-9, the Antichrist will not be revealed until the Church (i.e., the light of this world; Matthew 5:14, "Ye are the light of the world...") is removed...

    "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

Although there is controversy as to what the words "he who now letteth will let" means, I think the obvious interpretation is clear. In Matthew 5:14 Jesus plainly taught that believers are "the light of the world." Jesus is the Light (John 8:12) and it is Christ in our heart that shines in this dark and dreary world of sin and hate. Without Christians preaching the Word and fighting against sin, this world would quickly plunder into unimaginable wickedness. In order for the Antichrist to complete his New World Order, i.e., a Global Godless Totalitarian Communist Police State, led by Satan himself, the Church must be removed from the world.

At the Rapture, the Body of Christ (i.e., the Church) will be "caught away" from this world. At that time, the Antichrist will have NO OPPOSITION from people like me with websites exposing Satanism and every other form of debauchery. When the Church is gone, the Devil is going to have a heyday. Christians are a monkey-wrench for the New World Order. We really mess things up for them. We will never accept homosexuality, same-sex marriage, abortion, microchip implants, Communism, witchcraft, et cetera. We will not accept the Devil. The world follows Satan because they are his children. But we as Christians are a peculiar bunch, zealous about good works, and follow only the LORD JESUS CHRIST. We are a big obstacle for the New World Order. The true Church is like a fierce pitbull guarding watch against lies, evil and the Devil. God is going to remove us from the world as part of His divine sovereign plan, so the Tribulation can happen, when Israel will be purged in preparation to receive her King and the inhabitants of the earth will be judged for their wickedness.
 

Further Evidence of a Pretribulation Rapture

God will NOT allow the Church to go through the Tribulation Period. It will be a time of atrocities as the world has never known! God wouldn't destroy the wicked in Noah's day until Noah and his family were all safely aboard the ark. Not one drop of rain fell until Noah and his family were on the ark, and God had shut the door. Afterwards, the rains fell and the wicked were utterly destroyed. The same is true of Lot and his family. Although Lot was a backslidden believer, he was nevertheless a "just man," a righteous man (2nd Peter 2:7,8). We read in Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither." These words were spoken by the angel whom God had sent to reign down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah. No judgment could fall upon Sodom, until Lot and his family were removed.  Likewise, the Church will be Translated (Raptured) away from this sin-cursed world before the Tribulation.

    "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." —Revelation 3:10

The "word of my patience" in Revelation 3:10 is the Word of God. Here we have God's promise that because we have kept HIS WORD concerning salvation, i.e., because we have OBEYED the Gospel, He will keep us "from the hour of temptation" (i.e., the Tribulation Period). This seven-year period of tribulation is referred to in the Old Testament as The Time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7-11...

    "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him ... Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.  For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

It will be when the Church is removed from the earth (i.e., after the Rapture) that God will again recognize the nation Israel in a special covenant relationship with Himself. During the Great Tribulation, a remnant out of Israel will repent and turn to their Messiah. They will become His witnesses (Revelation 7:3-8). Thus, the time of Jacob's trouble will cause many Israelites to turn to the God of the Bible. We read in Matthew 24:14 concerning the Tribulation Period, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." We read in Revelation 7:4 who the 144,000 are going to be ... "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." The 144,000 will be Jewish soulwinners! These are the preachers spoken of in Matthew 24:14. They will win multitudes of lost sinners to the Lord (Revelation 7:9). As a result, many of them will be martyred (Revelation 6:9).
 

THE ENDS OF DAYS

The first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation are going to be a time of peace, when the False Prophet and the Antichrist will greatly influence the masses using signs and lying wonders (2nd Thessalonians 2:9). 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 tells us that the masses of the earth will eagerly follow the Antichrist because they loved not the truth that they might be saved... "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." The world will worship the Beast, the wicked Devil himself, just as they do innumerable Rock stars today. The Antichrist will very likely be a musical Rock star prior to his ascension to power.

As mentioned earlier, halfway through the Tribulation Period the Antichrist will commit what the Bible terms "The Abomination of Desolation" (Matthew 24:15). The Antichrist will claim to be god and require worship from his followers. At this point will begin what the Bible terms, GREAT TRIBULATION... "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21).

