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Author Topic: The Austrian School Deception : Austerity , Economic Snake Oil and Genocide  (Read 60912 times)
Revolt426
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« Reply #400 on: June 25, 2009, 10:54:04 AM »

Of course, you are again trying to divert the argument to another subject, just as you did with my quote on monetizing gold coins, when i argued to monetize A GOLD COIN, the labor expended is only in forging that COIN, as opposed to labor expended in assisting economic growth (You changed the subject saying "Gold can be used for other things" which has NOTHING to do with it)....... You can attempt to divert the argument all you want, but you won't get anywhere now, becuase i've caught you flat out lying red handed as ANYONE can see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E0UPBtmTb0 (part 1 of 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9FWECWWN5o (part 2 of 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM7D3mnUSI0 (part 3 of 3)

Let us recap the relevant information posted throughout the thread you have relentlessly de-railed and put an end this utter bullshit you insist upon spewing once and for all. Of course this was your response to the factual evidence in the video’s I posted:


 The supply of gold increases every year. I didn't watch the videos since this is a strawman and not worth the time: Did they campare the growthrate of new gold extracted, and gold recycled, to population growth? I've also already refuted your claim that there's not enough, as well as your claim that money is something it's not.

To which I responded, logically:

By the way, your argument that "Look i have a chart that says the Gold production expands every year" , somehow eliminated the *FACT* That there is still not enough Gold to use as a currency is a typical remark from your type (The type that de-rail threads with substanceless remarks by accusing the opposing end of "Lying" instead of providing an "Argument").

You then assured us you would watch the video, to “Confirm” your views:

So I'm going to have to watch the video just so i can confirm my belief that it doesn't answer my questions on how much gold IS needed, how much gold we have, and what velocity would be required to have a "successful" economy. You still haven't defined what success is, just made fear mongering nonsense claims that austrians are genocide.

To which you never responded of course, so I decided to transcribe part of it here further proving you are outright lying:


Byron Dale quotes on GOLD SUPPLY [Data from WORLD GOLD COUNCIL]:

"50.8 Billion Ounces of Gold mined world wide" , "24.4 Trillion Grains of gold" DIVIDED BY WORLD POPULATION = 3591 "GRAINS [OF GOLD] PER PERSON" - "How many grains does it take to make a dollar...?" ............. "Some one has to set a standard,....  but they say the market could do that - but how would i know how to value the gold?"

"Exact same process divided by U.S. population... .. "80,207 Grains per person with all the gold in the United States"........ "5259.2 Dollars of Gold per person [If set at Roosevelt's fixed rate]... assuming the U.S. has 100% of Gold EVER MINED".......

1.6 Trillion dollar current monetary supply......... "Trade deficit of 40.4 Billion $ / Month...."...... "It would only take 3.29 years just to pay for the trade deficit in gold"....... "The total money supply of all gold leaves the country for the trade deficit"......."Bringing this stuff [Gold] over in big ships and coming back empty"

"If we are now going to quit using Federal Reserve notes (As opposed to reforming them into a soveriegn currency) , why would anyone want to accept them for GOLD?"....."You want people to just give you the Gold?"...... "The value of gold went up - according to what?".......(HOW DO YOU VALUE GOLD WITHOUT A RELATIVE CURRENCY)

"Today we have alot of debt that is court enforcable......" (Hence, the deflation from a Gold Standard would essentially foreclose on everyone in the country)
[CONTINUED]

You followed this argument up with this quote:

Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world. Who sets the standard for what dollars are worth as it is? Certainly not the government, they manipulate it by printing, but when you go to 7/11 to buy chocolate milk does someone "set a standard" on how many dollars it's worth? (7/11 does of course)

But you seem to have this hole in your copy paste here. 50.8Billion world wide.... is that 24.4 trillian grains of gold? devided by population that means a growth of 3591 gold per person anually. Is that the right amount or the wrong amount? We're back to relying on your wisdom and omniscience to know how much money has to expand each year....


Which anyone can see is yet another lie, because that is NOT an expansion rate , but the total amount of Gold ever mined in the World. Of course as anyone can see, you have just contradicted your mentor, Murray Rothbard, who also happened to advocate SETTING A FIXED STANDARD as I will show a few posts down (which you just rejected “In my imaginary world”) . Then you continue to make a mockery of yourself:

 seems the only one guilty of this mistake is you. Attacking austrians for wanting fractional reserve, rather then... oh i dunno looking into ron pauls free competition in currency and honest money bills where he, for DECADES has been attacking fractional reserve and wanting competition in currency. You've out right proven you have no clue what you're arguing against here.


Of course here, you are again putting words in my mouth because I never said “Austrian’s want fractional reserve”…… and furthermore are displaying a complete lack of knowledge in regards to Murray Rothbard, whom you have been touting as your mentor since you have now brought Ron Paul into the conversation in a desperate attempt to save face, who disagrees with Rothbard in regards to competing currency’s as the following post shows :


In addition, you obviously haven’t even read YOUR OWN source, Murray Rothbard argued against Von Hayek's "Competing Currency" theory and you are infact bouncing back and forth in between "We need Gold" and "We Need competing currency". Of course the reality is, neither will work if anyone reads what has been posted in this and other threads in the forum.
http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp
The Case for a Genuine Gold Dollar
by Murray N. Rothbard

Hayek's "Denationalization" of Money
........ People eagerly accept paper tickets marked "dollars" not for their aesthetic value, but because they are sure that they will be able to sell those tickets for the goods and services they desire. They can only be sure in that way when the particular name, "dollar," is already in use as money......
....Hayek and his followers have failed completely to absorb the lesson of Ludwig von Mises' "regression theorem," one of the most important theorems in monetary economics.[6]....


So here, I proved that you relentlessly tout Murray Rothbard as a god like economist, but you don’t even know what his proposals are. Of course all the while, you accuse ME of not reading Murray Rothbard’s writings:


ROFL. You obviously haven't read the essay yourself, as he was arguing about hayek's idea that any institution could print money from nothing and have it be worth something. Please read the whole thing not the first few lines and paste it. That article, which i've read many times, is about hard money, as is ron pauls free competition in currency and honest money act.
Nice hack job to completely change the meaning of an essay there. that was pathetic.

Of course, you again lied here (As anyone who actually clicks on the link can see):


what he says is clear as day:
Hayek's plan for the denationalization of money is Utopian in the worst sense: not because it is radical, but because it would not and could not work.

.....At any rate, whichever of the last two paths is chosen, money and banking would at last be separated from the state, and new currencies, whether "Hayeks" or "ducats," would be free to compete on the market with the gold dollar. I would not advise anyone, however, to bet their life savings on any of these proposed new currencies getting anywhere in this competitive race....... - Murray Rothbard

In addition, he appearently is pushing for the fixing of Gold to the dollar, which you reject and say the "Markets" will tell us:

Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.…..
To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market. – Murray Rothbard


So not only have you contradicted yourself in terms of competing currency, but now you have outright lied about your own mentor, Murray Rothbard who advocated FIXING Gold to the dollar , when you are telling us “Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world” in regards to what will tell us what X Grams of Gold is worth relative to dollars, of course without any dollars which is completely absurd. Further validating my analysis, your own mentor is calling you quote “Absurd”………..


Finally we come to the conclusion that :

A) You are lying through your teeth and saying there is a 3591 Gram / Gold expansion rate , When in REALITY, that is the entire world supply of gold divided by the population.

