Complete reversal: Obama considering ‘indefinite detention’ for Gitmo prisoners

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Offline TheHouseMan

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http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/obama-considering-indefinite-detention-for-gitmo-prisoners/?ref=12kjiu

Obama considering 'indefinite detention' for Gitmo prisoners



President Barack Obama appears to be drifting to the right of former President George W. Bush on detainee policy.

The Wall Street Journal reports:

"Sen. Lindsay Graham (R., S.C.), who met this week with White House Counsel Greg Craig to discuss the administration's plans, said among the proposals being studied is seeking authority for indefinite detentions, with the imprimatur of some type of national-security court.

Sen. Graham said he wants to work with the administration to pass legislation to increase judicial oversight of military commissions, but noted the legal difficulties that would arise.

"This is a difficult question. How do you hold someone in prison without a trial indefinitely?" Sen. Graham said."

An interesting question indeed.

It leaves this reporter wondering why a Republican senator is asking it when a Democratic president was elected to ensure that question, and others like it, would never have be asked again.

-------------

So much for closing Guantanamo, eh, Barack?

You start your term in office saying that you have "already done" all of these things you promised, but now -- months after anyone cares -- you suddenly say, "Nope. Sorry. I'm not going to do that anymore". And the media will not report on this.

Offline RickDaniels

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gitmo is practically a resort  those detainees are lucky. 

It's like a permanent "staycation"

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105566.0
“As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”  Donald Rumsfield

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Offline Vipercat

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gitmo is practically a resort  those detainees are lucky. 

It's like a permanent "staycation"

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=105566.0
Even if this is true, gitmo is nothing more than a photo op to distract the mainstream media and human rights organizations from the countless secret prisons and massive torture going on around the world to mainly innocent citizens that were kidnapped from around the world and never charged with a crime and sometimes forced to confess to crimes they never commited, or just released. What is not seen is so much more horrible than what the media and the government allows us to see.

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Gitmo is practically a resort, those detainees are lucky.  It's like a permanent "staycation"

I know you're being facetious here because (under proposed Terror Laws) any member of your family, anyone's family, can suddenly find themselves in Gitmo, or its like. You'd be less inclined to be so tolerant of such a civil rights abuse then, I'm sure.

Really, people, stop defending what THE LAW is doing to you, this isn't some f**king comic you can buy off the shelves. It's your lives. You history. Your heritage.

Offline Lilly Bighorn

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i seriously doubt that gitmo is like a resort or a staycation. but i was not aware that u.s. citizens arrested on american soil could be shipped to gitmo. is this true? doesn't sound correct.
Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

Offline Jackson Holly

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TPTB can NOT let the 'detainees' anywhere near anything but some total KANGAROO COURT ... too much at stake ... anyone of them could SPILL THE BEANS - NATIONAL security really means PERSONAL security for the NWO shills.

Ditto with anyone involved with 911, the ENDLESS WAR and the GESTAPO DHS. We will never see anyone in a real court of law, being asked real questions under OATH.
St. Augustine: “The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it.
Let it loose; it will defend itself."

Offline darsie

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Story after story like this proves that there's no difference between Bush and Obama.

They're both controlled players.

They don't want to free the prisoners because they're extremely fearful of what these prisoners will disclose about their shocking - inhumane - and degrading treatment -

As simple as that. They will never be released.

(Webster Tarpley you were right after all.)

Offline darsie

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I know you're being facetious here because (under proposed Terror Laws) any member of your family, anyone's family, can suddenly find themselves in Gitmo, or its like. You'd be less inclined to be so tolerant of such a civil rights abuse then, I'm sure.

Really, people, stop defending what THE LAW is doing to you, this isn't some f**king comic you can buy off the shelves. It's your lives. You history. Your heritage.

The people will get the friggin message eventually when it personally affects them.

Sooner - rather than later - the way it's goin' now.

Offline RickDaniels

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yes I was being facetious. 