The last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation will be a time of woe that this world has never known... "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (Jeremiah 30:7). A meteorite will strike the earth... "And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter [poison]" (Revelation 8:11). One-third of all forests and crops will burn (Revelation 8:7). The oceans and rivers will be turned to blood (Revelation 8:8; 16:4). The waters will be poisoned, the forests will be burned, bloodthirsty creatures from Hell (perhaps genetic mutants; Revelation 9:1-11) will torment mankind... "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months" (Revelation 9:10). The blood from war will flow up to the horse's bridles (Revelation 14:20). Billions of people will be killed. This is what will happen in the Great Tribulation. Woe unto them!

I've shared a little prophecy with you here. If you really want to learn more about this subject, go online and buy the book "Bible Prophecy" by Oliver B. Greene. It is a masterpiece.

Don't ever let anyone shake your faith in the simple and plain teachings of the Bible. God said what He meant and meant what He said. The Bible teaches a Pretribulation Rapture.
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rpyromaniac
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 12:00:57 PM »

kiss it troll

once again a pointless post. cant you think for your damn self? say something. you're just sitting there going "nu uh!".

Edit: Cute strawman. big posts means you have a big dick.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 12:01:48 PM »



    "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." -Hebrews 11:5

    The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8).  There isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period.  In fact, if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible.  If we compare Scriptures having to do with the Translation of the Church (i.e., the Rapture), with those passages relating to the setting up of Christ's Kingdom, one can only reasonably conclude that it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for these two events to occur simultaneously.  Let's look at some of the comparisons:

       1.

          Matthew 25:31,32 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations"  Carefully notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns, and the nations of earth will be gathered before Him to be judged.  How can this fact be reconciled with 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which states that the saints will be caught up together to meet with the Lord in the air?
           
       2.

          Matthew 25:32 to 34 - "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."  Please notice that there is NO translation (i.e., Rapture) of the sheep mentioned here.  When the Lord returns to the earth at the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going to gather the nations of the earth together--separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32), i.e., the righteous from the unrighteous.  The sheep (saved) will simply enter the Kingdom, and the goats (unbelievers) be cast into everlasting fire.  The test in this judgment is the treatment accorded by the nations to those whom Christ here calls "my brethren."  These brethren are the Jewish remnant (i.e., the 144,000) who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the Tribulation.  Carefully notice, there is NO mention of a resurrection and the persons judged are the nations of the earth.  In sharp contrast, according to 1st Corinthians 15:52 there WILL BE a resurrection at the time of the Rapture.

          It is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, i.e., no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord.  People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium.  Proof of this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium.  Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom.  Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture?  Obviously this cannot be.  The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!
           
       3.

          Jude 1:14 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints."  Carefully notice that NO mention is made of a Rapture at this time.  Quite the contrary, here the Lord Jesus is returning with TEN THOUSANDS of His saints to the earth.  That is drastically different than having our bodies changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and being "caught up" into the clouds to meet with the Lord.  It would make no sense to say that Jesus is going to Rapture the saints, while coming to set up His Kingdom at the same time.  Proof that this is not the case is the fact that Jesus will gather the nations and separate the sheep from the goats, i.e., the saved from the unsaved, at His Second Coming.  Why would Jesus separate the saints TWICE?  That is, why would Jesus Rapture the saints into the air, and then regather the SAME people a short time later when He arrived on the earth?  Do you see the dilemma of the Postribulation heresy?
           
       4.

          Revelation 19:11 to 14 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."  Here we read about ARMIES from Heaven, riding upon white horses, following Christ into the Battle of Armageddon.  There is NO mention of a Rapture.  There is NOTHING in 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 or 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 about armies, or ten thousands of saints, coming to earth to war.  The exact opposite is stated... we will be LEAVING this sin-cursed earth!  Amen!

    These are but a few clear and irrefutable Scriptural evidences teaching a Pretribulation Rapture.
     