B) You are 100% Contradicting Murray Rothbard, your mentor, who is calling YOU absurd – who said QUOTE “To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market.” – Murray Rothbard

C) You are 100% Contradicting Murray Rothbard as he advocated a single Gold FIXED currency and argued AGAINST Von Hayek’s competing currency theory.

A Case In Point for anyone who had any doubts from the get go, you are as I’ve said before, flat out lying. And if anyone has any further doubts simply read the article written by none other than Murray Rothbard that refutes what aerborne has said here : http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp
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aerborne
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« Reply #401 on: June 25, 2009, 10:57:51 AM »

In addition, he appearently is pushing for the fixing of Gold to the dollar, which you reject and say the "Markets" will tell us:

Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.

To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market.
It just blows my mind how you can read those words and have them go right over your head. If the dollar is equal to a weight of gold then all goods (like a bottle of chocolate milk) are priced in weights of gold rather then the arbitrary value of fiat currency relative to other fiat currencies... IE, he's saying there'd be no foreign exchange because whether it's dollar, frank, ducats, farthings, or what have you they're all just notes for a respective weight of gold.
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Revolt426
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« Reply #402 on: June 25, 2009, 11:02:42 AM »

It just blows my mind how you can read those words and have them go right over your head. If the dollar is equal to a weight of gold then all goods (like a bottle of chocolate milk) are priced in weights of gold rather then the arbitrary value of fiat currency relative to other fiat currencies... IE, he's saying there'd be no foreign exchange because whether it's dollar, frank, ducats, farthings, or what have you they're all just notes for a respective weight of gold.

Again, you are trying to squirm your way out of saying THIS:


Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world. Who sets the standard for what dollars are worth as it is? Certainly not the government, they manipulate it by printing, but when you go to 7/11 to buy chocolate milk does someone "set a standard" on how many dollars it's worth? (7/11 does of course)

But you seem to have this hole in your copy paste here. 50.8Billion world wide.... is that 24.4 trillian grains of gold? devided by population that means a growth of 3591 gold per person anually. Is that the right amount or the wrong amount? We're back to relying on your wisdom and omniscience to know how much money has to expand each year....

But you CAN'T BECUASE YOU SAID IT and you are CONTRADICTING MURRAY ROTHBARD as ANYONE can see by the above post that proclaims he wants to FIX GOLD to the dollar and you argue :
Quote
Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world.

Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.…..

To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market.
– Murray Rothbard

BYE BYE TROLL
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aerborne
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« Reply #403 on: June 25, 2009, 11:45:46 AM »

Of course, you are again trying to divert the argument to another subject, just as you did with my quote on monetizing gold coins, when i argued to monetize A GOLD COIN, the labor expended is only in forging that COIN, as opposed to labor expended in assisting economic growth (You changed the subject saying "Gold can be used for other things" which has NOTHING to do with it)....... You can attempt to divert the argument all you want, but you won't get anywhere now, becuase i've caught you flat out lying red handed as ANYONE can see:
ROFL. What labor are you talking about? You're trying to say that the part of the factory that makes gold for ALL uses is "wasting labor" using gold to print coins? How much labor do you suppose they are wasting pressing coins? This is another one of those assumptions we're supposed to take for granted. It doesn't work. It's not wasted labor especially if it gives people jobs, and ESPECIALLY if it makes the company MORE MONEY. If they earn profit and hire people to do it, then it's a GOOD part of the economy. You've really got your head up your ass on this one.

Quote
Let us recap the relevant information posted throughout the thread you have relentlessly de-railed and put an end this utter bullshit you insist upon spewing once and for all. Of course this was your response to the factual evidence in the video’s I posted:


To which I responded, logically:

I like how you've perfectly showed your colors here. You're telling me i'm trying to derail your thread by addressing your accusation that there's not enough gold in the world.

[/quote]
You then assured us you would watch the video, to “Confirm” your views: [/quote] Yeah i'm sorry that was supposed to be a sarcastic question. If you can't put a 30 minute video into your own words to attack gold that's your failure not mine. You won't even highlight for me what points the video made... actually you eventually did, and i shot them down, to which you again accused me of "derailing" by addressing your accusations.

To which you never responded of course, so I decided to transcribe part of it here further proving you are outright lying:


You followed this argument up with this quote:


Which anyone can see is yet another lie, because that is NOT an expansion rate , but the total amount of Gold ever mined in the World. Of course as anyone can see, you have just contradicted your mentor, Murray Rothbard, who also happened to advocate SETTING A FIXED STANDARD as I will show a few posts down (which you just rejected “In my imaginary world”) . Then you continue to make a mockery of yourself:[/quote] HAHAHAH shows over folks. You just proved once again you don't know at all what you're talking about. It clearly states 50.8 billion is the amount mined every year. Converted into grains (yes i googled it, 1oz = 437.5 grains) is 22.225 TRillian grains. How we can we have 2.24 trillian grains TOTAL and mine 2.225 per year? Clearly you have no clue, what you're talking about here.

 
Quote
Of course here, you are again putting words in my mouth because I never said “Austrian’s want fractional reserve”…… and furthermore are displaying a complete lack of knowledge in regards to Murray Rothbard, whom you have been touting as your mentor since you have now brought Ron Paul into the conversation in a desperate attempt to save face, who disagrees with Rothbard in regards to competing currency’s as the following post shows :
I'm not putting words in your mouth, you've attacked austrians repeatedly by attacking fractional reserve backed by specie. Reread your own posts.

Ron paul's bills would allow the liberty reserve and others like it to compete with the USD in the marketplace as long as they are... honest money, IE gold or silver. This goes back to that debute among peers thing. Surely someone at the AMI proposes things differently from the others.... right?  But i've already debunked your outright lieing here. Read the whole thing rather then copy paste lines to argue that it said something it didn't.

Quote
So here, I proved that you relentlessly tout Murray Rothbard as a god like economist, but you don’t even know what his proposals are. Of course all the while, you accuse ME of not reading Murray Rothbard’s writings:
i've not touted him as a godlike economists. I read a book of his, and used it to cite examples of where your copy pasting is wrong, because his book actually has the factual evidence he used to make the conclusions he made.


Of course, you again lied here (As anyone who actually clicks on the link can see):[/quote] Anyone who clicks on that link will see that you took a few sentences from an entire section on hayek, and then a few sentences from 3 sections later on the case for a genuine gold dollar, and completely ignored what the essay said to grab sentences to try and spin them in an attack against me, and the intellectual debate among economists.


Quote
So not only have you contradicted yourself in terms of competing currency, but now you have outright lied about your own mentor, Murray Rothbard who advocated FIXING Gold to the dollar , when you are telling us “Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world” in regards to what will tell us what X Grams of Gold is worth relative to dollars, of course without any dollars which is completely absurd. Further validating my analysis, your own mentor is calling you quote “Absurd”………..
Completely untrue. You are taking your OWN old argument out of context, to attack me based on an out of context quotation of Rothbard. And don't think for one second their your attacks that he's my idol go unnoticed. That's a pretty pathetic tactic. Shall i call stephen zarlenga your idol? Do you pray to him every night and prostrate yourself at his altar?

Quote
Finally we come to the conclusion that :

A) You are lying through your teeth and saying there is a 3591 Gram / Gold expansion rate , When in REALITY, that is the entire world supply of gold divided by the population.
No we come to the conclusion that your retarded and can't convert grains to ounces. If your 50.8bn number were true, then we've already massively increased the total amount of gold by 50% since it's june.

Quote
B) You are 100% Contradicting Murray Rothbard, your mentor, who is calling YOU absurd – who said QUOTE “To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market.” – Murray Rothbard
again you don't understand at ALL what he's saying nor what I said. I've already addressed this conclusion, it's patently absurd, and a pathetic smear attempt.