I found the senators statement of tropical breezes ludicrous

step 2 in closing down and open society as described by naomi wolf

 Create a gulag

Once you have got everyone scared, the next step is to create a prison system outside the rule of law (as Bush put it, he wanted the American detention centre at Guantánamo Bay to be situated in legal "outer space") - where torture takes place.

At first, the people who are sent there are seen by citizens as outsiders: troublemakers, spies, "enemies of the people" or "criminals". Initially, citizens tend to support the secret prison system; it makes them feel safer and they do not identify with the prisoners. But soon enough, civil society leaders - opposition members, labour activists, clergy and journalists - are arrested and sent there as well.
“As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”  Donald Rumsfield

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Offline darsie

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yes I was being facetious. 

I found the senators statement of tropical breezes ludicrous

step 2 in closing down and open society as described by naomi wolf

 Create a gulag

Once you have got everyone scared, the next step is to create a prison system outside the rule of law (as Bush put it, he wanted the American detention centre at Guantánamo Bay to be situated in legal "outer space") - where torture takes place.

At first, the people who are sent there are seen by citizens as outsiders: troublemakers, spies, "enemies of the people" or "criminals". Initially, citizens tend to support the secret prison system; it makes them feel safer and they do not identify with the prisoners. But soon enough, civil society leaders - opposition members, labour activists, clergy and journalists - are arrested and sent there as well.

Yes - but the majority don't reaslise that yet.

Offline RickDaniels

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Yes - but the majority don't reaslise that yet.

true that
“As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”  Donald Rumsfield

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Offline Jackson Holly

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Quote
They don't want to free the prisoners because they're extremely fearful of what these prisoners will disclose about their shocking - inhumane - and degrading treatment -

This is true, details of the torture could be bad PR ... but the world already KNOWS ... just look at the Abu Ghraib pictures for one thing.

No, the, ... is waterboarding really torture? "debate" ... is ALL smokescreen ... they can NOT have lawyers poking around in ANYTHING to do with real facts concerning 911/War-on-Terra.

The same with all the False Flag/Black Ops ... AVOID the courtroom at all costs!



St. Augustine: “The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it.
Let it loose; it will defend itself."

Offline Dig

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Gitmo is a terrorist training camp. It always has been. It was set up to create MK Ultra patsy controlled 'terrorists' for the New World Order.  Supposedly 61 of the former Gitmo prisoners are engaged in worldwide terrorist activities.  Yemen and Saudi Arabia (who also create terrorist pasties like the 9/11 hijackers) are supposedly the next stop for 100-200 of these puppets. A few of these guys committed suicide ayear or two ago and all of the congressmen that have been supporting this terrorist training camp got so pissed off that over 4 years of mind control training and millions of dollars went to waste because they killed themselves.  Why else would neo-con congressmen get pissed off that suppoesed 'terrorists' killed themselves? Wouldn't that be a good thing since they were never going to see a court of law ad their brains were fried from torture anyway? They were pissed because each prisoner that enters Gitmo is evaluated for terrorist conditioning by CACI/Kroll/Mossad/MI6/CIA/etc. Then if found to be mind control worthy they are initiated into programming.  This programming is very expensive and if the targets kill themselves, it is a big let down for the psycopaths running the program. Then they have to go into another village and grab a few more patsies for 're-education'.

GITMO IS A TERRORIST TRAINING FACILITY PREPPING FOR THE NEXT FALSE FLAG ATTACKS.

Every day it is open is an abomination of the human spirit. People are finally seeing that the NWO is on a timeline and Obama and McCain were not running for POTUS, they were running for lead puppet to lie to Americans while their country is destroyed in the background. The reason that the NWO chose Obama over McCain for this position is because Obama is a better liar.

The agenda between the two concerning everything...healthcare, foreign policy, torture, rendition, Gitmo, taxation, federal reserve, etc. was always identical. There is absolutely no noticable difference in the policies.  There was only differences in how the same policy was sold to the American people. Obama is simply a better used car salesman selling the same lemons as McCain was. They work for the same exact used car lot and the products are the same.