    Further Evidence of a Pretribulation Rapture

    God will NOT allow the Church to go through the Tribulation Period.  It will be a time of atrocities as the world has never known!  God wouldn't destroy the wicked in Noah's day until Noah and his family were all safely aboard the ark.  Not one drop of rain fell until Noah and his family were on the ark, and God had shut the door.  Afterwards, the rains fell and the wicked were utterly destroyed.  The same is true of Lot and his family.  Although Lot was a backslidden believer, he was nevertheless a "just man," a righteous man (2nd Peter 2:7,8).  We read in Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither."  These words were spoken by the angel whom God had sent to reign down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah.  No judgment could fall upon Sodom, until Lot and his family were removed.  Likewise, the Church will be Translated (Raptured) away from this sin-cursed world before the Tribulation.

        "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." -Revelation 3:10

    The "word of my patience" in Revelation 3:10 is the Word of God.  Here we have God's promise that because we have kept HIS WORD concerning salvation, i.e., because we have OBEYED the Gospel, He will keep us "from the hour of temptation" (i.e., the Tribulation Period).  This seven-year period of tribulation is referred to in the Old Testament as The Time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7-11...

        "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him ... Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.  For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished."

    It will be when the Church is removed from the earth (i.e., after the Rapture) that God will again recognize the nation Israel in a special covenant relationship with Himself.  During the Great Tribulation, a remnant out of Israel will repent and turn to their Messiah.  They will become His witnesses (Revelation 7:3-8).  Thus, the time of Jacob's trouble will cause many Israelites to turn to the God of the Bible.  We read in Matthew 24:14 concerning the Tribulation Period, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."  We read in Revelation 7:4 who the 144,000 are going to be ... "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."  The 144,000 will be Jewish soulwinners!  These are the preachers spoken of in Matthew 24:14.  They will win multitudes of lost sinners to the Lord (Revelation 7:9).  As a result, many of them will be martyred (Revelation 6:9).
     

    The Abomination of Desolation

    As I look at the events of the world today, and the stage being set for the coming Antichrist, I personally believe that the Pretribulation Rapture is near, i.e., the Rapture will precede the 7-year Tribulation Period. The Bible plainly states that no man knows WHEN the Lord will return (Mark 13:32), which means that the Rapture MUST come before the Tribulation Period. The reason is because the Bible plainly states that the Second Coming of Christ will happen 3 1/2 years AFTER The Abomination of Desolation, i.e., when the Antichrist declares himself to be god and demands worship from the masses of the world (Mark 13:14; Daniel 9:27). So it will be KNOWN exactly how much time remains before the Second Coming, once the Antichrist declares himself to be god from the temple in Jerusalem. If you study the King James Bible at face value, you can only conclude a Pretribulation Rapture.
     

    Why the Tribulation Period?

    Although the Tribulation will affect the entire earth, and everyone in the world--it will center primarily around the nation of Israel (Ezekiel 20:37; 22:18-22; Malachi 3:2,3).  We read in Ezekiel 20:37-38, "And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD."  This prophecy concerns Israel during the Tribulation Period.  Ezekiel tells us "why" God will allow this horrible time of unimaginable suffering and horror for the Jews.  It will be a time of judgment against the people who have rebelled against the Lord.  He will cause them "to pass under the rod," i.e., the Shepherd's rod.  God will SEPARATE the true remnant of Israel (i.e., saved Jews) from counterfeit Jews (i.e., unsaved Jews).  No unsaved Jew will ever enter the Promised Land, which God promised to Abraham and his seed in Genesis 17:8.  Consider yourself forewarned that this promise only applies to those who are BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIANS... "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29).  All Jews who follow the Christ-rejecting religion of JUDAISM will be cast in to Hellfire.

    To clarify, the Tribulation Period will be a time when God pours out His wrath upon mankind for his wickedness; but the PRIMARY purpose of the Tribulation Period is to prepare Israel to receive her King, Jesus Christ.  This is not Zionism, which is a false doctrine.  Zionism is the same sin that Abraham and Sara committed when they doubted God in their impatience and took matters into their own hands (i.e., concerning the promise of a son, Isaac).  Likewise, some elite Jews today (i.e., the synagogue of Satan - Revelation 2:9), occultists and Judaizers, have taken it upon themselves to FORCE the issue of restoring the Promised Land.  God is not part of this.  The Star of David is not found in the Bible and is an occult symbol.  Zionism glorifies the Jews, while demonizing the Arabs.  This is unbiblical, as God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34).  Keep in mind that the Arabs are ALSO descendants of Abraham.  We should not discriminate.  Jews are NO better than anyone else.  This is not being anti-Semitic; rather, it is being just.