Quote
C) You are 100% Contradicting Murray Rothbard as he advocated a single Gold FIXED currency and argued AGAINST Von Hayek’s competing currency theory.
No he's advocating a denationalization of currency by making the dollar equal to a weight of gold so that ANYONE can use any money that's a standard weight of gold, if the dollar is 2 gold grams and the franc is 3 gold grams they will always and forever be those weights. That's what he's advocating and you don't understand it just like you don't understand how many grains are in an ounce.

Quote
A Case In Point for anyone who had any doubts from the get go, you are as I’ve said before, flat out lying. And if anyone has any further doubts simply read the article written by none other than Murray Rothbard that refutes what aerborne has said here : http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp
You should try reading it yourself, 3 or 4 times if you don't understand it the forth time.

There's only one conclusion we can draw from this: How can we take economic advice from someone who doesn't understand HIS own evidence, much less the evidence he's presented with.
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Revolt426
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« Reply #404 on: June 25, 2009, 11:59:21 AM »

*YAWN* your credibilty is gone along with your bullshit. Take care now.

Byron Dale quote "We went online, and the total amount of gold ever mined...... divided by ounces, makes 50.8billion"

ANOTHER LIE
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aerborne
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« Reply #405 on: June 25, 2009, 12:09:45 PM »

Again, you are trying to squirm your way out of saying THIS:
But you CAN'T BECUASE YOU SAID IT and you are CONTRADICTING MURRAY ROTHBARD as ANYONE can see by the above post that proclaims he wants to FIX GOLD to the dollar and you argue :
Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.…..

To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market.
– Murray Rothbard

BYE BYE TROLL

Lets take a look at the WHOLE copy paste hack job you did.
Quote
"How many grains does it take to make a dollar...?" ............. "Some one has to set a standard,....  but they say the market could do that - but how would i know how to value the gold?"
so we can see the context of what you said, and the context of my response. You seem to be making the point that someone would set the price of gold, if you meant different (or, mean it differently NOW that i've addressed it) then oh well. The only reason to "set a standard" as you put it, is so that all bills denominated as weights of gold, would be interchangeable. Sorry if i misunderstood what you meant but let me be clear on what *I* meant. No one has to set the price of gold because the market sets the price, and any note, would be for a weight of gold, no fluctuation in the price of dollars euros francs because they're all their respected weight, and any goldbank could give notes for their gold deposits, much the same way Gold grams operate right now as a form of payment to places that accept gold grams.
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Revolt426
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« Reply #406 on: June 25, 2009, 12:36:18 PM »

You still insist upon attempting to pretend you didn't say this :


Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world. Who sets the standard for what dollars are worth as it is? Certainly not the government, they manipulate it by printing, but when you go to 7/11 to buy chocolate milk does someone "set a standard" on how many dollars it's worth? (7/11 does of course)

But you seem to have this hole in your copy paste here. 50.8Billion world wide.... is that 24.4 trillian grains of gold? devided by population that means a growth of 3591 gold per person anually. Is that the right amount or the wrong amount? We're back to relying on your wisdom and omniscience to know how much money has to expand each year....


And insist upon saying the gold mined was an anual expansion rate, and NOT the total gold mined, AND you obviously said no one has to set a standard, which Murray Rothbard, your mentor REFUTED.

I don't see how you are going to be able to get out of this ditch you've just driven yourself into. You can accuse me of taking things out of context, blah blah blah - it doesn't refute the fact that i PROVED you LIED
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aerborne
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« Reply #407 on: June 25, 2009, 01:17:46 PM »

You still insist upon attempting to pretend you didn't say this :
And insist upon saying the gold mined was an anual expansion rate, and NOT the total gold mined, AND you obviously said no one has to set a standard, which Murray Rothbard, your mentor REFUTED.

I don't see how you are going to be able to get out of this ditch you've just driven yourself into. You can accuse me of taking things out of context, blah blah blah - it doesn't refute the fact that i PROVED you LIED

How the hell is anyone supposed to know that you INFERRED

Byron Dale quote "We went online, and the total amount of gold ever mined...... divided by ounces, makes 50.8billion"

when you post

Quote
"50.8 Billion Ounces of Gold mined world wide"

in a conversation about

One of the most destructive periods of U.S. economic history took place during the currency contractions, monetary deflations, and financial ruination of farmers and workers during the late 1800s, when the bankers ruled through gold. It was what led to the founding of the Greenback and Progressive parties and to William Jennings Bryan’s famous speech at the 1900 Democratic national convention where he declared that we should not “crucify mankind on a cross of gold.”

You keep chopping up quotations, to use little sound bites and ellipses to veil the inferred meanings of your BS. How am I supposed to infer the meaning of a statement when get this... I haven't read where the quote came from because YOU DIDN'T post it.


Secondly: I already admitted that if you meant something different then i thought you meant that the conversation doesn't MATTER. You're going to harp on this point as if me being wrong about what you meant means i'm lieing, because you refuse to address and acknowledge your lies.

What happened in 1864 to put a limit on the greenback? Your lie about private industry not building infrastructure, etc. I've recounted your lies and you try to misdirect that point by accusing me of lying when i misunderstood the "inferred" argument of your ellipses ridden nonsense.

Here's a though, rather then relying on inferences derived from copy pasted hacked up sound bites (like the media) who not CLEARLY state your argument, the WHOLE quotation, and the source, and we can avoid these retarded semantic arguments on what you meant by your ellipses riddled sound bite.

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Revolt426
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« Reply #408 on: June 25, 2009, 01:26:40 PM »

My CLEARLY stated argument is, that you are flat out LYING:

WORLD GOLD COUNCIL WEBSITE

http://www.invest.gold.org/sites/en/faqs/#24

How much gold has been mined?
The best estimates available suggest that the total volume of gold ever mined up to the end of 2006 was approximately 158,000 tonnes, of which around 65% has been mined since 1950.
Back to the top


Now, it appears you are full of shit - and Byron Dale is correct doesn't it? - Yes, the data was from 2006. So you are going to jump the conclusion that, since there wasn't NEARLY enough Gold in 2006...... in less than 3 years, they have magically mined enough Gold to facilitate the debt levels (This is also considering the fact that the DEBT levels have drastically gone UP since 2006)

Of course, you argued AGAINST a Standard when i asked how you would value X Grams of Gold relative to dollars, and how the market would "Tell us" the value :

Someone has to set a standard? maybe in your imaginary world. Who sets the standard for what dollars are worth as it is? Certainly not the government, they manipulate it by printing, but when you go to 7/11 to buy chocolate milk does someone "set a standard" on how many dollars it's worth? (7/11 does of course)

But you seem to have this hole in your copy paste here. 50.8Billion world wide.... is that 24.4 trillian grains of gold? devided by population that means a growth of 3591 gold per person anually. Is that the right amount or the wrong amount? We're back to relying on your wisdom and omniscience to know how much money has to expand each year....
So Again, you said it was an annual expansion rate, and IT'S CLEARLY NOT.

And Murray Rothbard,  insists we NEED a standard to FIX Gold to the dollar (If Gold were used as a currency) , or else it would be "ABSURD" :

Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.…..

To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market. – Murray Rothbard


CONCLUSION AGAIN: You are flat out lying through your teeth on a multitude of issues, and i have just proved that - and i have just proved there is not enough Gold in the world to use as a currency, which would of course result in DEFLATION if we decided to use as a currency.