This is why I am finally waking up to what Tarpley warned us about.  I could not believe he was right about McCain being better than Obama, but if you understand that they are working at the same car lot, then you want the worst salesman to close the least amount of deals.  Of course the trump card could be that McCain is so psycopathic that he might have held the prospective buyers at gunpoint to purchase the lemons since his sales skills are so utterly pathetic.
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately

Offline Sasha

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This is a story waiting to go viral. 

Anyone wanna help it out?
Morality is contraband in war.
- Mahatma Gandhi

Offline tepid

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I am going to play a little devil's advocate here.  I believe that one the biggest weapons in politics is to have some dirt on other people.  Is this a threat from Obama to Bush and company and Obama has them right where he wants them?  I didn't vote for Obama and I don't trust the guy.  I am just trying to look at this from all angles. If this was a true power struggle Obama could declare checkmate.

Offline Monkeypox

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Thank God for the "change".
War Is Peace - Freedom Is Slavery - Ignorance Is Strength


"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."

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Offline RickDaniels

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Obama To Revive Military Tribunals For Gitmo Detainees, With More Rights

LARA JAKES

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama will restart Bush-era military tribunals for a small number of Guantanamo detainees, reviving a fiercely disputed trial system he once denounced but with new legal protections for terror suspects, U.S. officials said Thursday.

Obama suspended the tribunals within hours of taking office in January, ordering a review but stopping short of abandoning President George W. Bush's strategy of prosecuting suspected terrorists.

The military trials will remain frozen for another four months as the administration adjusts the legal system that is expected to try fewer than 20 of the 241 detainees at the U.S. naval detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Thirteen detainees _ including five charged with helping orchestrate the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks _ are already in the tribunal system.

The changes to the system were to be announced Friday. Two senior administration officials outlined several of the rules changes, which will be carried out by executive authority, to The Associated Press on Thursday night. They include:

_Restrictions on hearsay evidence that can be used in court against the detainees.

_A ban on all evidence obtained through cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. This would include statements given from detainees who were subjected to waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning.

_Giving detainees greater leeway in choosing their own military counsel.

_Protecting detainees who refuse to testify from legal sanctions or other court prejudices.
“As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”  Donald Rumsfield

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Offline Sasha

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Obama To Revive Military Tribunals For Gitmo Detainees, With More Rights

LARA JAKES

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama will restart Bush-era military tribunals for a small number of Guantanamo detainees, reviving a fiercely disputed trial system he once denounced but with new legal protections for terror suspects, U.S. officials said Thursday.

Obama suspended the tribunals within hours of taking office in January, ordering a review but stopping short of abandoning President George W. Bush's strategy of prosecuting suspected terrorists.

The military trials will remain frozen for another four months as the administration adjusts the legal system that is expected to try fewer than 20 of the 241 detainees at the U.S. naval detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Thirteen detainees _ including five charged with helping orchestrate the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks _ are already in the tribunal system.

The changes to the system were to be announced Friday. Two senior administration officials outlined several of the rules changes, which will be carried out by executive authority, to The Associated Press on Thursday night. They include:

_Restrictions on hearsay evidence that can be used in court against the detainees.

_A ban on all evidence obtained through cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. This would include statements given from detainees who were subjected to waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning.

_Giving detainees greater leeway in choosing their own military counsel.

_Protecting detainees who refuse to testify from legal sanctions or other court prejudices.

As just as that sounds for the 20, the assertion that 5 of them are 9/11 conspirators is of great interest,...