    Daniel 12:1 states concerning the Great Tribulation...

        "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

    Only those Jews who are true believers in Christ, who have their name written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will be delivered from the horrors of God's wrath.  In order for The Time of Jacob's Trouble to occur, the Antichrist needs to be present, which means the Church must be gone from the world.  By the way, the only thing preventing America from total immediate destruction are it's Christian families, because we are fighting against the Devil's crowd.  The Antichrist's hands will be tied with millions of Christians still in the world.
     

    The Church Must be Removed from the World Before the Tribulation!

    Thus, having laid the foundation, let me say that the Church (i.e., all believers) MUST be removed from the world before any of this can happen.  2nd Thessalonians 2:3-10 clearly tells us that the Antichrist (man of sin) cannot be revealed on earth until the Church is removed from the world.  2nd Thessalonians 2:7-9 state... "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."  It's as obvious as can be to any genuine believer, who is familiar with the Word of God, who "He" in verse 7 is referring to... the Holy Spirit of God!  Jesus said in John 16:8 concerning the Holy Spirit... "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."  Where does the Word of God say that the Holy Spirit lives?  1st Corinthians 3:16 says... "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"  Are you starting to get the picture?  The Antichrist doesn't stand a chance with Christians in the world, because we will EXPOSE him, just as we do other servants of Satan (such as the Clinton and Bush Families).  Wake up oh Christian!  The Devil is at your front door!

    2nd Thessalonians 2:7 is incontrovertible PROOF that the Rapture must precede the Tribulation!  There can be NO other Person for "He" than the Holy Spirit.  Also, the events surrounding the Second Coming of Christ are irreconcilably different with the events concerning the Rapture--solid PROOF that the Bible teaches a Pretribulation Rapture!  Some ignorant people today are claiming that the Rapture doctrine didn't exist until recent centuries.  That is absurd!  We are reading the exact same Words of God today which the Apostle Paul penned nearly 2,000 years ago!  It's not a question of history, but of faith in the precious Words of God.

The Pretribulation Rapture Has Been Taught Throughout Christian History

The Pretribulation Rapture D
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DAVIDENGLAND
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 12:02:17 PM »

Oh Lord please save me from your followers.
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The question isn't whether we are right or wrong, the question is, are we even in the conversation??
hyperqube
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 12:02:22 PM »

of course that was copy n pasted from a rapture site.


now just because i can copy and paste from a 9/11 official story site doesn't make it true.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2009, 12:02:52 PM »

of course that was copy n pasted from a rapture site.


now just because i can copy and paste from a 9/11 official story site doesn't make it true.

uhm it explains it better than i can
i am sorry if you don't know your bible you should learn it
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DarkKnightNomeD
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2009, 12:03:17 PM »

Christ is not going to come from the breast of abraham

go to earth (Second time) pick up the People on earth, HEY GET ON THE BUS!

take them to heaven above

then come straight back, Third time christ coming?

Kill all theses evil people, and people or nations really who will not give up there power

then rule 1000 years, some say its 1000k reign

while people are still on earth, with him

and all the "people" who followed the scriptures are in Heaven above?

wtf
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rpyromaniac
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2009, 12:04:20 PM »

uhm it explains it better than i can
i am sorry if you don't know your bible you should learn it

its called a strawman argument sweety, you fail. try again.
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hyperqube
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2009, 12:05:03 PM »

sorry but to buy that interpretation of events would mean

i would have to suckle at the teat of the ultradispensationalist.
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fools
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2009, 12:06:43 PM »

Alex really needs to address this problem. Alex Jones should make it clear that his show welcomes people of all persuasions in the fight against this evil monolith of world government. He should appeal to all sides to cut out the noise. Personally, I come from a sufi Islamic background and we believe that you do not have to be from a certain religion to be "saved."
If you want to be a devout Christian good for you. If you want to be an atheist fair enough. If you want to be a gnostic etc.. good for you. Please do not let yourself get caught up in talking eachother down. We are all going to be cannon fodder the way things are going.
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xTruthSeekerx
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2009, 12:07:07 PM »

i never said THREE TIMES
your putting words in my mouth i DID NOT say
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TheHouseMan
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2009, 12:07:38 PM »

I don't think the Bible has anything to do with what's going on. They just use religion as a way of suppressing people.