I am not going to let you worm your way out of this because i am well aware your sole intention here is to mislead people so you may as well just give it up and move on to the next forum.
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« Reply #409 on: June 25, 2009, 02:22:41 PM »

My CLEARLY stated argument is, that you are flat out LYING:

WORLD GOLD COUNCIL WEBSITE

http://www.invest.gold.org/sites/en/faqs/#24

How much gold has been mined?
The best estimates available suggest that the total volume of gold ever mined up to the end of 2006 was approximately 158,000 tonnes, of which around 65% has been mined since 1950.
Back to the top


Now, it appears you are full of shit - and Byron Dale is correct doesn't it? - Yes, the data was from 2006. So you are going to jump the conclusion that, since there wasn't NEARLY enough Gold in 2006...... in less than 3 years, they have magically mined enough Gold to facilitate the debt levels (This is also considering the fact that the DEBT levels have drastically gone UP since 2006)

Of course, you argued AGAINST a Standard when i asked how you would value X Grams of Gold relative to dollars, and how the market would "Tell us" the value :
So Again, you said it was an annual expansion rate, and IT'S CLEARLY NOT.

And Murray Rothbard,  insists we NEED a standard to FIX Gold to the dollar (If Gold were used as a currency) , or else it would be "ABSURD" :

Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.…..

To call for a free market in the price of gold would, in short, be as absurd as calling for a fluctuating market price for dollars in terms of cents. How many cents constitute a dollar is no more subject to daily fluctuation and uncertainty than inches in terms of yards. On the contrary, a truly free market in money will exist only when the dollar is once again strictly defined and therefore redeemable in terms of weights of gold. After that, gold will be exchangeable, at freely fluctuating prices, for the weights of all other goods and services on the market. – Murray Rothbard


CONCLUSION AGAIN: You are flat out lying through your teeth on a multitude of issues, and i have just proved that - and i have just proved there is not enough Gold in the world to use as a currency, which would of course result in DEFLATION if we decided to use as a currency.

I am not going to let you worm your way out of this because i am well aware your sole intention here is to mislead people so you may as well just give it up and move on to the next forum.
You post this now, after a tiny hack job. Your argument was NOT Clearly stated, as I obviously misundered stood what you were inferring when i clearly addressed that no one sets the price of gold, it's based on what 7/11 is asking for chocolate milk as an example.

Yes 50.8 is the total as quoted from byron,  I've already said, that i misunderstood your vague inferrences.

But again you've proven me right. You wish to harp on  my misunderstanding of your soundbites to avoid the ACTUAL lies you told. Murray rothbards whole paper was on how to DENATIONALIZE the dollar. You lie, and argue that it isn't saying
Quote
The paper by Rothbard is in support of a uniform currency....., the title being "The case for a genuine gold dollar" and citisizing Hayek for "De-Nationalizing the dollar".
His criticism, obviously, if you bothered to read the essay, was not that hayek was denationalizing the dollar, but with HOW he was attempting to.


So lets go back to rothbard on this:

You said:
Quote
you have just contradicted your mentor, Murray Rothbard, who also happened to advocate SETTING A FIXED STANDARD

ignore:
Quote
In short, the very description of a gold standard as "fixing the price of gold" is a grave misinterpretation. In a gold standard, the "price of gold" is not unaccountably fixed by government intervention. Rather, the "dollar," for the past half-century a mere paper ticket issued by the government, will become defined once again as a unit of weight of gold.

Clearly, you and rothbard aren't talking about the same thing when you construe my argument that 7/11 determines how much they want for a bottle of chocolate milk is the same as the market setting the "amount of grains in a dollar." You said:
Quote
In addition, he appearently is pushing for the fixing of Gold to the dollar, which you reject and say the "Markets" will tell us
I didn't in anyway say markets would adjust the amount of grains in a dollar. You're making a semantic argument and can't even keep your own semantics straight. First it's fixing the price then it's fixing the weight. I argued price fixing, rathbard is talking about weight fixing, and you're bouncing back and forth to sustain the argument because your whole proposale is based on a house of cards, and shooting down just one lie such as the July 1864 brings down the whole house of cards.

Of course you're just trolling this points to derail the discussion from another lie i've caught you in:
Quote
To Monetize Gold Coins, labor is expended merely forging the gold into a coin, this obviously is not very valuable to an economy, as it does not increase the net economic output at all other than people purchasing gold coins.

which as i've already said:
Quote
It's not wasted labor especially if it gives people jobs, and ESPECIALLY if it makes the company MORE MONEY. If they earn profit and hire people to do it, then it's a GOOD part of the economy. You've really got your head up your ass on this one.

Just like the other lie that gold has no "intrinsic" value. Your house of cards is thoroughly shattered on the lies it was built.
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« Reply #410 on: June 25, 2009, 02:36:13 PM »

Clearly, you have just confessed you lied :
HAHAHAH shows over folks. You just proved once again you don't know at all what you're talking about. It clearly states 50.8 billion is the amount mined every year. Converted into grains (yes i googled it, 1oz = 437.5 grains) is 22.225 TRillian grains. How we can we have 2.24 trillian grains TOTAL and mine 2.225 per year? Clearly you have no clue, what you're talking about here.

Because i highlighted you were WRONG, and you repeated your WRONG assertion numerous times

AND CLEARLY, the "Markets" are not telling us what a dollar relative to weights of gold is worth as Rothbard CLEARLY says:


"Furthermore, once selected, the definition, whatever it is, must be fixed permanently. Once chosen, there is no more excuse for changing definitions than there is for altering the length of a standard yard or the weight of a standard pound.." - Murray Rothbard

Now, if Murray Rothbard insists Gold "must be fixed permanently" to the dollar, and then says it is not "fixing the price of gold" , then that is CLEARLY a double speak! Either way, you said there would be no standard!

This of course, is disregarding the fact that there is STILL not enough Gold in the world.

Either way, you are wrong, and you have at the very least posted inaccurate information numerous times, and if my suspiscions are correct, you are flat out lying.
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« Reply #411 on: June 25, 2009, 02:53:35 PM »

And again you repeat that after i clearly admitted that i misunderstood your vague ellispes riddle hackjob of a quotation, and continue to ignore the following:

Quote
your whole proposale is based on a house of cards, and shooting down just one lie such as the July 1864 brings down the whole house of cards.

Of course you're just trolling this points to derail the discussion from another lie i've caught you in:
Quote
To Monetize Gold Coins, labor is expended merely forging the gold into a coin, this obviously is not very valuable to an economy, as it does not increase the net economic output at all other than people purchasing gold coins.

which as i've already said:
Quote
It's not wasted labor especially if it gives people jobs, and ESPECIALLY if it makes the company MORE MONEY. If they earn profit and hire people to do it, then it's a GOOD part of the economy. You've really got your head up your ass on this one.

Just like the other lie that gold has no "intrinsic" value. Your house of cards is thoroughly shattered on the lies it was built.