What's glaring missing from this article is the focus on the fact that 221 other people are being denied the right to challenge their accusers and considering Gitmo's track record of imprisoning innocents, I'd imagine very few of the 221 had any ties to the Taliban or Al CIA'da or Saddam or anyone other than theirown particular tribal and familial groups.

i.e.-
                                      How Afghan goat herders got sent to Gitmo

Sunday,  June 15, 2008 3:38 AM
McCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS
http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2008/06/15/detainees_side_0615.ART_ART_06-15-08_A4_HNAGCSB.html?sid=101

How did the United States come to hold so many farmers and goat herders among the real terrorists at Guantanamo? Among the reasons:

• After conceding control of the country to U.S.-backed Afghan forces in late 2001, top Taliban and al-Qaida leaders escaped to Pakistan, leaving the battlefield filled with ragtag groups of volunteers and conscripts who knew nothing about global terrorism.

• The majority of the detainees taken to Guantanamo came into U.S. custody indirectly, from Afghan troops, warlords, mercenaries and Pakistani police who often were paid cash by the number and alleged importance of the men they handed over. Foot soldiers brought in hundreds of dollars, but commanders were worth thousands. Because of the bounties -- advertised in fliers that U.S. planes dropped across Afghanistan in late 2001 -- there was financial incentive for locals to lie about the detainees' backgrounds. Only 33 percent of the former detainees, 22 out of 66, whom McClatchy interviewed were detained initially by U.S. forces. Of those 22, 17 were Afghans who'd been captured around mid-2002 or later as part of the peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan, a fight that had more to do with counterinsurgency than terrorism.

• U.S. soldiers and interrogators were susceptible to false reports passed along by informants and officials looking to settle old grudges in Afghanistan, a nation that had experienced more than two decades of occupation and civil war before U.S. troops arrived. This meant that Americans were likely to arrest Afghans who had no significant connections to militant groups. For example, of those 17 Afghans whom the U.S. captured in mid-2002 or later, at least 12 of them were innocent of the allegations against them, according to interviews with Afghan intelligence and security officials.

• Detainees at Guantanamo had no legal venue in which to challenge their detentions. The only mechanism set up to evaluate their status, an internal tribunal in the late summer of 2004, rested on the decisions of rotating panels of three U.S. military officers. The tribunals made little effort to find witnesses who weren't present at Guantanamo, and detainees were in no position to challenge the allegations against them.
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Offline Geolibertarian

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http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/obama-considering-indefinite-detention-for-gitmo-prisoners/?ref=12kjiu

Obama considering 'indefinite detention' for Gitmo prisoners

President Barack Obama appears to be drifting to the right of former President George W. Bush on detainee policy.

Say it with me, Obama cultists: "Chaaaange!"

::)
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Offline oyashango

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Say it with me, Obama cultists: "Chaaaange!"

::)

This is the same president that ran on "change we can believe," and no more of the "same bush policies."
What a monster he is proving to be. We are in trouble, and it hasn't been one year yet.

Offline Aerioch

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"That's Not Change!  It is More of the Same!"
- Joe "If I was Jew, then I would be a Zionist. I am a Zionist. You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Biden.

Joe Biden No Change, More of the Same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q3cCkC8oOM

Pay attention to the speech then during the election, and compare that to the policy of today... it isn't change.

Why is their game plan no different that the Bush Administrations? Because to the real power being rests in the hands of those within the "Continuity of Government" structure.

Quote
United States
Main article: Continuity of Operations Plan

    * Each facility is counterpart to its peacetime equivalent.
          o Site R (Raven Rock) → The Pentagon (Department of Defense)
          o Mount Weather → Federal Emergency Management Agency
          o Camp David → Executive Office of the President
          o Unknown → United States Congress (The Greenbrier was to be used until 1992, when it was decommissioned)
          o Cheyenne Mountain → North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD)
          o United States Strategic Command Center (Offutt Air Force Base) → Strategic Air Command
    * Former site:
          o National Audio-Visual Conservation Center (Mount Pony) → Department of Treasury/Federal Reserve (sold off in 1997 to the National Audiovisual Conservation Center)
    * Also, mobile systems are used for additional command and control.
          o E-4, EC-135, and E-6 are all airborne command centers.
          o Air Force One is the term for any USAF plane the President of the United States travels on. However, the term normally refers to a Boeing VC-25A the President normally uses. While the VC-25A is equipped with numerous systems to ensure its survival, in an emergency, it would be recommended that he use the National Airborne Operations Center, a Boeing E-4 specially built to serve as a survivable mobile command post. The Secretary of Defense may also use it, as a member of the National Command Authority. It is also possible that the President would authorize the Vice President to use it, depending on the circumstances.
          o An E-6 Mercury, codenamed Looking Glass, is USSTRATCOM's Airborne Command Post, designed to take over in case NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain Operations Center is destroyed or incapable of communicating with strategic forces.
          o NORAD owns and operates a mobile vehicular command center
    * National Program Office was established as a shadow government by the Reagan administration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_of_Government