All the NWO is, is a bunch of control freaks trying to control the entire planet. Whether that means population reduction, economic destruction -- whatever. They will do whatever it takes to control.. Vague quotes from the Bible do not add anything to my knowledge of the NWO.

Quote from: fools
Alex really needs to address this problem. Alex Jones should make it clear that his show welcomes people of all persuasions in the fight against this evil monolith of world government. He should appeal to all sides to cut out the noise. Personally, I come from a sufi Islamic background and we believe that you do not have to be from a certain religion to be "saved."
If you want to be a devout Christian good for you. If you want to be an atheist fair enough. If you want to be a gnostic etc.. good for you. Please do not let yourself get caught up in talking eachother down. We are all going to be cannon fodder the way things are going.

Thank you! By the way, Alex HAS made clear he welcomes all people (Christian, Muslim, Atheist etc)
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2009, 12:09:30 PM »

Our Blessed Hope
by Chuck Missler    
PURSUE THIS TOPIC:
RESOURCES
The Rapture
From Here to Eternity
ARTICLES
The Wedding Model
The Harpazo
The Great Snatch?
Ephraem The Syrian

We continue to receive many questions concerning the "Rapture" of the church and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. It reminds me of the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics... in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.

The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar.

The Harpázô

The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly presented in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he encourages the grieving Christians that, at the "great snatch," they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In verse 17, the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word harpázô, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up."

There are those who claim that the word "rapture" isn't in their Bible. That's because they aren't using the Latin translation:

...deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.. -1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin Vulgate) 1

The Latin equivalent of the Greek harpázô is the Latin verb rapio, "to take away by force." In the Latin Vulgate, one of the oldest Bibles in existence, the appropriate tense of rapio appears in verse 17. (Raptus is the past participle of rapio, and our English words "rapt" and "rapture" stem from this past participle.)

At the Rapture, living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time, to join the Lord in the air.

The Promise

This will be the fulfillment of the promise which our Lord confirmed at the Last Supper:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. -John 14:1-3

This thrilling promise wasn't given to everyone, only to His believers. (Judas had already left by then.)

This appears to parallel the promise of the bridegroom in the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding, where, after the ketubah, the engagement, but before the huppah, the formal ceremony, the groom departed to prepare a new home for his bride, usually an addition to his father's house. The bride was kept in a state of expectancy pending his return-often in the middle of the night, as a surprise.

(The huppah, the wedding ceremony, was followed with a seven-day celebration, etc.)

The Process

The anticipation of a bodily resurrection after life on this earth pervades the entire Bible. In the oldest book of the Bible, Job declares:

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. -Job 19:25-27

Yet, when our Lord comes to gather His church, there will be a generation alive at that time. In his discussion of the Resurrection in his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul again deals with this astonishing event:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -1 Corinthians 15:51-55

(From quantum physics considerations, I suspect that this transformation, "in the twinkling of an eye," will occur digitally in 10-43 of a second.) 2

The Imminent Gathering

Clearly, the Bible teaches us to expect Him at any moment. This is called the Doctrine of Imminency: it is next on the program and may take place very soon.

(The word "imminent" should not be confused with "immanent," which, in theological contexts, means that God is not only transcendent, or far above us, but that He is always with us and active on our behalf. Nor should it be confused with "eminent," which is a title of honor reserved for persons of outstanding distinction.)

Imminency expresses hope and a warm spirit of expectancy, 3 which should result in a victorious and purified life. 4 Believers are taught to expect the Savior from heaven at any moment. 5

Paul seemed to include himself among those who looked for Christ's return. 6 Timothy was admonished to "keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." 7 Jewish converts were reminded that "yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry." 8

Some have concluded that the expectation of some were so strong they had stopped work and had to be exhorted to return to their jobs, 9 and have patience. 10

Two Events?

There are many that hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the "Second Coming" of Christ and the "Rapture" are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

In contrast to the imminent gathering of His church, there are numerous passages that deal with precedent events which must transpire prior to the "Second Coming" to establish His kingdom on the earth. Some of the passages referring to the Rapture and the Second Coming are summarized at the the table below.