You're just proving me right by again attacking me on a point i already admitted i misunderstood you.
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« Reply #412 on: June 25, 2009, 11:01:35 PM »

Aerborne and Revolt426, have you guys ever pinned down your basic disagreement? I mean I think you both believe there's an evil cabal that wants to control us? I enjoy your "spirited debates" but they're WAY better (more educational) when you spar over philosophical shit, rather than personal stuff. Just sayin'. Smiley
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« Reply #413 on: June 26, 2009, 09:11:57 AM »

Aerborne and Revolt426, have you guys ever pinned down your basic disagreement? I mean I think you both believe there's an evil cabal that wants to control us? I enjoy your "spirited debates" but they're WAY better (more educational) when you spar over philosophical shit, rather than personal stuff. Just sayin'. Smiley

yea, maybe we should come at it the other way, and see what we can agree on or have in common.
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« Reply #414 on: June 26, 2009, 09:38:25 AM »

yea, maybe we should come at it the other way, and see what we can agree on or have in common.
I have nothing in common with someone who outright slanders what other people say , and continous to do so while the data is posted a multitude of times without watching the video that highlights the data because it's a quote "Strawman".....then when i am forced to go to the World Gold Council website and post the data because the troll repeatedely said the World Gold Supply was an "Annual Expansion Rate" when it was ALL THE GOLD IN THE WORLD / POPULATION , he was forced to admit he "Misunderstood me" when there was nothing to misunderstand in the first place! i posted the exact quote word for word.

Furthermore, i quoted "How are we going to value the dollar?, "How much is 10 grams of gold worth in dollars?" "someone has to set a standard"........... and i was rebutted with "HAHAHAHA only in your imaginary world". Finally, his own mentor said a "Free Market" for Gold would be quote "Absurd" and it would have to be "Fixed", 100% contadicting him in the first place, which he again attempted to worm his way out of by saying he "Misunderstood me".

If he were actually debating, as opossed to completely changing the subject on every topic, and then outright slandering what I said - then i would be able to reconsile my differences, however, this is clearly not the case as anyone can see. So i call BULLSHIT.
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« Reply #415 on: June 26, 2009, 05:47:18 PM »

I have nothing in common with someone who outright slanders what other people say , and continous to do so while the data is posted a multitude of times without watching the video that highlights the data because it's a quote "Strawman".....then when i am forced to go to the World Gold Council website and post the data because the troll repeatedely said the World Gold Supply was an "Annual Expansion Rate" when it was ALL THE GOLD IN THE WORLD / POPULATION , he was forced to admit he "Misunderstood me" when there was nothing to misunderstand in the first place! i posted the exact quote word for word.

Furthermore, i quoted "How are we going to value the dollar?, "How much is 10 grams of gold worth in dollars?" "someone has to set a standard"........... and i was rebutted with "HAHAHAHA only in your imaginary world". Finally, his own mentor said a "Free Market" for Gold would be quote "Absurd" and it would have to be "Fixed", 100% contadicting him in the first place, which he again attempted to worm his way out of by saying he "Misunderstood me".

If he were actually debating, as opossed to completely changing the subject on every topic, and then outright slandering what I said - then i would be able to reconsile my differences, however, this is clearly not the case as anyone can see. So i call BULLSHIT.

fair enough, all im saying is whatever worthwhile information is contained in this thread of late, is being buried beneath a cocophony of "liar, liar"...

i do not believe in eye for an eye, and would suggest, for the sake of this thread, that you consider that too...
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« Reply #416 on: June 26, 2009, 06:32:59 PM »

Yeah, I refuse to call myself an Austrian School dude because I don't like labels. Labels catalogue and define you, (pidgeon hole), but we have to be more open to the idea that even what we "think" we know is truth, may actually still be bullshit. We know way less than what we think is the least we can know. The disinfo, rabbit hole, and all that crap is fully-understood by no one.
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« Reply #417 on: June 26, 2009, 06:51:37 PM »

Trust me peeps, the only reason why i created this thread in the first place was to point out that there is an expanding movement of mis-informed people demanding we return to a system that would do absolutely nothing but accellerate the economic collapse. Of course , the vast majority of them are doing it 100% Unwittingly and have not seen a rational alternative..... However, there are quite a large group of self declared "Austrian Economists" pushing a theoretical monetary policy that would devestate the world population.

It's called Monetarism, one way or another , and it is ludicrous argument that "Currency has intrinsic value" and if you "Dig Gold up from the Earth, it will expand the economy". Additionally, the school in question demands we privatize ALL industry (Including the issuance of currency, and even the POST OFFICE) and the Government remain 100% uninvolved in all markets (This means all regulations are off the table). Speaking in "Absolutes" like this , is asking for serious trouble and i am merely attempting to highlight that.
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« Reply #418 on: June 26, 2009, 06:58:02 PM »

Trust me peeps, the only reason why i created this thread in the first place was to point out that there is an expanding movement of mis-informed people demanding we return to a system that would no absolutely nothing but accellerate the economic collapse. Of course , the vast majority of them are doing it 100% Unwittingly and have not seen a rational alternative..... However, there are quite a large group of self declared "Austrian Economists" pushing a theoretical monetary policy that would devestate the world population.

It's called Monetarism, one way or another , and it is ludicrous argument that "Currency has intrinsic value" and if you "Dig Gold up from the Earth, it will expand the economy". Additionally, the school in question demands we privatize ALL industry (Including the issuance of currency, and even the POST OFFICE) and the Government remain 100% uninvolved in all markets (This means all regulations are off the table). Speaking in "Absolute's" like this , is asking for serious trouble and i am merely attempting to highlight that.


Revolt, I love reading yours and Geo's stuff because I'm on a lifelong journey of learning, but I think you guys confuse the "dream" with the "means". The "Austrians" (or libertarians/anarchists) argue from a "we are there" point of view, whereas it seems you think our first order of business would be to nuke all social services.

Surely we all agree that whatever the endgame, you need a logical strategy to get there.
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« Reply #419 on: June 26, 2009, 07:03:47 PM »

Revolt, I love reading yours and Geo's stuff because I'm on a lifelong journey of learning, but I think you guys confuse the "dream" with the "means". The "Austrians" (or libertarians/anarchists) argue from a "we are there" point of view, whereas it seems you think our first order of business would be to nuke all social services.

Surely we all agree that whatever the endgame, you need a logical strategy to get there.
Freeski , the major issue here is allowing an economic collapse inevitably leads to this: How the 14th-Century Lombard Banks Created the Dark Age , And it just so happens, that is precisely what the Austrian school proposes we do (Do not fight the Depression, do not intervene, do not freeze all derivatives, and allow the system to collapse).

An economic collapse in Weimar Germany, 1923 - is exactly what allowed Hitler to seize power a decade later. Of course, the collapse in Germany (And the Lombard Collapse) were both caused by privatized currency.

The idea that the "Austrian School" is equivalent to "Libertarian's" is insulting to any real Libertarian that understands how a monetary system works, because  it would not lead to "Free Market's" but it would lead to Tyrannical Dictatorship and unthinkable genocide if we do allow the system to collapse.

This is precisely why we need to reform the system before a total disintigration, which unfortunately is against Austrian policy.
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« Reply #420 on: June 26, 2009, 07:06:46 PM »

Freeski , the major issue here is allowing an economic collapse inevitably leads to this: How the 14th-Century Lombard Banks Created the Dark Age , And it just so happens, that is precisely what the Austrian school proposes we do (Do not fight the Depression, do not intervene, do not freeze all derivatives, and allow the system to collapse).

An economic collapse in Weimar Germany, 1923 - is exactly what allowed Hitler to seize power a decade later. Of course, the collapse in Germany (And the Lombard Collapse) were both caused by privatized currency.

The idea that the "Austrian School" is equivalent to "Libertarian's" is insulting to any real Libertarian that understands how a monetary system works, because  it would not lead to "Free Market's" but it would lead to Tyrannical Dictatorship and unthinkable genocide if we do allow the system to collapse.

This is precisely why we need to reform the system before a total disintigration, which unfortunately is against Austrian policy.