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Offline chris jones

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I doubt that Gitmo is a resort area. In fact, if you beleive it to be there are many things you can do to go there and have a nice stay, an indefintie one.

Obama, has he done one FN thing that he declared he would before he gained the presidency. ONE. Has he fullfilled one promise??

Thee is no end to their perversity, lies, deceptions, genocide, warmongering, moneygrubbing, powersucking, sociopathic, mindbent, and evil FK ways.

We and our nation  have been raped, looked down upon as moronic vermen, serfs, peons, mindless flagwaving, blind patriotic mind controlled masses to be manipulated.

When is enough enough. The doors to the white house should have been ripped off, and the halls of congress vacated.
Our declaration if independence is now the declaration of dependence on the whims and plans of the might in Gov and the peirs.
NO fear, UH UH,steady and controlled  rage is much easier on the nervous system and relieves stress, beleive it or not. Let the adrenalin flow.


Offline chrsswtzr

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I read all your comments, and I agree the most with that of GITMO being a 'terrorist training camp' with MKULTRA mind control definitely going on which I've suggested FOR YEARS now to friends and loved ones who immediately dismiss my claims as nuts or crazy. I also agree that these people WILL NEVER get their day in any real court, for fear of what might be said under oath, which I also suggested to friends and loved ones who said "Of course they'll be prosecuted in a court of law!"  :-\ I wish people would wake up to the GRAVITY of this BASE CAMP, if you will, for the molding and programming of future '9/11 hijackers' and future 'unabombers' coming to a neighborhood near you.... This is real, and this isn't going away...

Obama followers, eat your hearts out...

Offline trailhound

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Hey Obama i think Jesse Ventura would like to have a word with you outside 8)

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Offline Georgiacopguy

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GITMO is only the public face for the real secret prisons, it's the one they polish up all nice and pretty and show to the media;
"See how well we treat our prisoners?"
"Aren't they well fed?"
"Do you notice all the clean linens and the prayer rugs?"
The resistance starts here. Unfortunately, the entire thing is moving beyond the intellectual infowar. I vow I will not make an overt rush at violent authority, until authority makes it's violent rush at me and you. I will not falter, I will not die in this course. For that is how they win.

Offline Michal Ptacnik

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I am a law student so I would like to know one thing that is not quite so apparent from the news: Is that indefinite detention proposed for terrorists as in "MHS Anti-Terrorist Dictionary" or for real hard core extremists?

I've had it explained once that the Gitmo must be because the people in there would, at least most of them, be suicide bombers or other type of dangerous terrorists but that there is not enough legal material to charge them with so the US invents the term "Enemy Combatant" and since there is no real international law attached to it, builds the Gitmo.

While the above practice is certainly morally questionable, I don't think there are no real extremists in the world, moslems who simply believe that it is the will of 'Allah to murder infidels or people who are patriots like you, but patriots of the "wrong" country from your point of view and want to fight for their freedom with bombs and guns.

If the laws were only for these guys, well, I could live with that. But if it is for your own domestic "terrorists" as well...

So how is it?

Offline Georgiacopguy

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Excellent point Michal...
The resistance starts here. Unfortunately, the entire thing is moving beyond the intellectual infowar. I vow I will not make an overt rush at violent authority, until authority makes it's violent rush at me and you. I will not falter, I will not die in this course. For that is how they win.