Rapture
   

Second Coming

John 14:1-3
   

Dan 2:44-45

Rom 8:19
   

Dan 7:9-14

1 Cor 1:7-8
   

Dan 12:1-3

1 Cor 15:1-53
   

Zech 14:1-15

1 Cor 16:22
   

Matt 13:41

Phil 3:20-21
   

Matt 24:15-31

Col 3:4
   

Matt 26:64

1 Thess 1:10
   

Mark 13:14-27

1 Thess 2:19
   

Mark 14:62

1 Thess 4:13-18             
   

Luke 21:25-28             

1 Thess 5:9
   

Acts 1:9-11

1 Thess 5:23
   

Acts 3:19-21

2 Thess 2:1 (3?)
   

1 Thess 3:13

1 Tim 6:14
   

2 Thess 1:6-10

2 Tim 4:1
   

2 Thess 2:8

Titus 2:13
   

2 Peter 3:1-14

Heb 9:28
   

Jude 14-15

James 5:7-9
   

Rev 1:7

1 Peter 1:7, 13
   

Rev 19:11-20:6

1 John 2:28-3:2
   

Rev 22:7, 12, 20

Jude 21
   

Rev 2:25
   

Rev 3:10
   


Why So Many Views?

There are, of course, many differing views, especially regarding matters of eschatology - the study of "last things." This diversity derives from several factors: the disciplines associated with hermeneutics - the theory of interpretation - as well as the need to integrate an understanding of the entirety of God's revealed plan of redemption: "the whole counsel of God."

The need to relate the various elements of end-time events, such as the Great Tribulation, the events surrounding the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Millennium, and other related issues, requires precise definitions and diligent study. We will address many of these in our subsequent articles in the hopes that they will prove helpful in understanding these issues and assisting you in formulating your own views regarding these challenges. (We will discover that some of the principal controversies are more an issue of ecclesiology than eschatology! But more of this next time.)

These are not "peripheral" issues (as they may have seemed in the past). We believe we are being plunged into a period of time about which the Bible says more than it does about any other period of human history-including the time that Jesus walked the shore of the Sea of Galilee and climbed the mountains of Judea! It is the most exciting time to be alive! But if we are to be diligent stewards, we need to carefully revise our priorities to match His!
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2009, 12:09:39 PM »

i never said THREE TIMES
your putting words in my mouth i DID NOT say

noo..

i said, hes not giong to come from the breast of abraham, go to earth 2nd time, pick up people, take them to heaven, then come back 3rd time

ahh screw it, i must typed the phrase or sentence wrong nevermind
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2009, 12:10:43 PM »

noo..

i said, hes not giong to come from the breast of abraham, go to earth 2nd time, pick up people, take them to heaven, then come back 3rd time

ahh screw it, i must typed the phrase or sentence wrong nevermind

your missing the entire point
seriously quit while your ahead
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2009, 12:11:08 PM »

The Wedding Model

In this second article in our series on the Rapture, we will explore another reason why we favor a "pre-tribulation" view of the Harpázô, the "snatching up" of the Church.

All through the Gospels, Jesus relied on the ancient Jewish wedding pattern for many of His parables,1 climaxing in His promise in the Upper Room in John 14 (as reviewed in our previous article). Many of us miss the full import of these allusions if we aren't familiar with the model of ancient Jewish wedding practices.

Jewish Wedding

The first step, the Ketubah, or Betrothal,2 was the establishment of the marriage covenant, usually when the prospective bridegroom took the initiative3 and negotiated the price (mohair) he must pay to purchase her.4

Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was established, and the young man and woman were regarded as husband and wife. 5 From that moment on, the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified - set apart - exclusively for her bridegroom.6 As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride drank from a cup of wine over which the betrothal had been pronounced.7

After the marriage covenant was established, the groom left his bride at her home and returned to his father's house, where he remained separated from his bride for approximately 12 months.8 This afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and prepare for married life. 9

During this period of separation, the groom prepared a dwelling place in his father's house to which he would later bring his bride. At the end of the period of separation, the bridegroom came - usually at night - to take his bride to live with him. The groom, the best man, and other male escorts left the father's house and conducted a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. 10 Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming.11 As a result, the groom's arrival was preceded by a shout,12 which announced her imminent departure to be gathered with him.