That's going to take some time to absorb. Grin
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« Reply #421 on: June 26, 2009, 07:17:41 PM »

That's going to take some time to absorb. Grin
hehe, you are a good guy Freeski. Of all the people in the forum, i have yet to see you even make a single nasty comment even when you are perceivably attacked. I commend you for having alot more patience than I... but i do hope you realize i am doing this to prevent disaster via education as opposed to attacking Austrian school followers for fun , as i know the vast majority of them are good people, and i really do not like "fighting" with people. Unfortunately, when you critique a school of economics in which people worship the use of Gold as a currency as if it were a religion, you end up in fights..  Wink
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« Reply #422 on: June 26, 2009, 07:24:32 PM »

I hear you Revolt!
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« Reply #423 on: June 26, 2009, 09:06:43 PM »

Revolt, I love reading yours and Geo's stuff because I'm on a lifelong journey of learning, but I think you guys confuse the "dream" with the "means". The "Austrians" (or libertarians/anarchists) argue from a "we are there" point of view, whereas it seems you think our first order of business would be to nuke all social services.

Surely we all agree that whatever the endgame, you need a logical strategy to get there.

I joined the Libertarian Party in 1995, and am probably one of very few people to have done so purely on the basis of having read the national platform.

And this is the 1994 platform we're talking about, not the watered down one they have now. Back then the LP platform read like an Austrian School manifesto (in large part because Murray Rothbard himself helped shape the original platform in the early 1970s).

But it wasn't nearly so much the platform's economic proposals that won me over as it was its uncompromising positions on civil liberties. I'll admit there were certain economic views that struck me as unnecessarily "extreme." However, since I didn't know much about economics at the time, and since they were so refreshingly right on such issues as victimless crimes, government censorship, and the right to keep and bear arms, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt on economics.

Then, a little over two years later (in September 1997), I discovered Dan Sullivan's geolibertarian web site.

Now, up till that point, I had always gotten along fairly well with Austrian School types, since, like them, I was all about reducing government spending across the board and using the resultant savings to reduce taxes across the board. Unlike them, however, there was always something that bothered me about Harry Browne's proposal to sell off (among other things) all national parks to the highest bidder to finance the liquidation of Social Security. I even expressed this concern to Jacob Hornberger -- whom I met in person just before discovering Dan's site -- and posited a scenario of someone who found himself standing on a quarter-acre plot of land and being utterly surrounded by land "owned" by those who, for whatever reason, did not recognize his right to walk to the store or to work (and hence over "their" land) without paying them a monopoly toll first, and asked him how "libertarianism," as defined by the Austrian School-dominated Libertarian Party, would reconcile this obvious conflict between one person's right of self-ownership and another's right to "justly acquired property."  I never got a satisfactory answer, but since I was a fan of his at the time, I didn't press the issue.

When I read the essay on Royal Libertarianism, however, the proverbial light bulb came on, and I immediately understood in very clear terms what had always bothered me at an intuitive level about the Rothbardian version of libertarianism (as opposed to what I now understood to be the original Thomas Paine version).

Then, to make matters worse, I discovered Byron Dale's web site later that same year, and found myself agreeing with Byron's argument as to the inherent superiority of "monetizing" public infrastructure over "monetizing" precious metals.

Ever since then I've found myself at odds with Austrian Schoolers (despite my agreement with them on numerous other issues), and consequently have over a decades' worth of experience arguing with them online.

And from that experience I've learned that Austrian Schoolers tend to fall into one of two general categories: (a) pro-limited government types who've merely fallen (however unwittingly) under the influence of the Austrian School, and (b) Austrian School cultists -- those who mindlessly hurl red-baiting labels at anyone who so much as questions Austrian School dogma on any issue.

It's the latter type I have a fundamental dislike of, not the former, because the latter are always the ones who compulsively derail threads and obsessively engage in childish, troll-like behavior.
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« Reply #424 on: June 26, 2009, 09:26:10 PM »

Quote
Freeski , the major issue here is allowing an economic collapse inevitably leads to this: How the 14th-Century Lombard Banks Created the Dark Age , And it just so happens, that is precisely what the Austrian school proposes we do (Do not fight the Depression, do not intervene, do not freeze all derivatives, and allow the system to collapse).

An economic collapse in Weimar Germany, 1923 - is exactly what allowed Hitler to seize power a decade later. Of course, the collapse in Germany (And the Lombard Collapse) were both caused by privatized currency.

 The Austrian system does not support a privatized currency. It supports a standard like 12 inches in a foot, a measure of gold=1 dollar. That is not a private currency that is a natural currency. 

 If you want to get off narcotics you have to face the crash. Printing more dope for whatever creative reason you want to come up with is not going to make the inevitable correction (crash) any easier, it will only prolong the agony.

 
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« Reply #425 on: June 26, 2009, 09:56:54 PM »

The Austrian system does not support a privatized currency. It supports a standard like 12 inches in a foot, a measure of gold=1 dollar. That is not a private currency that is a natural currency. 

 If you want to get off narcotics you have to face the crash. Printing more dope for whatever creative reason you want to come up with is not going to make the inevitable correction (crash) any easier, it will only prolong the agony.

Ahem, narcotics?..... an analogy liking a narcotics addiction to an economic collapse is like calling an apple a horse. (the two obviously haven't the slightest thing to do with each other, specifically since a collapse would effect 300 Million people in this country alone, killing many of them)

you can look no further then Von Hayek's "De-Nationalization" of money theory if you think Austrian's do not support privatized currency. Of course, we've already been over all of this haven't we?... which leaves me further dumbfounded because it is on this very page if you simply scroll up.

If you support a collapse of the entire system, just as : How the 14th-Century Lombard Banks Created the Dark Age wiped out 1/3rd of Europes population, then you certainly deserve what you are asking for.
"Screw the population, let the system come down and let everyone drop dead" (Even though we of course, don't have to let everyone drop dead if we simply reform the system... )   Huh
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« Reply #426 on: June 27, 2009, 10:58:14 AM »

Quote
Ahem, narcotics?..... an analogy liking a narcotics addiction to an economic collapse is like calling an apple a horse. (the two obviously haven't the slightest thing to do with each other, specifically since a collapse would effect 300 Million people in this country alone, killing many of them)

  Look what our congress just passed yesterday. You want to let these people print money for projects they deem necessary? You have a lot of good ideas in certain shades of light, but im scared of that!

 At a certain level of addiction to certain narcotics the user can die both from the narcotic and lack of the narcotic. I feel this a good analogy for where we are at, caught between a rock and a hard place that is.

Quote
(Even though we of course, don't have to let everyone drop dead if we simply reform the system... )

 Well it didnt save the germans in the end did it?

 The Austrians do not think money should be privatized they think it should be standardized.  They believe the dollar should represent a weight of gold. That way neither private interests or govt interest can compromise the integrity of the currency.  
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« Reply #427 on: June 29, 2009, 01:29:47 PM »

I have nothing in common with someone who outright slanders what other people say , and continous to do so while the data is posted a multitude of times without watching the video that highlights the data because it's a quote "Strawman".....then when i am forced to go to the World Gold Council website and post the data because the troll repeatedely said the World Gold Supply was an "Annual Expansion Rate" when it was ALL THE GOLD IN THE WORLD / POPULATION , he was forced to admit he "Misunderstood me" when there was nothing to misunderstand in the first place! i posted the exact quote word for word.
You've demonstrated time and again that you DON'T know what a strawman is, then attack me for calling a spade a spade. You've attributed MANY arguments to austrians and then attacked them, without one citation or reference to austrian economics material saying something.