After the groom received his bride, together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party returned from the bride's home to the groom's father's house,13 where the wedding guests had assembled.

Shortly after their arrival, the bride and groom were escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber, the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face. 14 While the groomsmen and bridesmaids waited outside, the bride and groom entered the bridal chamber alone. There, in the privacy of that place, they entered into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted approximately one year earlier. 15

After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside.16 Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage. 17

Upon receiving the good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom's father's house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast.18

During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber19 (Cf. Genesis 29:21-23, 27-28) for the seven days of the huppah.20 Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see her.

The Ultimate Bride

The New Testament portrays the Church as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5:22-33 (Paul even quotes Genesis 2:24 as the union at the Parousia of the Bridegroom in v.31!); cf. Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2; James 4:4. In the opening verses of John 14, the marriage covenant is confirmed. 21 Paul continually reminds us of the purchase price 22 and the covenant23 by which we, the Bride, are set apart, or sanctified.24

Ecclesiology vs. Eschatology

It is this distinctive nature of the Church that is often overlooked by students of prophecy: it is more a matter of ecclesiology than eschatology.

One thing that seems to highlight this distinctiveness is the strange remark Jesus made regarding John the Baptist:

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. -Matthew 11:11

What does that mean? Jesus goes on to explain,

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. - Matthew 11:13

It is John the Baptist that closes the Old Testament, not Malachi. 25 A profound distinction appears to be drawn between the saints of the Old Testament and those of the New.

One of the challenges in fully appreciating Paul's epistles is the need to understand the staggering and distinctive advantages afforded the Church, in contrast to those of the Old Testament saints.26 And it is this role as the Bride of the Bridegroom that is emphasized in the parables and in the Book of Revelation.27

 The Departure of the Bridegroom

The Bridegroom has departed, and His return to gather His Bride is imminent.28 He has gone to prepare a place for you and me. (He has been at it for 2,000 years! It must be a spectacular abode!)

This very doctrine of "imminence" is taught throughout the New Testament and is a cornerstone of the "pre-tribulational" view: there is no event which is a prerequisite condition for His gathering of His Bride.

The Great Tribulation

There are those who believe the Church will go through the Great Tribulation. In exploring this issue, it is essential to distinguish between persecution, which clearly has been the lot of the Church for 19 centuries, and "the Great Tribulation" of eschatological significance. The persecution - and tribulation - of the Church was clearly promised to us:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

The source of this tribulation is the world and, of course, Satan. However, "the Great Tribulation" of eschatological significance is quite another matter.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. -Matthew 24:21

The context here is clearly Israel.29 Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book -Daniel 12:1

Note that "thy people will be delivered": the focus of the "Great Tribulation" is Israel. That is why it is called "the time of Jacob's Trouble":

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. -Jeremiah 30:7

Jesus (in the Old Testament) explains:

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly. 30 -Hosea 5:15

To "return," He must have left His place! The offence referred to is singular and specific: their rejection of Him. In "their affliction" they will ultimately repent and He will respond.31

The Great Tribulation also involves more than the wrath of the world or the wrath of Satan: it involves the indignation and wrath of God. 32 In contrast, the Church has been promised:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,-1 Thessalonians 5:9

And,

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. -Romans 5:9

And, specifically,

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour [time] of temptation [trial], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. -Revelation 3:10

Peter also emphasizes,

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: -2 Peter 2:9

Here, Peter is using the judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah "as an example,"33 as Jesus also did,34 in which the prior removal of Lot was a precondition before the angels could do their work.35

 A complete study of this issue involves careful and diligent study of both the Church (ecclesiology) as well as the eschatology (end time aspects) of the Great Tribulation, which, of course, far exceeds the focus of this brief review. It requires precise definitions of the terms used, and great care to understand how each of the elements of the revealed truth relate to each other.

But the fundamental doctrine of imminence has to be forfeited with any view that requires the Great Tribulation - or any other precedent event - to occur prior to the Rapture.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. -Luke 21:36

Are you going to escape these things that shall come to pass? If so, how? Or are you relying on the notion that the Lord is "delaying His coming?" 36 This could be a very dangerous presumption. Do your homework. It is important.

* * *
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2009, 12:12:11 PM »

Concluding our brief series of articles on our "Blessed Hope," 1 there would seem to be seven harpázôs ("raptures") in the Bible: Enoch,2 Elijah,3 Philip, 4 Paul,5 John6 and Jesus,7 and, of course, the Body of Christ, 8 the Church.  (In fact, the very Greek term, harpozô, is employed in four of these references.9)

Since Paul highlights that the mystery of the Church was his privilege to reveal in the New Testament,10 it is fashionable to assume that it would be futile to expect any references to the Rapture of the Church in the Old Testament.  However, here are some provocative passages for your personal consideration:
 
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.  -Isaiah 26:19-21

Who are to enter which chambers?  How long are they to be hidden?  (Compare this with John 14:1-3 and come to your own conclusions.)

And there are others:

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. - Zephaniah 2:3

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. -Psalm 27:5

But to me, the most provocative are the consistent patterns - or "types," metaphors, and similes - in the Old Testament:

Pattern is Prologue

It is interesting to notice the patterns that seem to be suggested in the Biblical text.  One of the greatest judgments on the Planet Earth was, of course, the flood during the days of Noah.  It is obvious that there were three groups of people facing that judgment:

1)  Those that perished in the Flood;
2)  Those who were preserved through the Flood, by means of the ark; and
3)  Those who were removed prior to the Flood, namely, Enoch.11  (It can be argued that he was only one person, but so is the Church!12 It was G. H. Pember who first suggested that Revelation 12:5 might be a reference to the Church.)

Enoch is, for many reasons, one of the most intriguing characters in the Old Testament.  There are also several provocative Jewish traditions regarding Enoch.  He is regarded as having been born on the day the Jews observe Hag Shavout, the Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost.  What is also interesting is that, by tradition, he is also believed to have been "translated" (or "raptured") on his birthday.   Since the Church was "born" on this day,13 one wonders if we, too, will be "raptured" on its birthday!14

(As some pre-tribbers love to point out, Enoch wasn't "mid-flood" or "post-flood," he was "pre-flood.")

We all have enjoyed the famous confrontation between Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3.  Many prophecy buffs view Nebuchadnezzar and the forced worship of his image as a "type" of the Antichrist, and the three Jewish young men as a foreshadowing of the 144,000 miraculously preserved through the "furnace" of the tribulation.  That leaves a provocative question: Where was Daniel himself?  Who might he represent as a type?

Some prophecy buffs see the use of a threshing floor as an idiom alluding to the tribulation.15  The marvelous romance of Ruth, who becomes the Gentile bride of Boaz, her Kinsman-Redeemer, is seen as an anticipatory type of the Church and her Redeemer.  In the critical threshing floor scene in chapter 3, where is Ruth?  At the feet of her Redeemer.16  Interesting.

In Genesis 22, Abraham left the donkey and the two young men at the foot of the hill as he and Isaac went up to the top of Moriah for the famous offering of his son.  After the episode concludes with the substitution of the ram, it lists those that then returned to Beersheba:

So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
Genesis 22:19

Where's Isaac?  Obviously, Isaac also returned with Abraham and the two young men.  But we are fascinated that the Holy Spirit appears to have edited the person of Isaac out of the record from the time he was offered until he is united with his bride two chapters later!17  We believe this was deliberate to have the narrative fully conform to the type.

One, of course, should not build doctrine from "types," metaphors, or similitudes.  But we feel they can be instructive and illuminating.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. -Romans 15:4

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. - Hosea 12:10

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2 Timothy 2:15

The legendary John Walvoord used to joke that when he got to heaven, one of the first things he planned to do was to conduct a course on "Remedial Eschatology."  But he admitted that he "wouldn't enjoy it as much because he would have lost his sin nature by then!"

He recently was called home to be with the Lord he served so faithfully for so many years.  I wonder how he and Walter Martin are getting along
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2009, 12:12:33 PM »

Quote
climaxing in His promise


wedding model, climaxing. ooooh
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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2009, 12:12:41 PM »

screw the jewish wedding

show me where it says you have to walk down an isle, and follow all this stuff we follow today, the TRADITIONS OF MEN so to speak
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