You continue to attack me for the same thing when the meaning of your bad quotations continues to change as evidenced below:
Furthermore, i quoted "How are we going to value the dollar?, "How much is 10 grams of gold worth in dollars?" "someone has to set a standard"
and *AGAIN* you've changed the meaning of your old post. Which standard should we set? How much is 10 grams worth in dollars? Or how many grams or grains make up a dollar?

Are we talking price fixing gold, or weight fixing the dollar? You can't seem to make up your mind the argument changes based on my counter argument.

You continue to attribute arguments to austrian economists without citation, you continue to post vague quotations and change the meaning based on the context of my argument to attack me. You continue to use ad populum arguments as if it gives any weight to your point of view. You continue to attack me with these tactics to avoid defending the factually innacurate statements you've made. <sarcasm>As anyone can see</sarcasm> Attacking me to keep me defending somehow makes your lie on lincoln's july 1864 limit magically true. You try to attack me for not watching the video when you posted the video to attack an uncited argument you CLAIMED your opposition was making. You've attacked gold in the 1800s when it was under the fractional reserve system and attributed the position you attacked to Austrian Economists, when they have made similar criticisms of fractional reserves. Again the context of your argument changes with what your attacking, because if we talk about friedman or keynes and their support for central banking gold would never come up, and you would use the same attacks against fractional reserve.

You refuse to defend your proposal because it's a house of cards. The greenback was an abject failure, by your own admission: http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=97109.msg601020#msg601020
Quote
Greenback critics argue that they were inflationary and mistakenly measure the inflation against gold, starting at equal to a gold dollar in early 1862, and falling to 36 cents against a gold dollar by mid 1864. So one gold dollar exchanged for nearly $2.50 in Greenbacks. That is often the whole of their analysis and it is very misleading. Actually the Greenbacks did drop against gold; first to 58 cents at the end of 1862, then back up to 82 cents in mid 1863 and then down to a brief low of 36 cents on July 16, 1864.

From that point they moved up steadily, averaging 39 cents for August; 45 cents for September; and 48 cents for October, 1864. They retreated to $0.44 in December, and averaged $0.68 for December 1865. From there they gradually rose to $1.00, at par with gold in December 1878. Greenbacks became freely convertible into gold, dollar for dollar, in January 1879
you then claim,
Quote
Economists mistakenly argue that it was only because the Greenbacks were eventually made convertible into gold by law, that made them hold and increase their value. However, that law was a hard fought political struggle, dependent on the 1868 presidential election. The battle could have gone either way and the actual "resumption" law could not get passed by Congress until 1874, for implementation in 1879. This could not have kept the Greenback from further declines, and start moving it upward back in mid-1864.

What did occur in July 1864 was that our government put a limit of $450 million on the Greenbacks and from that month they started rising (i.e. gold began falling in terms of Greenbacks)....
But refuse to say what happened in july 1864 that allegedly put this limit? I already pointed out, that the greenback was printed in 3, 150M$ batches with the passing of 3 seperate legal tender acts in Feb of 1862, July of 1862, and march of 1863. Of course, this is the period of rapidly fluctating prices, and it wasn't till 1879 that they became stable, 16 years after their final printing.

This contradicts your argument that we can print money and remove the effects the inflation has on the economy by spending it on infrastructure. You make no mention of how the subsequent infrastructure was funded between 1863 and 1879 when the value finally recovered. No greenbacks were printed but railrows both private and publicly funded expanded alot. A fact that also contradicts your proposal that we can continue to print based on population growth.

You can't defend your proposal because it's an error laden hodgepodge of copy pastes that you don't understand nor have fact checked. You're only defense is to attribute uncited arguments to austrians and attack me with more quotations, and changing the meaning. You even attacked me with murray rothbards own monetary proposal that you didn't even read, you just copy pasted sentences.

You can't defend your proposals or your copy pastes because you don't understand them. What you're proposing the same thing as fractional reserve, without reserves.

You've even claimed that gold has no intrinsic value. You can't substantiate ANY of your claims, and continue to rely on attacking me and straw men arguments attributed to austrians in hopes that it will make YOUR own errors disappear. I'm not credible therefore lincoln DID put a limit on the greenback in 1864.

as anyone can see you don't have a leg to stand on and can only attack confuse and deny. You'll no doubt copy paste your troll macro, and or your fruedian projection macro, and accuse me of derailing, because it's derailing if anyone but you posts about the greenback.
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« Reply #428 on: July 01, 2009, 04:31:57 PM »

"What you're proposing the same thing as fractional reserve, without reserves."

Spot on, and, like Obama's people, they are saying that it would be great, if only their pimp daddy was running the show. But Jack, listen, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and then your opposition gets into power. Its all nonsense.

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« Reply #429 on: October 07, 2009, 12:17:15 PM »

Bernanke's Great Fib - The "Gold Standard" and the Great Depression
By Jake Towne
Published 10/07/09

 
The claim that the "gold standard" caused or worsened the Great Depression debunked.


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php


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« Reply #430 on: November 01, 2009, 08:28:51 AM »

Bernanke's Great Fib - The "Gold Standard" and the Great Depression
By Jake Towne
Published 10/07/09

 
The claim that the "gold standard" caused or worsened the Great Depression debunked.


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php




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« Reply #431 on: November 01, 2009, 08:48:29 AM »

Bernanke's Great Fib - The "Gold Standard" and the Great Depression
By Jake Towne
Published 10/07/09

 
The claim that the "gold standard" caused or worsened the Great Depression debunked.


http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=251

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« Reply #432 on: November 01, 2009, 08:54:53 AM »

Gold is not "The Answer"
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« Reply #433 on: November 01, 2009, 09:27:26 AM »

Gold is not "The Answer"

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« Reply #434 on: November 01, 2009, 11:57:54 AM »

Gold is not "The Answer"

What question are you attempting to answer? If it is, protect your assets, then gold is the answer. If it is to save your soul, then of course, gold won't give you good morals. Here, a bit from Ayn Rand's Altlas Shrugged:



http://api.ning.com/files/nDvK*Zn9WVPm4tojIRn5a002AQJvhXGIFvs1eZ0McZ8ryHZBA4BING-C*x2scj2qXCbmEF2tKTN9A8nXw8V2JoqVEFk3fHSq/AtlasShrugged.pdf



Standing unnoticed on the edge of the group, Rearden heard a woman, who
had large diamond earrings and a flabby, nervous face, ask tensely, "Senior
d'Anconia, what do you think is going to happen to the world?"

"Just exactly what it deserves,"

"Oh, how cruel!"

"Don't you believe in the operation of the moral law, madame?"
Francisco asked gravely. "I do."

Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made
some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the
root of all evil—and he's the typical product of money."

Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw
Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco
d'Anconia.

"Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of
exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to
produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish
to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money
is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the
looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the
men who produce.

Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the
conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others.
It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean
of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in
your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of
paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor—your claim upon the
energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that
somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that
moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an
electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular
effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the
knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try
to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions—and you'll learn
that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth
that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak?
What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth
is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who
invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made
by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of
the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made— before it can be looted or mooched—made by the effort of every honest man,
each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he
can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will.
Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his
effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except
the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in
return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which
they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals
except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money
demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not
for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss—the recognition that
they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery—that
you must offer them values, not wounds—that the common bond among men is not
the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods.

"Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but
your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they
offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade—with
reason, not force, as their final arbiter—it is the best product that wins,
the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability—and the
degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the
code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider
evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will
not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the
satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires.
Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of
causality—the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the
mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what
he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the
knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if
he's evaded the choke of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for
the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The
man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with
his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his
inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds
come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man
may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth—the man who
would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to
his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him.
But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he
corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and
you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been
distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one,
would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living
power that dies without its root. Money will not serve the mind that cannot
match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the
source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the
source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money
by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to
fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering
your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so,
then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then
all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not
an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil.
Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil,
because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your
hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the
cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it
will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in
matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil?
To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know
and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you,
and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men.
It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in
proclaiming his hatred of money—and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers
of money are willing to work for it.
They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns
money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil.
That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men
live together on earth and need means to deal with one another—
their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or
to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no
moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as
they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich—will not remain rich
for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under
rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who
begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to
relieve him of the guilt— and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard—the men who
live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of
their looted money—the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral
society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you
against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-
by-law—men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims—then money
becomes its creators' avenger.

Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a
law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who
get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at
production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the
standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society
vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money.
Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is
done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to
produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you
see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when
you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws
don't protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see
corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know
that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not
compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality.
It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for
money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence.
Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary
setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth
produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun
aimed at those who are expected to "produce it. Paper is a check drawn by
legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the
victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to
remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the
purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce,
when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is
destroying the world?' You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest
productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while
you're damning its life-blood—-money. You look upon money as the savages did
before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of
your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of
one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the
same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned,
defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you
mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was
produced by the labor of slaves—slaves who repeated the motions once
discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as
production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was
little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and
starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as
aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the
producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers—as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in
history, a country of money—and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to
pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom,
production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set
free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and
instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the
greatest worker, the highest type of human being—the self-made man—the
American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would
choose—because it contains all the others—the fact that they were the people
who created the phrase 'to make money.’ No other language or nation had ever
used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static
quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a
favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created.
The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted
cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you
to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity
as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your
magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the
labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who
simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the
power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide—as, I think,
he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask
for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal
with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns—or
dollars. Take your choice—there is no other—and your time is running out."
Francisco had not glanced at Rearden once while speaking; but the moment
he finished, his eyes went straight to Rearden's face. Rearden stood

motionless, seeing nothing but Francisco d'Anconia across the moving figures
and angry voices between them.
There were people who had listened, but now hurried away, and people who
said, "It's horrible!"—"It's not true!"—"How vicious and selfish!"—saying it
loudly and guardedly at once, as if wishing that their neighbors would hear
them, but hoping that Francisco would not.

"Senor d'Anconia," declared the woman with the earrings, "I don't agree
with you!"

"If you can refute a single sentence I uttered, madame, I shall hear it
gratefully."

"Oh, I can't answer you. I don't have any answers, my mind doesn't work
that way, but I don't feel that you're right, so I know that you're wrong."

"How do you know it?"

"I feel it. I don't go by my head, but by my heart. You might be good at
logic, but you're heartless."

"Madame, when we'll see men dying of starvation around us, your heart
won't be of any earthly use to save them. And I'm heartless enough to say
that when you'll scream, 'But I didn't know it!'—you will not be forgiven."
The woman turned away, a shudder running through the flesh of her cheeks
and through the angry tremor of her voice: "Well, it's certainly a funny way
to talk at a party!"
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« Reply #435 on: November 01, 2009, 12:43:29 PM »

Gold is not "The Answer"


It may not be the answer but we know the elites are hording it.  Our money needs to be backed up by something tangible because when is printed out of thin air we wind up in the predicament we are currently facing with hyperinflation or a deflationary depression.

There needs to be standards set globally, i.e., it could be rocks, pearls, coke bottles, but a standard needs to be set in order to have competitive trading.

Gold happens to be what most people have chosen because it's value never really goes down.
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« Reply #436 on: November 01, 2009, 12:55:04 PM »

What about in the Money Masters though how they say that the international bankers actually first pushed the Americans to go to the gold standard when they were printing their own money? Has anyone seen that?

The people of America used gold prior to the gold standard. The Gold Standard was a government cartel over the issuance of gold money. That cartel agreement allowed them to debase it. It is the monopoly over money making that is the issue, not the money itself.

The trick with money, is that it is a commodity, and that like any other commodity, it must be created and purchased, on a free market, without government cartel intervention.

The thing about money that must be reformed, from the free market perspective, is that governments cannot run it as a cartel, via the treasury, or via the central bank. When a cartel controls the money supply, and they detach it from real sources of value, like bronze, silver and gold, then they gain the power to just print it. This is THEFT. Money is then printed up by government, then banks and corporations connected to the central bank, to buy up all the capital in the economy. In IT, for example, we should have hundreds of thousands of small cottage industry firms producing hardware and software, but Microsoft, via its corporate bank proxies, bought it all up. So now, to compete with the big boys, you can't because all the capital has been STOLEN, and the vertically integrated industries have lobbied for laws to block new entrants.

The trick to understanding money, is to see it as if it were like any other commodity. Money is a commodity that is traded for its value as a medium of exchange. Like, inflation and printing money is the same as cutting milk with water, or injecting water into beef to make it look like a bigger steak!! You wouldn't do it, so why do it to money?! And, why have a monopoly on money production, if you think that a monopoly on beef, oil, electricity production, or anything else is silly!!

Food is the biggest area like this. The dairy industry, like much of other farming, has been vertically integrated into just a handful of dairies, with their products forced into a wholesale market that is controlled by the very banks that funded the vertical integration of the industry. Dairy products are forced into this global commodity market by banning farmers from selling raw, unpasteurized milk to local customers. But regulations like this occur at every level of society. Banks and government have debased the value of money by paper and digital money printing, by well over 98% now in the last 100yrs. I am attempting to campaign on this issue at my Campaign4RealMilk, hope you can join!! http://www.meetup.com...

This groth in the money supply equals the growth of government in our lives (and overseas with wars), plus, it represents growth of Tesco's, et al. So, from this perspective , all of that growth is the result of theft from the global government/banking cartel. Essentially, its all run by just one or two central banking groups. So, our corporatist and big government economy is run by just one corporation, because money only flows to those who agree with the politics of those who control the money supply.


At the early 1800's, government, via fixing the price of silver to gold, precipitated a shortage of small change, because silver was becoming more valuable, so was being sold abroad for gold. This monetary failure, bought about by government, led to a thriving industry in local money. Bakeries would have their own tokens, as would pubs and greengrocers, and some people started producing pure private currencies. This period produced some of the best coins ever produced in Britain, and industry thrived. Via competing private currencies, people could choose the soundest available. Anybody who abused their position would find people shunning their private currency. Finally, a chap decided to mint a gold coin, and the Royal Mint, scared, decided to ban all private money. An economic depression ensued. So, anyway, if you are interested in that, check out this podcast, and there is an accompanying book on the issue.

Libertarian coinage: http://lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2009-03-18_106_libertarian_coinage.mp3
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« Reply #437 on: November 01, 2009, 02:34:41 PM »

It may not be the answer but we know the elites are hording it.  Our money needs to be backed up by something tangible because when is printed out of thin air we wind up in the predicament we are currently facing with hyperinflation or a deflationary depression.

There needs to be standards set globally, i.e., it could be rocks, pearls, coke bottles, but a standard needs to be set in order to have competitive trading.

Gold happens to be what most people have chosen because it's value never really goes down.


Gold is good to protect personal savings.

 Yes the old money from the kings of rome has too much effect on our politics. This is why I think any assets existing out side of the CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC should be subject to regulation in so much as they pertain to the security of the republic.
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"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression." Qur'an 5:2
At the heart of that Western freedom and democracy is the belief that the individual man, the child of God, is the touchstone of value..." -RFK
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